Simulcast Facilities

[Just Retired]

Okay, here we go with another one of my dumb questions, maybe we can get some answers out for a lively discussion before anybody resorts to name calling again.

How do you view them?

(reminder, my familiarity is mainly with SoCal, so I know about the simulcast facilities on and off-track there)

Should they be provided as a convenience for the players?

Should they be in locations where they can be profit centers for the racetrack?

What if you saw the bottom line, and they weren't taking in enough money to make payroll and keep the lights on, would that change your opinion any?

What about opening simulcast facilities for racing across the country, when you have no local racing being conducted on your circuit, i.e. Tuesdays in California.

thanks, hope this leads to some healthy discussion on this topic that I haven't seen posted here before, if so, just gimme a link, thanks!

[andymays]

If you can't put out a product that people want at the right price then you should close the doors. Raising the take on a bad product gets you nowhere.

[johnhannibalsmith]

In the State in which I currently live, if an OTB loses money, the track owner (also the owner of the OTB network) simply closes them unless the horsemen make up the difference in what his records dictate as a loss.

Oh yeah, it is highly illegal to place a wager anywhere except the track or an OTB.

I don't want to complain about the downside to this conundrum and draw your ire, so I'll remain positive and state that as long as stupidity like the above continues, I suppose OTBs are supercalafragialisticexpialidocious given the alternative of an indictment.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

If it isn't profitable for the tracks, they shouldn't exist bottom line. But it is my understanding that in California they don't give players all that much choice, even at the track. I think that needs to be explored before they are deemed unprofitable.

OTBs are dinosaurs and unneeded in my opinion. With computer technology where it is today, there is no reason to have to go to an OTB to watch and bet on horses. Then again, I can easily do without the social interaction an OTB has to offer, and I can see for some old timers that this could be OK for a few. But in the end, if they don't make money, they shouldn't exist.

[Just Retired]

If you can't put out a product that people want at the right price then you should close the doors. Raising the take on a bad product gets you nowhere.

Andy,

Does every question get the answer of TAKEOUT IS TOO HIGH?

Dang, okay given that, what do you think about Faiplex, Antelope Valley and Surfside simulcast facilities, are they a good thing for the people or not?

And at what cost? Are the simulcast facilities getting a large enough slice of the pie in order to run a facility that you'd like to go to with state of the art bigscreens etc.

Or......should they be shut down and the players can find other alternatives?

thanks.

[andymays]

Andy,

Does every question get the answer of TAKEOUT IS TOO HIGH?

Dang, okay given that, what do you think about Faiplex, Antelope Valley and Surfside simulcast facilities, are they a good thing for the people or not?

And at what cost? Are the simulcast facilities getting a large enough slice of the pie in order to run a facility that you'd like to go to with state of the art bigscreens etc.

Or......should they be shut down and the players can find other alternatives?

thanks.


Surfside is a good facility. The problem is that it's a pain in the ass to drive there through the traffic. On top of that there is usually some function at the fair grounds that makes it more difficult.

They opened up the rules so restaurants and bars can take bets didn't they? Where are they? I think we only have one new one at a card club. I'm told that's been a success.

[Just Retired]

If it isn't profitable for the tracks, they shouldn't exist bottom line. But it is my understanding that in California they don't give players all that much choice, even at the track. I think that needs to be explored before they are deemed unprofitable.

OTBs are dinosaurs and unneeded in my opinion. With computer technology where it is today, there is no reason to have to go to an OTB to watch and bet on horses. Then again, I can easily do without the social interaction an OTB has to offer, and I can see for some old timers that this could be OK for a few. But in the end, if they don't make money, they shouldn't exist.

Thanks HP, I'm inclined to agree with the basic premise of closing if they can't show a profit, but is 2% or whatever of the pie, the right amount of stake to give them a chance for survival?

As for the social interaction of attending LIVE events (even if it is on TV rather than the solitude of your couch) I think that's what everybody wants to see, the yelling screaming jumping up and down by hundreds in one location. Or not? I know I enjoy meeting friends and exchanging handicapping ideas, solving the Middle East War and world hunger between races, but that's old school I guess.

[Just Retired]

They opened up the rules so restaurants and bars can take bets didn't they? Where are they? I think we only have one new one at a card club. I'm told that's been a success.

Andy, you're the proud new owner of a restaurant/bar.
If you could cater to a racefan and get him to come to your bar, and his handle was $1,000 for the day pushed through the machines, would the cost/benefit be worth it to you?

[andymays]

Andy, you're the proud new owner of a restaurant/bar.
If you could cater to a racefan and get him to come to your bar, and his handle was $1,000 for the day pushed through the machines, would the cost/benefit be worth it to you?


Depends on how much he eats and drinks while he's there. If he's a stiff then there isn't much benefit.

The trick is to get people to the facility.

How about sports betting on Track or Satellite only(not online).

How about reducing takeout on track only. How about a 50% reduction in take at Santa Anita for one weekend? You guys always want Horseplayers to take a shot how about you taking a shot with a 50% off takeout sale at Santa Anita? You'd get quite a few people driving there for the weekend. On track handle would go up at least 5 times.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Thanks HP, I'm inclined to agree with the basic premise of closing if they can't show a profit, but is 2% or whatever of the pie, the right amount of stake to give them a chance for survival?

As for the social interaction of attending LIVE events (even if it is on TV rather than the solitude of your couch) I think that's what everybody wants to see, the yelling screaming jumping up and down by hundreds in one location. Or not? I know I enjoy meeting friends and exchanging handicapping ideas, solving the Middle East War and world hunger between races, but that's old school I guess.
It is hard to say what a restaurant or what a stand alone simulcast center should receive on each bet. I think that since every state is different, it is a very difficult question to answer.

If a racetrack or horsemen's group or ADW owned the simulcast center, I don't see why those in question wouldn't receive what they would if in the case of racetrack, the whole shot minus state taxes, or if a horsemen group or ADW owned it, I don't see why their gross profits would be different that what they would receive through a simulcast agreement.

If it is at Joe's Restaurant Bar and Grill though, it is a way for Joe to get more business, so a much a smaller rate for Joe can be negotiated I imagine.

[Robert Goren]

I think there is a place for them. In areas that are quite a ways from a race track they can serve a purpose. I think put one ever other bar or cafe is a big waste of time and money. I know here in Nebraska, they are look at them because in a few years Lincoln will be without a track.

[Just Retired]

Depends on how much he eats and drinks while he's there. If he's a stiff then there isn't much benefit.

The trick is to get people to the facility.

How about sports betting on Track or Satellite only(not online).

How about reducing takeout on track only. How about a 50% reduction in take at Santa Anita for one weekend? You guys always want Horseplayers to take a shot how about you taking a shot with a 50% off takeout sale at Santa Anita? You'd get quite a few people driving there for the weekend. On track handle would go up at least 5 times.


"You Guys".......what in the hell are you talking about?

Okay, let's play a fanasy game, you've already told me the 405 freeway is a pain in the ass to get to, what if the takeout was 15% on every wager at Del Mar this coming season. How many times would you attend live racing because of that?

[andymays]

"You Guys".......what in the hell are you talking about?

Okay, let's play a fanasy game, you've already told me the 405 freeway is a pain in the ass to get to, what if the takeout was 15% on every wager at Del Mar this coming season. How many times would you attend live racing because of that?


I refuse to go to Del Mar until they get rid of the junk surface. High prices and Miss Cougar contests don't cut it.

You want to get poeple to the track with 5 or 10 or 20 grand in their pockets. A big reduction in on track takeout would do it.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... How many times would you attend live racing because of that?

Not to speak on Andy's behalf, but you forgot to mention whether or not polytrack was still part of the equation... :p

ETA - Andy beat me to it... laf...

[Just Retired]

I refuse to go to Del Mar until they get rid of the junk surface. High prices and Miss Cougar contests don't cut it.

You want to get poeple to the track with 5 or 10 or 20 grand in their pockets. A big reduction in on track takeout would do it.

Gee whiz Andy, stop making my point.
I just agreed to reduce the takeout if you'd come to LIVE racing, and you immediately attack Miss Cougar, talk about moving goal posts!

[andymays]

Gee whiz Andy, stop making my point.
I just agreed to reduce the takeout if you'd come to LIVE racing, and you immediately attack Miss Cougar, talk about roving goal posts!

12.5% and you might have a deal if you put in a dirt surface.

The best advertisement is word of mouth. When people win they talk about it. Not many people win with high take.

[DeanT]

There is a bar owned by Woodbine that is an OTB. They dont mention it much in the ads, but it is quite the place for sports and stuff. There are a handful of players there daily, but not a ton. I guess they are trying for some crossover. Probably 50 or so TV's, a few tellers and five or six betting machines.


http://www.bizbash.com/content/resource/ResourceImage/big/r791179Image5.jpg

[Horseplayersbet.com]

There is a bar owned by Woodbine that is an OTB. They dont mention it much in the ads, but it is quite the place for sports and stuff. There are a handful of players there daily, but not a ton. I guess they are trying for some crossover. Probably 50 or so TV's, a few tellers and five or six betting machines.


http://www.bizbash.com/content/resource/ResourceImage/big/r791179Image5.jpg
Doesn't look you have to wait too long to get served food :)

[Grits]

What a great place, Dean. I could be happy as a clam sitting there all afternoon.

[andymays]

Doesn't look you have to wait too long to get served food :)


It's empty because of the high takeout at Woodbine. ;)

[Just Retired]

You want to get poeple to the track with 5 or 10 or 20 grand in their pockets. A big reduction in on track takeout would do it.


Okay, Andy meet Bob, Bob....Andy.

Bob has $20 grand in his pocket right now, he runs with the Hollywood crowd where cash is no problem and he's read stories about Bing Crosby, Dick Van Patten, Mickey Rooney and others before him enjoying a day at the races. He's been to the Santa Anita Derby and the Hollywood Gold Cup and has enjoyed success both times.

But now, you Andy, have had a chance to bend his ear, and you explain to him that takeout rates are too high, but even more importantly the artificial surfaces shouldn't be wagered on. But Bob says he'd really like a day at the races, it's early September, and he's got this $20 large in his pocket. So Bob says, Where is Pomona Andy? I hear they've got dirt, do you think I'd like to take my wad there for some action?

[Just Retired]

Beautiful facility, is that called something like Shanks by chance?

[andymays]

Okay, Andy meet Bob, Bob....Andy.

Bob has $20 grand in his pocket right now, he runs with the Hollywood crowd where cash is no problem and he's read stories about Bing Crosby, Dick Van Patten, Mickey Rooney and others before him enjoying a day at the races. He's been to the Santa Anita Derby and the Hollywood Gold Cup and has enjoyed success both times.

But now, you Andy, have had a chance to bend his ear, and you explain to him that takeout rates are too high, but even more importantly the artificial surfaces shouldn't be wagered on. But Bob says he'd really like a day at the races, it's early September, and he's got this $20 large in his pocket. So Bob says, Where is Pomona Andy? I hear they've got dirt, do you think I'd like to take my wad there for some action?


Bob is betting offshore or somewhere that gives rebates.

For me there was nothing better than a weekend at Santa Anita before Pro Ride.

[johnhannibalsmith]

This Bob guy sounds more and more like me the more I read about him.

ETA - damn it Andy, stop messing up my posts with quick replies... I no longer remind myself of Bob... I've never been off any shore...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Beautiful facility, is that called something like Shanks by chance?
With all those fancy OTBs in Toronto, prime time television coverage, free coverage of races on digital cable, and their own ADW, Woodbine has been unable to attract newbies to the track faster than they are losing their old players.
Purses are great. Thanks to slots, 1/4 of what is bet in Canada goes towards purses.
But on a Wednesday night or Thursday afternoon Turf Paradise on Monday and Tuesday afternoons is comparable in total handle.

The reason why Woodbine can't get newbies is that they fail to compete with other forms of gambling. They've chased their big bettors to play offshore.

The reason their handle increased last year was because of they were featured on TVG for the first time and for the first time, they had their PPs appear in the US editions of the DRF.

They simply shifted old money from other tracks in the US, but as far as domestic growth goes, they were and continually are a massive failure.

[Just Retired]

Bob is betting offshore or somewhere that gives rebates.

For me there was nothing better than a weekend at Santa Anita before Pro Ride.


Man oh man, it's tough to get a straight answer outta you, huh?

Bob goes to the Cayman Islands to drink, party and get laid, not because of a 7% kickback on his exotic wagers.

The question was a simple one.....the NEW CASUAL PLAYER THAT NEEDS TWO RUBBERBANDS, do you want to take him to Fairplex for real dirt or not?

[Just Retired]

With all those fancy OTBs in Toronto, prime time television coverage, free coverage of races on digital cable, and their own ADW, Woodbine has been unable to attract newbies to the track faster than they are losing their old players.
Purses are great. Thanks to slots, 1/4 of what is bet in Canada goes towards purses.
But on a Wednesday night or Thursday afternoon Turf Paradise on Monday and Tuesday afternoons is comparable in total handle.

The reason why Woodbine can't get newbies is that they fail to compete with other forms of gambling. They've chased their big bettors to play offshore.

The reason their handle increased last year was because of they were featured on TVG for the first time and for the first time, they had their PPs appear in the US editions of the DRF.

They simply shifted old money from other tracks in the US, but as far as domestic growth goes, they were and continually are a massive failure.
Or......maybe their quality of horseflesh sucks day in and day out?

[andymays]

Man oh man, it's tough to get a straight answer outta you, huh?

Bob goes to the Cayman Islands to drink, party and get laid, not because of a 7% kickback on his exotic wagers.

The question was a simple one.....the NEW CASUAL PLAYER THAT NEEDS TWO RUBBERBANDS, do you want to take him to Fairplex for real dirt or not?

If you want Bob to go to Fairplex it's fine with me. Do I want to take him? Probably not.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Or......maybe their quality of horseflesh sucks day in and day out?
Nope, even according to you, higher purses should take of quality, right?

It is because they go out of their way to make sure that they take as much as they can from players as quickly as they can.

There are no long term winners who bet directly into the Woodbine pools.

The big bettors are all aware of other alternatives with much lower rakes, and bet offshore/or at rebaters.

Their field size is great. They should be growing in leaps and bounds....but they aren't...and it all has to do with high takeout.

[Just Retired]

If you want Bob to go to Fairplex it's fine with me. Do I want to take him? Probably not.

Do you think he'd enjoy himself with the real dirt YOU recommended for his day at the races? Might he come back for more? Cash is not a problem if you know what about Bob.

[Just Retired]

Nope, even according to you, higher purses should take of quality, right?




Hold it right there, I didn't even read the rest of your post.
I NEVER EVER said higher purses = higher quality.
And if I did, I must've been lying ;)

[andymays]

Do you think he'd enjoy himself with the real dirt YOU recommended for his day at the races? Might he come back for more? Cash is not a problem if you know what about Bob.


If Bob likes betting Pedroza at 1-5 every race then he will return.

[Just Retired]

If Bob likes betting Pedroza at 1-5 every race then he will return.

but Andy....its dirt, real freakin dirt, didn't you tell me.....

[andymays]

but Andy....its dirt, real freakin dirt, didn't you tell me.....


It's real dirt at Gulfstream and Saratoga too and we don't have to fight the traffic.

Just Retired, it's been real. Good luck with the rest of the crew!

[Bettowin]

I was in our local sports bar Friday night having a good time watching games and bs'ing with my buddies and just for the helluva it we played Keno which has over a 50% takeout in our state. The bartender knows I like horseracing so he puts it on one TV whenever I am in there and I got to thinking if they can run Keno, lottery and other state run games in every sports bar why not have a computer tied to and ADW or track and take bets? Even a capped WPS would expose many players to the game and if that were available Friday night we would have had 10-15 playing right there.

From a technology standpoint it shouldn't be too difficult if you had cards just like Keno or the lottery and the bartender just ran it through the machine. Payouts up to ?? amount would be paid out at the location.

I know there are laws governing gambling but if horseracing is going to survive it needs to have exposure like other games have.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Hold it right there, I didn't even read the rest of your post.
I NEVER EVER said higher purses = higher quality.
And if I did, I must've been lying ;)
I suggest you read and try to comprehend all my posts.

That being said, you believe that high quality stake races will attract players. Empirical evidence suggest otherwise.
And besides, if not for greater purses, how do you expect to run high quality stake races?

In theory, shouldn't the best horses be attracted to the bigger purses?

Does Woodbine not attract world class horses especially for their biggest events?

My point is that newbies aren't created by that.

They are created by word of mouth by regulars, and their enticement is that you can make money...it works for a day, but what it needs is visible winners, not fatter purses, not stake races, but visible winners (which means lower takeout).

[Robert Goren]

Off shore, really, Which one? I looked in to them a couple of years ago. They looked pretty seedy to me. I would not bet there with Boxcar's money.

[Hanover1]

Dear Bob: Since its action you want, and its the ponies you lust after, then you already know the pitfalls as your creator pointed out. Learn to handicap, and if you consider it a business venture when you wager, then the take-out issue is a real one...but if all you want is the live action and thrills of firing on a few while contemplating your retirement, then forget about what others think, after all, you were in management for years, right???? Pump-dump and smile alot, its the American way. :D

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Off shore, really, Which one? I looked in to them a couple of years ago. They looked pretty seedy to me. I would not bet there with Boxcar's money.
Offshore betting shops like Pinnacle gets lots of Canadian action...but nowadays lots of it at Betfair.

[Just Retired]

Offshore betting shops like Pinnacle gets lots of Canadian action...but nowadays lots of it at Betfair.

Are offshore betting shops good for the USA game?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Are offshore betting shops good for the game?From who's point of view? They keep players watching horse racing versus not watching it all if they were to disappear. By these bettors watching a playing, they might introduce people to the game who may not play offshore, and maybe their kids or spouse, may learn about horse racing so that if racing finally decides to compete and grow, they will be there.

The fact offshores exist and attract so much betting though, shows that lower pricing is needed.

Would I prefer all bets to go into the domestic pools? Yes. But reality says that isn't the case.

Are offshores good for the customers? Yes. Good for the horsemen and tracks? No. But horsemen and track's lack of appeasing the customer has created this niche....and I'll just say, it looks good on them.

[Robert Goren]

Offshore betting shops like Pinnacle gets lots of Canadian action...but nowadays lots of it at Betfair.Neither of them take betters from the United States.

[Stillriledup]

Depends on how much he eats and drinks while he's there. If he's a stiff then there isn't much benefit.

The trick is to get people to the facility.

How about sports betting on Track or Satellite only(not online).

How about reducing takeout on track only. How about a 50% reduction in take at Santa Anita for one weekend? You guys always want Horseplayers to take a shot how about you taking a shot with a 50% off takeout sale at Santa Anita? You'd get quite a few people driving there for the weekend. On track handle would go up at least 5 times.


Racetracks are the only businesses who never have a 'sale' on the prices of bets. Have a sale at Santa Anita one day. Have a sale on the 3rd race exacta, takeout rate is 8% and see if the pools get larger.

How about THIS idea:

Lets say the 3rd race exacta pool at Santa Anita on a Saturday typically handles 140k. (have no idea, just using this as an example). Why not make an announcement that for every 10k OVER 140 that this particular exacta pool receives, they lower the takeout 1/2 percent. If they handle 160, the handle goes down 1% and so on and so forth. Give the bettors incentive to make those betting pools as high as possible, the higher the pool, the lower the takeout.

[chickenhead]

Should they be provided as a convenience for the players?

I don't think they should be run as charities, if that's what you mean.

Should they be in locations where they can be profit centers for the racetrack?

All the OTB's I'm aware of here in Norcal are at racetracks -- but your customers could generally care less. If they are convenient, they might go, if they aren't convenient they won't.

What if you saw the bottom line, and they weren't taking in enough money to make payroll and keep the lights on, would that change your opinion any?

They should either close down, or seek other ways to improve their bottom line (better simulcast options, negotiate to pay less of a fee for the signal, lay off all the tellers and use voucher only, whatever they can come up with to try.) No different than any other business.

What about opening simulcast facilities for racing across the country, when you have no local racing being conducted on your circuit, i.e. Tuesdays in California.

Like most people in California, I work on Tuesday. But I never go to simulcast anyway, ADW provides a better experience than simulcast for me. Race replays, rebates, all the pool info, computer and internet, my own refrigerator, etc. There is no way, imo, that simulcast can compete with that. My simulcast center is better equipped, and lower cost than the industry's.

[Just Retired]

Like most people in California, I work on Tuesday. But I never go to simulcast anyway, ADW provides a better experience than simulcast for me. Race replays, rebates, all the pool info, computer and internet, my own refrigerator, etc. There is no way, imo, that simulcast can compete with that. My simulcast center is better equipped, and lower cost than the industry's.


thanks, question about competing for your action......if on-track had lower takeout than your local similcast facility or your ADW, would it get you to the racetrack in person?

[chickenhead]

if on-track had lower takeout than your local similcast facility or your ADW, would it get you to the racetrack in person?

I go to a few different tracks a year, probably 10 days maximum. Generally as a fan, and to socialize. It's pretty unlikely most anything within reason would make me go more than that. Would I bet more, however, while I'm there (with a lower takeout)? Sure.

[Stillriledup]

thanks, question about competing for your action......if on-track had lower takeout than your local similcast facility or your ADW, would it get you to the racetrack in person?

Depends on how much lower. If it was 5% than the racetracks would be packed. If it was 1/100th of a percentage point, than it probably won't get anyone.

[johnhannibalsmith]

To do such a thing would bring about public awareness of takeout and what it means to bettors and horsemen and that in and of itself is enough to convince most decision makers that it isn't worth the unintended consequence.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

To do such a thing would bring about public awareness of takeout and what it means to bettors and horsemen and that in and of itself is enough to convince most decision makers that it isn't worth the unintended consequence.
I think that most have it all wrong. An announcement of a takeout reduction or increase is not something that will appeal or deter most (maybe more than a year or two ago thanks to HANA's education efforts), but the reality comes out over time simply due to ECONOMICS 101.
The closer the takeout is to the optimum takeout amount, the more that will be bet. The further one track strays from the optimum takeout amount, the less that will be bet. And this is true regardless of horseplayers awareness or not.

So an on track takeout reduction will only attract the informed, and it might appeal to a few who decide there is a bargain to be had...an excuse to go to the track for the day thanks to higher payouts for the day. Will it attract new players....not likely. Will a takeout reduction across the board at all tracks attract new players? Very likely over time.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... An announcement of a takeout reduction or increase is not something that will appeal or deter most...
So an on track takeout reduction will only attract the informed, and it might appeal to a few who decide there is a bargain to be had...

Yeah... the theory behind the justification for most increases (or failing to offer a decrease) being that the public at large has no comprehension of takeout and how it adversely effects their experience at its current (or proposed new) level.

There is a clear benefit in not publicizing a temporary or narrowly-focused (ie on-track only) reduction. That benefit is not heightening the awareness of those that don't consider takeout.

Why do you continue to heighten awareness about takeout? I'm guessing because the more people understand the issue, the more that it is an issue for people. That's good and I commend you - it is only through being made aware of its impact in forums like this that I have grown to consider it a major issue.

So certainly it does not behoove the industry at large to thrust the issue of takeout reduction into the spotlight and illuminate the fact that they are well beyond the optimal pricing point and are raking far more than most of the competing forms of legalized gambling.

It's a good idea, but so is simple takeout reductions en masse and that approach doesn't shed light on the fact that people are getting raped on "non-discount days" or at "non-discount venues".

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I sincerely want this game to grow. I want to see it become more mainstream again. I want players to at least have a chance to make a living betting horses.

This could be achieved with drastic takeout reductions across the industry.

What will result is higher purses, more money for the tracks, and satisfied gamblers who know they at least have a chance.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I sincerely want this game to grow. I want to see it become more mainstream again. I want players to at least have a chance to make a living betting horses.

This could be achieved with drastic takeout reductions across the industry.

What will result is higher purses, more money for the tracks, and satisfied gamblers who know they at least have a chance.

Five sentences, each of which I completely agree with.

[BlueShoe]

But it is my understanding that in California they don't give players all that much choice, even at the track. I think that needs to be explored before they are deemed unprofitable.

OTBs are dinosaurs and unneeded in my opinion. With computer technology where it is today, there is no reason to have to go to an OTB to watch and bet on horses.
Concur with the first opinion, strongly disagree with the second. Have commented in the past about Californias restrictive simulcast menu compared to other states. Close the otb sites, however, and it would be the death stroke for an already ailing industry. Most otb patrons are older men set in their ways. Most older men do not own or use computers. The social interaction of going to the track or otb site is a very important factor that should not be underestimated. Close the simo facilities and most of the patrons will not switch to online wagering, nor will they make the long treks to live racing, they will just quit and stay home. Like the OP, am a SoCal resident, and, at one time or another, have patronized just about every otb facility in my part of the state. Some places are well run pleasant sites and others are dumps. Failure and closing is a possibility, Santa Barbara shut down at the end of Oak Tree. On the other hand, since Fairplex moved into their new building with free parking and admission, they are doing quite well, although they are being helped out by their new popular sports bar and restaurant section. The mini satellite at the Commerce Card Club is also flying, the place was packed on a recent saturday visit.

[Robert Goren]

I think people who bet on the computer are different breed than those who go to simulcast sites. I know several people who are out there most of the time. They have all tried ADWs and didn't like them. In fact I believe that people who now use ADWs would go to the simulcast sites. They did before ADWs existed. JMO

[Bettowin]

I think people who bet on the computer are different breed than those who go to simulcast sites. I know several people who are out there most of the time. They have all tried ADWs and didn't like them. In fact I believe that people who now use ADWs would go to the simulcast sites. They did before ADWs existed. JMO

True. ADW sites also track everything which in most instances is good. But from a ROI perspective it's real cut and dried. You see how much you have bet over a time period and more importantly how much you have deposited and lost. Players that aren't winning players don't really want to be reminded how much they have lost over a year, or two, or three and by being live they take money out of their pocket bet it win some and lose more but really never keep track. I would bet most people that bet in person would greatly underestimate the amount they have lost because they don't keep track:)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

True. ADW sites also track everything which in most instances is good. But from a ROI perspective it's real cut and dried. You see how much you have bet over a time period and more importantly how much you have deposited and lost. Players that aren't winning players don't really want to be reminded how much they have lost over a year, or two, or three and by being live they take money out of their pocket bet it win some and lose more but really never keep track. I would bet most people that bet in person would greatly underestimate the amount they have lost because they don't keep track:)
I think you are onto something there. Most players don't keep track of what they bet and cash. Back when you had to go to the track, you would lose a $5 or $20 bill at a time, no idea how much it really added up to. You'd leave with cash, and if you had enough in your wallet, you'd go the next time, and the next time couldn't come quick enough for many.
When you cashed, it was like winning, even if you were a net loser, which most people are because it is the nature of the game.
Nowadays, a person realizes he has made x amount of deposits in the ADW account, and because of the reality of the game, rarely is able to take money out...some don't for lengthy periods of time.
ADW players may be more realistic these days, looking at racing as a losing proposition more than ever before.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I think you are onto something there. Most players don't keep track of what they bet and cash. Back when you had to go to the track, you would lose a $5 or $20 bill at a time, no idea how much it really added up to. You'd leave with cash, and if you had enough in your wallet, you'd go the next time, and the next time couldn't come quick enough for many.
When you cashed, it was like winning, even if you were a net loser, which most people are because it is the nature of the game.
Nowadays, a person realizes he has made x amount of deposits in the ADW account, and because of the reality of the game, rarely is able to take money out...some don't for lengthy periods of time.
ADW players may be more realistic these days, looking at racing as a losing proposition more than ever before.

The last two posts are great. :ThmbUp:

[2low]

oops - wrong post

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The last two posts are great. :ThmbUp:
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
I remember going to the bank machine at the track, taking out a couple of hundred. Even if I continued to lose, I'd make sure I kept pizza money.
Wound up with an expensive pizza many times.

Nowadays, you deposit a couple of hundred in an ADW usually by credit card. You might leave some in there for the next day if you have a bad day, but you normally blow the money eventually.
By the time you get your credit card statement, you might have nothing in your ADW account, and you didn't even wind up having a pizza to show for it.

Now I know why some ADWs give away points for toasters and air miles.

[johnhannibalsmith]

It's actually one of the reasons why I don't like playing through an ADW. I play much more confidently when I'm unaware of my "balance". I have never been a good record keeper and I like it that way. My goal as a bettor has never been to show a long term positive ROI, it is to end the individual day with more money than I started with.

When my long-term progress is presented to me, I lose focus on my short-term goal, whether the long term figure is positive or negative - it still impacts my play. And for others, as the one post alluded to, I'm sure it impacts their perception of their own ability and calls into question the benefit of their playing.

[2low]

The under 40s are not going to keep this sport afloat at the track or at the OTB $10 parking facility full of smelly cranky people.

Internet or busto IMO.

Oh, and the next generation will be calculating their version of fair odds on their computers and flushing them through the conditional wagering utility, playing whichever tracks are running that day without much discretion. Takeout matters more than anything if you want a slice of this pie.

[castaway01]

I was in our local sports bar Friday night having a good time watching games and bs'ing with my buddies and just for the helluva it we played Keno which has over a 50% takeout in our state. The bartender knows I like horseracing so he puts it on one TV whenever I am in there and I got to thinking if they can run Keno, lottery and other state run games in every sports bar why not have a computer tied to and ADW or track and take bets? Even a capped WPS would expose many players to the game and if that were available Friday night we would have had 10-15 playing right there.

From a technology standpoint it shouldn't be too difficult if you had cards just like Keno or the lottery and the bartender just ran it through the machine. Payouts up to ?? amount would be paid out at the location.

I know there are laws governing gambling but if horseracing is going to survive it needs to have exposure like other games have.

I think you answered your own question when you said, "I know there are laws governing gambling." States don't want to be perceived as favoring something like horse racing, and the lobbyists for other sources of legal gambling (casinos) have a hell of a lot more funds to "donate" to the politicians to keep things the way they are now. They're not going to support anything that makes it easier to bet on horse racing and could possibly take a buck out of the slots. And in the states where the tracks have slots, they're not going to do anything to rock the boat and screw up that gravy train.