With All Due Respect....

[Just Retired]

Okay, so this is my first post, it's been a long time coming so forgive the following diatribe, I know I'm gonna take some shots because of it. But, after watching here for quite a while before deciding to post, then I had to get a "legitimate" email address because apparently my hotmail account wasn't good enough, then there were several anxious days of FBI background checks and finally I got the okay to post from the administrator, so I'm taking my swings, thanks very much.

With All Due Respect.....many of you are the problem with racing

A little background.....as my name implies, I'm recently retired for a few months from management in major corporate life and I've been performing my due diligence into finding a hobby that I can really sink my teeth into. I know a few things about a thing or two that I've dabbled in over the years, but I want to take it to the next level of involvement, education and enjoyment.

For a point of reference, I want to introduce you to my 4 neighbors. The guy that lives in the house to my right is an avid golfer, is a member in good standing at the local country club and visits various courses whenever he goes on vacation and always comes back with great stories. My neighbor on the left is an avid sport fisherman. He has a small boat that he takes to local lakes, enters bass tournaments, wins somes loses some, but always comes back home with some great stories to tell. The guy directly across the street likes to play slots, specifically video poker. He tells me about the various machines and how to spot the ones with better payout tables, sometimes he wins and sometimes he loses, but he always comes home with some great stories from a daily trip to an Indian Casino or a vacation in Vegas. Then there's Joe, we share the backyard fence and have spent many a day discussing his passion, the ponies. If I didn't know better I'd think he might be a regular on-line poster, if not here then one of the other leading sites in North American racing as he is as dedicated as dedicated can be, 7x24.

So, as for my due diligence......I've surfed the internet, I've talked with friends, I've listened to radio shows, all in an effort to soak up knowledge of where I want to spend, quite literally, the second half of my life. I'm in Southern California, so my opportunities are pretty endless. I was actually surprised to hear that on weekend mornings there are radio shows dedicated not only to horse racing, but golf and fishing too! I'm still waiting for a bitch session on the golf or fishing shows :D

Sorry, but I've got to say it, in all my research I've never seen or heard a bigger bunch of complainers than "fans" much like many here. I don't care if the subject is golf, fishing, slots or ponies, they all have their downsides, but I ask you.....do the participants in anything else bitch, moan and complain constantly like a horseplayer does?

Can you imagine talking to a buddy golfer and all he wants to do is complain that Pebble Beach charges more than Torrey Pines and it's an outrage on top of the city and state taxes he has to come up with for green fees. Nonsense, the golfer has other stories to tell about the dog-leg left par 4 that he birdied, interesting stuff.

Or how about the fishmerman, does he dwell on the day they weren't biting even though he just bought his license and fresh bait, hell no, he tells you relocated about 3 miles away and caught one THIS BIG!

Even the slot player, who I happen to think has the least return on his investment, does he complain about frivilous issues like the horseplayer, nope!

Joe, my backyard neighbor, is a lot like you. Year after year after year he wants to tell me about the high profile trainer caught with drugs that racetrack management slaps on the wrist, or he wants to go on and on about the taxes taken out of his winning wagers and how high they are, or how there's a lack of competition amongst 6 horses in a race and it's too boring, or that he doesn't like the surface the horses have to run on, and he's certain they don't like it either, or he wants to rag on racetrack management for not catering to their regular customers better, I guess he wants free stuff. Joe seems to me that he's actually happy being miserable or at least it's a conscious decision he's made year-in and year-out, and I just don't want to go there, life is too short, this ain't no dress rehearsal and I want to enjoy it the best that I can.

Looking back at my corporate management job to draw a comparison to how you're handling horse racing.....there were many committees set up under my jurisdiction for a wide variety of issues, from automation to casual Fridays, and when they'd report back after a series of meetings that they were unsuccessful in getting the changes implemented that they wanted.......I usually arrived at the same conclusion.....I HAD THE WRONG PEOPLE IN THE ROOM TO GET IT DONE.

And that's where I see many of you, I'm not questioning your reasoning about synthetic tracks or takeout rates or uniform drug codes, but I will tell you that your ROI sucks. You are, quite simply not successful in your in chasing your passions of being a decison maker in the sport. If you really want something bad enough, get in a position where you can make a difference, but stop complaining ad nauseum to the wrong people.

It's my opinion that the happiest posters here are the ones that don't wager on a regular basis. They like the touch-feely stuff, the look in the eye that sort of stuff, that's swell, but not where I'm looking to get involved, I want to be a player like you.

Face it, whether you like it or not, if you are a regular at PaceAdvantage, you are the heartbeat of the industry. You are the meat and potatos, you spend countless hours building databases of information and then you are befuddled with a change in track surface. Or, like any good shopper who knows the differences between WalMart and Nordstroms, you spend hours looking for value and return on investment, but why as a horseplayer can't you find happiness anywhere, errrr so it seems.

It's also my opinion, that this high level of discontent that I've noticed is really nothing new, it's not just since Magna, nor is it just since synthetics or the 2% at LosAl, it's not the newest issues to hit the sport that piss you off, seems like it's been pretty much like this for 30 years or so, kinda like a long-standing fued between labor and managment, sometimes the troops are just never happy, a real shame.

I'll leave you with this question to ponder......
(Assumption1, the fans/customers deserve to be heard, they have great ideas with merit and could make the game better if only management listened)

What are the biggest successes the fans have had implemented over the past 30 years in horseracing?
I don't know the details as well as you, but I'll start a list....

1. Colored saddlecloths in the Breeders Cup. (I think the outcry got the change done, but I don't think it was the best solution for TV viewers. Trackus might've been a better compromise and keeping the traditional purple saddlecloths?)

2. Reduction in minimum wagers to a dollar or a dime on just about everything except California's succesful P6 formula. (I think the outcry got this accomplished as $5 exactas were deemed excessive, hmmmmm I don't know all the pros and cons of this one if it really is a success?)

3. Internet wagering in the home. (I'm not certain the players outcry won this one, nor was it Al Gore's accomplishment. I think it just sort of happened with a lot of management taking the financial risks to get it done)

4.
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I look forward to seeing your list of accomplishments over the past 30 years, no small sample indeed. You've got a lot of time invested in trying to make the sport better, please take a moment to tell me about your successes and change my mind that you're nothing but a bunch of complainers who have nothing better to do, like golf, fishing or even video poker, don't leave it up to management to sway me :D

thanks, is there ANY chance your glass is half full?

[cj]

I'll keep this short. I suspect your post is mostly a bunch of bs, but the point remains.

Horseplayers bitch on the internet for a few reasons. First, the game is about as bad as it can get right now. There aren't a lot of positives in the industry.

Second, bettors have never had a voice until the internet came along...never, ever, ever. So of course they are frustrated and have a lot of gripes. They have been pissed on for so long it is time to let it out. Believe it or not, some of the complaining has done some good.

The fact that many of us still remain shows what a great game it is. However, if customers aren't satisfied with the product and soon, it is going to be gone. If I were you, I'd take up golf.

[Grits]

Welcome to Pace Advantage. With all due respect, the negative tone of your first paragraph is enough to cause anyone to conclude, "do I really want to read further?" How many of those retired with a successful career in major corporate life management are there choosing FREE hotmail as their primary email provider? What did you expect from the site's owner?

You have knowledge of Magna, Trakus, track surfaces, synthetics, dirt, turf, drugs, takeout, taxes, and on and on.

You may be new to retirement but you're about has new to horseracing as Claiborne Farms in Paris, Kentucky.

If you like the sport keep reading, we have plenty of concerns, and still, plenty of enthusiasm. Too, if you don't--buy a Bass boat and go fishing.

[Greyfox]

Okay, so this is my first post, it's been a long time coming so forgive the following diatribe,

Just Retired ...Interesting first post. You complain about complainers and start out right off the bat as a complainer. Welcome. You'll fit right in with other gripers.

[andymays]

And that's where I see many of you, I'm not questioning your reasoning about synthetic tracks or takeout rates or uniform drug codes, but I will tell you that your ROI sucks. You are, quite simply not successful in your in chasing your passions of being a decison maker in the sport. If you really want something bad enough, get in a position where you can make a difference, but stop complaining ad nauseum to the wrong people.

It's my opinion that the happiest posters here are the ones that don't wager on a regular basis. They like the touch-feely stuff, the look in the eye that sort of stuff, that's swell, but not where I'm looking to get involved, I want to be a player like you.




Just Retired, you may not know it but quite a few industry decision makers read the posts at Pace Advantage. ;)

YouTube - Bobby McFerrin - Don't Worry Be Happy :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9K4BKkLaCI

[Robert Goren]

Just Retired, You sound like my old boss. Long winded and of no use to anybody. Even sadder, you sound like the people running horse racing today.

[FenceBored]

I don't know about my glass, but after that 1500 word stemwinder my muckbucket is completely full.

ps. note to self: ask moderators to strengthen FBI background check.

[Just Retired]

Six replies so far to my long winded novel based on a true story and not one success story you want to share?

C'mon, gimme your best shot, tell me you're responsible for showing the exotic probables on the tv, or maybe you're the guy who got 1x geldings mentioned in the program?

Surely there must be some accomplishments on your resume, please share, thanks in advance.

[rwwupl]

Six replies so far to my long winded novel based on a true story and not one success story you want to share?

C'mon, gimme your best shot, tell me you're responsible for showing the exotic probables on the tv, or maybe you're the guy who got 1x geldings mentioned in the program?

Surely there must be some accomplishments on your resume, please share, thanks in advance.


Your attitude needs work :p

[Tread]

I could care less if the voice of the fan has not had ANY significant impact on racing to date or not. That won't change the fact that there are many things that could/should be improved upon if you are intersted in saving racing. Or you could stick your head in the sand and be in complete denial over the decline horse racing is in.

Your discussion point is completely irrelevant. So I suspect you are really just here to troll.

[castaway01]

I don't know if it's worth replying, but I will say that if you've never heard a fisherman complain, you must not have ever fished. They complain about the lack of fish, the bad weather, the fishing regulations, how netters are netting up all the fish illegally, and how fishing isn't as good as it used to be. Most fishing trips I hear some variations on these themes from the "old timers", yet in between all that (most of which is true in some form or another) we still have fun. People usually complain because they really care about something and want it to be improved, maintained, or changed. Sure, there are the chronic complainers who will never be happy because they're just miserable humans in general, but most of us complain because we see problems and want to fix them.

With that said, I'd take up golf. You'll lose at video poker, and the fishing and horse racing, as we just covered, ain't what they used to be. :)

[Just Retired]

Your attitude needs work :p


Ohhh reallly!

Let's not turn this around and make it about me okay.

I asked a simple question.....How's your ROI doing for your complaining about the state of the industry, simple enough.

I really do want to hear some success stories, thanks in advance.

4.
5.
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[garyoz]

Many of us were involved in this "hobby" during the 60's, 70's and 80's when it merited the time commitment it requires and well before this death spiral brought on by about everyone but the players.

[andymays]

Six replies so far to my long winded novel based on a true story and not one success story you want to share?

C'mon, gimme your best shot, tell me you're responsible for showing the exotic probables on the tv, or maybe you're the guy who got 1x geldings mentioned in the program?

Surely there must be some accomplishments on your resume, please share, thanks in advance.

You can decide whether or not I got anything done. ;)

By the way most of the "beefs" in that thread are water under the bridge. :)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56868&highlight=refunded

[DeanT]

Sorry, but I've got to say it, in all my research I've never seen or heard a bigger bunch of complainers than "fans" much like many here. I don't care if the subject is golf, fishing, slots or ponies, they all have their downsides, but I ask you.....do the participants in anything else bitch, moan and complain constantly like a horseplayer does?


If golfers were prohibited from playing golf on other courses, based on where they live and how far away they live from their home golf course, you would probably hear more complaining.

If fisherman got ready to go to the lake, buying bait, a few lures, packed a nice lunch and when he got there the lake was closed because of a dispute between boat manufacturers that should have no effect on him as a fisherman, you would probably hear more complaining.

If your slots playing friend walked into a casino tomorrow, spent $5000 on slots, and was told he did not get a free drink, a break on his room, a discount on his meal, was charged $3 for a slots guide on each machine he plays just so he can give the casino money, and was treated more like a necessary nuisance rather than a paying customer, you might hear more complaining.

Since the above happens in racing you would think there would be not only some complaining (from people who love the sport) but also a large drop in business. That's exactly what's happened on both counts, and it shouldn't surprise anyone.

[andymays]

I don't know about anyone else but I enjoy being a "disgruntled", "uncivilized", "degenerate" Horseplayer. :lol:

[illinoisbred]

Golfers complain too. Slow play, bad lies,unraked sandtraps,unfair out-of-bounds,where is the beer cart/girl on weekends,expensive tee times on weekends before noon,unfair hole placements,players that don't replace divots in fairways or fix ball marks on greens, other players who cheat by improving their lie or liberally marking their ball on the green,other players who sandbag-have fraudulent handicaps, I could keep going but.....

[Just Retired]

I don't know about anyone else but I enjoy being a "disgruntled", "uncivilized", "degenerate" Horseplayer. :lol:


I really do believe you.

As to the others who think I'm a troll and won't take my basic question seriously, I said it right up front that I knew I'd be taking some shots, but I've just got to wonder why you have to be suspicious and not willing to accept my question at face value, is it really that difficult to defend your actions over time?

Hell, I'm thinkin some of you would've spent less time and less money if you only would've gone to the University of Arizona Racetrack program for four years and gotten involved there instead of your choice as an internet blogger.

[Robert Goren]

I have introduce several people to the game. The way things are today are, I almost wished I hadn't. In this game, it is all about getting people to the windows. I just wish when I bring someone new out to the track that the track made them feel welcome. How many new people have you brought to track? And if you have, are they going to go back?

[andymays]

I really do believe you.

As to the others who think I'm a troll and won't take my basic question seriously, I said it right up front that I knew I'd be taking some shots, but I've just got to wonder why you have to be suspicious and not willing to accept my question at face value, is it really that difficult to defend your actions over time?

Hell, I'm thinkin some of you would've spent less time and less money if you only would've gone to the University of Arizona Racetrack program for four years and gotten involved there instead of your choice as an internet blogger.

If I could turn back time ....... :cool:

Are you affiliated with Del Mar? ;) Not that there's anything wrong with that! :D

[Horseplayersbet.com]

If I could turn back time ....... :cool:

Are you affiliated with Del Mar? ;) Not that there's anything wrong with that! :D
He sounds like someone who might be involved in takeout hikes wishing we all go away :lol:

[Just Retired]

I have introduce several people to the game. The way things are today are, I almost wished I hadn't. In this game, it is all about getting people to the windows. I just wish when I bring someone new out to the track that the track made them feel welcome. How many new people have you brought to track? And if you have, are they going to go back?

Well, I took friends to the track when things were quite different. There were only 9 races to wager on that day, only one daily double, there were three exacta races each with $5 minimums, there was 30 minutes between each race because there was to simulcasting to distract our attention from handicapping and kibitzing with friends, there was a pretty significant crowd that day even though it was mid-week, we needed to get in line early and hope you picked the fastest teller, the $6 combo windows were usally pretty quick.
These folks had lived through the depression and knew understood the value of a $2 wager, and they were there betting with both fists.

Maybe we should go back to that huh?

[Just Retired]

If I could turn back time ....... :cool:

Are you affiliated with Del Mar? ;) Not that there's anything wrong with that! :D

I noticed you deleted your specific question about Craig Fravel, why?

[LottaKash]

Well, I took friends to the track when things were quite different. There were only 9 races to wager on that day, only one daily double, there were three exacta races each with $5 minimums, there was 30 minutes between each race because there was to simulcasting to distract our attention from handicapping and kibitzing with friends, there was a pretty significant crowd that day even though it was mid-week, we needed to get in line early and hope you picked the fastest teller, the $6 combo windows were usally pretty quick.
These folks had lived through the depression and knew understood the value of a $2 wager, and they were there betting with both fists.

Maybe we should go back to that huh?

Show us the way, please......

best,

[Just Retired]

He sounds like someone who might be involved in takeout hikes wishing we all go away :lol:


Now why in the world would you say something silly like that, please explain so I don't jump to my own conclusions about what drives you to comment like that, I can see nothing where I led you to that?

[andymays]

He sounds like someone who might be involved in takeout hikes wishing we all go away :lol:


Nothing surprises me anymore. Damn it! :)

At damnit.com I found this:

OUR MISSION:

If you are one of those people with one of those needs then we are one of those organizations with one of those needs to put your story up for the world to see. We want the world to hear all about your "DAMNIT!" situations and want to be therapeutic for you as well. Release all of those pent up frustrations, worries, and good old negative energy. Forget meditation, that's people who want to forget about their feelings...we want you to really deal with them. The mission is to help you release your DAMNIT needs. You need DAMNIT.COM and DAMNIT.COM needs you!


Give us your stories!
See your "Pessimistic Words" in print!
Don't hold back let it rip!

Here @ damnit.com, you can:

1. Damn your Boss

2. Damn your Significant other

3. Damn your Boss for being with your Significant Other

4. Damn Saddam

5. Damn Anything You Feel Like!

6. Damn synthetic surfaces! (I added that)

We need you and your HARD LUCK stories to help others like you get through the day!

Remember: MISERY LOVES COMPANY and we love you so send in your STUFF and we'll see what you've got.

[tzipi]

Well, I took friends to the track when things were quite different. There were only 9 races to wager on that day, only one daily double, there were three exacta races each with $5 minimums, there was 30 minutes between each race because there was to simulcasting to distract our attention from handicapping and kibitzing with friends, there was a pretty significant crowd that day even though it was mid-week, we needed to get in line early and hope you picked the fastest teller, the $6 combo windows were usally pretty quick.
These folks had lived through the depression and knew understood the value of a $2 wager, and they were there betting with both fists.

Maybe we should go back to that huh?


So you're complaining about how racing is today and how it's not the same as it used to be? Didn't you just jump on posters for complaining about the game?

[boomman]

Six replies so far to my long winded novel based on a true story and not one success story you want to share?

C'mon, gimme your best shot, tell me you're responsible for showing the exotic probables on the tv, or maybe you're the guy who got 1x geldings mentioned in the program?

Surely there must be some accomplishments on your resume, please share, thanks in advance.

Ok Just: I'll "bite" as I know several members on here are waiting for me to do so: I am a proud member of PA, I am a horse player, and I am one of the decision makers mentioned by Andy that reads and participates in this board that is in the business as a director of racing. I am also someone that ALWAYS (100% of the time) sees the glass "half full". To answer your broad question about what horseplayers are doing now that they do have a forum for discussion, why don't you try this on for size: Last year they formed the Horseplayers Association of North America (H.A.N.A) and now number over 1500 members strong. I hosted them at Yavapai Downs last August and President Jeff Platt presented to us along with the horsemen of The Arizona H.B.P.A a list of items that horse players in his group felt would immediately improve out sport. We then agreed to meet again with the Arizona HBPA to work on implementation of some of these items at the end of September. We met with the Az HBPA again at the Symposium on Racing in Tucson to look at exactly how we could implement some of these changes suggested by the horseplayers and then made our first presentation on their behalf to The Arizona Dept of Racing on January 25, with H.A.N.A. President Jeff Platt making a presentation on behalf of his horseplayers group. I then attended a H.A.N.A. day at the races at Tampa Bay Day Downs hosted by General Manager Peter Berube and discussed this further in person and via teleconference on Feb 6. An additional meeting has now been scheduled with the Director of The Arizona Dept of Racing to further provide information that is needed via videoconference. Many of the things were are working on are necessarily "behind the scenes" and confidential in nature and will be disclosed when they can, but when you come on here (and welcome to the board by the way) and say that nothing is being done, you know not of what you speak. Plain and simple;)

Boomer

[Just Retired]

So you're complaining about how racing is today and how it's not the same as it used to be? Didn't you just jump on posters for complaining about the game?

I'm not complaining, Robert asked if I'd taken friends to the track, so I shared a story that's all, geeesh!

[Tom]

Surely there must be some accomplishments on your resume, please share, thanks in advance.

I put you on Iggy. Your welcome.

[LottaKash]

Now why in the world would you say something silly like that, please explain so I don't jump to my own conclusions about what drives you to comment like that, I can see nothing where I led you to that?

Blinkers Off, then re-try.....

best,

[tzipi]

I'm not complaining, Robert asked if I'd taken friends to the track, so I shared a story that's all, geeesh!

Yeah and you complained in your shared story. Remembering how it was a certain way and how you'd like "to go back to that". So you want to go back because the it's not the same, it's not as good, right? Guess your in the group of complainers :)

[Bobzilla]

If golfers were prohibited from playing golf on other courses, based on where they live and how far away they live from their home golf course, you would probably hear more complaining.

If fisherman got ready to go to the lake, buying bait, a few lures, packed a nice lunch and when he got there the lake was closed because of a dispute between boat manufacturers that should have no effect on him as a fisherman, you would probably hear more complaining.

If your slots playing friend walked into a casino tomorrow, spent $5000 on slots, and was told he did not get a free drink, a break on his room, a discount on his meal, was charged $3 for a slots guide on each machine he plays just so he can give the casino money, and was treated more like a necessary nuisance rather than a paying customer, you might hear more complaining.

Since the above happens in racing you would think there would be not only some complaining (from people who love the sport) but also a large drop in business. That's exactly what's happened on both counts, and it shouldn't surprise anyone.


This is an excellent post and, imo, an appropriate response to the OP's opening statement. I hope the recently retired gentleman reads it again.

Most horseplayers aren't complaining about the current state of affairs in racing out of some intrinsic need to bitch and moan, but rather it's an attempt to have our voices heard so we can work closer with racing to affect the changes needed that can hopefully provide CPR to a dying pastime many of us love.

[Just Retired]

Boomer,

thanks for your reply and telling me about the HANA meetings you've had.

Again, with all due repsect as the title suggests, it is the RESULTS of your efforts that I am interested in hearing about. I have no doubt that the industry is teetering on the brink of disaster and that there are some well intentioned folks much like yourself who are attempting to do something.

But what significant results do you have to show for your painstaking time consuming efforts?

I'm all ears.......but my left ear is numb and thinkin you're going about it all wrong, set me straight, share your results, thanks.

[Just Retired]

Yeah and you complained in your shared story. Remembering how it was a certain way and how you'd like "to go back to that". So you want to go back because the it's not the same, it's not as good, right? Guess your in the group of complainers :)


just symantics.....I don't recall saying I'd like to go back to that way of life, but if that's what you read, so be it, I thought I had the word maybe in there.

I'll try making the point differently, taking somebody to the track these days that wants to gamble may not be the way to go? Most of the insiders seem quite comfortable in the solitude of their living room with post times every three minutes. I wonder though if telling the guy to stay home and open a TVG account is the right thing to do or take him to live racing?

[Robert Goren]

Well, I took friends to the track when things were quite different. There were only 9 races to wager on that day, only one daily double, there were three exacta races each with $5 minimums, there was 30 minutes between each race because there was to simulcasting to distract our attention from handicapping and kibitzing with friends, there was a pretty significant crowd that day even though it was mid-week, we needed to get in line early and hope you picked the fastest teller, the $6 combo windows were usally pretty quick.
These folks had lived through the depression and knew understood the value of a $2 wager, and they were there betting with both fists.

Maybe we should go back to that huh? It would be an improvement over what is happening today although I could live without the $5 Exactas. One thing I sure wish they would go back to is the restroom attendants. I think clean them once every five years now.

[tzipi]

JUST RETIRED:
You compare people complaining here about racing to:
"Well does a fisherman complain when the fish don't bite for a day?"
"Does a golfer complain about Pebble Beach?"

WTH??? Where are people here complaining and giving up because they went 0-9 in one day at the races? That's the same as the fishing story. They're complaining about years of crap that's been going on. You are WAY OFF here. The golf one? Cmon.

[tzipi]

just symantics.....I don't recall saying I'd like to go back to that way of life, but if that's what you read, so be it.


Your last line in the post #22, "MAYBE WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THAT, huh?" But you don't recall? :bang:

[boomman]

Boomer,

thanks for your reply and telling me about the HANA meetings you've had.

Again, with all due repsect as the title suggests, it is the RESULTS of your efforts that I am interested in hearing about. I have no doubt that the industry is teetering on the brink of disaster and that there are some well intentioned folks much like yourself who are attempting to do something.

But what significant results do you have to show for your painstaking time consuming efforts?

I'm all ears.......but my left ear is numb and thinkin you're going about it all wrong, set me straight, share your results, thanks.

Just: If you think that I'm going about it "all wrong" by going to industry leaders and lawmakers with changes that need to be made, then you're some kind of a nut job..........:bang:

Boomer

[Greyfox]

Just: If you think that I'm going about it "all wrong" by going to industry leaders and lawmakers with changes that need to be made, then you're some kind of a nut job..........:bang:

Boomer

You usually are quicker than that. What took you so long to reach that conclusion? He's a poster who thinks with a numb left ear. :lol:

[Just Retired]

Bob and Dean,

About your post about golf, having a good friend who happens to be black, I've heard a lot about not being allowed to play on different courses, now that's a PROBLEM!

As for the fisherman who finds the lake closed, my friend ran into that with a pollution problem that could've been prevented, but his attitude was good and said we'll get 'em next week as I recall.

As for the casino player who gets the free drink, doesn't have to pay $3 for a menu, or churns $2,000 through the racebook to get a free night's stay......I'm not sure why you bring up those examples?

Racing did have a heyday, didn't it?
Racing was popular with fans once upon a time, wasn't it?

Why not try to determine what that was, and make that a goal?

Did racegoers ALWAYS pay an admission fee, even when times were good?
Did racegoers EVER get a free drink coupon even if they were there every day, I think not.
As for sleeping overnight FREE.....well, I hope it wasn't in one of those stanky bathrooms downstairs somebody here mentioned.

Don't blame the competition for racing's failure, they've done quite well failing all on their own imho. Just because casino's have free parking, that doesn't mean Santa Anita has to.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

List of accomplishments or changes that probably had lots to do with Pace Advantage and/or HANA:

Equibase Up To The Minute Changes http://www.equibase.com/static/latechanges/html/latechanges.html

A handle drop by Los Alamitos after the takeout hike was announced.

A takeout drop by Tampa Bay Downs

Payoff of winning tickets by a few ADWs when Penn canceled races because of past posting incidences.

Debatable, the talk on message boards regarding Michael Gill that led to him getting barred at Penn. Not sure if the result was good or not though as facts are still hard to find.

See Boomer's post.

A fear that other tracks have now when it comes to increasing takeout as awareness is now out there big time.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot more.

[Just Retired]

Boomer....."nut job"
nice!

What is racing's biggest problem in your opinion?

What one thing if you could get if fixed through your meetings would either a) save racing b) make it as popular with fans as it once was or c) paint a bright future that new fans would be willing to get involved today?

Bonus question.....what is the likelihood of you getting that one thing accomplished in the next 18 months?

thanks.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Well, I took friends to the track when things were quite different. There were only 9 races to wager on that day, only one daily double, there were three exacta races each with $5 minimums, there was 30 minutes between each race because there was to simulcasting to distract our attention from handicapping and kibitzing with friends, there was a pretty significant crowd that day even though it was mid-week, we needed to get in line early and hope you picked the fastest teller, the $6 combo windows were usally pretty quick.
These folks had lived through the depression and knew understood the value of a $2 wager, and they were there betting with both fists.

Maybe we should go back to that huh?
Players lasted longer back then because of the lack of choices to bet on. There was lots of dummy money in the pools as well (lots of it lost to slots and lotteries today). An astute player could make a living, and most players knew of some of these players, or at least there were legends of winners at the track.

Players also were likely to leave with enough money to entice them to come back as quickly as possible as well.

That is why there were big crowds and racing was more popular than today.

[Quagmire]

I have a couple of neighbors too. One is a fisherman he used to take me every once in awhile and we'd catch dinner. I ran into him the other day and he told me he hasn't gone fishing for awhile since the feds imposed a bag limit on the amount and size fish he can keep. He said that there have been a lot of protests about it and the charter boats on the coast have lost most of there business due to it.
Another neighbor is an avid golfer that used to go to one particular course fairly regularly I ran into him the other day and asked how the course was looking these days. He told me that the course was closed and overrun with weeds. Apparently there idea of raising green fees wasn't so well received since there are plenty of other courses for folks to spend there money down here in Orlando.

[tzipi]

Bob and Dean,

About your post about golf, having a good friend who happens to be black, I've heard a lot about not being allowed to play on different courses, now that's a PROBLEM!

As for the fisherman who finds the lake closed, my friend ran into that with a pollution problem that could've been prevented, but his attitude was good and said we'll get 'em next week as I recall.


Why are you comparing people complaning about YEARS of decline in horse racing to a fisherman who finds his lake is closed for ONE day??? :rolleyes:

You complained earlier that racing is not the same? So why are you busting on people here.

[mountainman]

Betting horses can't be compared to other endeavors.Wagering pools aren't some scenic par-4 or idyllic pond. They're a battle field on which soldiers often shoot themselves- should the enemy happen to miss. Few can face that with stoicism, and those who even risk it are a different breed of cat. When intolerable conditions make the battlefield even more hazardous, an outcry should be expected.
Incidentally, I've never met a slots player who didn't whine and moan constantly, and you haven't seen grim faces until you've walked through a casino. So can we scratch mr slots player from your mythical neighborhood?

[Just Retired]

List of accomplishments or changes that probably had lots to do with Pace Advantage and/or HANA:

Equibase Up To The Minute Changes http://www.equibase.com/static/latechanges/html/latechanges.html

A handle drop by Los Alamitos after the takeout hike was announced.

A takeout drop by Tampa Bay Downs

Payoff of winning tickets by a few ADWs when Penn canceled races because of past posting incidences.

Debatable, the talk on message boards regarding Michael Gill that led to him getting barred at Penn. Not sure if the result was good or not though as facts are still hard to find.

See Boomer's post.

A fear that other tracks have now when it comes to increasing takeout as awareness is now out there big time.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot more.

Your item #1.....the drop in handle at LosAl after the takeout was increased. Are you certain that passionate HANA players are responisble for that decrease? How did you factor in Santa Anita not running at that time? How did you factor in the horse shortage forcing LosAl into a 3 day week for couple of months? How did you factor in the grind of trying to run a 52 week meet? Hmmmmm, not sure your claim of success is valid here.

Your item #2.....a takeout drop by Tampa Bay, no doubt in response to HANA's demands? Okay, so what's it done? New players? More handle? Better stakes program? New owners? Thanks, when I hear more about the results, I'll congratulate you.

Your item #3......the Penn cancelled tickets getting paid off.....Hmmmm, gotta admit I have no idea how this favorably impacts the National Racing scene, maybe you have some follow-up notes to share?

[Just Retired]

Players lasted longer back then because of the lack of choices to bet on. There was lots of dummy money in the pools as well (lots of it lost to slots and lotteries today). An astute player could make a living, and most players knew of some of these players, or at least there were legends of winners at the track.

Players also were likely to leave with enough money to entice them to come back as quickly as possible as well.

That is why there were big crowds and racing was more popular than today.

If I understand you correctly "a lack of choices to bet on" being the reason the players lasted longer......then maybe we should petition racetrack managment to minimize the gimmick wagering menu. Do we really need rolling doubles, rolling P3s, quinellas etc?

[Dave Schwartz]

If I may respectfully make a point here.

Rather than us beating up on Mr. Retired because he doesn't see things our way, why not take advantage of this situation.

That is, as a newcomer to the game why not use this opportunity to ask questions about how a new player feels about racings perceived issues?


Truthfully, if the typical new fan doesn't care about takeout, poly and ADWs, what do they care about?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Just Retired]

You complained earlier that racing is not the same? So why are you busting on people here.

I'm trying to find out what would make the majority of people happy?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

If I understand you correctly "a lack of choices to bet on" being the reason the players lasted longer......then maybe we should petition racetrack managment to minimize the gimmick wagering menu. Do we really need rolling doubles, rolling P3s, quinellas etc?
No, we should get tracks to reduce takeouts across the board so players will last longer. The days of going to the track are over with. Racing has to understand that their future is computer betting and lower takeouts.
I'm just illustrating to you why horse racing was what it was in the 70's. It can't go back to that because of competition and the reality of computers.

[GameTheory]

Here's a question: why are we jumping through hoops for this obvious liar and troll? Why don't you tell us who you really are, sir?

[mountainman]

If I may respectfully make a point here.

Rather than us beating up on Mr. Retired because he doesn't see things our way, why not take advantage of this situation.

That is, as a newcomer to the game why not use this opportunity to ask questions about how a new player feels about racings perceived issues?


Truthfully, if the typical new fan doesn't care about takeout, poly and ADWs, what do they care about?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

He doesn't strike me as a newbie at all Dave. To racing, or to this forum.

[tzipi]

I'm trying to find out what would make the majority of people happy?

Yeah but you are saying well a fisherman doesn't complain when a lake is closed for a day or fish don't bite for day. Where are people complaining or quitting over one bad day??

Just Retired go find a fisherman whos lake closes down frequently for years or a fisherman who goes to a lake that never has fish that bite and see if they're so happy. NO ONE here is complaining about one bad day at the track.

You also said to me that you don't recall wanting to go back to the old days but in post #22 you say,"well maybe we should go back to those days,huh" I don't get you. Are you really paying attention to the stuff you read or are writing??

[Grits]

I'm with GT. You're a liar. From your first post to this last, your novella is changing with each--unable to recall what you've previously typed.

How long do you intend to hold court? Since you've now been given several replies to your screed.

You're retired? That's probably a lie too.

Every hour you spend finding fault with horseplayers and racing fans is one you've wasted in retirement, putting yourself closer to an unfulfilled demise. Life is short, retirement can be EXTREMELY SHORT.

In reality, contrary to what you may feel is an obligation to you--no on involved in this sport, certainly not anyone here, owes you jack.

No one is required to share, to justify, or to sell anything to someone trolling for their entertainment.

[wisconsin]

Just Retired clearly is one of the happy go lucky race track visitors. Of course life was simpler "then". The landscape has changed, but the mentality has not. Don't tell me for one minute that people never complained "back in the day". We (horseplayers) have issues with racing that are often ignored. Too numerous to mention here. In the "heyday" peolpe had issues, too.

There were fewer races, fewer ways to bet, and people still had the "they" mentality. You hear that today, sometimes. You know, "they" stiffed, bet, set-up, shipped, drugged, fixed, whatever the complaint of the race was.

It's clear to me that you have a positive attitude, and you are satisfied with the staus quo. After all, lets not upset the apple cart.

[Just Retired]

If I may respectfully make a point here.

Rather than us beating up on Mr. Retired because he doesn't see things our way, why not take advantage of this situation.

That is, as a newcomer to the game why not use this opportunity to ask questions about how a new player feels about racings perceived issues?


Truthfully, if the typical new fan doesn't care about takeout, poly and ADWs, what do they care about?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Thank you for asking Dave,

I'm not so naive as to think that those pictures of DelMar and Santa Anita with overflowing crowds will ever be realized again, but I do think it can be a goal.

I think a new fan would be attracted to HIGH QUALITY racing, and it doesn't have to be every day of the week. Stakes racing is what makes the game great, not the $5k claimer. Remember, I'm talking about a National Fan Base.

I think a new fan would be attracted to TV coverage that takes the time to concentrate on the PREMIER races of the day and not the minor league garbage that clutters up the screen.

I think a new fan would be attracted to a LIVE racetrack where the bathrooms were as clean as the ones in the casino, is that really so hard to do?

I think a new fan should understand WPS wagering long, long before they hear about exotic wagering and how construct multiple P6 tickets.

As for understanding poly....I think the new player will get it, it took him a while to understand the accent of his friends from France and India, but he's a quick learner, give him a chance to understand that there's more to life than ATT, IBM and GMC.

Major league baseball gets it, I have a helluva time catching the Durham Bulls on TV.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Here's a question: why are we jumping through hoops for this obvious liar and troll? Why don't you tell us who you really are, sir?
If he keeps moving the goalposts the way he has been doing, he'll have to relocate the football franchise to another city.

[cj]

Here's a question: why are we jumping through hoops for this obvious liar and troll? Why don't you tell us who you really are, sir?

It was pretty obvious and I should have closed and deleted this thread as soon as I saw it. I decided to let him hang himself. It is 1 to 20 he is a retread here, but I'll let PA sort it out. I'm closing it for now.