what's in a name

[gino]

"Colombia, where the government is fighting leftist guerrillas and drug traffickers, was allocated about $100 million in military aid this year and has already received all but $5 million of that, Boucher told a briefing.


Richard Dicker, director of the international justice program at Human Rights Watch, said the suspension of aid worked against some of the Bush administration's other policy goals, such as intercepting drugs in the Caribbean and expanding NATO into eastern Europe..."
like i'm gonna believe anything from a guy named Dick Dicker...
must have been a Clinton appointee...Ashcroft would have made him change his name...

[B. Comin']

Gino,

Whaddya, DEA or something?

[kenwoodall]

Patsy Cline's married name was Dick! So the Whitehouse now has a Dicker-Bush policy? I'd like to see Cheney go and a Bush-Dicker ticket in 2004! I would get a bumper sticker!!

[kenwoodall]

The Supreme Court just expressed approval of the '08 ticket of Colin-Dicker!!

[Amazin]

The kind of administration we have becomes clear when three of the most powerful men in America are aptly named:Bush,Colin and Dick.

[Lefty]

amazin, heard that socalled joke 6 m os ago. I'm falling dn yawning. And technically not even true,
their names are George, Colin and Dick.
Or: Bush, Cheney and Powell.
Get a new jokewriter.

[Amazin]

Lefty:"Technically not true"

Well if their names aren't Bush,Colin and Dick,then you are on another planet.

[Lefty]

Once again, I have to explain humor to a liberal: To make your very weak joke you used a combo of two first names and a last name. Inconsistent! Back of the class!

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty
Once again, I have to explain humor to a liberal: To make your very weak joke you used a combo of two first names and a last name. Inconsistent! Back of the class!

There is an empty seat next to BLT. :eek:

[Amazin]

Lefty:

If we had to follow "rules" to make a joke,there would be no humor in this world.What's funnier than the joke is you making a big deal about it.

[Lefty]

Yeah, that's me. Come up with a better joke. Maybe a newer one. If you knew one damn thing about humor you would know there are certain forms, rules if you will and what the good writers of humor call "joke engines"

[Amazin]

All creativity,be it humor,art,inventors,politicians,theologians,entert ainers,scientist, etc,comes from ability to think and perform beyond the normal stereotypes and their rules.Otherwise we would never grow as a race and evolution would be a myth.Your rules lead to stagnation and stupidity.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
.....Your rules lead to stagnation and stupidity.

Two topics you undoubtedly are an authority on! :rolleyes:

[B. Comin']

Here's a better joke:

Whaddya' call a midget with 40 pound balls?
Half nuts!

[Amazin]

Re: Stagnation and stupidity,Tom says:
"Two topics you undoubtedly are an authority on!"

Rather than being an authority on it,I just point it out.It's rampant on this board.

[Lefty]

amazin, you are wrong once again. Every great novel. every great short story and every good joke has form and structure. The greats just know how to hide it, but doesn't mean it's not there. It's the amateurs that try to write withour it and fail miserably. Sorry, back of the class, NOW!

[Derek2U]

i blame U 4 makin Lefty a quasi-intelectual. of course, he's got
zero form & -2 structure + no humor but does that stop him?
no & thats whaT makes old rightists stay alive .... how to have
no brains & a shape like fog but a big typing finger ready.

[Lefty]

Derek, how many writing credits do you have? How many copyrights are in your name, hmmm? At least amazin can type complete words, here, wear this pointy hat.

[Amazin]

Lefty:

I think Derek is right.You may be in unchartered territory(for you).We're not talking politics here for a change but something much more powerful:Human creativity.And sure everything has structure.But to subjugate a form to the same structure all the time is to imprison it's freedom to metamorphasize into it's infinite possibilities.

[Lefty]

amazin, I'm not in uncharted waters, blve me. Good writers, use form and structure and are not subjugated by it. Formless stories, novels, jokes, etc. mostly go unpublished. I submit it is YOU who is in over his head. Romeo and Juliet and When Harry Met Sally both had the same plot but at the same time do not have much resemblence. Good writers are not hampered by form and substance but use it to their advantage.
In the anals of literature how many plots do you think there are?

[Amazin]

Lefty:

Either you are confused or you are confusing.The issue here is you believe a product of human creativity must follow rules and structure.
I believe you cannot evolve and improve a product without altering or modifying a structure or breaking the rules.Otherwise you would have the same product.In other words,we would still be in the stone age if we followed your guidelines of same structure and same rules.

[Lefty]

It's confusing to you because you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Was Shakespeare great? Was Voltaire great? Was Hemingway great? Was Steinbeck great? They all follow tried and true rules of plot form and structure. You can't see it because they know how to hide the skeleton.
Look how many different looking human beings there are but underneath pretty much the same skeletal frame.
If it's still confusing then read as many books on writing and then write and publish as i have and then maybe, just maybe the light will come on.

[gino]

Originally posted by Lefty
amazin, I'm not in uncharted waters, blve me. Good writers, use form and structure and are not subjugated by it. Formless stories, novels, jokes, etc. mostly go unpublished. I submit it is YOU who is in over his head. Romeo and Juliet and When Harry Met Sally both had the same plot but at the same time do not have much resemblence. Good writers are not hampered by form and substance but use it to their advantage.
In the anals of literature how many plots do you think there are?
my favorite quote from the anals of literature is "no sh*t, Sherlock.."
gino

[Amazin]

Your argument is weak.All the great artists are great because they can do what an average artist can't.Call it a gift or whatever.But one thing for sure.Put that gift in that stupid little box of your rules and regulations and it will die.

How many great ones were damned by the so called authorities in their field on rules and structures because they broke the rules and structures of their time.Jesus Christ comes first to mind.If we had a PA board back then,you'd be calling for his crucifiction right now.Advocate of peace and Love?I know Lefty's has his hammer and nails ready.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Amazin
How many great ones were damned by the so called authorities in their field on rules and structures because they broke the rules and structures of their time.Jesus Christ comes first to mind.If we had a PA board back then,you'd be calling for his crucifiction right now.Advocate of peace and Love?I know Lefty's has his hammer and nails ready.

Amazin:

Not even close. The life of Christ was according to script(ure). His life had the most restricted rules and structure.

According to scripture he was not crucifed because he advocated peace and love, he was crucified for mans' salvation fulfilling the prophecy's of salvation.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Lefty]

amazin, what'sc wrong withyou? How do you turn a debate on form and structure to me being anti-Christ? Are you that mean spirited that you can't debate a simple point without getting outright nasty? You don't know my religon so why that remark? Oh, I know, no facts so now vile words. I get it.
Look one more time: The greats are great because they created extra-ordinary works within the confines of form and structure. And the body of literature proves my point: EVERY work of fiction ever written fall's with Polti's 63 plots.
Give the old plot Boy meets Girl and with a less gifted writer you get a cute but ordinary story. With a gifted writer like Shakespeare you get Romeo and Juliet.

[Amazin]

Lefty:

It's you who don't get it.The"great" ones create their own form and structure.Form and structure does not create them.This is what you keep denying:

Proof:William Shakespeare had no university education.Had to drop out of school at 14 to take care of his ill father.Yet he became one of the most brilliant writers in the English Language.How?He wasn't formally"taught"form and structure for literature.At first his works were not even accepted by the literary community of his time.Later his works were considered entertaining but not true literary gems.He died without public recognition until some time after his death.Answer:He created his "own" personalized form and structure which is now recognized as genius.

Christ also had his own form and structure for spirituality.He did not follow Cesaer's form and structure regarding spirituality.That's why he was damned and that's why I don't think you would have recognized him at that time with the attitude you have today.You are too ridgid in your qualifications of acceptable form and structure for any field except the status quo.For you NOT to have been a Cesaers follower at Christ's time you would have had to look past your own beliefs of Spirituality in form and structure,taught to you by the status quo of that time and accept something totally different in spiritual form and structure.Since you are ultra conservative in beliefs it would have been impossible for you to believe in anything but the status Quo..Therefore you would have had no choice but to have been anti-Christ.Christ was too radical for his time and apparently is still too radical for today's hawks.

[Lefty]

amazin, you try hard but just prove my argument. Just because Shakespeare tght himself doesn't mean his stuff doesn't follow recognized form and structure. It's true genius as I said that can take ordinary form and structure and create a masterpiece. You keep proving my argument. And puhleeze, let's leave religon out of this. This debate or discussion started about writing. Like I said Joe Blow can take boy meets girl and create an ordinary tome. Shakespeare takes that same plot and creates literature.
But, the form and structure are there.
The writers who don't follow form and structure are unpublished, blve me. Everything Shakespeare ever created can be found in Georges Polti's 63 plots. That doesn't mean we can all be Shakespeare, Voltaire or even Agatha Christie.

[Lefty]

Damn, I am wrong. Here I am telling amazin only 63 plots according to Georges Polti and tonight I pull my copy from my bookcase and am shocked to find The Thirty-Six Dramatic Situations. Boy my memory is going. So amazin, every great piece of literature has sprung from thirty-six plots. BTW, so has ever bad piece of literature. The gift is taking one of these ordinary plots and breathing so much originality into it ,it becomes a work of art.
So, tell you what, amazin, supply yourself a copy of this book, read it and then we'll talk.

[Show Me the Wire]

Amazin:

If I understand your post. I think you are saying Lefty would participate in the status quo because he believes in structure. This conclusion is not necessarily true.

After reading your post I sense confusion between rigidity and structure, they are not the same. The analogies to Christ are faulty, Christ followed the will of his Father, the structure and rules set forth by his Father to teach the new covenant and bring salvation to mankind. Christ's life followed a script and it had nothing to do with Caesar’s religious philosophy as Caeser was a pagan. Christ proclaimed he was the messiah but he was rejected by the Jewish religion, not because of structure but rigidity. The Jewish people were rigid in their thinking that the expected a messiah to regain the Jewish people a worldly kingdom, not a spiritual kingdom. This rejection was based on rigidity in beliefs, not the structure of the Jewish religion.

Using structure is not equal to accepting the status quo. Genius is using structure in innovative ways, expanding on its use, etc. This ability is called creativity. Creativity is not chaos, but expansion of structure. Is not nature structured, yet it is not rigid? Nature without structure would be chaos. As we are part of nature we have structure to avoid chaos.

Structure is necessary to avoid chaos and rigidity is the lack of flexibility. The are not the same.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is Reality

[GameTheory]

Structure is what allows creativity to happen. Structure is *everything* in creative work. Structure gives meaning. Just ask anyone who creates things for a living. We may be arguing semantics here.

It sounds like Amazin is confusing "structure" with "convention". Structure is not a recipe to be followed. Structure doesn't impose itself on anything -- structure is the foundation on which you build.

[JustRalph]

I have never seen a more wrong headed Thread in my life. I have Amazin and LBJ on ignore and it is kind of funny watching these threads turn to other topics lead by these two. I rarely read what they have added to the discussion but sometimes It seems like things turn south as soon as they run out of crap to spout. Then they turn you guys another direction and you end up talking about "Structure" and "Creativitiy" of all things. Philosophy, Voltaire, in this thread? where does it end with these two wingnuts? BTW Voltaire got his ass locked up when he took his writing a little too far and tweaked the governments funny bone once too often. Good thing that can't happen in America.

[JustRalph]

In spite of where this thread went awry, Damn sharp post my friend.


Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
Amazin:
If I understand your post. I think you are saying Lefty would participate in the status quo because he believes in structure. This conclusion is not necessarily true.

After reading your post I sense confusion between rigidity and structure, they are not the same. The analogies to Christ are faulty, Christ followed the will of his Father, the structure and rules set forth by his Father to teach the new covenant and bring salvation to mankind. Christ's life followed a script and it had nothing to do with Caesar’s religious philosophy as Caeser was a pagan. Christ proclaimed he was the messiah but he was rejected by the Jewish religion, not because of structure but rigidity. The Jewish people were rigid in their thinking that the expected a messiah to regain the Jewish people a worldly kingdom, not a spiritual kingdom. This rejection was based on rigidity in beliefs, not the structure of the Jewish religion.

Using structure is not equal to accepting the status quo. Genius is using structure in innovative ways, expanding on its use, etc. This ability is called creativity. Creativity is not chaos, but expansion of structure. Is not nature structured, yet it is not rigid? Nature without structure would be chaos. As we are part of nature we have structure to avoid chaos.

Structure is necessary to avoid chaos and rigidity is the lack of flexibility. The are not the same.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is Reality

[Lefty]

Show me, damn fine post.

[Show Me the Wire]

JustRalph and Lefty:

I am humbled by your responses.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Tom]

That was eloquent.
And true.
You have just raised the bar on this thread.
Hope I don't hit my head on it :rolleyes:

[Amazin]

This whole discussion came about because I made a joke about Bush,Colin and Dick.Lefty said it was not an acceptable joke because it didn't follow form and structure for humor in his opinion because I used one last name and two first names.To me this is the level of an imbecile.Who is dorky enough to listen to a joke,but first qualify it's order of content to see if it's laughable?Answer: A Robot.

IMO either Lefty is a quasi robot or he took offense to the political humor.I believe the later.That is the underlying reason for this debate.He allready admitted in his last statement that from 36 plots has come a myriad of books due to originality in forms and structures.In order to make that diversity you would have to CHANGE the order of events and type of events(i.E.the form and structure would have to CHANGE).This would create a unique form and structure.A hybrid if you will.Which in turn can mutate to a totally unique form and structure,different from it's predeccesor.This is the same for humor,or religion or literature or anything.Therefore,saying the order of content of my joke does not qualify as a joke is ludicrous considering the infinite forms of humor that have transpired and are still to come.

SMTW:

Either you are confused or you are twisting my point.Yes Jesus followed the will of his father.In that sense you could call Christ rigid.However,Christ's teachings of spirituality(in allegiance to the will of his father) have their own form and structure.This clashed with Cesaer's because in Cesaers structure,Cesaer was King.Cesaers spiritual/political structure was the status quo of that time.Church and State were tied together.For a conservative citizen of the state,it would of been unthinkable to accept another spiritualiy unless he was open and flexible in his thinking.The very word "conservative" says they are not.History proved this as well.You also cannot recognize genius with a conservative idea of the universe.That's why it takes years after their death for many "geniuses" like Shakespeare or Christ to be recognized.

[Show Me the Wire]

Amazin:

Thank you for pointing out how confused I am about rigidity and structure. I am sure you are right and I will defer to someone who is much more knowledgeable than I. I am confused about Christ's teaching conflicted with Caesar's spiritual/political structure, as Christ is reported as saying "render unto Caesar what is due to Caesar". This statement does not seem to support your interpretation, but if you say Christ clashed with Caesar's spiritual/political structure you must be right.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Show Me the Wire]

Amazin:

The reason I understand your opinions are correct and demonstrate your superior knowledge, because you are able to form your conclusions on generalized statements, such as Caesar was king (actually emperor) and to further generalize that “spiritual/political structure was the status quo of that time. Church and State were tied together”. In my confusion I relied on specific reasons to explain why I thought the use of Christ’s life was a poor example to support the argument about the limitations of structure.

Additionally, I agree the thread started with a joke about names, but once again I am confused. I thought you were the one that brought Christ’s life into this thread. Again, I thank you for setting me straight as it is implied in the post that Christ’s life really has no relevance to the original topic and I was in error posting further about your interpretation.

You are right because you say so and I am sure you know you are right.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality.

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by Amazin
This whole discussion came about because I made a joke about Bush,Colin and Dick.Lefty said it was not an acceptable joke because it didn't follow form and structure for humor in his opinion because I used one last name and two first names.To me this is the level of an imbecile.Who is dorky enough to listen to a joke,but first qualify it's order of content to see if it's laughable?Answer: A Robot.

What he was saying is that the joke wasn't funny because it was a "forced" joke. Whoever came up with it had to really stretch to make their point and was basically being lazy. Therefore the intended message of the joke was overridden by the fact that it was basically an insult to the intelligence of its audience because the teller didn't bother coming up with anything clever to tell and yet apparently expected to be rewarded with a laugh anyway. In that sense, the laziness of the joke itself becomes an apt critique of your whole political point of view. (New entitlement program? Laughs for jokes that didn't really earn it?)

Bottom line: the joke is lame, literally, by joke standards. Put me in the robot camp, I guess.

[Lefty]

amazin. you are agreeing with me and don't have the intellect to know it. Of course the writer has to put his personal "stamp" on a piece of writing. With one you get the genius of Dickens with the other you get a hack like Jackie Collins. When you go through all your flim-flammery about hybrids you are saying the same thing. But the structure is still there and evidently the good writers are so good that you don't see it; and that's how it's supposed to be.
Please get a copy of Polti's book. Or can't you bear to think that you just might be wrong?
BTW, you don't seem to know how a robot functions either.

[Amazin]

SMTW

I get your drift but not sure about your point..You say:

" I am confused about Christ's teaching conflicted with Caesar's spiritual/political structure, as Christ is reported as saying "render unto Caesar what is due to Caesar". This statement does not seem to support your interpretation, but if you say Christ clashed with Caesar's spiritual/political structure you must be right."

When Christ said give to Cesaer what is Cesaer's he also said in the same breath"give to god what is god".It was in response to someone asking him how they can live their life under Cesaer and still worship god.So Christ did conflict with Cesaer's socio/political structure.That's obvious and that's why he was put to death.I don't see how you can miss that point.

I brought up Christ while talking about stucture and form in literature because what is literature but the written words about a person or person's life.Books are a form of art but your life is the true art.

What I resent about Lefty's comment is not that he doesn't find my joke funny but that he puts a limitation on any art form,in this case literature.A contradiction in itself.

The main problem I see with the human race is that we know very little about this pheneomena called life,but think we know how things should be.This life is a total mystery.It's obviously infinite in form and structure.To play god and tell me this is what constitutes good form and structure is to be blind. this is just obvious stuff.

[Show Me the Wire]

Amazin:

Once again I must defer to your knowledge, especially that life is a mystery and what really good structure is like. I get your point, but I do not understand it. So to further my understanding I am asking to try an experiment.

In this experiment I would like you to delete your computer's operating system and without reinstalling or replacing the operating system(structure) I would like you to post your observations on this site about what happens when you operate your computer without its operating system.

Would anyone else like to see Amazin try this experiment to further our understanding of structure?

Thank you in advance for your coopoperation in this expirement.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Amazin
SMTW


When Christ said give to Cesaer what is Cesaer's he also said in the same breath"give to god what is god".It was in response to someone asking him how they can live their life under Cesaer and still worship god.So Christ did conflict with Cesaer's socio/political structure.That's obvious and that's why he was put to death.I don't see how you can miss that point.

I brought up Christ while talking about stucture and form in literature because what is literature but the written words about a person or person's life.Books are a form of art but your life is the true art.



Obviously the person asking the question did not understand the actions of following Christ's path and being a citizen of Rome are not mutually exclusive. Since many times, in this thread, you have questioned my intellectual capacity about how easily I miss obvious points, I feel I should return the favor.

Up to this point I have never personally referred to your intellectual capabilities. However, I am in awe of your obvious lack of awareness, your inability to contrast and compare and to have the verve to believe you are intellectually superior to others.


How can you use a statement contrary to the point you are trying to make and use it as authority to support your conclusion? I see you really act upon your beliefs. You disregard structure in your posts, and your thinking. I see you do not have the capacity to understand what is contrary to your position and what is support for your position.

As for the obvious stuff strewn about in your post. If only the obvious is known why did it take Newton to figure out gravity made objects fall to the ground. I am sure Newton was not the only person to sit under an apple tree receive a hit on the head from an apple. Do you get my point and understand it?

Another hint, if you would like people to see your point of view, do not tell them they are too stupid to see it. In your case it is better to tell them they are stupid when they agree with your point of view.

I guess I lowered the bar!!!!

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Lefty]

amazin, structure is not limitation, it is foundation that makes a piece of literature or even a joke work. The fact that EVERY piece of literature can be found in Polti's "Thirty-Six Dramatic Situations" certainly shows that structure is not limiting. Maybe to one with no imagination it is limiting but not to a real writer.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
.....I guess I lowered the bar!!!!

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

Ouch! Stubbed my toe! :rolleyes:

Another GOOD post, SMTW.....on the money.

[Amazin]

SMTW:

Whatever operating system you use is not the structure,it is the form.The structure is the motherboard,processor,hard drive,memory.

Actually computers are a good analogy for my point against Lefty's self limiting argument.I have built about 8 computers.Each time a stronger processor came out,I'd want to upgrade.And I would get wowed by what a new motherboard could do.My point is that each generation of improvement in computer hardware created a different structure.And it only takes about 6 months for me to feel outdated and need to upgrade.The operating systems(form) have also improved from Win 3.1 to XP.This process will never stop.Can you imagine what computers will be like in 50 years!.

So if I was a Lefty,i'd be saying :"Dipshit says there are only 36 structures for computers".We'll he can eat shit.Is that clear enough.The universe is infinite,and so is our evolution in every aspect of our creation. I don't need a self defeating individual to tell me the world is flat or we are the center of the solar system,or that there are only 36 possibilities of anything.Comprende?

[Show Me the Wire]

Whatever operating system you use is not the structure,it is the form.

The operating system is form.

Now I really think you are not serious and out to have a fun time. I played along enough.

Bye,

Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Amazin]

How could you have an operating system without the processor and Motherboard?Doesn't work the other way around.So Hardware is the tangible structure.Operating system is the cyberspace form.Another no brainer.

[Lefty]

amazin, I have proved my point numerous times and anyone can verify it by reading Polti's book. Your so very rude and crude comments about what to include in my diet is once more the refugeof the liberal who is so out of gas.
Someday you simply must say it to my face.

[Amazin]

Lefty:

You have proved nothing except that you like to wear a chain on your brain.

My first vocational interest was in 3rd grade.I wanted to be an astronomer.I taught myself quite abit at that time about the planets.Back then they said Jupiter had 9 moons.If anyone said otherwise,it would be unthinkable.Today,I've lost count on how may sattelites orbit Jupiter.One report says 61!.

No one thought we'd walk on the moon.For a long time we were the center of the solar system.I believed back then as a third grader that there was life elsewhere in the universe.All the scientist until very recently said that was not true.Now they are starting to use horseplayer odds.If you consider there are more stars in the sky than all the individual grains of sand on the earth,it becomes 1-9 that there is life elsewhere than this egocentered planet.Scientist finally figured this out.I figured it out in 3rd grade.No I don't think I'm smart because of that.It's just common sense.

So my only beef with you here is to remove that chain from your brain.If you want to keep your chains,fine.But it is you who are acting as the authority on Literature.I'm simply saying like I did in 3rd grade,just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Lefty]

amazin, you say, h"how could you have a computer without motherboard and processor."
Yup, can't have one without structure. I agree. You're agreeing with me again. And doesn't every computer use the binary code? And what could be more structured than that?
Structure is not limiting, only lack of imagination is limiting.

[Show Me the Wire]

Structure and form

A game played as follows the structure two opposite views with each proponent going after each other and the form is involving others in the debate. When the debate cools off the two original debaters heat it up again with each other. Ah, structure and form.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Lefty]

amazin, no chain on my brain. I was thinking about how we could get to the moon when i was in 3rd grade too. I wondered about why it couldn't be a simple radio controlled device, at that young age.
But, that's nort what we were talking about; you're thinking is so undisciplined, and you are so desperate to prove me wrong that you have rambled to Jesus, computers and now the moon. And your narrow mindedness cannot grasp what i'm saying or you simply don't want to. I have proved my point and you know it. In all literature there is structure: Polti proves it. Like I say, only an unamiginative clod like you can only conceive of structure as limiting which it is not. Man, look at the millions of great novels and stories which have sprang from those thirty-six situations. That proves that structure is not limiting. You cannot prove me wrong so you ramble through the universe like the gas escaping from a balloon and the balloon flying all over the place until its air is gone. Mr balloon, your air is gone. You cannot prove me wrong.

[Tom]

Is it just me, or does Amazin continually talk about "no brainers?"
I am coming to associate the name and the phrase as interchangeable.

"Do you want a steak, or would you rather have liver?"
"Amazin!"
:rolleyes:

[Lefty]

amazin, since you want to try and use the Universe to try and prove your point by saying the Universe is infinite. Yes it is, but there is also structure in the Universe. Infinity and structure can both exist simultaneously. Yes, I know, it's mind boggling, eh?

[Amazin]

I suppose I should ask "is there any intelligent life on this board"?So far I have to say no.Just like in the political debates,you don't get it.

Lefty,you say you are right.Well in the political debates,the aftermath from Iraq keeps confirming I was right and you and all those other meatheads didn't have a clue.Just wave your flags around like empty headed zombies.Yesterday even the white house admitted forged documents were used to go to war.

In this debate on structure,my only point has been that there is no absolute on what is and what is not acceptable as structure in literature or any other field.I've told you I don't give a rats ass what your narrow minded author says.There were nine moons around Jupiter when I was in 3rd grade,now there are 61.Your author says there are 36 situations in literature.How many will there be in the future.So you couldn't understand how I went from literature to Christ to Jupiter.Mr. Lefty,this is called an analogy in literature.Read a little more and maybe you will be able to put 2 and 2 together.I see I'm way over your head Mr. authority on literature who can't see an analogy when it's right in his face.I don't think you're qualified to discuss this subject.

Tom:

I'll pass on the steak and liver.I prefer Tofu.

[Dave Schwartz]

Tofu... Now, why does that not surprise me?

[Lefty]

amazin, you give opinion, I give facts. Your analagies are simply non-analagous. As far as being qualified, how many pieces of fiction and/or articles have you sold and that have been published? There is structure everywhere and it's not a bad thing.
Try and sell a piece of fiction or article anywhere without structure and you will fail.
I tried to write freelance when I was 16 and my short stories just rambled without structure(because I didn't know about it then)and I sold nothing, but after learning it I was moderately successful, though I don't write for publication anymore. It's a tough racket even when you know structure. I have proved that every story or novel ever written can be found in Polti's Thirty-Six situations and you bleat I have proved nothing. I'm right because I can prove it and you say you're right because, uh, well, you say so.

And, pal, you were not right on Iraq and I sure would like to see your sorry face when Bush is reelected.

[Lefty]

amazin, clearly you do not know a thing about literature when you call Georges Polt "a narrow minded author."
The first copyright on the book was 1921 and the premise was not even original with this author.
Here's a quote from the flyleaf of the book "Gozzi maintained that there can be but thirty-six dramatc situations. Schiller took great pains to find more, but he was unable to find even so many as Gozzi"--Goethe

Think you are as smart as these guys, be my guest.

[Lefty]

amazin, and furthermore you say there are no absolutes in literature or anything else. I agree. But I did not say there were absolutes in literature. I said exactly the opposite. I said in effect, you can take the thirty-six situations and create an infinite amount of stories. Where's the absolute in that?
Derek critisizes handicapping books without reading them and you are critisizing this famous textbook for writers, i strongly suspect, without having read it.

[Derek2U]

Why not quit while ur 8 lenghts behind? Amazin is tryin 2 bring U
in2 the cell-phone age not even UR- lying scandal-ridden Bush-team-term age. Ah, what do YOU really know? ... is it that Much
really? U certainly never reveal any Verifiable belief like some
horse who WILL win a SpecifiC RAce. ah, nothing real like some
Event, but then again, why would U get ur hands Dirty when U
+ that non-Entity BoX just type AD 4EVER? hehe ,,,, isnt it really
the way U like 2 argue ... in circularity? it dont matter cause u &
ur one PaL r just anonEmus zeroes ... so 2 speAK! (& I like U sorta
kinda) ... AtNeRATE .... just make sure that WE read ur stuff on
that perv Ponti ... sounds like a WoP so how can we trust
that guy??????????? ....

[Lefty]

Derek, can't make out much but I think you called Polti an ethnic slur that is generally hurled at italians, and you even butchered his name by calling him Ponti. His name is Georges Polti and he is, was a frenchman. I am so far ahead in this argument i have lapped my opponent and that's because I have presented facts and not merely opinion. You guys want to challenge me? Here goes. Name one published short story or novel or play that's not covered in Polti's thirty-six situations.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Amazin
Lefty:"Technically not true"

Well if their names aren't Bush,Colin and Dick,then you are on another planet.

The Joke's Old and Crusty. And Juvenile because it requires the use of a last, and two first names to make it work.

Lefty's dead on.

[Tom]

Lefty knows JackSchitt!
But it sounds like another poster might be related to one of the French family members, Tonza Schitt. Although maybe he is really Sameole Schitt in disguise?
Whatever, he does appear to have a PhD///Piled highed and deeper!

[Amazin]

Lefty:An anology for you.Try to follow the logic Mr.Pulitzer.

Your claim of superiority in this argument is as real as a guy fantazing about chicks in a porno theatre with his hands between his legs.In reality he can't even get a date.

(May be too tough for Lefty to figure out.Might have to drop in class)

[Lefty]

Your juvenile attempt at a humorous analogy further proves my point. I have presented facts not opinions. Take my challenge:
Can you find a published, story, play or novel that can't be found in Polti's Thirty-Six situations? It's as simple as that.
And you didn't answer my question: Are you a published writer?
I am.

[Amazin]

If you are a published writer,the standards must be very low to become one.For the Umpteenth time,I will make the same point that has eluded your illiterate skull:

Point A)Whether or not there are 36 situations in literature and that thousands of scenarios have emerged from them is irrelevant to me.

Point B)My point is that you cannot define an art and say there is a set standard of structures(in this case you claim 36).That is anti-art.You would inhibit any new and revolutionary art be it literature or whatever that has a different structure.It would be anti-evolutionary as well.

Point C)Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.I have illustrated for you with Christ,computers,Jupiters Moons,that history has shown the status quo to be either in error or breeding new structures making past beliefs look incompetent or narrow minded.

Point D)If I used 2 first names and one last and you say it is against any acceptable structures,what happens when an artist comes along and becomes an overnight sensation using an irregular technique.It's like the Dosgae theory.It will suddenly become acceptable and your argument will be outdated as it inevitably will be and is.

[GameTheory]

Amazin,

Your body has structure, no? You can't eat rocks and expect to be nourished -- you've got to eat material made of the proper stuff & in the proper structure for your body to digest.

Your mind has structure too (which is based on the biological needs of your body, by the way). All human learning & communication can be boiled down to metaphors which reflect your basic bodily functions & needs. These metaphors are built-up & combined, and recombined in an infinite number of ways to create our thoughts and concepts. This is how humans work.

Because *we* are structured a certain way (you have structure, don't you?) that means our minds resonate with certain structures in the outside world and not with others. Why are most stories in a three-act structure? Because that is what works -- that is how the brain understands things -- it is not an accident.

Look at the work of Joseph Campbell. He studied the mythologies of cultures the world over, past & present. Most of which had no exposure to each other historically. What did he find? They all told the same basic stories -- only the particulars relating to their particular culture were different.

This attitude -- "Art doesn't follow any rules! You're cramping my freedom of expression." is very common among people who have never created anything. It is idealistic, and anti-authoritarian, but it just isn't so. Ask any working writer, composer, etc. and they'll tell you. Structure is the friend of the creative person, not an obstacle. Not in any way.

[This post is indebted to the work of the following, among others:

Aristotle
Joseph Campbell
Jacques Barzun
Mark Turner
George Lakoff
Robert Fritz
Gilles Fauconnier
Northrop Frye
David Mamet
Steven Pinker
Suzanne Langer
Rudolf Arnheim

(By the way, some of these guys are liberals!)

not to mention inumerable aristists, who knew how to structure the materials of their medium to get the mind resonating.
]

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty
Your juvenile attempt at a humorous analogy further proves my point. I have presented facts not opinions. Take my challenge:
Can you find a published, story, play or novel that can't be found in Polti's Thirty-Six situations? It's as simple as that.
And you didn't answer my question: Are you a published writer?
I am.

A. He can't.
B. He won't.

He is all talk, no walk.
Striclty entertainment, no substance.

[Bobby]

ya'll go beat off

[Amazin]

Gt:

I guess Lefty's got you confused too.I am not against structure.I am the opposite.I am saying that Lefty is boxing himself in by following an author who says there are ONLY 36 structures.My point has been that there are probably many more structures that we have not yet discovered.Of course everything has it's own structure.,including chaos whose structure is no structure. But Lefty's attititude is close minded to the inevitable emergence of new structures.It is this closemindedness that I find unhealthy,anti-art and anti progressive.BTW Joseph Campbell rules in that pbs series.

[GameTheory]

Polti's 36 Situations are just skeletons that contain the basic story dynamics, and in fact he *stretches* it a bit just to get 36. Many others have suggested that you could further reduce that to 8 (or is it 12?) even more basic situations.

The perfect analogy is matter itself. Without getting into quantum stuff, the smallest units are atoms. There are only 113 known kinds of atoms, yet everything in the universe is made out of them, and only them. The same thing with the 36 situations. There may only be 36 of them, but with those as your atomic units you can still tell an infinite number of stories without making up a new dynamic. (Although they don't combine in quite the same way as atoms -- the "main" story arc will always be one of the 36.) Here is the real challenge: make up a new situation that isn't already covered in the 36. Forget about a whole story, just try to find a new dynamic. Bet you can't.

Polti's book has been around for decades and is considered a classic, and therefore can usually be found at your local library if you're really interested...

[Lefty]

I am not closeminded I have stated fact. If you don't believe it's fact, take the challenge or admit you are wrong. Don't offer your worthless opinion without proof. GT has got it right. And you have said you are against structure. You can't even hold your own thghts together.
Show me, pal, show me. What story, novel or play cannot be found in Polti's 36? Quit shooting off your typing finger and just show me.

[GameTheory]

Actually, Lefty, there probably is an answer to your challenge. I think it is possible to come up with something that doesn't fit one of the situations, just nothing good. Nothing that makes sense. A performance artist could run around a stage babbling inanely and claim they were telling a "story". You could also write a mood piece that was just stream of consciousness where it was really up to the reader's mind to organize it into something sensible (our minds tend to do that -- just look at some clouds and you'll be seeing familiar shapes as you know. Happens looking at PPs too!).

Then your argument becomes, "Is it a story or not?" The extremist will probably be able to come up with a bizarre example that may seem to support their view -- making a challenge like, "Find a story that works that isn't one of the 36." is more appropriate, but so subjective it is pointless to argue about. ...

[Amazin]

Lefty quote:
"Show me, pal, show me. What story, novel or play cannot be found in Polti's 36?"

First of all Polti's 36 plots are for DRAMA.The book is called"36 Dramatic Situations".Here are his 36 Dramatic plots:



I Supplication II Deliverance III Vengeance of a crime IV Vengeance taken for kindred upon kindred V Pursuit VI Disaster VII Falling prey to cruelty or misfortune VIII Revolt IX Daring enterprise X Abduction XI The Enigma XII Obtaining XIII Enmity of kinsmen XIV Rivalry of kinsmen XV Murderous adultery XVI Madness XVII Fatal imprudence XVIII Involuntary crimes of love XIX Slaying of a kinsman unrecognised XX Self-sacrificing for an ideal XXI Self-sacrifice for kindred XXII All sacrificed for a passion XXIII Necessity of sacrificing loved ones XXIV Rivalry of superior and inferiorXXV Adultery XXVI Crimes of love XXVII Discovery of the dishonour of a loved one XXVIII Obstacles to love XXIX An enemy loved XXX Ambition XXXI Conflict with a god XXXII Mistaken jealousy XXIII Erroneous judgement XXXIV Remorse XXXV Recovery of a lost one XXXVI Loss of loved ones

To answer your challenge,I don't see "Mistaken Identity".The closest he comes is erroneous judgement,but that is not an identity issue.Are you satisfied now Mr.knowitall.

[Lefty]

Gt, back up a sec. My argument was that it takes a certain structure for something to become what publishers want and will pay for. I, as a 16 yr old knew nothing about structure, but only when I learned did I sell a few things. The challenge is not to come up with a piece of drek but to show me something that's been published that doesn't fit the 36 situations. I was trying to point out to amazin that good fiction and good jokes have structure but then he closed HIS mind completely to my argument and went off on several tangents, had a fit of namecalling and came up short with nothing but his protests that fell far short of ever proving his unproveable argument. The prob. with him is he hasn't the foggiest of what I was talking about, refuses to learn and knows nothing about writing.

[Lefty]

I'm not Mr. Knowitall as that is taken by you. You are the one that said structure was limiting and meant nothing. These are broad categories and mistaken identity can well be covered by slaying of a kinsman unrecognized. As I said, these are broad categories and writers use them as such. To write a story about mistaken identity is to use structure, that is the main structure of the story.
But STRUCTURE nontheless; the thing you were railing against. You have proven my point. The imagination used by ea. writer, as i've said ad infinitum is whether you get a work of art or a piece of hack work.

[gino]

...and to think i started this thread off with some dumbass joke about some guy named dick dicker..meanwhile hemingway and wavy gravy go ballistic trying to figger out how many pinheads you can stack on an angel(or maybe it was an angle)...all this philosophizing is making me feel like dirk diggler's dad...
gino
"and you ask me, senor, do I know pancho villa...."

[Dave Schwartz]

Gino,

>>>"and you ask me, senor, do I know pancho villa...."<<<

I know this was part of the punch line to an old joke... And I know the punch line, but I have forgotten the joke. Would you consider emailing me the rest of the joke?

Dave

[JustRalph]

See if you know this one.......

"The old man says to his wife........who gave you the dime?"

She replied "All of them"

[Lefty]

JR I know that joke. It's well structured leading up to a funny and logical punchline. I used to write jokes and gags for freelance cartoonists and you could not sell them just anything...had to be logical unto itsownself and funny. I think my best one(imagine this as a cartoon)was a liontamer and we see that the lion has bitten the'tamer's hrad off. Next panel: Man in audience. "Wow, I can't imagine what he does for an encore."
The cartoonist loved it and sold it to a popular magazine of the time. This was back in the 60's.

[Amazin]

Lefty:

Is there a lower life form than you.You are a cowardly liar.I took you up on your idiotic challenge that you never thought I could respond to and when I proved you wrong you start singing a different tune.You should be ashamed of yourself.

Polti's 36 situations came out in 1921.You were basing your argument on his book.Alot of technology has occured since then for example plastic surgery.Mistaken identity based on plastic surgery did not exist back then .This is just one new structure that has transpired since then.Slaying of a Kinsman unrecognized is killing someone unknowingly like when you don't know you have a brother because the parents never told the slayer.Mistaken identity is deliberate deception thru physical alteration of the body,a science that was not available back then.Your lack of distinction is crude.Another structure Polti did not cover is science fiction.Not much existed back then about that either.Next time you offer a challenge,be man enough to admit when you lose.

[Tom]

Talk about crude. You are a pompus ass, pal. Your post offer nothing but name-calling, put downs, and other unnecessary rude remarks.
I have to apologize to Ljb for always lumping him in the same catagory with you. He at least shows signs of intellignece and civilized manners. You, sir, are at best a lout, and and old, frustrated lout at that.
Don't you have the URL for a website better sutied to your mental abilities than this one?
Try
http://www.bottom-feeders.com/amazin_conversations

[Amazin]

No Tom,Lefty is the pompus ass,that's the reason for my remarks.If you act like an ass with me I'll tell it to your face.I'm only interested in facts and truth.If he wants to play games,that's what he gets.He challenged me,And I was as straight as an arrow with him.He can't handle it and neither can you.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
No Tom,Lefty is the pompus ass,that's the reason for my remarks.If you act like an ass with me I'll tell it to your face.I'm only interested in facts and truth.If he wants to play games,that's what he gets.He challenged me,And I was as straight as an arrow with him.He can't handle it and neither can you.

Can't handle it? Handle what? Rude and incoherent rants by some unseen face on the internet? (BTW....you can't "tell it to anyone's face" on the internet...you only do that in real life-face to face). I posted before you were nothing but entertaiment value, but like the stock market, your value is going down. Can't handle you?
Ha!
A, if crud wore boots, YOU would be the crud on crud's boots!
I deal with *ssh*les for living, and A, you aint nothing...just an amature. In the real world, you wouldn't even rate standing up off my barstool. Freddy Blasse said it best...."nothing but a pencil-neck geek!"
HAGD!

[doophus]

Originally posted by Amazin
No Tom,Lefty is the pompus ass,that's the reason for my remarks.If you act like an ass with me I'll tell it to your face.

Tom & Amazin':

I invite both to Baton Rouge for another of Amazin's incredible proclamations...calling Tom a "pompus ass" to his face. Tom, your plane fare is on its way; Amazin', call me when you get to the Baton Rouge Greyhound terminal. I'll reimburse your bus fare.

We have a very fair High Sheriff, a long-time very conservative Republican (a rarity in Louisiana), and I'm sure he will treat both of you with varying degrees of respect.

BTW, anyone who calls himself "Amazin" has to be a pompous ass, huh?

PA:

Time for another poll. Who's the pompous ass?


George

[Tom]

Anybody says anything to MY face in Loosiana, they be talking through jambalya! Mmmmmm.
Pass the Loosiana Hot Sauce!
Hey, what do you guys drink with that, anyway?
I'm thinking a full bodied, amber ale?
That is one place I have to go to some winter...one of my heros was Justin Wilson...I gar-own-tee-it! :eek:

[Lefty]

amazin, you are the one that's changed his tune and seem to not be able to handle it. You seem to be screaming like a banshee. You said structure didn't matter, I introduced you to Polti, gave you a challenge, and you came up with a pretty good answer, thinking you had discovered a new structure. So now structure does matter; so really in deference you are the one changing the tune. I'm still saying all published written things have a structure and a certain structure that must be met for ea publisher and his readers or your stuff will never see print.
BTW I know it took you a couple of days to come up with that plastic surgery bit, and, gee I hate to tell you this, but there can be mistaken identity without plastic surgery; don't you know that? How many people have went to jail through mistaken identity and all without plastic surgery? Open up your imagination.
Here's a tip: Never call me a liar or a pompous ass to my face unless you want to have a fight. I would prefer to tie a rope to ea. of our wrists and fight until one of us quits or is unconcious. Damn, I love that style of fighting.

[Lefty]

amazin, and another thing, you said Polti didn't cover science fiction. No, and he didn't have to. The plots of science fiction are in the same 36 situations for science fiction is about people and their foibles, the science is the background, the lagnappe as it were.

[Amazin]

Lefty:

I'm not sure how to have an intelligent discussion here without using some strong language to point out your shortcomings.

2 questions:

A)where is it that I said structure didn't matter?Quote me.
B)You still have not refuted mistaken identity.I have backup on that when your done guessing.And as far as science fiction,tell me in what 36 Polti plots would you categorize movies such as"jaws" or a sci-fi such as "Alien".

Doophus and Tom:

Get a life.

[gino]

i hope this thread lasts another couple of months...
amor y paz,
gino

[Lefty]

Gino, hang on....
amazin, you've used strong language before, i.e." lefty can eat shit" That's pretty strong and sounds like a frustrated person who feels bested.
Anyway, the joke you related started this whole discussion when I said it was unfunny and lacked proper structure. From there you went on a several post harangue about how structure didn't matter, structure was limiting, blah, blah blah. I guess liberals' short memories go beyond politics. Gee, I wonder how Hillary wrote that long book with no memory, but I digress...
2nd situation Deliverence will cover both stories. elements are:
an Unfortunate, a Threatener and a Rescuer. The writers of these stories could very well have used this 2nd situation as a "springboard" for their imaginations. Whether they did or not is immaterial as this covers their stories in the proverbial nutshell. You do know these are very broad situations and the writer has to bring his imagination to bear, don't you?

[Amazin]

Lefty quote regarding 'Mistaken Identity"
"BTW I know it took you a couple of days to come up with that plastic surgery bit, and, gee I hate to tell you this, but there can be mistaken identity without plastic surgery; don't you know that? How many people have went to jail through mistaken identity and all without plastic surgery?"

I must admit I sometimes set you guys up.The Mistaken Identity wasn't my idea.It's been talked about alot as being #37 that Polti did not include.Here's a couple of links:

http://www.sff.net/people/julia.west/CALLIHOO/ideagen2.htm

http://ipl.si.umich.edu/div/farq/plotFARQ.html(this one is slow to load)

So you see Lefty,you were trying to refute something that the experts,not me included in Polti's plots.In other words,you don't don't as much about it as you pretend to.

[Lefty]

amazin, I admit I did not know about this 37th plot, but i submit that Polti didn't use it because it was unnecessary and redundant.
Nice research. see what i've done for you? I've led you to find out for yourself that structure matters greatly in literature and that wild imagination can take that structure and operate freely within it, for genius knows no bounds. I think it has been a great learning experience for you and I learned a little too.

[Show Me the Wire]

And what plot is the Lefty and Amazin thread? Is it enigma coupled with erroneous judgment? Me thinks the bards are afoot.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[gino]

(1)was polti related to ponzi?
(2) what year was that Bogey movie where a guy escapes from SanQuentin, goes into San Francisco, goes to some underground quack, comes out with his head all bandaged up, and when Lauren Bacall unwraps him, PRESTO!, it's Bogart...
(3)are Paul Simon's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover relevant to this thread?
(4)i am currently working on a new handicapping book called
Bet Like You Mean It
The Art of Wagering While Really Pissed Off
and i wondered if you guys could contribute a chapter or two?
DON"T LET THIS THREAD DIE....ST JUDE LOVES YOU....

[gino]

I spruced this up for u guys:
Before The Macarena, weddings and bar mitzvahs used to have that Hokey Pokey Moment when the whole place would go apeshit for about 5 or 10 minutes...
Larry LaPrise, the man who wrote The Hokey Pokey, died peacefully last week at the age of 93.
The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin. They put his left leg in- and then the trouble started...

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
[B].....I must admit I sometimes set you guys up.The Mistaken Identity wasn't my idea....../B]

Sooooo. You lied? And no wyou admitt it? You purposely mis-lead us all?
How come that is OK for you to do, but you chastise W for doing it?
Double standard, A????

[Amazin]

No I did not lie.I just did not disclose my sources.It is you guys who assumed it was my idea.But I figured you'd take that bait and run with it.

[Show Me the Wire]

For the benefit of Gino’s friends’ pool and because I am bored, I am revisiting structure. When Amazin started referring to structure as the cause for small-minded people thinking the earth was flat, I thought what a wonderful way to illustrate the importance of understanding structure. I was going to submit the view of the world being flat directly resulted from not understanding structure.

During and prior to the exploration era of Columbus; people had observed the sun, moon and stars. Obviously the sun and moon were round in shape Early astronomers using their primitive telescopes observed other celestial bodies and must have noted the roundness of these other stars and planets. Therefore if people really understood structure they would have concluded the most likely shape of the earth was round. Unfortunately, since the concept of structure evaded them and they thought in terms of superstition the only conclusion was the earth was flat, because when they looked toward the horizon they saw the edge of the earth meet the sky. Therefore they didn’t need no stinkin’ structure to prove their authority on the matter.

Hope this helps Gino.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Lefty]

amazin, what bait? I never said you had to be orig. Nothin new and orig under the sun. Mistaken Identity pretty good try by you or anyone but Polti no doubt didn't use it cause it's redundant; just a sub-category. But you went looking for and answer and came up with a pretty good one and you came to realize writers and editors rely on highly structured stories. When I realized that my fiction started to sell.
My job is done.; glad to be of service.

[Amazin]

I think you should be called Amazin and me Lefty.It's amazing that you now say there was no bait when you admitted that you were unaware of this addedum 37th plot.Until I showed you sources of my info, you thought I guessed at it.That shows you did take the bait.

And you say Polti didnt use this 37th plot because it was redundant.But Polti's 36 plots are redundent.I can sum them all up with one theme:Peace and War.I can put every situation into a sub category of those opposites.Polti is too general and would not have had the vision to create stories that have transpired today with his 36 plots.That credit is to evolution,not Polti.

[Lefty]

amazin, you better go back and read what this thread was all about. You decried structure, it was too constricting, it stifled genius. I showed you that all literature was reduced by others and written down by Polti to 36 plots. This was to show you that imagination was not constricted by structure., that genius copuld flow within the walls of structure.Meanwhile you're playing a child's game of bat and trap. Like I said, i've sold many a short story and I don't blve you have. Anyway, Polti's situations have elements that make the plots work, to go for.ward and reach a conclusion. To say you can reduce them to peace and war is foolish. That doesn't stimulate the imagination or give a writer any ingredients to forward his plot.
With you it's about being right even when you're wrong then you really make a fool of yourself. with the peace and war crap. amazin, i'm afraid you have failed the course.

[gino]

Ahmadzin-
too bad old whatshisname turned it around and called it War and Peace...
gino
Yours for Revisionism

[SandyE]

Gino et al

I've read this read from start to finish.
Besides what's in a name but what your given by your parents or what you want others to call you. Besides youses guouys crack me up wit' the politictol go around. What I think is so funny is that two people agreeing with each other but one of them doesn't know or realize that has occurred.
Now that's too, too funny for words.
lol :D

[Show Me the Wire]

Gino (2u?) and SandyE

Gino this is for your friends and Sandy this is for your observation. Structure equals Amazin.

Amazin’s thought process is so structured, he cannot adjust his analysis to respond to a solution provide to his dilemma before he raises the dilemma. His rigid thinking allows the reader to anticipate Amazin’s thought process, before Amazin even realizes what he himself is thinking.

For example in the PA closing thread post, I closed the post with a simple solution to what Amazin’s perceived, but unstated, problem is about his or someone’s else’s ability to participate:


Oh if you tell me you were denied participating in the thread, becuase of PA's actions, I say so what. Start a new thread on topic, simple eh.

Did my anticipatory remarks deter Amazin form his structured thought process? No. His structured process caused him to press forward with the censorship argument implying he and others were deprived of their right to participate and PA is wrong because PA’s actions did not meet with Amazin’s approval.

Now I ask this question, who would be more likely to believe the earth was flat, prior to Columbus' voyage, Amazin or Lefty? My money is on Amazin.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[gino]

SMTW-
you win that bet, easy...the best part is, 500 years after Colunbus, Amazin' still doesn't think the world is round, he thinks it's crooked...
gino

[Show Me the Wire]

Gino:

LMAO!!!!

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Amazin]

As i said before,everything has structure.It's just that people like Lefty want to decide what is and what isn't structure.My joke of 2 first names and one last name is structural in itself.But it is not recognized by the nearsighted Lefty Foundation of limited structure incorporated.Who made you the authority?

Maybe pinheads can understand this.In five million years,we will not exist as a race on this planet because we will have entered another ice-age.(I have sources Lefty so don't deny it).Many civilizations will have fallen.Eventually the earth will not exist as the sun swallows it.Much sooner than that we'll all be dead.We will have totally new structures,if any.All your idiotic beliefs will be dust in the wind.Where's your structure then.Gone.This is nature.Structures are created and destroyed.Universes are created and destroyed..But no.This does not apply to Lefty's stupid stuctures.Nothing can touch them. Incredibly they never die or get transformed.These can only be the sacred structures.Only problem is they're not.Your knowledge of structure probably fits on the end of a pin compared to what's out there.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
For the benefit of Gino’s friends’ pool and because I am bored, I am revisiting structure. When Amazin started referring to structure as the cause for small-minded people thinking the earth was flat, I thought what a wonderful way to illustrate the importance of understanding structure. I was going to submit the view of the world being flat directly resulted from not understanding structure.

During and prior to the exploration era of Columbus; people had observed the sun, moon and stars. Obviously the sun and moon were round in shape Early astronomers using their primitive telescopes observed other celestial bodies and must have noted the roundness of these other stars and planets. Therefore if people really understood structure they would have concluded the most likely shape of the earth was round. Unfortunately, since the concept of structure evaded them and they thought in terms of superstition the only conclusion was the earth was flat, because when they looked toward the horizon they saw the edge of the earth meet the sky. Therefore they didn’t need no stinkin’ structure to prove their authority on the matter.

Hope this helps Gino.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality


What do you know about "magnets?" :rolleyes: ;) :eek: :p

[Show Me the Wire]

Tom:

Gee whiz, this is a horse racing board. Why would I want to talk about magnets?

Also, I submit I only relate my observations as knowledge is an abstraction of the manisfestation of reality. I have no personal observations about magnets, only about magnetism and being attracted to or attracting.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Lefty]

amazin, your joke is weak because it has weak structure. Nobody made me an authority but at one time I had to feed my family by selling jokes, gags, short stories articles; whatever I could and I soon learned what editors would and would not buy. I speak from experience and not from the perch of authority.
And then this rant that fillows about the ice age and we're all going to die bit has nothing to do with writing so is just misdirection; but I can't resist saying this: I got you pegged as a liberal and I thought the liberal rant this yr was global warming and not the ice age. I heard once the Earth was going to go flying into the sun in about a million yrs and I worried about it for weeks until someone explained it was a billion yrs and not a million. dum de dum dum.

[gino]

tom-
don't know much about magnets, but am learning a lot about wingnuts.
gino
ps..the theme song to this thread is When Doves Cry by Prince

[Amazin]

Lefty:

I find it hard to believe you are a SUCCESFUL writer.You rarely get the point.So I sometimes picture you with senility.I'll reiterate.

The picture I painted was that our Earth and the Universe and ouselves are constantly changing.All present structures will die or change.Literature is not exempt from transformation or even death.Everything exist within a changing universe. Polti's 36 plots cannot survive the power of change. Nothing can.

[Lefty]

You try so hard amazin, but no i'm not senile yet. The earth is in constant upheavel and so is literature but the upheavel in literature does exist within certain structures. In mystery writing the Agatha Christy Puzzle plot was very successful. An enigma that is carefully set-up and acted out with little room for characterization. The the hard boiled detective stories came into vogue, but thes changes occurred within certain structure: the elements are still there, i.e. there is murder, someone tries and does solve it.
Besides, when I said your joke structure was weak I was referring to here and now, not a million yrs from now.
BTW, Polti's 36 situations published in 1929 and it is now 2003 and they hold up. Problem is you know nothing of writing and refuse to learn. You have come to embrace my argument without even realizing it(read all your posts)
I have exhausted the subject and you refuse to accept anything i've said(consciously anyway) so I'm going to leave it to the readers to come to their own conclusions or this argument will likely continue through Global warming or the ice age.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE EARTH'S ORBIT HAS DECAYED TO THE POINT THAT IT WILL GO FLYING INTO THE SUN ANY MINUTE.
AMAZIN SITS AT HIS COMPUTER DESPERATELY TRYING TO PERFECT HIS NEW JOKE AND STORY STRUCTURE. ALAS, IT'S TOO LATE. HERE WE GO...ENJOY THE RIDE.

[Amazin]

Foolish Lefty:

Your not taking into account that Polti could not even have develop his 36 plots if it wasnt for the evolution of various writing instruments he used to create his plots.

Imagine Polti chiseling his 36 Plots in stone around 4000B.C..In 700 AD the quill pen was introduced.First they used animal skins to scrape their writing into.Later plant fibers were mashed into a paste to form an improved writing media. Various forms of ink had to be developed.

Papermaking reached Europe around the 12th century.Reproduction of a manuscript was all done by hand until the invention of the printing press in 1450.Just in time for Polti to have Shakespeare start writing his 36 plays in the late 1500's that Polti based his 36 plots on.

Polti's work was courtesy of recent evolution not millions of years ago.I have demonstrated that the very media Polti's used to create his structural ideas have changed due to evolution.Yet you think the evolutionary buck of structure stops here. God is not as limited as you think.

[Tom]

.....Liquid Plumber.

[SandyE]

A man made product, just like paper, pens and what were using to gain the internet are products made by humans, not God. God made the universe our solar system and our planet. He also gave us the tools ae are minds to create things to make our lifes easier. Polti and William Shakespear these guys are from a diferent time and place. They used parchment for paper and quail feathers for pens. They were then the creators of plays and dramas, now you've got Speilburg and others who use a totally diferent medium to show their creativaties on. They did not have TV's back in their day or computers. Are we talking about apples and oranges here Amazin? or what? Was that pinhead comment aimed/geared at me? just curious
Sandy

[Lefty]

all over the plaCE AMAzin... What? You went from writing to Jesus to the Universe back to writing and now you're talking writing instruments? The instrument has nothing to do with the writing or the structure; the instrument is just the means to get the writing from the brain to the papyrus; or the computer screen.
I'm sure Dickens wrote with some sort of quill pen; Erle Stanley Gardner dictated to a secretary, Ludlum and others wrote longhand with pencils and ballpoints, countless others wrote on typewriters and now computers; but Polti's 36 still rules, structure still rules, form changes but writing still needs solid structure.
You've been all over the place essentially trying to change the subject but I stay on point!

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin

..... Papermaking reached Europe around the 12th century.Reproduction of a manuscript was all done by hand until the invention of the printing press in 1450.Just in time for Polti to have Shakespeare start writing his 36 plays in the late 1500's that Polti based his 36 plots on.....

Can YOU tell us about magnets???:confused:

[Amazin]

EVOLUTION That's what I'm talking about.I'm putting Polti's work in the context of evolution.Is that not as clear as Secretariat as a 1-9 shot.

This whole argument is because pinheads say that it can't be done.I say evolution has proved everyone who ever said that about any subject to be wrong.(thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven)It will be done.Lefty says Polti's 36 structures are it.I say you can't say an absolute like that because evolution will change every structure that exists.Polti's 36 structures hold no exemption from the evolutionary process.

My previous illustration was if it wasn't for the evolution of writing media Polti's work would not exist.A no brainer.And just as pen and paper have evolved so will Polti's structures via the force called evolution that is the conveyer belt of all that exists,whether it's Polti's work or a quasar or Jesus Christ or BUBBLEGUM.I'm all over the place? Lefty only in your eyes.YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND a simple analogy.You a self procaimed writer have no understanding of the scheme of things.The first requirement of a GOOD writer.

[Lefty]

amazin, I understand analogys perfectly and you're just all over the place, obfuscating, misdirecting and blubbering. The evolution of technology has nothing whatsover to do with the point at hand which was, did you forget, structure. You say without technology Polti's work would not exist. So what? It does exist. All of literature is highly structured and that's the bottom line. The Greeks knew and developed story structure long before Polti existed so your point is meaningless.
Hey, if your mama had had an abortion you wouldn't exist. But what does it prove? It proves nothing and this latest offroad excursion , into writing utensils,also adds nothing to the discussion.

[Lefty]

BTW, i'm not a self proclaimed writer. Editors have paid me real money for some of my jokes, stories and articles. I managed to buy groceries and feed some kids with that. Nothing self-proclaimed about it.

[gino]

For further information in Rome, contact:
Richard Dicker: (mobile) 39 335-345-629
(Rome, July 14, 1998) - As the Rome conference to create an International Criminal Court (ICC) enters its final days, results of Monday's debate again show a large majority of countries favoring a strong and independent court. According to Richard Dicker of Human Rights Watch, however, "the United States is playing hardball on key issues regarding the prosecutor, war crimes and the court's jurisdiction. It is trying to bend the great majority to its will. This could result in a toothless tribunal that would fail victims."

i thought this thread was starting to wander a bit, so i found a little more wisdom from dick dicker, weighing in on "hardball" and "toothlessness"...
gino

p.s. Ahmadzin', u may want to give D.D. a call, i think you and he may have some common perspective...

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Lefty
BTW, i'm not a self proclaimed writer. Editors have paid me real money for some of my jokes, stories and articles. I managed to buy groceries and feed some kids with that. Nothing self-proclaimed about it.

Point Well Taken Counselor.......Amazin....Your Witness !

[gino]

"Cappuccino is the only small domestic appliance capable of preparing real Italian Cappuccino. Like all Polti products, Cappuccino also comes from an original and exclusive idea that uses an ingenious system to produce rich, thick froth. And the secret of an excellent Cappuccinio is surely its froth, which must be creamy, smooth, soft and tasty, just like Polti's Cappuccino.
Cappuccino Polti can also make excellent American - Style coffee, milkshakes and hot chocolate, thick just like it should be.
For those people who mostly drink Espresso - Coffee Polti has designed Aroma, a complete line of Espresso Coffee machines that use small, practical, pre-packed coffee doses to prepare real espresso coffee. With such good quality and with the experience of the Polti Aroma line of Espresso machines, its easy to start the day with a smile. "

i'm smiling at the thick froth Polti produced in this thread...it seems Polti's 37th Idea was...."Starbuck's"....
gino
chock full o' real nutz

[gino]

"Welcome to the House of Polti, where there is always an air of innovation. As one of Europe’s largest household names, Polti an Italian company has a proven pedigree for manufacturing highly advanced, highly desirable domestic appliances. All of the appliances have been designed to improve the lives of the people who use them. The Polti product philosophy is ‘THE EASIER IT IS, THE HAPPIER YOU ARE’. "

hmmmm.

[gino]

"Polti has gone over the top with this reductionistic approach. In the conclusion, he states that one can only be surprised by a movement from a calm state to a conflict, or from a conflict to calm, or from one conflict to another. Since there are 36 basic conflicts, we have 72 surprises representing transitions to and from calmness. And from one dramatic state to another, each of the 36 states can go to any of the other 35, giving 36*35 = 1260 surprises. Adding these together, Polti concludes that "we cannot ... receive from the drama, or from life, more than 1332 surprises." Good grief!"- Andrew Glassner

evidently Polti never handicapped cheap claimers...
gino
what's 1332 minus the takeout?

[Lefty]

And yet, the 36 embrace virtually everything in literature ever written. The book was written for writers searching for a way to "jumpstart" their imagination when searching for ideas when "blocked"
Pardon the seriousness above to a humor post. I think your answer, Gino, is: 1312, but I don't even think that accts for trainers and the Whales with that last minute ability to bet; oh my!

[gino]

race ten...and the winner is #9..."Lefty"....paid $6.40...
gino
you meet very few horses named amazin'

[Amazin]

Lefty:

What part of the word evolution don't you understand?

[gino]

What part of the word evolution don't you understand?
amazin'-
my guess is "u"...
gino
running low on surprises

[gino]

Subject : Why I fired my secretary
> > > >>
> > > >>Two weeks ago was my 35th birthday, and I wasn't feeling too
hot
that
> > > >>morning anyway.
> > > >>
> > > >>I went to breakfast knowing my wife would be pleasant and say
Happy
> > > >>Birthday," and probably have a present for me.
> > > >>
> > > >>She didn't even say "Good Morning," let alone any "Happy
Birthday."
> > > >>
> > > >>I thought, "Well, that's wives for you, the children will
remember."
> > > >>
> > > >>The children came in to breakfast and didn't say a word.
> > > >>
> > > >>When I started to the office I was feeling pretty low and
despondent.
> > > >>
> > > >>As I walked into my office, my secretary, Janet, said, "Good
morning,
> > > >>boss.
> > > >>Happy irthday."
> > > >>
> > > >>And I felt a little better; someone had remembered.
> > > >>
> > > >>I worked until noon.
> > > >>
> > > >>Then, Janet knocked on my door and said "You know, t's such a
> beautiful
> > > >>day
> > > >>outside and it's your birthday, let's go to lunch, just you and
me."I
> > > >>said,
> > > >>"By George, that's the greatest thing I've heard all day. Let's
go."
> We
> > > >>went
> > > >>to lunch.
> > > >>
> > > >>We didn't go where we normally go; we went out to the country
to a
> > little
> > > >>private place. We had two martinis and enjoyed lunch
tremendously.
> > > >>
> > > >>On the way back to the office, she said, "You know, it's such a
> > beautiful
> > > >>day.
> > > >>
> > > >>We don't need to go back to the office, do we?" I said, "No, I
guess
> > not."
> > > >>
> > > >>She said, "Let's go to my apartment." After arriving at her
apartment
> > she
> > > >>said, "Boss, if you don't mind, I think I'll go into the
bedroom and
> > > >>slip into something more comfortable."
> > > >>
> > > >>"Sure," I excitedly replied.
> > > >>
> > > >>She went into the bedroom and, in about six minutes, she came
out
> > carrying
> > > >>a
> > > >>big birthday cake, followed by my wife, children, and dozens of
our
> > > >>friends,
> > > >>all singing Happy Birthday.
> > > >>And there I sat...on the couch...naked.

[Lefty]

amazin, what part of sticking to the subject don't you understand?
I've been trying to tell you what it takes to sell writing at the marketplace, how all of literature is structured and i get a tour of the universe and its tangental ramifications.

[gino]

I've been trying to tell you what it takes to sell writing at the marketplace, how all of literature is structured and i get a tour of the universe and its tangental ramifications.

"T-tell me 'bout the r-r-ramifications, George," said Lenny.

gino steinbeck

[SandyE]

Because this thread has lead all in circles, and to just keep it alive? I still am questioning that comment about pinheads 'cause I've used it in conjection to something else entirely. Well you know Jockeys'? Ooops I repeated myself again. Besides the point someone hasn't told me and everyone else what or whom he's referring to when he uses the word pinhead.Is he referring to Jockeys' or just the avereage shmoe on the street? But what get's me is that I haven't seen Amazin's name in any thread outside of those here in the off-topic forum, now why's that? Does anyone know?

[gino]

becuz, quite simply, he's amazing...
gino
also you meet very few japanese guys named "Rusty"

[SandyE]

That's so true, and very funny to boot. hehehe
:cool:

[gino]

i'm sure amazin' can help me out here, but how come the Iraqui people are going to get to see fotos of the late, not-so-great Uday and Qray and meanwhile millions of Nascar fans still haven't got to sneak a peek at Dale's autopsy pics?
gino
All American Boy, with a twist
if u like car crashes, watch the Phillipine News Channel
whoooeee

[Amazin]

Quote from Sandy"But what get's me is that I haven't seen Amazin's name in any thread outside of those here in the off-topic forum, now why's that? Does anyone know?

Sandy,I don't mean to call you a pinhead but that was a pinhead remark.A pinhead talks before knowing what he/she is talking about.I'm currently in the following horseracing threads:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6826

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6947

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6846

You can also check my profile for all my other posts.Sorry to dissapoint your low brow idea of me.

Lefty:

It is my conclusion that you don't understand evolution.Cannot proceed due to that mental block.

[Lefty]

amazin, I agree, you certainly have a mental block as you can't even stay on subject. Perhaps you are one of the newly discovered adult victims of ADS. I 'm talking literary structure and you went to the Universe, Jesus, and now evolution. Structure and evolution I was talking about the structure of your joke as it currently exists. For instance you went into writing instruments but that's just the vehicle to get the writing from brain to the cave wall, papyrus, paper or the computer screen. Writing is done in the brain. Structure will always be with us, especially in literature. The Greek dramatists conceived most of the writing structure still in use today and yes, it has evolved a little. But in critiquing your joke i was talking about structure as used TODAY not a million yrs from now. Hey, maybe in a million yrs it will finally be funny, but I have doubts.
Polti's situations have held up since before 1929 they were only committed to paper in '29 and as you yourself noted Shakespeare used them in the 1500's. Polti merely catalogued them and the elements that drive a good plot and you can't find a published work that doesn't have one or more of the 36 situations. Then you go off on a tangent about evolution which is CLEARLY not what we are discussing.
Note: Man has evolved from the neanderthal but we still have the same structure: i.e. DNA .
But whatever literature evolves into it has nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand, i.e. structure as it currently exists. And no matter what it evolves into, I contend Polti's 36 will always be relevent.
If you can't continue because of your ADS or Alzheimers or whatever, I fully understand. It's been fun.

[SandyE]

Trust me when I say I was bored that day I was. As for a pinhead comment? Don't think so and I do believe there was a question of mine that you still have avoided to answer. Other then the pinhead comment. So is that why people have been calling Jockeys' pinheads for well ever ya think? Your profile doesn't give any indication of well you.
later,

[Amazin]

Sandy:
What question have I been avoiding?

Lefty:

Evolution doesn't need a million years.It happens everyday.

[Lefty]

In that case, it still hasn't one iota to do with the discussion of structure. You've been everywhere and arrived nowhere.

[Amazin]

So structure doesn't evolve?36 Plots just appeared out of nowhere?

[Tom]

37. Unexplained thread closings.
38. Sudden plot appearences
39. Witty comebacks.

[Lefty]

amazin, you're so lost in this thread you don't know where you're at. remember, at first you pooh poohed structure now you're trying to figure its evolution. we've been around and around and around. Bet you like Merry-Go-Rounds.
Polt Forever! Structure forever! It exists it evolves it shakes like jello. Pay the nickel and enjoy the show.

[Amazin]

And now the scripture according to Lefty:

Heaven and Earth shall pass away due to laws of evolution.But Lefty's 36 Polti structures shall never be affected by any manmade or supernatural force.

Thus spaketh Lefty.

(Is this man deranged or what?)

[Lefty]

amazin, Huzzah! At last, you've gotten it right.
Don't forget to put a little somethin' in the collection plate on the way out.

[gino]

amazin, Huzzah! At last, you've gotten it right.
Don't forget to put a little somethin' in the collection plate on the way out.
-Lefty

we used to hold our grubby little empty paws over the top of the collection basket and then bang the bottom...sounded like u had dumped a ton of change in there... the nuns had me pegged as a pagan baby and they were pretty much right on, but i do remember a few biblical ditties and i think amazin' will be back..."as a dog returneth to its vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly..."

rev gino

[gino]

lefty-

i just finished reading the Toga Kid thread(it took me so long that while i was reading it TVG optioned it for their first Reality Show), and i'm not sure, but i think Polti went 36/36...
wow,
gino

[Amazin]

Gino:

I'm sure none of my contributions qualified under anything Polti according to the scriptures of Lefty's Poltirgist plots.

If you note in the thread(Toga kid) I am trying to bait Pa into closing that disgusting thread.He resists until I finally get a reaction when I inserted my ego,(just like last time) when I said"I have the answer"(which I really don't)Now what would Lefty categorize my bait as in regard to Polti.It's a twisted plot you see.

[gino]

Amazin'-
when you inserted your ego, did u hear anybody say "is it in"?

gino
wheeeeeeee!!!!

[Amazin]

Gino

If I start responding to slime like that I would want Pa to close this thread too.Stuff like that,besides being pointless is also tasteless,goes nowhere,infuriates members and makes you look like an idiot.

[gino]

jeezus, amazer-
it was a f^&(**&^&ing joke, you f%^&^%ing moron...your twisted sense of humor is your most appealing trait, set it free...
gino
emotional cripple

[Suff]

Originally posted by gino
...
gino
emotional cripple

Your a Joke. Gino, Suck my Ego.

[DJofSD]

Hey, is this a private fight or can any one join in?

Jesus thought outside the box. He'd have made an excellent handicapper <g>.

DJofSD

[DJofSD]

Gino,

I don't care what your political stripe is or if you're a pin head - you're damn funny!

Keep up the excellent work.

DJofSD