The best 2nd Fiddle horse ever.

[Ejmenz]

These great horses failed at the big dance, but how would they do against one another, going 1 1/8 at Churchill Downs in the best 2nd tier Derby ever (1970-present).

[PhantomOnTour]

Holy Bull????

[Spalding No!]

Holy Bull????

Easy Goer, Forty Niner, and Chief's Crown didn't make the cut either. That's enough to contend for "best 2nd tier Derby ever" right there.

[joanied]

Yes, several are missing, but ya can't think of them all...so using the list in the poll, I chose Afleet Alex, although I did want to pick Alydar or Sham....

Tough to pick just one :bang:

[Spalding No!]

Yes, several are missing, but ya can't think of them all...so using the list in the poll, I chose Afleet Alex, although I did want to pick Alydar or Sham....

Tough to pick just one :bang:

There's no speed in the race.

Honest Pleasure would horrify them, especially with only 9f to travel.

[tzipi]

I'll go with Sham who ran the 2nd fastest Derby behind Secretariat until Monarchos. He would be tough to beat I think.

[Ejmenz]

I forgot about Chief's Crown, not sure I'd have put him on.

Forty Niner finished last in the Preakness, not nice to chase the girl so hard.

Holy Bull probably needs to be here.

Easy Goer was one of the main reasons for the list, I blew it, omitted him by accident.

But look it helped his Daddy is winning, even though it's 1 1/8.

IMO Sham would have beaten this field, remember he beat Forego in that star studded Derby.

[Spalding No!]

I forgot about Chief's Crown, not sure I'd have put him on.

Forty Niner finished last in the Preakness, not nice to chase the girl so hard.

Holy Bull probably needs to be here.

Easy Goer was one of the main reasons for the list, I blew it, omitted him by accident.

But look it helped his Daddy is winning, even though it's 1 1/8.

IMO Sham would have beaten this field, remember he beat Forego in that star studded Derby.

Sham beat Forego well before he developed into his best form which came later. In fact, a 3yo Honest Pleasure stretched the top-form Forego all the way down to a neck in the Marlboro Cup in 1976.

Honest Pleasure, with a huge pace advantage, would have taken some beating in this hypothetical race unless you threw Congaree in there.

[TJDave]

No one remembers.... Nashua?

Went on to win the Preakness and the Belmont then beat his nemesis Swaps.

[Ejmenz]

Nashua and Native Dancer were before 1970, and to be honest I thought they both would dominate the voting.

[TJDave]

Nashua and Native Dancer were before 1970

Guess I didn't read that part.

[46zilzal]

I
Forty Niner finished last in the Preakness, not nice to chase the girl so hard.


.
But
1987 Champagne Stakes, G1
1987 Futurity, G1
1987 Breeders’ Futurity, G2
1987 Sanford Stakes, G2
1988 Fountain of Youth Stakes, G2
1988 Travers Stakes, G3
1988 Haskell Invitational Stake, G1 not to mention a 2nd in the NYRA Mile

Noor handed Citation his head but the latter still garners the applause

[GaryG]

Noor handed Citation his head but the latter still garners the applauseOf course he does....Citation was past his prime when Noor beat him as 5yo. Citation had the greatest 3yo season over.

[46zilzal]

Of course he does....Citation was past his prime when Noor beat him as 5yo. Citation had the greatest 3yo season over.
you forgot to mention the ossletts that cost him almost a year

[Spalding No!]

But
1987 Champagne Stakes, G1
1987 Futurity, G1
1987 Breeders’ Futurity, G2
1987 Sanford Stakes, G2
1988 Fountain of Youth Stakes, G2
1988 Travers Stakes, G3
1988 Haskell Invitational Stake, G1 not to mention a 2nd in the NYRA Mile

Noor handed Citation his head but the latter still garners the applause

Forty Niner won the NYRA Mile, but he was a close 2nd in the Woodward in which Alysheba set a track record for 10f.

[only11]

Risen Star was a beast!

[bisket]

Yes, several are missing, but ya can't think of them all...so using the list in the poll, I chose Afleet Alex, although I did want to pick Alydar or Sham....

Tough to pick just one :bang:
those were the three i that i looked at. my first inclination was afleet alex, but the fact that sham also broke the track record behind secratariat says alot. i picked sham. i still feel bad for the guy because secratariat broke him in the belmont.

[Space Monkey]

I picked Sham too. Alydar was my second choice.

[46zilzal]

Forty Niner won the NYRA Mile, but he was a close 2nd in the Woodward in which Alysheba set a track record for 10f.
all the more reason NOT to be a second fiddle here on anywhere else for that matter

[Willy Wonka]

These great horses failed at the big dance, but how would they do against one another, going 1 1/8 at Churchill Downs in the best 2nd tier Derby ever (1970-present).

Well, none of them would win. You omitted the the best "Second Fiddle" at the Derby entirely. If you went back to 1953, this horse and that horse would easily run 1-2.

Willy

[Overlay]

Secretariat and Sham had a great rivalry, but I chose Alydar because he finished second in all three Triple Crown races, and also managed to beat Affirmed on other occasions (the Great American, the Champagne, and the Travers (by disqualification)). Sham finished ahead of Secretariat only once (in the Wood), while not even winning the race. (I believe that it's also been established that Secretariat was suffering from an abscess inside his mouth in that effort, so he was not at his best.)

[Ejmenz]

Handicappers, yes that means all of you and me too.

Pick talent over situation consistently.

Honest Pleasure, at 1 1/8 with only Bet Twice or Sham to keep him honest, garners not one vote.

Yet Alydar, who would be severely challenged at the shorter distance with no pace is the top selection.

Pace does not make the race, at least we don't think it does.

Alydar is obviously a better horse, so we pick him.

KISS

[Sham]

<=======

;)

[Ejmenz]

LOL

[tucker6]

Of course he does....Citation was past his prime when Noor beat him as 5yo. Citation had the greatest 3yo season over.
A strong and compelling case can be made for Secretariat as the greatest 3 yo season. He set two world records, and got a third on the runout after the race.

[tucker6]

Risen Star was a beast!
that he was. :ThmbUp:

[affirmedny]

Of course he does....Citation was past his prime when Noor beat him as 5yo. Citation had the greatest 3yo season over.

And his second fiddle was Coaltown, the epitome of second fiddle.

[affirmedny]

I don't understand. If Holy Bull and Afleet Alex are 2nd fiddle, who is 1st fiddle? Both were division champs and Holy Bull was HOY. Is this supposed to be "the best horses that never won the derby"?

[Ejmenz]

2nd fiddle in that they lost the derby.

Not taking a shot at those great horses I can assure you.

[maxwell]

Many horses finished 2nd. in the Derby. I'm sure there were many barn-burner pre-70's Derby races such as Hill Rise and Northern Dancer going neck and neck down the stretch. As to the question at hand, I would have to go with Alydar.

I believe only one horse has beaten all three TC winners of the same year. Any thoughts?

[Java Gold@TFT]

I believe only one horse has beaten all three TC winners of the same year. Any thoughts?

Runaway Groom beat Gato Del Sol, Aloma's Ruler and Conquistador Cielo in the Travers but he wasn't in the TC races so he wouldn't be part of this poll.

[maxwell]

I got my info mixed up.

This was the only horse to beat two TC winners in the same race. This horse also did not run in the TC.

Thanks for your answer; I learned something new.

[Java Gold@TFT]

I got my info mixed up.

This was the only horse to beat two TC winners in the same race. This horse also did not run in the TC.

Thanks for your answer; I learned something new.
OK, so Exceller beat Seattle Slew and Affirmed in the JCGC of 1978. Also, Slew ran the best race of his life that day only to lose by a head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZFr6N2lNY4

Enjoy.

[joanied]

Thanks for the link, Java Gold...it's always great to see that race again... I don't really like shoulda, woulda, coulda...but if Cordero had been able to slow Slew down just a little on the backstretch, I beleive he'd have won that race...to come back like he did, and I think the margin was less than a head, just showed the incredible courage and class that horse had...unbeleivable!!

[maxwell]

According to Wikipedia:

In the JCGC Affirmed's saddle slipped taking him all but out of the race. Slew set almost suicidal fractions on the lead, but Exceller still powered through the Belmont mud to win by a nose after coming from 22 lengths back.

Exceller's final 1/4 mile fractions were nothing short of amazing. His final fractions in the Hollywood Gold Cup & Oak Tree Invitational were 23 2/5 seconds!

The only other horse to beat two U.S. TC winners was Noor ... but not in the same race. Wikipedia

Cordero must have known a freight train was coming after him. I guess Slew just wanted to rock & roll.

[Ejmenz]

I believe that Jockey Gold Cup showed us why Slew was such a great sire.

That 17,500 bought an amazing amount of heart.