Wealthy Flee Jersey Taxes

[bigmack]

More than $70 billion in wealth left New Jersey between 2004 and 2008 as affluent residents moved elsewhere, according to a report released Wednesday that marks a swift reversal of fortune for a state once considered the nation’s wealthiest.
Conducted by the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College, the report found wealthy households in New Jersey were leaving for other states — mainly Florida, Pennsylvania and New York — at a faster rate than they were being replaced.

The exodus of wealth, then, local experts and economists concluded, was a reaction to a series of changes in the state’s tax structure — including increases in the income, sales, property and “millionaire” taxes.
“This study makes it crystal clear that New Jersey’s tax policies are resulting in a significant decline in the state’s wealth,” said Dennis Bone, chairman of the New Jersey Chamber of Commerce and president of Verizon New Jersey.

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/nj_loses_70b_in_wealth_over_fo.html

[mostpost]

More than $70 billion in wealth left New Jersey between 2004 and 2008 as affluent residents moved elsewhere, according to a report released Wednesday that marks a swift reversal of fortune for a state once considered the nation’s wealthiest.
Conducted by the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College, the report found wealthy households in New Jersey were leaving for other states — mainly Florida, Pennsylvania and New York — at a faster rate than they were being replaced.

The exodus of wealth, then, local experts and economists concluded, was a reaction to a series of changes in the state’s tax structure — including increases in the income, sales, property and “millionaire” taxes.
“This study makes it crystal clear that New Jersey’s tax policies are resulting in a significant decline in the state’s wealth,” said Dennis Bone, chairman of the New Jersey Chamber of Commerce and president of Verizon New Jersey.

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/nj_loses_70b_in_wealth_over_fo.html
So, they are moving to New York, Pennsylvania, and Florida because the taxes in those states are lower and therefore they will have more money. This shows the danger of obsessing with one factor in your assessment of your economic future.
I found this website which compares different cities in terms of salary and expenses. I tried to compare large metropolitan areas to large metropoitan areas, as it is obviously cheaper to live in a small rural town than in NYC.
I used Newark NJ as the base in New Jersey. Since we are talking about wealthy people I used a salary of $500,000.
Moving to New York City one would see his disposable income decline by $286,762.
Moving to Philadelphia, Pa. the decline would be $103,825.
A move to Pittsburgh, Pa. would cost $30,204
If you moved to Orlando, Fl. your disposable income would drop $51,467.
Finally, a move to Tampa, Fl. would see a drop of $52,237.
These are all annual figures.
Of course you could improve your bottom line by moving from a metropolitan area of NJ to a rural area of any of the other three states. But, you could do the same by moving to a rural area of New Jersey.
The website is:
http://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingWizard/layouthtmls/coll_metrodetail_119.html


Moving to New York City, one would lose

[Steve 'StatMan']

I don't think most of these people are leaving because of Salary vs Tax issues. They aren't necessarily leaving jobs and taking new ones. They have or had investments and property that was being taxed additionally, so have estate issues, and therefore sellling their homes/estates and leaving the state. Their investments and money go with them. Their estates when they die go through other states laws to get to the beneficiaries. Perhaps those that don't need to reside in NJ but can commute, or as the article says, enteprenuers, are free to move where they live, while they arrange their investments accordingly. So it isn't like they are moving and taking jobs where they either earn less money, or their dollar doesn't go as far. They are taking their existing/already earned/inherited dollars elsewhere.

Remembering an old joke from my banking days, "I got a job at the bank working on the floor above the vault. Now my assets (ass sits) over a billion dollars!"

[JustRalph]

read the article........it is very much about the estate tax ......where you live when you die is more important to these very wealthy people than the daily or yearly expenses, which they have much more control over. They are running away........... from the entire package..............

[mostpost]

I don't think most of these people are leaving because of Salary vs Tax issues. They aren't necessarily leaving jobs and taking new ones. They have or had investments and property that was being taxed additionally, so have estate issues, and therefore sellling their homes/estates and leaving the state. Their investments and money go with them. Their estates when they die go through other states laws to get to the beneficiaries. Perhaps those that don't need to reside in NJ but can commute, or as the article says, enteprenuers, are free to move where they live, while they arrange their investments accordingly. So it isn't like they are moving and taking jobs where they either earn less money, or their dollar doesn't go as far. They are taking their existing/already earned/inherited dollars elsewhere.

Remembering an old joke from my banking days, "I got a job at the bank working on the floor above the vault. Now my assets (ass sits) over a billion dollars!"
What you say is true, but if they're business owners moving there business to those states would they not be liable to those extra costs in regards to their business? And in their personal life? In other words if I move my business and I save $10,000 in taxes, but I'm paying $5,000 more in salary and $10,000 more in materials what are my benefits? Especially if I have to shell out $10,000 more for living expenses.

[boxcar]

Moving to New York City, one would lose

'Tis true, but look at the huge gain in the Patriotism Department.

Boxcar

[NJ Stinks]

I heard about this on the radio today. If you have that kind of money, you have more than enough reason to leave. The article noted the average net worth of those who left was $618,000. I would be more interested in knowing how many people worth - say - $10M or more left. Or, of the people who left, what the percentage was that left with $10M or more in assets. That would give us a chance to see how concentrated the wealth was among those who left. Which, in turn, would tell us how many left mainly due to taxes here vs. other reasons.

[bigmack]

That would give us a chance to see how concentrated the wealth was among those who left. Which, in turn, would tell us how many left mainly due to taxes here vs. other reasons.
Other reasons? Man, you guys are bordering on dimwitted.

They left because of the tax structure in your dopey state.

Spend more, raise taxes. :lol: :lol:

That world is over.

Get a brain - Money needs to move.

[lamboguy]

i live in mass. which has been declared taxachusetts. what i can say is the air is pretty clean and the water is drinkable in most places. the state taxes are high but the property taxes are reasonable for the property values and the services that you get. boston is a very high demand city, lots of people want to live here. yet the taxes could be lower if the polls quit handing out big paychecks to their freinds for useless jobs or giving out contracts to their freinds that the taxpayers over pay for. i am sure new jersey has similar problems. our leaders are not accountable at any level of government no matter which political party they belong to. in mass we have a brand new us senator in scott brown, he ran as a republican but it was really the teaparty that got him elected. what will be interesting here is if he cowtails to the republican party or does what the teaparty wants him to do.

[DRIVEWAY]

So, they are moving to New York, Pennsylvania, and Florida because the taxes in those states are lower and therefore they will have more money. This shows the danger of obsessing with one factor in your assessment of your economic future.
I found this website which compares different cities in terms of salary and expenses. I tried to compare large metropolitan areas to large metropoitan areas, as it is obviously cheaper to live in a small rural town than in NYC.
I used Newark NJ as the base in New Jersey. Since we are talking about wealthy people I used a salary of $500,000.
Moving to New York City one would see his disposable income decline by $286,762.
Moving to Philadelphia, Pa. the decline would be $103,825.
A move to Pittsburgh, Pa. would cost $30,204
If you moved to Orlando, Fl. your disposable income would drop $51,467.
Finally, a move to Tampa, Fl. would see a drop of $52,237.
These are all annual figures.
Of course you could improve your bottom line by moving from a metropolitan area of NJ to a rural area of any of the other three states. But, you could do the same by moving to a rural area of New Jersey.
The website is:
http://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingWizard/layouthtmls/coll_metrodetail_119.html


Moving to New York City, one would lose

New Jersey is a strange state. The cities are in total decay. Wealthy people do not live in Newark NJ.

If you want to do a comparison use Paramus, Saddle River, Hoboken or Far Hills.

NJ is suburbia plaln and simple.

[Robert Goren]

There are a lot of reasons to leave NJ. The reason why the wealthy are leaving is they have the money to get out. I am reasonably sure that a lot more people would leave if they could afford the moving van.

[NJ Stinks]

Other reasons? Man, you guys are bordering on dimwitted.

They left because of the tax structure in your dopey state.

Spend more, raise taxes. :lol: :lol:

That world is over.

Get a brain - Money needs to move.

Bigmack, do you ever see things as they really are?

Just wondering.

[NJ Stinks]

There are a lot of reasons to leave NJ. The reason why the wealthy are leaving is they have the money to get out. I am reasonably sure that a lot more people would leave if they could afford the moving van.

Don't get your premise. More people leave NJ because real estate is cheaper elsewhere than any other reason.

And, Robert, I assure you that I can afford the moving van but I ain't moving. (I realize that may be good news to you. :) )

As an aside, did anybody notice in that article that more people moved into NJ than moved out from 2004 to 2008? Personally, I wish more people would move out of here. We have too many people jammed into a small area.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Personally, I wish more people would move out of here. We have too many people jammed into a small area.

I know that feeling... the problem is that often in these situations, those that are disproportionately supporting the tax base are the ones that leave and those that are most reliant upon it remain, unable to bridge that gap.

[boxcar]

i live in mass. which has been declared taxachusetts. what i can say is the air is pretty clean and the water is drinkable in most places. the state taxes are high but the property taxes are reasonable for the property values and the services that you get. boston is a very high demand city, lots of people want to live here. yet the taxes could be lower if the polls quit handing out big paychecks to their freinds for useless jobs or giving out contracts to their freinds that the taxpayers over pay for. i am sure new jersey has similar problems. our leaders are not accountable at any level of government no matter which political party they belong to. in mass we have a brand new us senator in scott brown, he ran as a republican but it was really the teaparty that got him elected. what will be interesting here is if he cowtails to the republican party or does what the teaparty wants him to do.

That's odd, Lamby....'cause I would have sworn Brown won due to the overwhelming majority of the independent votes he received. But I supposed if the Independents have joined with the "teaparty"...who am I to complain? It certainly shows that the Independents have good taste. ;)

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Personally, I wish more people would move out of here. We have too many people jammed into a small area.

Don't let us stop you and don't the let door hit you on your way out. I think a few of us, at least, would be willing to buy you a one way ticket to China or North Korea or somewhere like that. Whadday say? Get a chance to see a little of the world, expand your horizons, have much closer encounters with communism, etc. Golden opportunity for you.... Who knows? Your visitation to such places might inspire you to write a book on all the benefits of collectivism.

Boxcar

[DRIVEWAY]

Don't let us stop you and don't the let door hit you on your way out. I think a few of us, at least, would be willing to buy you a one way ticket to China or North Korea or somewhere like that. Whadday say? Get a chance to see a little of the world, expand your horizons, have much closer encounters with communism, etc. Golden opportunity for you.... Who knows? Your visitation to such places might inspire you to write a book on all the benefits of collectivism.

Boxcar

if you were bought a oneway ticket, where would you want to go?

[boxcar]

if you were bought a oneway ticket, where would you want to go?

Two things: I can afford to buy my own ticket, thank you. Unlike, NJ, I wouldn't feel entitled to one, even if I couldn't. ;)

Secondly, I'm under no illusion that there's any such thing as utopia or paradise here on earth. I would stay right here in America, fight along side my fellow "teabaggers" and die for Freedom's sake and the sake of the next generation of Americans, if need be. I despise tyrannical governments -- for personal reasons, I might add.

However, having said all this, if I had to buy a ticket to somewhere, I would chose Israel because the Israelis, generally, have to be the most resourceful, industrious and courageous people on this planet.

Boxcar

[DRIVEWAY]

Two things: I can afford to buy my own ticket, thank you. Unlike, NJ, I wouldn't feel entitled to one, even if I couldn't. ;)

Secondly, I'm under no illusion that there's any such thing as utopia or paradise here on earth. I would stay right here in America, fight along side my fellow "teabaggers" and die for Freedom's sake and the sake of the next generation of Americans, if need be. I despise tyrannical governments -- for personal reasons, I might add.

However, having said all this, if I had to buy a ticket to somewhere, I would chose Israel because the Israelis, generally, have to be the most resourceful, industrious and courageous people on this planet.

Boxcar

If you went to Israel, you probably wouldn't be allowed to vote.

[boxcar]

If you went to Israel, you probably wouldn't be allowed to vote.

If they granted me citizenship status, why not?

Boxcar

[DRIVEWAY]

If they granted me citizenship status, why not?

Boxcar

Israel is a Theocracy.

[boxcar]

Israel is a Theocracy.

If Israel is a theocracy, why do they elect politicians over there? rolleyes:

Boxcar

[DRIVEWAY]

If Israel is a theocracy, why do they elect politicians over there? rolleyes:

BoxcarReturn

I don't qualify for citizenship. Maybe you do. See Below.


The Law of Return (http:///wiki/Law_of_Return) defines that all Jews possessing an Oleh (http:///wiki/Aliyah)'s certificate shall become Israel nationals (http:///wiki/Nationality) and allowed to immigrate to Israel. Such a certificate would almost automatically turn into Israeli citizenship upon arrival in Israel if so desired. In the 1970s the Law of Return was further expanded, and it was defined that the spouse of a Jew, the children of a Jew and their spouses, and the grandchildren of a Jew and their spouses would also be covered under the Law of Return and thus be eligible for an Oleh's certificate provided that the Jew on behalf of whom they request the certificate did not practice a religion other than Judaism willingly (he or she may, however, be a non-observant Jew). In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel (http:///wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Israel) ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion other than Judaism would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the provisions of the Law of Return.

Israeli legislators chose to make a clear distinction between the Law of Return, which allows for Jews and their descendants to immigrate to Israel, and between Israel's nationality law, which formally grants Israeli citizenship based on the Oleh's certificate. In other words, the Law of Return in and of itself does not determine Israeli citizenship; it merely allows for Jews and their eligible descendants to permanently relocate within the territory of Israel. The state of Israel does, however, grant citizenship to any applicant who immigrated to Israel via the Law of Return if the applicant so desires, though this is not mandated by the Law of Return itself.

Another important distinction should be made between Israeli citizens who live abroad and Jewish persons who are covered under the provisions of the Law of Return. A non-Israel Jew or an eligible descendant of a non-Israel Jew needs to request approval to immigrate to Israel, a request which can be denied for a variety of reasons including (but not limited to): possession of a criminal record, currently infected with a contagious disease, or otherwise viewed as a threat to Israeli society. Israeli citizens on the other hand are allowed to travel within the borders of Israel whenever they so desire without limitation. Israeli citizens are also the only persons allowed to obtain an Israeli passport. Eligible applicants under the Law of Return have no claim to any of the rights or privileges of an Israeli citizen unless they are formally cleared by the government, given an Oleh's certificate, and granted Israeli citizenship.

[skate]

Don't get your premise. More people leave NJ because real estate is cheaper elsewhere than any other reason.

And, Robert, I assure you that I can afford the moving van but I ain't moving. (I realize that may be good news to you. :) )

As an aside, did anybody notice in that article that more people moved into NJ than moved out from 2004 to 2008? Personally, I wish more people would move out of here. We have too many people jammed into a small area.

Oh oh oh now, sure, now you're gonna stay, with the new Gov and all.

I've not heard, but does he complain about the mess he inherited?

I do know, after a $3000 (the lowest i knew of) $4000 and $5000/year property tax, people did up and move Maine...

[Tom]

If you went to Israel, you probably wouldn't be allowed to vote.

After the last three presidential elections here, not voting is not such a bad thing. :bang:We put the 5 dumbest people in the world up for the highest office. These 5 couldn't get get out of jury duty.

[DRIVEWAY]

After the last three presidential elections here, not voting is not such a bad thing. :bang:We put the 5 dumbest people in the world up for the highest office. These 5 couldn't get get out of jury duty.

Bush, Gore, Kerry, McCain, Obama.
So which one is the dumbest person in the whole wide world?

[Tom]

Who else? ;)
JejYWMGNBxA

[Tom]

-0s4Gj7kGss

[NJ Stinks]

Oh oh oh now, sure, now you're gonna stay, with the new Gov and all.

I've not heard, but does he complain about the mess he inherited?



Christie has complained about what he inherited. I don't see how he's going to change anything because he's talking about cutting taxes. Do Republicans ever talk about anything but cutting taxes?

The other day his "transition team" recommended that Christie raise tolls and the state gasoline tax. Christie made headlines by saying he would do neither. So Christie created his own "story" about the possibility of increasing tolls and fuel tax and then boldly stated he wouldn't do it. (I expect Christie to be working for the New York Post down the road.)

Of course, another Christie transition team also recommended doing away with horseracing at the Meadowlands. We'll see how Christie reacts to this bit of news he created. :bang: (Four members of this transition team works or worked for casinos in Atlantic City. Do I think these members of the transition team would want to stop talks about slots at the Meadowlands once and for all? Yep.)

At any rate, Christie picked 14 people to be on gaming/sports/entertainment transition team. Four have casino jobs or did. One guy is in real estate. Two are or were involved somehow with running the NJ state lottery. One co-founded the YES Network and worked for the Yanks & Mets. One is Al Leiter, the ex-pitcher. One is an actor who I guess is a horseplayer - Vince Curatola from the Sopranos. One guy owns a horse farm in NJ. (This group are the folks who wound up recommending closing the Meadowlands among other things.)

Anyway, if you have any interest in what Christie's transition team wants to do to racing in NJ, here's the link:

[PDF]
DRAFT TRANSITION REPORT (http://www.state.nj.us/governor/news/reports/Gaming,%20Sports,%20and%20Entertainments.pdf)

[boxcar]

Return

I don't qualify for citizenship. Maybe you do. See Below.


The Law of Return (http:///wiki/Law_of_Return) defines that all Jews possessing an Oleh (http:///wiki/Aliyah)'s certificate shall become Israel nationals (http:///wiki/Nationality) and allowed to immigrate to Israel. Such a certificate would almost automatically turn into Israeli citizenship upon arrival in Israel if so desired. In the 1970s the Law of Return was further expanded, and it was defined that the spouse of a Jew, the children of a Jew and their spouses, and the grandchildren of a Jew and their spouses would also be covered under the Law of Return and thus be eligible for an Oleh's certificate provided that the Jew on behalf of whom they request the certificate did not practice a religion other than Judaism willingly (he or she may, however, be a non-observant Jew). In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel (http:///wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Israel) ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion other than Judaism would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the provisions of the Law of Return.

Israeli legislators chose to make a clear distinction between the Law of Return, which allows for Jews and their descendants to immigrate to Israel, and between Israel's nationality law, which formally grants Israeli citizenship based on the Oleh's certificate. In other words, the Law of Return in and of itself does not determine Israeli citizenship; it merely allows for Jews and their eligible descendants to permanently relocate within the territory of Israel. The state of Israel does, however, grant citizenship to any applicant who immigrated to Israel via the Law of Return if the applicant so desires, though this is not mandated by the Law of Return itself.

Another important distinction should be made between Israeli citizens who live abroad and Jewish persons who are covered under the provisions of the Law of Return. A non-Israel Jew or an eligible descendant of a non-Israel Jew needs to request approval to immigrate to Israel, a request which can be denied for a variety of reasons including (but not limited to): possession of a criminal record, currently infected with a contagious disease, or otherwise viewed as a threat to Israeli society. Israeli citizens on the other hand are allowed to travel within the borders of Israel whenever they so desire without limitation. Israeli citizens are also the only persons allowed to obtain an Israeli passport. Eligible applicants under the Law of Return have no claim to any of the rights or privileges of an Israeli citizen unless they are formally cleared by the government, given an Oleh's certificate, and granted Israeli citizenship.


I could easily fudge it, Driveby. ;)

Boxcar

[skate]

Bush, Gore, Kerry, McCain, Obama.
So which one is the dumbest person in the whole wide world?


the voter