Quality Road will beat Rachel Alexandra or Zenyatta

[Moyers Pond]

Hate to say it because I love Zenyatta, but he looks like he is going to be unbeatable as a 4yr old.

Another track record for that monster. Maybe Z will be able to handle him at 10f. Honestly don't know.

[jognlope]

He's so smooth....

[Moyers Pond]

He's so smooth....

Yeah, I don't love Pletcher, but this horse looks like something we haven't seen in a long time. He will have to stay healthy, but he might just shatter track record after track record.

Talent wise he looks like he is as good as we have seen since Point Given.

[Relwob Owner]

Hate to say it because I love Zenyatta, but he looks like he is going to be unbeatable as a 4yr old.

Another track record for that monster. Maybe Z will be able to handle him at 10f. Honestly don't know.


I agree he freaked but didnt you start a thread 12 minutes before this one saying that field was "awful"??????

[PaceAdvantage]

This is the same horse certain individuals on this message board were saying couldn't get 10f and should probably be retired (or at least laid up for a while) after his Breeders' Cup gate incident, correct?

Aren't you guys glad Pletcher didn't read this board shorty after the BC and heed that advice?

[Moyers Pond]

I agree he freaked but didnt you start a thread 12 minutes before this one saying that field was "awful"??????

It was awful for a grade 1, but he toyed with them. Horses don't win grade 1 races like that no matter how bad the field is unless they are superstars.

[Robert Goren]

He has looked good before, but something always seems to wrong.

[PaceAdvantage]

Horses don't win grade 1 races like that no matter how bad the field is unless they are superstars.Uh oh....

[Relwob Owner]

It was awful for a grade 1, but he toyed with them. Horses don't win grade 1 races like that no matter how bad the field is unless they are superstars.


I agree he ran a terrific race but it was barely grade 3 in terms of horse quality and Past the Point helped him by going to the lead and letting QR settle from just off of it IMO. I think the horse has a lot of talent but I wouldnt be sure a horse with that sort of temperment is a lock to beat RA or Zenyatta....as he showed before the BC, he can be his own worst enemy and is always a risk to not even start a race.

[Show Me the Wire]

This is the same horse certain individuals on this message board were saying couldn't get 10f and should probably be retired (or at least laid up for a while) after his Breeders' Cup gate incident, correct?

Aren't you guys glad Pletcher didn't read this board shorty after the BC and heed that advice?


I know I am happy. I believed Pletcher was a capable hands on trainer.

[Spalding No!]

It was awful for a grade 1, but he toyed with them. Horses don't win grade 1 races like that no matter how bad the field is unless they are superstars.

You're all over the place.

Please, at least keep it confined to a single thread.

If the 2009 Mother Goose or the Kentucky Oaks took place 10 minutes from now what would you say?

I bet your head would explode...

[joanied]

WOW...what a way to win:jump: :jump: :jump: fantastic...really makes you think of what could have been last November...
everyone running in this division is going to try avoiding QR...his gorgeous looks match his incredible talent...I love it:ThmbUp:

I picked dry Martini for the place, so I am very happy for barclay Tagg...regardless of the fact he was 12 behind the big horse:)

Kent D is lucky to finihs out his day...jeeze, that was a close call in the GP Turf...and I think a good call to DQ Take the Points...I hope that colt will be OK...the way he snapped his head around, that was scary!

And, last but not least...way to go :jump: Musket Man...that was outstanding...off a 9 month rest...excellent!

[Stillriledup]

This is the same horse certain individuals on this message board were saying couldn't get 10f and should probably be retired (or at least laid up for a while) after his Breeders' Cup gate incident, correct?

Aren't you guys glad Pletcher didn't read this board shorty after the BC and heed that advice?

No, we wish he would read here and post here.

:ThmbUp:

[MickJ26]

This guy sure does love Gulfstream. What's next for him, the Oaklawn 'Cap? With the return of Musket Man and hopefully Summer Bird, there's some quality older dirt horses for a change.

[toussaud]

1. don't' know about at 10F. he can't even beat summer bird.

let him beat a real horse than we can start the real comparisons.

2. he loves gulfstream park.

3. you could not have drawn up a better senerio for that race


4. he is very good.

[Jasonm921]

"This guy sure does love Gulfstream. What's next for him, the Oaklawn 'Cap? With the return of Musket Man and hopefully Summer Bird, there's some quality older dirt horses for a change."

Its about time!

[Relwob Owner]

1. don't' know about at 10F. he can't even beat summer bird.

let him beat a real horse than we can start the real comparisons.

2. he loves gulfstream park.

3. you could not have drawn up a better senerio for that race


4. he is very good.



4 very strong points

[ExoticDancer]

I agree he ran a terrific race but it was barely grade 3 in terms of horse quality and Past the Point helped him by going to the lead and letting QR settle from just off of it IMO. I think the horse has a lot of talent but I wouldnt be sure a horse with that sort of temperment is a lock to beat RA or Zenyatta....as he showed before the BC, he can be his own worst enemy and is always a risk to not even start a race.

Zenyatta has never beaten a single G1 winning male on dirt and to think she would get close to catching Quality Road after posting a 109 like it was nothing is pure nonsense. There is only one horse who can give him a race and we all know it's Rachel. She has a track record of beating G1 winning males on dirt.

The big race this year is Rachel vs. Quality Road. :)

[johnhannibalsmith]

How much were you refunded in the BC Classic?

[Cratos]

Quality Road’s performance in the Donn serves notice that he will be a factor in the Graded Stakes division this year barring injury.

Watching the replay of the Donn was very informative because it showed Quality Road’s ability to break well from the gate (he has been a terrible gate horse) and rate just off the leader; and he came home in 12.71 seconds for the last 1/8th mile which is very good after he got the mile in 1:34.78 seconds. I would love to see him in May at Belmont in the Met Mile.

[letswastemoney]

1. don't' know about at 10F. he can't even beat summer bird.

let him beat a real horse than we can start the real comparisons.

2. he loves gulfstream park.

3. you could not have drawn up a better senerio for that race


4. he is very good.

On a fast track, the scenario might be different. Also, Summer Bird might not even return the same way. Quality Road has proven he's improved off last year

[jognlope]

Wont' ever forget the day "the rafters shook" with excitement and they led Point Given in the paddock, police in front and back, and then he won the Travers. Took me 2 hours to get out of the parking lot when it was all over.

[Relwob Owner]

Zenyatta has never beaten a single G1 winning male on dirt and to think she would get close to catching Quality Road after posting a 109 like it was nothing is pure nonsense. There is only one horse who can give him a race and we all know it's Rachel. She has a track record of beating G1 winning males on dirt.

The big race this year is Rachel vs. Quality Road. :)

I am a Rachel Fan and think she is a better horse than Zenyatta. However, saying that the idea of her getting close to Quality road is "nonsense" is a stretch. QR's number(which was very similar to Zenyatta's in the Classic) was run at his favorite track, he had a perfect trip and he ran against a Grade 3 ish field.....in addition, it is no given that Quality Road will keep it together to get to races with either of the fillies, between the physical issues and mental issues at the gate he displayed as a 3YO

[ExoticDancer]

I am a Rachel Fan and think she is a better horse than Zenyatta. However, saying that the idea of her getting close to Quality road is "nonsense" is a stretch. QR's number(which was very similar to Zenyatta's in the Classic) was run at his favorite track, he had a perfect trip and he ran against a Grade 3 ish field.....in addition, it is no given that Quality Road will keep it together to get to races with either of the fillies, between the physical issues and mental issues at the gate he displayed as a 3YO

Quality Road just beat Graded Stakes winning horses like they were claimers and did it in record time with ease. Zenyatta has yet to beat a single G1 winning male on dirt. Let Zenyatta beat a male on dirt before thinking she would get near the record performance you just saw.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The raw figure for QR's race was 128. There are a number of problems with coming up with the variant on the day. First, there was only one other two-turn dirt race on the day (race 1, a $6,250 claiming event for mares). I have that variant as 13 fast. Second, the variant between races 3 and 4 seems to be very different than race 6. Using all the dirt races, I'd peg the variant at fast by 10. But I'm betting there's some nuance to GP that I'm missing, so if someone makes figs here regularly, I'd like to see your number for the race. In my opinion, QR ran a 118 Beyer.

[Relwob Owner]

Quality Road just beat Graded Stakes winning horses like they were claimers and did it in record time with ease. Zenyatta has yet to beat a single G1 winning male on dirt. Let Zenyatta beat a male on dirt before thinking she would get near the record performance you just saw.


I have no interest in defending Zenyatta...I am not really a big fan of her and think Rachel is a much better horse.However, you seem to want to compare Zenyatta and Quality Road. It is tough to compare the two, mainly because of the synthetic issue. It is interesting to note and honestly impossible to refute how they each fared against Summer Bird. How do you account for the fact that Quality Road couldnt get past him in the Travers of the Jockey Club and Zenyatta flew by him? Maybe synthetics I guess, but it really hurts your argument, doesnt it?

[ExoticDancer]

I have no interest in defending Zenyatta...I am not really a big fan of her and think Rachel is a much better horse.However, you seem to want to compare Zenyatta and Quality Road. It is tough to compare the two, mainly because of the synthetic issue. It is interesting to note and honestly impossible to refute how they each fared against Summer Bird. How do you account for the fact that Quality Road couldnt get past him in the Travers of the Jockey Club and Zenyatta flew by him? Maybe synthetics I guess, but it really hurts your argument, doesnt it?

Quality Road could not get by Summer Bird in the mud and Zenyatta would have been scratched and in her stall if she had to run in mud. Zenyatta is the best poly horse in the country but few care. What can she do on dirt and mud against males ? No one knows. But let me guarantee this. Zenyatta will avoid Quality Road like the plague. Let me remind you that on a dry track in Graded Stakes races Quality Roads record is undefeated.

[joanied]

"This guy sure does love Gulfstream. What's next for him, the Oaklawn 'Cap? With the return of Musket Man and hopefully Summer Bird, there's some quality older dirt horses for a change."

Its about time!

That's what I sad in another thread...after a poster said he thought this year's older horses were awful... man, if they all come back and stay healthy...whoooopppieee:jump:

[Relwob Owner]

Quality Road could not get by Summer Bird in the mud and Zenyatta would have been scratched and in her stall if she had to run in mud. Zenyatta is the best poly horse in the country but few care. What can she do on dirt and mud against males ? No one knows. But let me guarantee this. Zenyatta will avoid Quality Road like the plague. Let me remind you that on a dry track in Graded Stakes races Quality Roads record is undefeated.


Well, you have just added another variable to Quality Road's rate of success....he has to stay healthy(has had an issue with this),have no gate issues(still has an issue with this), and have a dry track....having that many variables doesnt really seem like the marks of a horse I would want to "avoid like the plague". ...Quality Road already had a chance to beat Zenyatta and couldnt even keep his head together enough in order to run in the race......

[Nikki1997]

Quality Road could not get by Summer Bird in the mud and Zenyatta would have been scratched and in her stall if she had to run in mud. Zenyatta is the best poly horse in the country but few care. What can she do on dirt and mud against males ? No one knows. But let me guarantee this. Zenyatta will avoid Quality Road like the plague. Let me remind you that on a dry track in Graded Stakes races Quality Roads record is undefeated.

You don't deal in facts, do you? You want to cling to the scratch in Ky. last year as some sort of chicken crap move by Zenyatta's connections because the track was wet? Does this give your argument more credibility in your mind? The truth is the mare was scratched because CD sealed the track. John Shirreffs said if they sealed the track instead of floating it, he would not run her. Yeah, they flew that mare to Ky. just to scratch her. How stupid and illogical is that? It was done for safety purposes because it was her first race off a long layoff. Guess only Rachel gets a pass because of weather/safety reasons. No bitching and griping about 8 days of training missed because the filly's safety was taken into concern, first and foremost, which I agree with. Just as I absolutely agreed with Zenyatta being scratched in Ky. Her safety first.

[ExoticDancer]

I am tired of all the excuses for Zenyatta. The one time it rains she scratches? She won't run if the weight is too high ? etc etc etc. There is always an excuse. Quality Road is out there and not hiding at all if you want him go get him and prove you're all that. She is the Classic winner for heaven sake act like it. Zenyatta is undefeated and a Classic winner yet she will go no where near Quality Road or Rachel until the Classic comes along. She will AGAIN take the easy route all year long. Quality Road dominated Graded Stakes winning horses with a record performance. His next race is the Met Mile. Where is Zenyatta ?

The clock continues to tick... when will Zenyatta take on G1 winning males on dirt ? tick tock tick tock

[Saratoga_Mike]

I am tired of all the excuses for Zenyatta. The one time it rains she scratches? She won't run if the weight is too high ? etc etc etc. There is always an excuse. Quality Road is out there and not hiding at all if you want him go get him and prove you're all that. She is the Classic winner for heaven sake act like it. Zenyatta is undefeated and a Classic winner yet she will go no where near Quality Road or Rachel until the Classic comes along. She will AGAIN take the easy route all year long. Quality Road dominated Graded Stakes winning horses with a record performance. His next race is the Met Mile. Where is Zenyatta ?

The clock continues to tick... when will Zenyatta take on G1 winning males on dirt ? tick tock tick tock

I can't understand how anyone can think Z is a better racehorse than RA, but the Met Mile? Come on, you want Z to run in the Met Mile? Why not the Breeders' Cup sprint?

[Relwob Owner]

I am tired of all the excuses for Zenyatta. The one time it rains she scratches? She won't run if the weight is too high ? etc etc etc. There is always an excuse. Quality Road is out there and not hiding at all if you want him go get him and prove you're all that. She is the Classic winner for heaven sake act like it. Zenyatta is undefeated and a Classic winner yet she will go no where near Quality Road or Rachel until the Classic comes along. She will AGAIN take the easy route all year long. Quality Road dominated Graded Stakes winning horses with a record performance. His next race is the Met Mile. Where is Zenyatta ?

The clock continues to tick... when will Zenyatta take on G1 winning males on dirt ? tick tock tick tock


You are tired of excuses yet you just used the slop as an excuse for why Quality Road couldnt beat Summer Bird, a horse that RA and Zenyatta both beat......


You say Quality Road is out there as if he has danced every dance and beaten quality foes.....uh, no....Amazing you can get this excited about a horse that was beaten by Hold Me Back.....

[Nikki1997]

I am tired of all the excuses for Zenyatta. The one time it rains she scratches? She won't run if the weight is too high ? etc etc etc. There is always an excuse. Quality Road is out there and not hiding at all if you want him go get him and prove you're all that. She is the Classic winner for heaven sake act like it. Zenyatta is undefeated and a Classic winner yet she will go no where near Quality Road or Rachel until the Classic comes along. She will AGAIN take the easy route all year long. Quality Road dominated Graded Stakes winning horses with a record performance. His next race is the Met Mile. Where is Zenyatta ?

The clock continues to tick... when will Zenyatta take on G1 winning males on dirt ? tick tock tick tock

LOL. I love someone like you. You are so clueless about this mare.

[ExoticDancer]

Quality Road is nothing to worry about. I am sure his 120 Beyer was just luck and Zenyatta's connections will do ALL they can to make sure she meets him on a dry track. Good luck beating a healthy Quality Road. I will be right here all year long, let me know when Zenyatta has the STONES to meet Rachel or QR.

[Relwob Owner]

Zenyatta has never beaten a single G1 winning male on dirt and to think she would get close to catching Quality Road after posting a 109 like it was nothing is pure nonsense. There is only one horse who can give him a race and we all know it's Rachel. She has a track record of beating G1 winning males on dirt.

The big race this year is Rachel vs. Quality Road. :)

Was it a 109 Beyer?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Quality Road is nothing to worry about. I am sure his 120 Beyer was just luck and Zenyatta's connections will do ALL they can to make sure she meets him on a dry track. Good luck beating a healthy Quality Road. I will be right here all year long, let me know when Zenyatta has the STONES to meet Rachel or QR.

Odd thing to say about a mare! :)

[Relwob Owner]

Quality Road is nothing to worry about. I am sure his 120 Beyer was just luck and Zenyatta's connections will do ALL they can to make sure she meets him on a dry track. Good luck beating a healthy Quality Road. I will be right here all year long, let me know when Zenyatta has the STONES to meet Rachel or QR.


Well, you avoided all of my questions and responded with a general statement that cant be proven right now. On the track and against similar opponents, the comparison is pretty clear. Just hope that the next time Zenyatta and Quality Road are entered in the same race, Quality Road finds a way to actually participate in the race.....

[Dahoss9698]

Well, you avoided all of my questions and responded with a general statement that cant be proven. On the track and against similar opponents, the comparison is pretty clear. Just hope that the next time Zenyatta and Quality Road are entered in the same race, Quality Road finds a way to actually participate in the race.....

It's all hypothetical, but had Quality Road made it into the gate Breeders Cup Day, he would have been defeated by Zenyatta. But, and again it's just my opinion, if Zenyatta and/or Rachel Alexandra were in the gate today at Gulfstream, they would have been running for second.

That was a monster performance. He got his track and his trip but he still ran huge.

[ExoticDancer]

Quality Road is nothing to worry about. I am sure his 120 Beyer was just luck and Zenyatta's connections will do ALL they can to make sure she meets him on a dry track. Good luck beating a healthy Quality Road. I will be right here all year long, let me know when Zenyatta has the STONES to meet Rachel or QR.

Odd thing to say about a mare! :)

Had to laugh at that... :D

[Relwob Owner]

It's all hypothetical, but had Quality Road made it into the gate Breeders Cup Day, he would have been defeated by Zenyatta. But, and again it's just my opinion, if Zenyatta and/or Rachel Alexandra were in the gate today at Gulfstream, they would have been running for second.

That was a monster performance. He got his track and his trip but he still ran huge.


It is tough to say....Quality Road ran huge and ran a huge Beyer...however, as Beyer himself points out, the final figure is based on many factors and who the horse is running against is a huge factor. That was a really poor group of horses in my opinion and QR got a dream trip. An awesome performance no doubt but I am just skeptical that QR can repeat it over and over, like RA and Zenyatta have. Makes for good discussion and lets just hope they all stay healthy

[Nikki1997]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]

Had to laugh at that... :D

What's comical is you originated the comment that you're highlighting. I guess some people are easily amused.

[PhantomOnTour]

I was impressed with QRs win today, but will reserve judgment on him until he faces better foes away from GP.
I doubt he Rachel and Zen will meet until late in the year; if all are healthy. Met Mile seems a likely target for him. Maybe Rachel will go there??? He cant enter their races so they've got to come to him if they want to. Now all we need is a big winner of the Ky Derby, Ky Oaks, Summer Bird to return healthy, and Musket Man continue to come along. Then we've got something.
Summer 2010 should be wild.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I've been really impressed by a few of Quality Road's races. I've been utterly disappointed in about three times as many. I expect the ratio to remain pretty similar through 2010.

[WinterTriangle]

I think QR did great today and makes me realize that if he didn't have foot issues and such his last season would have been brilliiant, oh what could have been.

Tossaud he didn't beat Summer Bird because he had quarter cracks and such, I think.

I dunno how anyone can fault him, he ran great today. And his early part of career showed his talent, for goodness sake, he was the favorite to win the KY Derby last year.

[Kimsus]

Zenyatta has never beaten a single G1 winning male on dirt


Zenyatta has never faced males on dirt so yes you are correct I guess...

[Zenyatta To Crush]

Was it a 109 Beyer?
After looking at the times of the other races on the card, my prediction would be somewhere around a 116. That would be approaching the Ghostzapper range.

[depalma113]

It was a 122

[Zenyatta To Crush]

It was a 122
Really? If that's true, thats gotta be one of the highest I've seen in awhile. Ghostzapper has run in the 120's but not much higher than 122.

[letswastemoney]

Best older male horse racing has seen since Ghostzapper.

[BirdstoneFTW]

I'll believe in Quality Road when he can actually win a G1 on Dirt going 2 turns at some place not named Gulfstream Park.

I'm not saying he can't do it, or doesn't have the talent, but it's one of those "believe it when I see it" type of deals. And no, I will not be wagering against QR because I know how these things come back to bite me :lol: :lol:

[JeremyJet]

The raw figure for QR's race was 128. There are a number of problems with coming up with the variant on the day. First, there was only one other two-turn dirt race on the day (race 1, a $6,250 claiming event for mares). I have that variant as 13 fast. Second, the variant between races 3 and 4 seems to be very different than race 6. Using all the dirt races, I'd peg the variant at fast by 10. But I'm betting there's some nuance to GP that I'm missing, so if someone makes figs here regularly, I'd like to see your number for the race. In my opinion, QR ran a 118 Beyer.

There was plenty of data to work off of 2nd through 6th place to come up with a projection. They ran the following if the winner ran a 122:

DRY MARTINI 101
DELIGHTFUL KISS 100
MAMBO MEISTER 100
HELSINKI 99
PAST THE POINT 98
Makes sense to me.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[gm10]

He's good, but so is RA over 9F. Let them run over 10F and Zenyatta says byebye.

[gm10]

I have (on my own scale of 0-100, taking both sectional and final times into account)

Quality Road 95
Dry Martini 85


Previous Donn winners:

Albertus Maximus 93
Spring At Last 93
Invasor 92
Brass Hat 88
Saint Liam 94
Medaglia D'Oro 91

So a very good performance.

[FenceBored]

You don't deal in facts, do you? You want to cling to the scratch in Ky. last year as some sort of chicken crap move by Zenyatta's connections because the track was wet? Does this give your argument more credibility in your mind? The truth is the mare was scratched because CD sealed the track. John Shirreffs said if they sealed the track instead of floating it, he would not run her. Yeah, they flew that mare to Ky. just to scratch her. How stupid and illogical is that? It was done for safety purposes because it was her first race off a long layoff. Guess only Rachel gets a pass because of weather/safety reasons. No bitching and griping about 8 days of training missed because the filly's safety was taken into concern, first and foremost, which I agree with. Just as I absolutely agreed with Zenyatta being scratched in Ky. Her safety first.

<Show_Me_the_Wire> Of couse, they did. Can you imagine the seating and other benefits Churchill Downs showered on the owners of the Champion Older Mare on Derby Weekend? Where would they have been sitting if they hadn't entered her, and how much would they have had to pay? Entering her and scratching for some 'safety' concern was a profitable move by a shrewd businessman. It's perfectly logical, and good business sense. </Show_Me_the_Wire>

[Relwob Owner]

<Show_Me_the_Wire> Of couse, they did. Can you imagine the seating and other benefits Churchill Downs showered on the owners of the Champion Older Mare on Derby Weekend? Where would they have been sitting if they hadn't entered her, and how much would they have had to pay? Entering her and scratching for some 'safety' concern was a profitable move by a shrewd businessman. It's perfectly logical, and good business sense. </Show_Me_the_Wire>


Just so I understand what you are implying....you are saying that Zenyatta's connections entered her in order to get good seats and benefits Derby Weekend and then scratched her? That is quite a claim and really doesnt make too much sense IMO. Your contention really doesnt really fit the situation, as I am pretty sure the Moss family, given their financial situation, doesnt have to worry about getting good seats at the Derby with the kind of money they have......

[ExoticDancer]

He's good, but so is RA over 9F. Let them run over 10F and Zenyatta says byebye.

How many times has Zenyatta gone over 9F on dirt ??? Nuts. :faint:

[ExoticDancer]

He was hurt ! Quality came back and ran very well in the Travers. Mud and not enough time were his enemy not the distance or anything else. If you didn't get that from the race yesterday I can't help you. When was the last time you saw a colt in a G1 race dominate like that and set a track record? Seems he set one last year at SARATOGA too but it seems a few on here forgot that. :confused:

[depalma113]

He was hurt ! Quality came back and ran very well in the Travers. Mud and not enough time were his enemy not the distance or anything else. If you didn't get that from the race yesterday I can't help you. When was the last time you saw a colt in a G1 race dominate like that and set a track record? Seems he set one last year at SARATOGA too but it seems a few on here forgot that. :confused:

Lawyer Ron in the 2007 Whitney. Than he won by a larger margin the Woodward against the same grade 3 horses. Than he was beat by Curlin in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and disappeared in the BC Classic.

Quality Road ran the race he was supposed to run against very weak company. He did it on a track that is to his and his trainer's liking.

As for his record going one turn at Saratoga, well the on track timer didn't work and the video doesn't support the time he was credited with, but that will never be corrected, so it is what it is.

[Relwob Owner]

Lawyer Ron in the 2007 Whitney. Than he won by a larger margin the Woodward against the same grade 3 horses. Than he was beat by Curlin in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and disappeared in the BC Classic.

Quality Road ran the race he was supposed to run against very weak company. He did it on a track that is to his and his trainer's liking.

As for his record going one turn at Saratoga, well the on track timer didn't work and the video doesn't support the time he was credited with, but that will never be corrected, so it is what it is.



Terrific comparison....amazing how people are overreacting to one race and the same people come up with excuses(mud) for past races....I would love to hear the QR supporters talk about the quailty of horses that have finished behind him....I think it would get pretty quiet

[Robert Goren]

We now know that Quality Road can run very fast. The question is now, can he beat anybody who is really good. Both Z and RA have done that. Time will tell about Quality Road. I have learned the hard way( losing bets) not to get too exicted about a high Beyers earned by a horse which won such a huge margin. JMO

[Kimsus]

Best older male horse racing has seen since Ghostzapper.

What? Don't you think this statement is slightly premature...let's wait till he faces a better set of horses. Considering his affinity for Gulfstream and how he he ran in the Florida Derby last yr, it's hardly a surprise he won yesterday. I'll reserve judgment until Summer Bird beats him again at 1 1/4.

On another note anyone still believe The Woodward was a tougher race than the Travers last yr, but I digress I forget Jess Jackson is not an opportunist, yep he was looking for the tougher race for Rachel last yr. :rolleyes:

[Kimsus]

We now know that Quality Road can run very fast. The question is now, can he beat anybody who is really good. Both Z and RA have done that. Time will tell about Quality Road. I have learned the hard way( losing bets) not to get too exicted about a high Beyers earned by a horse which won such a huge margin. JMO

I am leary of these big length wins that look good on paper also, when he faces better competiton and he doesn't have it all his way, the races are usually not as impressive as one may believe. Still it was a positive start to this year for QR. It's too bad he was scratched in the BC, he would have been the first horse to have won a stakes coming out of the race however James jerkins fans probably rejoiced.

[GaryG]

All we know for sure is that QR ran a huge fig under optimum conditions....that's all. I will have to see more before anointing him the 2nd coming of (name somebody real good.) It will certainly be interesting to see where he goes from here. Now you same guys can start another half dozen threads about why RA and Z are ducking QR

[ExoticDancer]

Lawyer Ron in the 2007 Whitney. Than he won by a larger margin the Woodward against the same grade 3 horses. Than he was beat by Curlin in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and disappeared in the BC Classic.

Quality Road ran the race he was supposed to run against very weak company. He did it on a track that is to his and his trainer's liking.

As for his record going one turn at Saratoga, well the on track timer didn't work and the video doesn't support the time he was credited with, but that will never be corrected, so it is what it is.

Lawyer Ron in the Whitney ? He won by 4 1/2 and pulled away at the end. It looked NOTHING like what Quality Road did setting the record.

The question was when have you seen a horse demolish the field by 12 + lengths in a G1 AND set a track record? The Whitney performance was great but not equal to what we saw yesterday. :rolleyes:

[Kimsus]

He was hurt ! Quality came back and ran very well in the Travers. Mud and not enough time were his enemy not the distance or anything else. If you didn't get that from the race yesterday I can't help you. When was the last time you saw a colt in a G1 race dominate like that and set a track record? Seems he set one last year at SARATOGA too but it seems a few on here forgot that. :confused:

Do you have blinders on? Did you watch the Travers last yr, Summer Bird was simply better than Quality Road and the track record he set last yr was in the Asterdam one race before the Travers so I don't get your reference he wasn't ready for the Travers, by the way tracks set track records not horses...

[ExoticDancer]

What? Don't you think this statement is slightly premature...let's wait till he faces a better set of horses. Considering his affinity for Gulfstream and how he he ran in the Florida Derby last yr, it's hardly a surprise he won yesterday. I'll reserve judgment until Summer Bird beats him again at 1 1/4.

On another note anyone still believe The Woodward was a tougher race than the Travers last yr, but I digress I forget Jess Jackson is not an opportunist, yep he was looking for the tougher race for Rachel last yr. :rolleyes:

It was a ghostzapper type performance. The combination of speed and power was truly amazing. Look for most to avoid him at all cost. He is a healthy fit horse now and still has not lost a Graded Stakes race on dry ground.

Look out Met Mile.

[ExoticDancer]

Do you have blinders on? Did you watch the Travers last yr, Summer Bird was simply better than Quality Road and the track record he set last yr was in the Asterdam one race before the Travers so I don't get your reference he wasn't ready for the Travers, by the way tracks set track records not horses...

One sprint does not get you ready to run the 1 1/4 Travers. Believe what you want I don't need to get hit with a brick to know I just watched a superstar run an amazing race. He is clearly a force to deal with and I feel sorry for ANY horse that has to face him. Right now he is not beatable.

[Kimsus]

One sprint does not get you ready to run the 1 1/4 Travers. Believe what you want I don't need to get hit with a brick to know I just watched a superstar run an amazing race. He is clearly a force to deal with and I feel sorry for ANY horse that has to face him. Right now he is not beatable.

No one is saying he is not a good horse, I do think he needs to answer a few questions before he is up there with Rachel and Zenyatta, and a healthy Summer Bird. It seems these type of wins always attract an overreaction which in a way isn't a bad thing due to last yr when we had such a dismal older horse division, atleast QR has some potential to do bigger things.

[ExoticDancer]

No one is saying he is not a good horse, I do think he needs to answer a few questions before he is up there with Rachel and Zenyatta, and a healthy Summer Bird. It seems these type of wins always attract an overreaction which in a way isn't a bad thing due to last yr when we had such a dismal older horse division, atleast QR has some potential to do bigger things.

Before he is up there with Zenyatta ??? You have to be joking. All year long I want you to do me a favor look at the races Quality Road runs in and look at the races the Classic winner runs in and compare side by side and then get back with me. So far Quality Road has already won a G1 race on dirt. Get back with me when Zenyatta does.

[Kimsus]

Before he is up there with Zenyatta ??? You have to be joking. All year long I want you to do me a favor look at the races Quality Road runs in and look at the races the Classic winner runs in and compare side by side and then get back with me. So far Quality Road has already won a G1 race on dirt. Get back with me when Zenyatta does.

We will see how this year goes, first and foremost I hope Rachel can be ready for the Apple Blossom in time, I believe this is a start that will even suffice your rather 1 dimensional thinking, but even after that I hope you accept results and stop making excuses if Zenyatta does beat Rachel, as I have noticed you have for Quality Road in the Travers. A coach of mine once told me excuses are for losers...anyway I don't know if you play sports but results are all that matters when it is done and over with. Regardless I think we can both agree this year will be an interesting one.

[Steve R]

The raw figure for QR's race was 128. There are a number of problems with coming up with the variant on the day. First, there was only one other two-turn dirt race on the day (race 1, a $6,250 claiming event for mares). I have that variant as 13 fast. Second, the variant between races 3 and 4 seems to be very different than race 6. Using all the dirt races, I'd peg the variant at fast by 10. But I'm betting there's some nuance to GP that I'm missing, so if someone makes figs here regularly, I'd like to see your number for the race. In my opinion, QR ran a 118 Beyer.
I generally concur. By my system, the two 9f races averaged 5 to 6 lengths fast while the three 8f races averaged about 5 lengths slow. If you include the 8f races, my estimate is BSF 121. However, there clearly was a difference in the variants at 8f and 9f. I have Quality Road's figure equivalent to a BSF of 116.

[ExoticDancer]

We will see how this year goes, first and foremost I hope Rachel can be ready for the Apple Blossom in time, I believe this is a start that will even suffice your rather 1 dimensional thinking, but even after that I hope you accept results and stop making excuses if Zenyatta does beat Rachel, as I have noticed you have for Quality Road in the Travers. A coach of mine once told me excuses are for losers...anyway I don't know if you play sports but results are all that matters when it is done and over with. Regardless I think we can both agree this year will be an interesting one.

that this will be a great year. But we do not agree with Zenyatta at all. She has done nothing on dirt and to pretend she is in the league with Quality Road and Rachel is just plain crazy. Let's see how Summerbird does vs. Quality Road after HIS injury. My guess is Quality Road can spot him 10 lengths.

[joanied]

Just so I understand what you are implying....you are saying that Zenyatta's connections entered her in order to get good seats and benefits Derby Weekend and then scratched her? That is quite a claim and really doesnt make too much sense IMO. Your contention really doesnt really fit the situation, as I am pretty sure the Moss family, given their financial situation, doesnt have to worry about getting good seats at the Derby with the kind of money they have......

Relwob...I used your quote because I'm a bit confused...but, if I am correct...fencebored and showmethewire beleive that the Mosses entered Zenyatta at Churchill last year to get good seats & perk's:confused: ...if that is the case...unbeleivable:bang:

She would have run if they hadn't sealed the track...coming from a lay off and all else considered...they made the right call...
and as you said...those folks do not ever have to worry about getting good seats/perks reagrdless of what track they visit. Jeeze:faint:

[joanied]

He was hurt ! Quality came back and ran very well in the Travers. Mud and not enough time were his enemy not the distance or anything else. If you didn't get that from the race yesterday I can't help you. When was the last time you saw a colt in a G1 race dominate like that and set a track record? Seems he set one last year at SARATOGA too but it seems a few on here forgot that. :confused:

Ya know...we really can't compare QR now to QR last year...for various reasons, including his having awful foot problems last year...and the fact he is now a year older (DUH:) )...and we all know that a lot can change from ages 3 to 4...
I will take the Donn at face value and apprecitate what I saw...and IMO, had his competition been better, he still would have won.
He is going to be one tough SOB (if his feet stay sound) and I can't wait for this older division to really get rollin' :jump:

[classhandicapper]

This is the way a sharp legitimate Grade 1 older horse handles Grade 2/3 type horses on dirt (for those who want to compare it to some of the weak infamous Grade 1 races on dirt from last year).

I should add, anyone notice that whenever there is a major race, there is almost always some kind of debate about what the figure was because the track was changing speeds, there weren't enough two turn races, the pace was extreme in one direction or another etc... Yet the same people will often argue with supreme confidence that a race with a 116 was better than a race with a 112. :lol:

[FenceBored]

Relwob...I used your quote because I'm a bit confused...but, if I am correct...fencebored and showmethewire beleive that the Mosses entered Zenyatta at Churchill last year to get good seats & perk's:confused: ...if that is the case...unbeleivable:bang:

She would have run if they hadn't sealed the track...coming from a lay off and all else considered...they made the right call...
and as you said...those folks do not ever have to worry about getting good seats/perks reagrdless of what track they visit. Jeeze:faint:

No, I floated a logical, yet completely insane, conspiracy theory (ala SMtW's Rachel injury garbage) and used SMtW's name around it to indicate that it was a conspiracy theory.

I've not seen any quotes in the press regarding a "sealed track," but John Sherriff's is quoted in the Bloodhorse days before the event saying that if the track is off, she'd be scratched.
“For her first race back we would like to have a decent track, so we will see how it goes,” said Shirreffs. “We are going to wait until the last minute to make a decision.”
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50534/zenyatta-may-not-run-on-oaks-undercard
I said last spring, and say again, scratching Zenyatta on Oaks day was completely reasonable and prudent. The joke was about how certain posters would spin it if it were a different horse.

[Moyers Pond]

Do you have blinders on? Did you watch the Travers last yr, Summer Bird was simply better than Quality Road and the track record he set last yr was in the Asterdam one race before the Travers so I don't get your reference he wasn't ready for the Travers, by the way tracks set track records not horses...

Off track for a horse that was dealing with foot issues. Quality Road is a significantly better horse than Summer Bird on a dirt track going 9f. Summer Bird might have an edge going longer, but talent wise Summer Bird is not in QR's league.

[Moyers Pond]

I am tired of all the excuses for Zenyatta. The one time it rains she scratches? She won't run if the weight is too high ? etc etc etc. There is always an excuse. Quality Road is out there and not hiding at all if you want him go get him and prove you're all that. She is the Classic winner for heaven sake act like it. Zenyatta is undefeated and a Classic winner yet she will go no where near Quality Road or Rachel until the Classic comes along. She will AGAIN take the easy route all year long. Quality Road dominated Graded Stakes winning horses with a record performance. His next race is the Met Mile. Where is Zenyatta ?

The clock continues to tick... when will Zenyatta take on G1 winning males on dirt ? tick tock tick tock

Yeah, all the excuses for a two time Breeders Cup winner that has won at every distance up to 10f, on dirt and poly, against boys and girls, and has NEVER lost. :D

Her career record is perfect with a ton of grade 1 wins. Who else can say that?

[Relwob Owner]

Off track for a horse that was dealing with foot issues. Quality Road is a significantly better horse than Summer Bird on a dirt track going 9f. Summer Bird might have an edge going longer, but talent wise Summer Bird is not in QR's league.


How do you support your theory that Quality Road is a significantly better horse than Summer Bird at 9F? Also, as anyone who follows racing closely knows, "talent" is only a small part of the equation....Quality Road is a very talented horse but based on his past, is lacking something in terms of mental toughness and the ability to stay healthy.....

[JeremyJet]

Terrific comparison....amazing how people are overreacting to one race and the same people come up with excuses(mud) for past races....I would love to hear the QR supporters talk about the quailty of horses that have finished behind him....I think it would get pretty quiet

Re: Quality of horse that finished behind him

He beat them by 12 lengths.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[Relwob Owner]

Relwob...I used your quote because I'm a bit confused...but, if I am correct...fencebored and showmethewire beleive that the Mosses entered Zenyatta at Churchill last year to get good seats & perk's:confused: ...if that is the case...unbeleivable:bang:

She would have run if they hadn't sealed the track...coming from a lay off and all else considered...they made the right call...
and as you said...those folks do not ever have to worry about getting good seats/perks reagrdless of what track they visit. Jeeze:faint:


JD,

I inquired but as is often the case when people write ridiculous stuff, I dont believe they responded....if that is what they meant, then I think they both are in the running for the most absurd post/theory of the year. It would fit if I owned the horse because I would definitely need the help with the perks/seats but not the Mosses!:)

[ExoticDancer]

Yeah, all the excuses for a two time Breeders Cup winner that has won at every distance up to 10f, on dirt and poly, against boys and girls, and has NEVER lost. :D

Her career record is perfect with a ton of grade 1 wins. Who else can say that?

Zenyatta is a 6 year old horse. How many wins does she have over 9 furlongs?
How many males has she beat on dirt ? No one cares what she has done on a poly surface most horse will not run on what has she done on dirt ??? Her big claim to fame is beating Ginger Punch ? Really ? How many G1 winning males did Ginger Punch beat ? :D

[FenceBored]

Just so I understand what you are implying....you are saying that Zenyatta's connections entered her in order to get good seats and benefits Derby Weekend and then scratched her? That is quite a claim and really doesnt make too much sense IMO. Your contention really doesnt really fit the situation, as I am pretty sure the Moss family, given their financial situation, doesnt have to worry about getting good seats at the Derby with the kind of money they have......

It's what I would be implying if I was a nut, which I'm not, so I'm not implying it. I thought of using <tinfoil></tinfoil>, but figured <Show_Me_the_Wire> was essentially the same thing at this point.

To recap: It ... was ... a ... joke.

[Relwob Owner]

It's what I would be implying if I was a nut, which I'm not, so I'm not implying it. I thought of using <tinfoil></tinfoil>, but figured <Show_Me_the_Wire> was essentially the same thing at this point.

To recap: It ... was ... a ... joke.


Got it...that is why I asked

[Relwob Owner]

Re: Quality of horse that finished behind him

He beat them by 12 lengths.

Regards,

JeremyJet


I wasnt asking about how much he beat the horses by....I was asking about who Quality Road has beaten in his career and it just isnt much. He had the chance to beat good horses in the Breeders Cup and couldnt get it together enough to compete in the race......

[classhandicapper]

Zenyatta is a 6 year old horse. How many wins does she have over 9 furlongs?
How many males has she beat on dirt ? No one cares what she has done on a poly surface most horse will not run on what has she done on dirt ??? Her big claim to fame is beating Ginger Punch ? Really ? How many G1 winning males did Ginger Punch beat ? :D

Can we please stop with his nonsense!

Zenyatta has beaten legitimate multiple Grade 1 winning turf and synthetic older males on a synthetic track. You can value that or not, but that surface has been her specialty and she has proven her greatness on it.

RA has never faced a legitimate Grade 1 older male on dirt. She beat 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring and summer when fillies are further along in their physical development than the colts and she beat marginal Grade 2 older males in the Woodward even though it was classified as a Grade 1 race. To be clear, I am not taking anything away from her campaign or her performances in those races. She was great. But they are two different horses doing two different things and shoud be compared relative to their peers.

If you want to see what a legitimate Grade 1 older male dirt horse looks like when he faces Grade 2 and Grade 3 horses just look at the Donn. If Rachel beats a field of horses like that now that the 3YO males are also reaching their peak, then she truly would have done something super unique in dirt racing.

[JeremyJet]

I wasnt asking about how much he beat the horses by....I was asking about who Quality Road has beaten in his career and it just isnt much. He had the chance to beat good horses in the Breeders Cup and couldnt get it together enough to compete in the race......

What's the Breeders Cup Classic have to do with anything? He wasn't in that race.

5 of his 9 lifetime races are 110+ Beyers. That's talent.

Btw, after further review, the Donn is now a 121 Beyer.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[ExoticDancer]

Can we please stop with his nonsense!

Zenyatta has beaten legitimate multiple Grade 1 winning turf and synthetic older males on a synthetic track. You can value that or not, but that surface has been her specialty and she has proven her greatness on it.

RA has never faced a legitimate Grade 1 older male on dirt. She beat 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring and summer when fillies are further along in their physical development than the colts and she beat marginal Grade 2 older males in the Woodward even though it was classified as a Grade 1 race. To be clear, I am not taking anything away from her campaign or her performances in those races. She was great. But they are two different horses doing two different things and shoud be compared relative to their peers.

If you want to see what a legitimate Grade 1 older male dirt horse looks like when he faces Grade 2 and Grade 3 horses just look at the Donn. If Rachel beats a field of horses like that now that the 3YO males are also reaching their peak, then she truly would have done something super unique in dirt racing.

Nonsense. The fact that you don't even recognize Rachel had one of the greatest 3 year old campaigns in history tells me your respect for racing history is minimal. No one cares what Zenyatta did on a poly track. Horses have been bred for more then a 100 years to run on dirt or turf. The fact that she is the best poly means she is Queen of the other 3000 that run on it not the 60000 that run on turf and dirt.

[Relwob Owner]

What's the Breeders Cup Classic have to do with anything? He wasn't in that race.

5 of his 9 lifetime races are 110+ Beyers. That's talent.

Btw, after further review, the Donn is now a 121 Beyer.

Regards,

JeremyJet



He was entered in the race but couldnt get his head together enough to start in the race and was scratched-I am assuming you know that? It has a ton to do with Quality Road because you never know where his head is at and whether he will get a decent start in the race, if he gets in the gate at all.


I am a huge proponent of Beyers. However, in Quality Road case, I would direct you to Chapter 3 of Beyer on Speed-"How was the figure Earned?".....he had everything his way yesterday-perfect trip, favorite track, terrible(for a G1) competition.......as a result, his number was huge. Look in his past races when he didnt have everything his way and he couldnt deliver such a performance.

[Moyers Pond]

He was entered in the race but couldnt get his head together enough to start in the race and was scratched-I am assuming you know that? It has a ton to do with Quality Road because you never know where his head is at and whether he will get a decent start in the race, if he gets in the gate at all.


I am a huge proponent of Beyers. However, in Quality Road case, I would direct you to Chapter 3 of Beyer on Speed-"How was the figure Earned?".....he had everything his way yesterday-perfect trip, favorite track, terrible(for a G1) competition.......as a result, his number was huge. Look in his past races when he didnt have everything his way and he couldnt deliver such a performance.

If he has a dry track he is as good as it gets. He clearly is in that Ghostzapper category, although GZ proved he could get 10f.

I would say Quality Road talent wise is better than Saint Liam, but not quite Ghostzapper, but it would not shock me if he ran a Met Mile figure that put him in the league with GZ. QR is as smooth as it gets. He is a machine.

[cj]

Is this the same Quality Road that got his ass kicked by Summer Bird twice, or is it Quality Road (BR*) or Quality Road (Arg*) or something like that?

[Spalding No!]

The question was when have you seen a horse demolish the field by 12 + lengths in a G1 AND set a track record? The Whitney performance was great but not equal to what we saw yesterday. :rolleyes:

Lawyer Ron ran away from them by nearly 5 lengths after a wide trip throughout. He also broke the Saratoga track record for 9f by nearly 2/5 of a second.

Ironically, Dry Martini was about 12 lengths back in 5th in that race.

[ExoticDancer]

Is this the same Quality Road that got his ass kicked by Summer Bird twice, or is it Quality Road (BR*) or Quality Road (Arg*) or something like that?

Got his ass kicked by Summerbird ? Really ? Well let's see how Summerbird does coming of injury and facing Quality Road. You bet Summerbird and I will hold your $$$. As a matter of fact if you EVER want to bet against Quality Road let me know and I will hold your money.

[Moyers Pond]

Is this the same Quality Road that got his ass kicked by Summer Bird twice, or is it Quality Road (BR*) or Quality Road (Arg*) or something like that?

Actually it is the Quality Road with foot problems that was running on an off track.

Quality Road is significantly more talented than Summer Bird on a fast dirt track.

It is a moot point though considering Quality Road is setting track records and running 120+ beyers while Summer Bird is sitting in the stall.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I sincerely hope that your enfatuation with Quality Road off of his "A Game" effort is shorter lived than mine was and you don't bury yourself at short odds waiting for another magical moment like I did.

[BluegrassProf]

I really must ask...

You think Zenyatta's unbeaten record to date - which naturally and importantly factors in the characteristics thereof, from geography to class of competition - is going to help her legacy in the long-term? Do you think that such a record truly speaks to the athlete's (read: her connections') competitiveness and effort, to a consistently challenging - and justifyably consistently rewarding - career?

I fundamentally disagree.

Hindsight is 20/20. In this case, it'll be a refreshing revelation for many.

Someone's bound to lose this year, particularly if seasons are appropriately waged....there's an excellent chance that Zenyatta will lose; there's an excellent chance that Rachel will lose. Rather than necessarily holding this against the competitor, we recognize it a characteristic of healthy, top-tier competition.

There's an old saying: Person or horse alike, he/she that goes through life unfailing isn't trying hard enough. I suggest we reassess the value of a loss - Z and RA people alike - as the fact is, a loss often speaks volumes.

Re: Quality Road...yikes, fabulous romp! I'm thrilled to see him back to form after the disasterous treatment he received at the SA gate (though I'm admittedly tired of the "he's a psycho in gates!" stuff, which is certainly untrue, despite the VERY visible BC incident).

That said, can I suggest that perhaps we should all be taking deep breaths before posting all of the "GREATEST THING IN RACING EVAR" commentary (and please understand, this is a sweeping statement, not limited solely to this thread)? I mean, the ship-jumping is making my head spin. I'm calling it the "RAZ Effect"...the hyper-emotionalizing of exceptional performances (the source of the name should be obvious). I understand that racing needs heroes, a notion drilled into our collective conciousness almost hourly, and that in this case, ol' QR ran a hell of a race. But c'mon....can't we temper our reactions a bit? Even speculation in the world of horseracing has its limits of rationality. :)

Not to be too hypercritical...just two thoughts for what they're worth. Carry on, carry on... :ThmbUp:

[cj]

Got his ass kicked by Summerbird ? Really ? Well let's see how Summerbird does coming of injury and facing Quality Road. You bet Summerbird and I will hold your $$$. As a matter of fact if you EVER want to bet against Quality Road let me know and I will hold your money.

Who said anything about betting. Much like Dean, I'm smart enough to know that one huge figure under ideal circumstances hardly qualifies a horse as great. You guys say he was coming off injury, I say he ran as well as he ever had and was beaten by a better horse.

[Moyers Pond]

I really must ask...

You think Zenyatta's unbeaten record to date - which naturally and importantly factors in the characteristics thereof, from geography to class of competition - is going to help her legacy in the long-term? Do you think that such a record truly speaks to the athlete's (read: her connections') competitiveness and effort, to a consistently challenging - and justifyably consistently rewarding - career?




:ThmbUp:

It sure will. If she is unbeaten at the end of the year she will be considered the greatest ever. She would have to stay healthy, but if she wins the BCC on dirt and poly and has THREE BC wins and an undefeated record of something like 20-20, she is #1 of all-time, especially considering she will have to beat Rachel Alexandra and Quality Road to get there.

[JeremyJet]

I am a huge proponent of Beyers. However, in Quality Road case, I would direct you to Chapter 3 of Beyer on Speed-"How was the figure Earned?".....he had everything his way yesterday-perfect trip, favorite track, terrible(for a G1) competition.......as a result, his number was huge. Look in his past races when he didnt have everything his way and he couldnt deliver such a performance.

Re: Deliver such a performance

In his 3rd lifetime start, while still eligible for N1X, he wins the Fountain of Youth with a 113 Beyer. In his 4th lifetime start he sets a new track record in the Florida Derby with a 111 Beyer. I'd say he delivered.

I don't expect any horse to run 120 Beyers right off the bat. That just doesn't happen.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[Relwob Owner]

Re: Deliver such a performance

In his 3rd lifetime start, while still eligible for N1X, he wins the Fountain of Youth with a 113 Beyer. In his 4th lifetime start he sets a new track record in the Florida Derby with a 111 Beyer. I'd say he delivered.

I don't expect any horse to run 120 Beyers right off the bat. That just doesn't happen.

Regards,

JeremyJet


How did he deliver in the Breeders Cup? How did he deliver in the Travers and Jockey Club Gold Cup? Great horses deliver consistently and dont lose(refer to Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta).....Quality Road seems to deliver when he is healthy(not often) and when everything is in his favor.....

[Relwob Owner]

If he has a dry track he is as good as it gets. He clearly is in that Ghostzapper category, although GZ proved he could get 10f.

I would say Quality Road talent wise is better than Saint Liam, but not quite Ghostzapper, but it would not shock me if he ran a Met Mile figure that put him in the league with GZ. QR is as smooth as it gets. He is a machine.


Why do people use the slop as an excuse for this horse. His Tomlinson number is 395, so I dont really get what that would work against him....seems to me like Summer Bird kicked his ass twice because he is simply a better horse


Also, how can you call a horse with foot issues and a tendency to freak out at the gate a "machine"??????? If Quality Road is a machine, he sure seems to not work a lot.....

[46zilzal]

If these two dyed in the wool front running sustained nags got together, that would be some match race.

[46zilzal]

Why do people use the slop as an excuse for this horse. His Tomlinson number is 395, so I dont really get what that would work against him....seems to me like Summer Bird kicked his ass twice because he is simply a better horse


..

Some theoretical number trumps what IS? Never

[depalma113]

She beat 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring and summer when fillies are further along in their physical development than the colts and she beat marginal Grade 2 older males in the Woodward even though it was classified as a Grade 1 race.

That is a myth. Most likely developed by trainers whose colts were defeaeted by fillies.

At the top level of horse racing 3 year-old fillies do not mature earlier than colts. The colts at the Grade One level are bigger, stronger and far more aggressive than their female counterparts. They are also far more intimidating.

One only has to look at over 100 years of history to see how rare it is for a filly to defeat colts at any level, let alone the Grade One level in their 3 year-old season.

[46zilzal]

She beat 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring and summer when fillies are further along in their physical development than the colts and she beat marginal Grade 2 older males in the Woodward even though it was classified as a Grade 1 race.

That is a myth. Most likely developed by trainers whose colts were defeaeted by fillies.

At the top level of horse racing 3 year-old fillies do not mature earlier than colts. The colts at the Grade One level are bigger, stronger and far more aggressive than their female counterparts. They are also far more intimidating.

One only has to look at over 100 years of history to see how rare it is for a filly to defeat colts at any level, let alone the Grade One level in their 3 year-old season.
VERY VERY few things in this game are happening for the very first time.

[delayjf]

I recall looking at QR and thinking he had the look of an improving 3yr old. yesterday was a step forward - we shall see.

truth is the mare was scratched because CD sealed the track
The truth is that two of RA best performances have come on sealed tracks.
His next race is the Met Mile. Where is Zenyatta ?
Racing Fans were asking the same thing at the Beldame and the BCC - Where's Rachel. Will her connections do what they did last year, wait until after Zenyatta has already run and then announce a week before the race that they are entering?

[ExoticDancer]

I recall looking at QR and thinking he had the look of an improving 3yr old. yesterday was a step forward - we shall see.


The truth is that two of RA best performances have come on sealed tracks.

Racing Fans were asking the same thing at the Beldame and the BCC - Where's Rachel. Will her connections do what they did last year, wait until after Zenyatta has already run and then announce a week before the race that they are entering?

I am tired of all the Zenyatta garbage. She is poly specialist WHoopeee. Until she does something on dirt this year I simply don't care just like the HOY voters didn't care. What she did out west on plastic just doesn't mean much. Win at Saratoga, Belmont, or Churchill and then say something. :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

To be clear, I am not taking anything away from her campaign or her performances in those races. She was great.Ummm...you're not?She beat 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring and summer when fillies are further along in their physical development than the colts and she beat marginal Grade 2 older males in the Woodward even though it was classified as a Grade 1 race.Sure sounds like you are...

[joanied]

No, I floated a logical, yet completely insane, conspiracy theory (ala SMtW's Rachel injury garbage) and used SMtW's name around it to indicate that it was a conspiracy theory.



I've not seen any quotes in the press regarding a "sealed track," but John Sherriff's is quoted in the Bloodhorse days before the event saying that if the track is off, she'd be scratched. “For her first race back we would like to have a decent track, so we will see how it goes,” said Shirreffs. “We are going to wait until the last minute to make a decision.”

-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50534/zenyatta-may-not-run-on-oaks-undercard

I said last spring, and say again, scratching Zenyatta on Oaks day was completely reasonable and prudent. The joke was about how certain posters would spin it if it were a different horse.Fencebored & Relwob...Ok, I got it now...fencebored, somewhere in this thread someone posted Sherriff's quote about sealing the track...but, I obviously agree that showmethewire's theory that Rachel has/had a soft tissue injury is completely outrageous...and it seems he even knows what type of injury...not just any ol' injury, mind you...IMO, his idea RA was/is hurting is well, as Trevor Denman once said...this is un-be-leivable!!

If Zenyatta was mine, no way I'd take a chance running her on that track, that day, after a lay off...they made the right call.

[joanied]

She beat 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring and summer when fillies are further along in their physical development than the colts and she beat marginal Grade 2 older males in the Woodward even though it was classified as a Grade 1 race.

That is a myth. Most likely developed by trainers whose colts were defeaeted by fillies.

At the top level of horse racing 3 year-old fillies do not mature earlier than colts. The colts at the Grade One level are bigger, stronger and far more aggressive than their female counterparts. They are also far more intimidating.

One only has to look at over 100 years of history to see how rare it is for a filly to defeat colts at any level, let alone the Grade One level in their 3 year-old season.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: who put out the idea that a 3 yr old filly is better developed than a 3 yr old colt...in general...nonsense!

[Cratos]

One only has to look at over 100 years of history to see how rare it is for a filly to defeat colts at any level, let alone the Grade One level in their 3 year-old season.

It is rare not because there were not very good fillies and mares to race against colts and geldings, but because it wasn’t normally accepted in racing for fillies and mares to race against colts and geldings at the top stakes level. Also at one time geldings was not allowed in the top stakes races,

Therefore what Rachel accomplished is not diminished by the historical facts, but enhanced by her feat of achievement.

[Relwob Owner]

Fencebored & Relwob...Ok, I got it now...fencebored, somewhere in this thread someone posted Sherriff's quote about sealing the track...but, I obviously agree that showmethewire's theory that Rachel has/had a soft tissue injury is completely outrageous...and it seems he even knows what type of injury...not just any ol' injury, mind you...IMO, his idea RA was/is hurting is well, as Trevor Denman once said...this is un-be-leivable!!

If Zenyatta was mine, no way I'd take a chance running her on that track, that day, after a lay off...they made the right call.


Joanie,

I guess they were kidding and I missed it! That would have definitely been the most unique criticism I have heard yet about Zenyatta!

[cpitt84]

How much do male and female horses differ in height and weight? I researched this online and there is little sexual dimorphism in horses.

[joanied]

Joanie,

I guess they were kidding and I missed it! That would have definitely been the most unique criticism I have heard yet about Zenyatta!

Yeah...this entire thread is becoming quite confusing, at least for me...I can hardly tell the difference between sarcastic, funny, wise ass posts and ones that are serious.
Oh,well:D

[Relwob Owner]

Yeah...this entire thread is becoming quite confusing, at least for me...I can hardly tell the difference between sarcastic, funny, wise ass posts and ones that are serious.
Oh,well:D


Well, I missed it too!

[joanied]

How much do male and female horses differ in height and weight? I researched this online and there is little sexual dimorphism in horses.

That is so individual, you really can't have any hard and fast 'rules' as to size, weight, even muscle mass...
one good and ammusing example took place last year when Baffert had Midnight Lute...a massive colt...folks said Zenyatta was bigger, so Baffert went to Sherriff's barn with a tape measure...sure enough, the mare is taller than Midnight Lute.

fact is, as a general rule of thumb, your 3 yr old colt is more mature than a 3 yr old filly...hard to explain, it's not neccessarily in terms of the physical, but that a 3 yr old colt is usually full of himself, intimidating, powerful in the way he'll carry himself, in comparison to a 3 yr old filly.
Hope that makes sense to you:)

[cpitt84]

That is so individual, you really can't have any hard and fast 'rules' as to size, weight, even muscle mass...
one good and ammusing example took place last year when Baffert had Midnight Lute...a massive colt...folks said Zenyatta was bigger, so Baffert went to Sherriff's barn with a tape measure...sure enough, the mare is taller than Midnight Lute.

fact is, as a general rule of thumb, your 3 yr old colt is more mature than a 3 yr old filly...hard to explain, it's not neccessarily in terms of the physical, but that a 3 yr old colt is usually full of himself, intimidating, powerful in the way he'll carry himself, in comparison to a 3 yr old filly.
Hope that makes sense to you:)

Thanks. If male and females hardly differ in size, I wonder why the sexes are segregated? Perhaps just tradition?

[letswastemoney]

Thanks. If male and females hardly differ in size, I wonder why the sexes are segregated? Perhaps just tradition?I believe that female horses on average are slower.

It doesn't mean that some aren't faster, but more female horses are slower than male horses.

And plus female horses probably do not like to be bumped around so much, while with male horses they could take it better I'm assuming.

[delayjf]

And plus female horses probably do not like to be bumped around so much, while with male horses they could take it better I'm assuming.

One advantage Zenyatta enjoys is her size - she is taller the Secretariat. Not sure how their weight compares.

[Nikki1997]

No, I floated a logical, yet completely insane, conspiracy theory (ala SMtW's Rachel injury garbage) and used SMtW's name around it to indicate that it was a conspiracy theory.

I've not seen any quotes in the press regarding a "sealed track," but John Sherriff's is quoted in the Bloodhorse days before the event saying that if the track is off, she'd be scratched.
“For her first race back we would like to have a decent track, so we will see how it goes,” said Shirreffs. “We are going to wait until the last minute to make a decision.”
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/50534/zenyatta-may-not-run-on-oaks-undercard
I said last spring, and say again, scratching Zenyatta on Oaks day was completely reasonable and prudent. The joke was about how certain posters would spin it if it were a different horse.

I don't believe you'll find Shirreff's comments about the sealed track in an article. His remarks came in an interview before the race on TVG. When he said he'd scratch Z if the track was sealed instead of floated, they showed the difference between sealing a track and harrowing a track.

[classhandicapper]

>>>Sure sounds like you are...<<

I think I am describing the reality of her performances.

IMO, there is a difference between a filly beating older legitimate Grade 1 males and beating 3YO Grade 1 males in the spring. I also think that Macho Again and Bullsbay will never be mixed up with legitimate Grade 1 older colts.

The fact that she strung together several super dominant and fast performances against 3YOs fillies and also beat quality colts in tough trip wins in the Preakness and Woodward puts her among the all time great fillies, but sometimes I think the perception of who she was actually beating gets out of line with reality because of the emotions of the Zenyatta and RA debate.