Mountaineer Pick Six

[mountainman]

Races 5-10..... starts March 1st
have no other details yet

[tanner12oz]

hmmm should be interesting...i cant imagine they get much in the pool

[Stillriledup]

Why no dime supers at Mtn? I dont even think they have a late pick 4 either.

[Cubbymac26]

i can see it already on that plain as day inhouse screen a 3 day carryover of 2276 :lol:

[lamboguy]

i can see it already on that plain as day inhouse screen a 3 day carryover of 2276 :lol:its at least something new that they are trying out, are they making a guarantee to get the bet started like nyra? a $25k guarantee should help to get the ball rolling. i would highly doubt that it would cost them more than $20k twice a year and might generate $4million in handle for the year and more interest in the venue.

[mountainman]

i can see it already on that plain as day inhouse screen a 3 day carryover of 2276 :lol:

I think our avg handle is somewhere around $1.25 million a day. And that's bad for a track that distributes less than 130k per card on purses? In THIS economy?? Gimme a break dude.

[DeanT]

50 cent supers this year as well Mark?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Not sure what the minimum of the pick 6 is.
On 9 race cards, the pick 6 begins in the fourth race.

They are going to have 50 cent supers this year according to the info I got. You have to bet a minimum $2.

[toetoe]

I recommend a base of $1. :)

[lamboguy]

I recommend a base of $1. :)
you know that racetracks used to have $5 exacta's and $3 trifecta's befor the irs started with the 600-1 signer's and witholdings of tickets over$1000.

if they could get ride of the tax witholdings they would do more business without having to readjust amounts. more business would mean more revenues for the irs as well.

[Backstretch Pirate]

Great addition in the pick 6, but why no pick 4, and more pick 3's?

[mountainman]

50 cent supers this year as well Mark?

I spoke just briefly with Rosemary Williams, mnr's director of racing, the other day. I think she said 10 cent supers are coming.

[Steve 'StatMan']

I'm glad to see them add the Pick 6 and Supers. I do hope there are some more Pick 3's coming, or rolling doubles.

Pick 6's are a strange animal handlewise. Some tracks they do great, but the best are obviously SoCal & NYRA. But mid-sized tracks often struggle with carryovers. Even a day track like Hawthorne, with handles of 1.5mil to 3.0mil, have troubles getting a lot of activity in it. The new meet's 5 day carryover is only $1,345. Of course, they do have a Place Pick 9 as well. Carryover is at $674.92, and that might be a 5-day as well, I haven't followed that one very closely. Haw does better with their Early and Late Pick 4, and allows Carryovers for both of those as well, which happen infrequently, and the handle is defintely better on their Pick 4.

Looking forward to the MNR meet, glad you guys are back soon!

[Stillriledup]

The problem with a pick 6 at a track like this is that some players don't understand that they won't be winning jackpot type payoffs. The opening pick 6 might have a handle of like 2 grand.....and it will take days and maybe a week to get the carryover up to a point where its worth taking a shot. I guess you need SOME people who don't know this in order to get the pool off and running at a couple of grand. But, i guess you can't coddle every bettor and explain to them that a pick 6 with 0 carryover at a place like Mountaineer would be the worst bet you could ever possibly make in your life.

[Robert Goren]

you know that racetracks used to have $5 exacta's and $3 trifecta's befor the irs started with the 600-1 signer's and witholdings of tickets over$1000.

if they could get ride of the tax witholdings they would do more business without having to readjust amounts. more business would mean more revenues for the irs as well. The IRS had 299-1 signers with a ticket worth at least $600 long before there were exactas and trifectas. Yes, I am that old, but not old enough to remember when they did not have a daily double.

[MAGICHORSEMAN]

The track needs a pick 4 , a grand slam bet like NYRA, and more pick 3's.

But does any really think this track would listen to its customers and fans?

The pick 6 will always be a bad bet for Mountaineer fans.

[castaway01]

I'm glad to see them add the Pick 6 and Supers. I do hope there are some more Pick 3's coming, or rolling doubles.

Pick 6's are a strange animal handlewise. Some tracks they do great, but the best are obviously SoCal & NYRA. But mid-sized tracks often struggle with carryovers. Even a day track like Hawthorne, with handles of 1.5mil to 3.0mil, have troubles getting a lot of activity in it. The new meet's 5 day carryover is only $1,345. Of course, they do have a Place Pick 9 as well. Carryover is at $674.92, and that might be a 5-day as well, I haven't followed that one very closely. Haw does better with their Early and Late Pick 4, and allows Carryovers for both of those as well, which happen infrequently, and the handle is defintely better on their Pick 4.

Looking forward to the MNR meet, glad you guys are back soon!

I think a good idea for these tracks that get $1000 a day in Pick 6 wagers would be to offer some seed money to start it out. Have the track put $10,000 in the Pick 6 pool so Pick 6 bettors around the country might at least notice the tracks offers a Pick 6. I know that's not a lot of money for a Pick 6, but I think the key is to get Pick 6 bettors thinking about that track as a place they should follow. Of course if the track only gets that same $1000 in handle they'll take a loss, but if that happens a few times then just drop the bet altogether. I think it would help to get the word out. If you get a couple days that no one hits and the $10,000 is now $50,000, it can take off from there. Mountaineer has big fields, so I could see a chance for some nice carryovers if they had the handle.

It's probably been tried and failed, but I don't play Pick Sixes so I don't know.

[Buddha]

I will take this first step towards a better wagering menu, but seriously, Mountaineer has been way behind the times when it has come to wagering. They have not changed the wagering menu in over 10 years. I for one, along with many simulcast bettors I assume, would love to see an expanded menu, including, but not limited to adding rolling pick 3s, rolling or at least more than 2 daily doubles, more superfectas, dime superfectas, pick 4 wagers.

The addition of the pick 6 will be nice, but as others said, it will probably start out really slow, but has the chance to go unhit for days with all the cheap races.

[michiken]

Since it has become a racino, Mountainer has too many chalk invaders and two horse races. etc.

Unless the quality of racing improves to what it used to be years ago, I can see this pick 6 paying $20 or less on many occasions.

[Buddha]

I will admit I am not as into Mountaineer racing as I once was, but I would think that 5 years ago there were more chalk invaders than there are now. Not as many KY trainers ship in as they used to and win at < $6. Not to say there aren't favorites winning, or anything like that, but I feel there are less invaders now than there were 5 years ago, or at least top notch invaders that win at >25%

[BombsAway Bob]

For Mountaineer to offer a $2 Pick-6 before offering a $.50 Pick-4 shows the "Jackpot" Slots mentality management is using. Maybe they can churn all that Pick-6 carryover money siphoned off on the few bettors left playing there?

[GlenninOhio]

I will admit I am not as into Mountaineer racing as I once was, but I would think that 5 years ago there were more chalk invaders than there are now. Not as many KY trainers ship in as they used to and win at < $6. Not to say there aren't favorites winning, or anything like that, but I feel there are less invaders now than there were 5 years ago, or at least top notch invaders that win at >25%

True. A lot of those KY shippers to MNR were running at the MSW and lifetime allowance conditions, and the combination of a major pop in racino-fueled Indiana purses at these conditions with MNR purses heading south has divererted a lot of potential MNR shippers to Indiana Downs and Hoosier (which are also shorter ships from KY tracks).

Also, though Presque Isle is a slightly longer ship for KY trainers, the pots are significantly higher at these conditions than those for MNR and this also has taken a toll on the MNR "chalk invaders".

That said, MNR runs from March to December, and some or all of these alternative venues are not available, particularly in March, April, November and December.

[post time]

I would bet the person making the betting menu at Mountaineer has never worked at another racetrack,or even been to another track,they are so far behind times when it comes to horse racing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think our avg handle is somewhere around $1.25 million a day. And that's bad for a track that distributes less than 130k per card on purses? In THIS economy?? Gimme a break dude.

Very respectable handle. MNR does a great job distributing their signal, imo. It will be tough drumming up Pick Six biz, though. It seems like only the NYRA and Cali tracks are very successful on that front. If you're affiliated with MNR, I hope you prove me wrong.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I would bet the person making the betting menu at Mountaineer has never worked at another racetrack,or even been to another track,they are so far behind times when it comes to horse racing.

How much did you want to bet on that?

[Stillriledup]

Very respectable handle. MNR does a great job distributing their signal, imo. It will be tough drumming up Pick Six biz, though. It seems like only the NYRA and Cali tracks are very successful on that front. If you're affiliated with MNR, I hope you prove me wrong.

He's the 'main man' at Mountaineer. Big Hoss.

[Saratoga_Mike]

He's the 'main man' at Mountaineer. Big Hoss.

Ted?

[mountainman]

Very respectable handle. MNR does a great job distributing their signal, imo. It will be tough drumming up Pick Six biz, though. It seems like only the NYRA and Cali tracks are very successful on that front. If you're affiliated with MNR, I hope you prove me wrong.

Mike, I'm Mnr's ast. racing secretary, and also cohost the handicapping show.

[mountainman]

He's the 'main man' at Mountaineer. Big Hoss.

The truth is Websters plans to put my picture next to the word 'peon' in its next edition. I'm VERY low on the Mnr food-chain.

[Cubbymac26]

I think our avg handle is somewhere around $1.25 million a day. And that's bad for a track that distributes less than 130k per card on purses? In THIS economy?? Gimme a break dude.

now see this is an example of taking a comment out of context what i said was i can see mnr having small pk6 carryovers that will come out to tiny numbers

then i get a reply like this like i dont no what im talking about what does purse structure and ave handle have to do with my post???? look at haw and other tracks with big handle that get piss for pk6 pool so learn what your talking about before u fire back a sarcastic post

im pretty sure u are affiliated with mnr and ill tell evrybody here im finished with that boat track..the track is one step above grade d dogs when was the last time anybody here seen a mnr shipper win anywhere during the mnr meet

they got no wagering menu worst in the country by far no dime supers 50cent tris 1 or 2 pick 3s no pk4s...tris always come back short as do exactas...

then u get the ave handle is 125000 well i got news for u northfield and yonkers blow that number out of the water

and its always bettor friendly having horses listed 4-5 in the morning line every race kills all value in pk3s and pk4s..wait theres no pk 4 :bang:

i dont bet much flats but they wont see my 150-300 a nite in exactas anymore

[Saratoga_Mike]

Mike, I'm Mnr's ast. racing secretary, and also cohost the handicapping show.

Oh, you're the guy on with the woman before each race. I know you. :)

I raced twice at MNR back in 2002. At that time, your $12,500 claimers were racing for $26,000. Since that time, it seems like the claiming ladder has narrowed to mostly $5k claimers and the purses have been hit (not your fault obviously). I really like your turf racing. Do you have lights for the turf course (I know Penn doesn't)? I'd love to see more turf racing, and I know those races usually fill well. On the Pick Six, I have one suggestion: if you have a maiden race with a bunch of firsters, place it first in the sequence or not in at all.

[mountainman]

Oh, you're the guy on with the woman before each race. I know you. :)

I raced twice at MNR back in 2002. At that time, your $12,500 claimers were racing for $26,000. Since that time, it seems like the claiming ladder has narrowed to mostly $5k claimers and the purses have been hit (not your fault obviously). I really like your turf racing. Do you have lights for the turf course (I know Penn doesn't)? I'd love to see more turf racing, and I know those races usually fill well. On the Pick Six, I have one suggestion: if you have a maiden race with a bunch of firsters, place it first in the sequence or not in at all.

True, our purses have dropped, and the landscape has changed. We're still proud of our program and strive to deliver the best product we can. Our grass course does have lights, but the riders object to carding turf after dark when the footing supposedly becomes slick with dew. Thanks for the suggestion concerning the sequence of pick 6 races. We try to do that even with pick 3's.

[Cubbymac26]

think about how much money would be in a 50cent pk 4 pool on a sunday or monday nite!! first four and last four of the nite...forget the pk6 just do a 50cent pk 4

[tcasolo]

Horrible idea for a PK6. It will be gone by fall. Look at the wagering options at the two WV tracks ( and I may not be 100% accurate, because even though I visit the simulcasting area at MNR practically every week, I NEVER wager on MNR.)

MNR has a couple of pk3's and supers and the early and late doubles.

CT has rolling doubles, rolling pk3's, supers every race (now 50cents), and 2 pk4's.

CT may be a bullring and have some low quality racing, but MNR certainly could do well just to duplicate their wagering menu.

[ENT222]

I personally think the mountain has a good wagering menu. I think there are too many possibilities of winners imo which would possibly defer some of the current players if there rolling pick 3's. I do however think a pick 4 should be offered. I will welcome a pick 6 but won't wager more than $32 on a good night. I've only been to the mountain once and absolutely enjoyed it yet I love night racing regardless where it is. Can't wait until Monday when they're back.

[Zaf]

IMHO, adding some more Pik 3's to the wagering menu would be a good move. :)

Z

[InsideThePylons-MW]

CT has rolling doubles, rolling pk3's, supers every race (now 50cents), and 2 pk4's.

CT may be a bullring and have some low quality racing, but MNR certainly could do well just to duplicate their wagering menu.

Sunday Feb 21 Charlestown

3rd race
P-3 pool 1764
DD pool 1591

4th race
DD pool 1183

5th race
P-3 pool 956
DD pool 1217

6th race
DD pool 935

7th race
p-3 pool 982
DD pool 1036

8th race
DD pool 915

9th race
p-3 pool 1129
p-4 pool 1665
DD pool 1848

Gotta love those rolling doubles and multiple P-x wagers

[rrpic6]

Ted?

That's very funny, whether you meant it to be or not.....at least he liked horseracing and its bettors. The new people running the show have a great disdain for the sport. Good thing it snowed so much this year...must have ruined their plans of putting slot machines on the track for Jan and Feb. Glad to see mountainman still has a job. Any truth to the rumor that Peter Berry is working at Outback Steakhouse to make ends meet?

RR

[post time]

That's very funny, whether you meant it to be or not.....at least he liked horseracing and its bettors. The new people running the show have a great disdain for the sport. Good thing it snowed so much this year...must have ruined their plans of putting slot machines on the track for Jan and Feb. Glad to see mountainman still has a job. Any truth to the rumor that Peter Berry is working at Outback Steakhouse to make ends meet?

RR
A great point.Must be why mountainman has two jobs,pay is behind times like betting menu.

[Peter Berry]

Any truth to the rumor that Peter Berry is working at Outback Steakhouse to make ends meet?

RR

More likely just around the corner at Vintage Estate!

[jeebus1083]

I agree that Mountaineer should have rolling P3s... making the wagering menu more exotic gives the player some options. I can't tell you how many P3s at MNR that I've passed on because the sequence looks too chalky. At least if the P3s are rolling, I can isolate a P3 sequence or two that may provide for some value.

[Relwob Owner]

The truth is Websters plans to put my picture next to the word 'peon' in its next edition. I'm VERY low on the Mnr food-chain.


MM,

I didnt know this was you. I really enjoy your commentary every night with your co host and I am a fan of MNR racing. Question-is it safe to say that Table Games can be seen to have had a negative impact on purses due to the lower amount that goes to the purses, as opposed to slots? I am not positive this is the case but have heard it and figured I would go to the expert. Seems to be a tough issue because table games differentiate the track from others but by doing so, can be seen to have a negative effect on purses. I am curious because the other track I am interested in, Charlestown, has table games coming......as it relates to the thread, I am curious if races with lower purses tend to attract similar horses each time and they kind of take turns winning, drawing interest away from potential Pick 6 bettors.

Thanks for the input on the forum and the continued great work at the track.

[mountainman]

MM,

I didnt know this was you. I really enjoy your commentary every night with your co host and I am a fan of MNR racing. Question-is it safe to say that Table Games can be seen to have had a negative impact on purses due to the lower amount that goes to the purses, as opposed to slots? I am not positive this is the case but have heard it and figured I would go to the expert. Seems to be a tough issue because table games differentiate the track from others but by doing so, can be seen to have a negative effect on purses. I am curious because the other track I am interested in, Charlestown, has table games coming......as it relates to the thread, I am curious if races with lower purses tend to attract similar horses each time and they kind of take turns winning, drawing interest away from potential Pick 6 bettors.

Thanks for the input on the forum and the continued great work at the track.
Tx for watching man. No, i don't think table games have hurt mnr's racing program. Our decline in handle and purses more mirrors the economic downturn which has set the entire industry back. Casino competition from pa and (eventually) Ohio also contributes to mnr's woes. Times change, and that's not always someone's fault. We still have our loyal fanbase, however, and take pride in our product. I'm sure I speak for Nancy and Peter as well in saying that our professionalism and enthusiasm for our work will never waver.

[2low]

Add me to the list of MNR fans. I love the full fields, I love that it's still running during the week when I get home from work and I enjoy the handicapping show (whatever you'd call it) between races. I don't bet all the fancy stuff - I'm not smart enough. As long as I can get win bets and exactas down I'm happy:jump:

[Relwob Owner]

Tx for watching man. No, i don't think table games have hurt mnr's racing program. Our decline in handle and purses more mirrors the economic downturn which has set the entire industry back. Casino competition from pa and (eventually) Ohio also contributes to mnr's woes. Times change, and that's not always someone's fault. We still have our loyal fanbase, however, and take pride in our product. I'm sure I speak for Nancy and Peter as well in saying that our professionalism and enthusiasm for our work will never waver.


Got it-whatever happens, you and your co-host always seem to deliver a few chuckles(often times more) and great insight each night and are one of the few simulcasts I watch on my computer with the volume "on":)....

As far as the table games, I think your points are valid. I am a bit nervous at CT-if the table games are a bigger hit than the slots, purses will take a hit. Since we are already in the midst of a bad economy, I think CT will be more of a case sample for the effect of table games on purses and I hope I am wrong....looking forward to having MNR back!

[mountainman]

Got it-whatever happens, you and your co-host always seem to deliver a few chuckles(often times more) and great insight each night and are one of the few simulcasts I watch on my computer with the volume "on":)....


Nance nearly RAN from the studio when we wrapped it up a few weeks ago. She waved once over her shoulder and yelled 'happy new yr!'. Strangely enough, the idea of two months without me didn't seem to dash her spirits much. Go figure. This Monday, though, she's coming home to daddy. No choice.

[rrpic6]

More likely just around the corner at Vintage Estate!

Vintage Estate is the WORLD'S #1 ranked beer sales store. Nice pick. You might want to quit your night job and just keep your day job.

RR

[mountainman]

Add me to the list of MNR fans. I love the full fields, I love that it's still running during the week when I get home from work and I enjoy the handicapping show (whatever you'd call it) between races. I don't bet all the fancy stuff - I'm not smart enough. As long as I can get win bets and exactas down I'm happy:jump:

Tx for the kind words. Apologies if i was a bit sarcastic on the other thread. An unfortunate habit of mine.

[Robert Goren]

Tx for the kind words. Apologies if i was a bit sarcastic on the other thread. An unfortunate habit of mine.Sarcasm is acceptable as long you are picking winners.;)

[Buddha]

$654 in the pick 6 pool first day of offering.


*sarcasm

Almost a lifechanging pool size.....

/sarcasm

[rrpic6]

$654 in the pick 6 pool first day of offering.


*sarcasm

Almost a lifechanging pool size.....

/sarcasm

I'm gathering partners right now. I think if 5 guys throw in 4 bucks apiece we can make a nice ticket. Maybe we'll have the only ticket!

RR

[Rutgers]

I'm gathering partners right now. I think if 5 guys throw in 4 bucks apiece we can make a nice ticket.
RR

Where do you think you are going to find five guys that have that much coin? :D

[Zman179]

Mountainman,

I'm also a big fan and I value your input on a race. It's nice to hear the point of view of a fellow handicapper and not just some cat giving his/her picks out.

With that being said, I have to hop on the bandwagon in saying that the Pick 6 is a bad idea, but a 50 cent pick 4 would fit the bill perfectly.

[philcski]

Why don't tracks actually ask their customers what new wagers they would be interested in?

It's pretty clear to me that a $.50 pick 4 would hit the MNR fans straight in the eye, and could easily handle $10k+ a day, whereas a pick 6 has absolutely no use in this environment.

[schweitz]

Why don't tracks actually ask their customers what new wagers they would be interested in?

It's pretty clear to me that a $.50 pick 4 would hit the MNR fans straight in the eye, and could easily handle $10k+ a day, whereas a pick 6 has absolutely no use in this environment.

I agree with this 100%.

[Zaf]

I like the .50 cent Pick 4 idea :ThmbUp:

Z

[post time]

I have been betting Mountaineer for the past 30 years,but no more. The management is so far behind times it doesnt make since to even complain.They have a bright idea to add a pick 6 and a 50 cent super in the last race.HELLO how about a race 5 superfecta. Maybe they forgot they have one in the 5th race. But on the positive side Sam Houston has full fields every night with 14 horses and two 50 cent pick 4s

[wisconsin]

I have been betting Mountaineer for the past 30 years,but no more. The management is so far behind times it doesnt make since to even complain.They have a bright idea to add a pick 6 and a 50 cent super in the last race.HELLO how about a race 5 superfecta. Maybe they forgot they have one in the 5th race. But on the positive side Sam Houston has full fields every night with 14 horses and two 50 cent pick 4s

I'll agree the MNR is behind the times as far as the wagering menu goes, but HOU is not running 14 horse fields too often anymore. In fact, they struggle to get more than 7 or 8 most races.

[affirmedny]

I spoke just briefly with Rosemary Williams, mnr's director of racing, the other day. I think she said 10 cent supers are coming.
Could somebody call the Meadowlands and inform them of the 50 cent supers? None of their machines or 4njbets.com programmed to take them as of Monday even though you've been open for a while. They are as sharp as a marble when it comes to this kind of stuff...... thanks