If Zen-RA meet 5 times ...

[FenceBored]

So, if Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra face each other 5 times, in general how do you think the tally will look at the end of the year?

Notice the poll doesn't say win, but finish ahead of, cause there's always the possibility that they'll both lose to someone else.

[ExoticDancer]

If they met at Saratoga, Belmont, Churchill, Pimlico, and Monmouth I would say Rachel would win all 5 with ease. Why you ask? Because Rachel has proven she can race at these tracks and win while Zenyatta has not. ;)

[OTM Al]

...then we will have even more endless Rachel vs Zenyatta discussions.

[Kimsus]

This really is a popularity contest, therefore I won't vote.

[FenceBored]

I don't believe either girl will get through this year undefeated.

As to the question at hand? Of course, a lot depends on the distance and race shape, but I'll go with Rachel 3, Zenyatta 2.

[Robert Goren]

If Z hold her form from last year, I think she would win 3 times. She is now 6. This is an age when horses start to slip a little. Time is not on her side. It is too bad they could not have meet last year. There other factors such as Rabbits and Distance. JMO

[FenceBored]

This really is a popularity contest, therefore I won't vote.

It's a perfectly sensible pre-season poll. There are a number of unknowns, both known unknowns and unknown unknowns, but even so, if both these girls come back in top form and get race shapes that don't significantly prevent their top performance, which outcome is most likely, in your view.

And here I provided two perfectly fine non-commital answers and you weanie out on even those? :faint:

[miesque]

If Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra actually race against each other 5 times, I will show up at the track one day with a pink frilly dress and giant pink bow on my head (and keep in mind I loathe pink and frilly things) because its never going to happen.

[andymays]

This really is a popularity contest, therefore I won't vote.


That FenceBored is one devious dude and he must have some ulterior motive. :D

Stay tuned. I'm sure a hammer will drop on someone somewhere sometime. ;)

I'll say it's likely they meet 3 times providing they meet by the end of April.

[andymays]

That FenceBored is one devious dude and he must have some ulterior motive. :D

Stay tuned. I'm sure a hammer will drop on someone somewhere sometime. ;)

I'll say it's likely they meet 3 times providing they meet by the end of April.


I like the "public" poll Fence. A man with a plan. I'm sure you're taking down names. ;) :cool:

[delayjf]

If they met at Saratoga, Belmont, Churchill, Pimlico, and Monmouth I would say Rachel would win all 5 with ease.

The lone piece of evidense that we have with regards to Zenyatta running on dirt indicates that she has no problem running on dirt. If she could not beat Much Uno "with ease", she will not defeat Zenaytta with ease either.

I think at 1 1/16 or shorter RA would have the advantage, at 1 1/8 and longer Zenyatta. On turf Zenyatta on a sloppy track Rachel Alexandra.

[FenceBored]

If Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra actually race against each other 5 times, I will show up at the track one day with a pink frilly dress and giant pink bow on my head (and keep in mind I loathe pink and frilly things) because its never going to happen.

Oaks day, if they meet in the La Troienne, would be a good day for that outfit.

[Kimsus]

That FenceBored is one devious dude and he must have some ulterior motive. :D

Stay tuned. I'm sure a hammer will drop on someone somewhere sometime. ;)

I'll say it's likely they meet 3 times providing they meet by the end of April.

I'll settle for 1 meeting, realistically I am not too confident in Jess Jackson.

[Moyers Pond]

Rachel could NEVER beat Zenyatta at 10f, so the distance would matter. In 9f races it would depend on who else was in there. If there is no other speed Rachel would win every time.

I would say in 5 races, 3 at 9f, 2 at the Classic distance, Rachel wins 2 of 3 at 9f and Zenyatta sweeps the 2 at 10f.

So Zenyatta 3 Rachel 2.

I think the big one will be the BC Classic though at Churchill, and I suspect if Rachel shows up she will finish a good 10 behind Zenyatta. I bet she fights it out for 5th with another 9f horse like Quality Road.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Rachel could NEVER beat Zenyatta at 10f...

I think that she very well could and if it happened that the trackman clearly would have conspired to create a heavily speed biased track.

(just getting the excuses out in the forum preemptively.)

[Moyers Pond]

I think that she very well could and if it happened that the trackman clearly would have conspired to create a heavily speed biased track.

(just getting the excuses out in the forum preemptively.)

No shot. She was life and death to hold off MTB at 9.5f. Nothing in her pedigree or her race history suggests 10f is something she wants.

Zenyatta appears to be the ideal 10f horse. Great stamina with a huge closing kick to run down the 10f challenged horses.

If someone told me Zenyatta could never beat Rachel at 9f I would disagree but could see that argument. But there is simply no way Rachel could beat any talented 10f horse in a 10f race. She is very vulnerable once she hits the 9f mark, just like her daddy, who was brilliant at 9f (6-6 I believe) and very average at 10f (maybe 2 for 6).

[NTamm1215]

No shot. She was life and death to hold off MTB at 9.5f. Nothing in her pedigree or her race history suggests 10f is something she wants.

Zenyatta appears to be the ideal 10f horse. Great stamina with a huge closing kick to run down the 10f challenged horses.

If someone told me Zenyatta could never beat Rachel at 9f I would disagree but could see that argument. But there is simply no way Rachel could beat any talented 10f horse in a 10f race. She is very vulnerable once she hits the 9f mark, just like her daddy, who was brilliant at 9f (6-6 I believe) and very average at 10f (maybe 2 for 6).

You don't use pace when handicapping at all, do you?

NT

[Kimsus]

No shot. She was life and death to hold off MTB at 9.5f. Nothing in her pedigree or her race history suggests 10f is something she wants.

Zenyatta appears to be the ideal 10f horse. Great stamina with a huge closing kick to run down the 10f challenged horses.

If someone told me Zenyatta could never beat Rachel at 9f I would disagree but could see that argument. But there is simply no way Rachel could beat any talented 10f horse in a 10f race. She is very vulnerable once she hits the 9f mark, just like her daddy, who was brilliant at 9f (6-6 I believe) and very average at 10f (maybe 2 for 6).

Though I don't necessarily disagree that Zenyatta would have the advantage at 1 1/4 or farther...I think the bigger question is will Rachel progress as a 3 yr old to a 4 yr old. In my humble opinion there is a bigger chance at regression from ages 2-3 and 3-4 than for older horses, added on we haven't seen her in 6 months and it will likely be closer to 8-9 months until we see her racea again, it is a legitimate question mark.?

[delayjf]

You don't use pace when handicapping at all, do you?

Not as affective (which is not to say worthless) at 1 1/4. It would be IF RA can handle the distance, but if she cannot - her pace advantage will not save her.

4 than for older horses, added on we haven't seen her in 6 months and it will likely be closer to 8-9 months until we see her racea again, it is a legitimate question mark.?

I think it is a legitimate question, especially for a fillie.

[Stevie Belmont]

Pace, distance and other dynamnics are factors in any race.

Zenyatta will certainly have an advantage the longer the race is. Rachel Alexandra is a very fast horse and has put away everyone she has faced on the front end—but she has the ability to rate as well—just another reason she is special horse. She is a 4-year-old now—the scary thought is—she could be better then last year—or on the flip side digress a little. She is freak. And freaks usually keep the greatness throughout their career.

Zenyatta will have to go get her. The question if she can—The first sentence can help answer some of those questions. I can't speculate until we know when and where. I think Zenny can do just about anything. This would be her biggest challenge yet.

It will be a humdinger...

Classic stamina vs pure speed—let's just hope it actually happens.

In a real race—no dumb match race

[bisket]

Pace, distance and other dynamnics are factors in any race.

Zenyatta will certainly have an advantage the longer the race is. Rachel Alexandra is a very fast horse and has put away everyone she has faced on the front end—but she has the ability to rate as well—just another reason she is special horse. She is a 4-year-old now—the scary thought is—she could be better then last year—or on the flip side digress a little. She is freak. And freaks usually keep the greatness throughout their career.

Zenyatta will have to go get her. The question if she can—The first sentence can help answer some of those questions. I can't speculate until we know when and where. I think Zenny can do just about anything. This would be her biggest challenge yet.

It will be a humdinger...

Classic stamina vs pure speed—let's just hope it actually happens.

In a real race—no dumb match race
stevie babe the key phrase there is zen can do anything. thats the key to the whole kit and kaboodle. she doesn't need a certain set up. thats her biggest advantage and the reason i voted 3 wins for her. :ThmbUp:

[Jackal]

Oaklawn Park is supposed to announce the race of the century tomorrow (2/4/10). Maybe they will announce a date for RA vs Z.

[Cratos]

No shot. She was life and death to hold off MTB at 9.5f. Nothing in her pedigree or her race history suggests 10f is something she wants.

Zenyatta appears to be the ideal 10f horse. Great stamina with a huge closing kick to run down the 10f challenged horses.

If someone told me Zenyatta could never beat Rachel at 9f I would disagree but could see that argument. But there is simply no way Rachel could beat any talented 10f horse in a 10f race. She is very vulnerable once she hits the 9f mark, just like her daddy, who was brilliant at 9f (6-6 I believe) and very average at 10f (maybe 2 for 6).

You are almost correct about Medaglia d'Oro’s lifetime winning stats at 1 1/8 miles and 1 ¼ miles.

He was 5/6 at the distance of 1 1/8th miles: losing only to Buddha in the 2002 Wood. At distances beyond 1 1/8 miles he was a dismal failure in winning only 1/7 and that was the 2002 Travers at Saratoga in the pedestrian time of 2:02.53 on a sloppy track; he did get the lead in the 2002 Belmont at the 1 ¼ mile point of that race with a ½ length over Proud Citizen in a slow time of 2:05.50. The 2002 Belmont was eventually won by Sarava in a lackluster time of 2:29.71.

Incidentally, Medaglia d'Oro’s best Beyer was 120.

However to comment on the question about Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra in the same race, the edge should go to Zenyatta because she has enough speed to stay close up to the 1 1/16th point of a race at 1 1/8th miles or longer and has the powerful kick to finish the race.

Rachel will be stronger and better in 2010, but she wasn’t bred to go beyond 1 1/8th mile and consistently win; Zenyatta out of Street Cry is a monster as the distance gets longer. Another point to consider is that Zenyatta is not a normal 6yo racehorse becase she has only raced two years and lightly at that.

In the BC 2008 Ladies Classic at Santa Anita in 1 1/8th miles; Zenyatta destroyed a good field coming from dead last at the ¾ mark of the race to win in 1:46.85.

[letswastemoney]

I cannot stand it when people say X horse will NEVER lose.

Horses are not machines...anything can happen. Even Secretariat lost a couple of times.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know some folks don't put much stock into Dosage and whatnot, but when you look at the following, RA actually seems to have a profile geared less towards speed and more towards stamina than Zenyatta, although Zenyatta is top heavy in the Classic category (14 vs 7). Point being, Rachel's pedigree, at least Dosage-wise, does not indicate at all that she should have trouble at ten furlongs:

ZENYATTA (USA) dkb/br. F, 2004 DP = 6-3-14-1-0 (24) DI = 2.00 CD = 0.58 - 14 Starts, 14 Wins, 0 Places, 0 Shows Career Earnings: $5,474,580
RACHEL ALEXANDRA (USA) b. F, 2006 DP = 3-2-7-2-0 (14) DI = 1.55 CD = 0.43 - 14 Starts, 11 Wins, 2 Places, 0 Shows Career Earnings: $2,948,354

[lamboguy]

not going by dossage i would just look at running styles and i would think that the longer the race the tougher it would be for ZENYATTA to catch RACHEL ALEXANDRA. at a mile and a sixteenth i would give ZENYATTA a big shot.

[Relwob Owner]

I cannot stand it when people say X horse will NEVER lose.

Horses are not machines...anything can happen. Even Secretariat lost a couple of times.


That makes the most sense of anything I have read on this thread....the quickest way to get people to stop listening to you in a horse racing debate is to say something like "no shot"...anyone with a decent understanding of racing knows anything can happen in any race and that there are a ton of variables involved....

[Kimsus]

not going by dossage i would just look at running styles and i would think that the longer the race the tougher it would be for ZENYATTA to catch RACHEL ALEXANDRA. at a mile and a sixteenth i would give ZENYATTA a big shot.

Since this is a conversation of hypotheticals, do you think she would have benefitted if the Wood Memorial was a furlong father last year? Anyone who doesn't think Zenyatta would have caught and outfinished her is clearly not thinking straight...

[FenceBored]

Since this is a conversation of hypotheticals, do you think she would have benefitted if the Wood Memorial was a furlong father last year? Anyone who doesn't think Zenyatta would have caught and outfinished her is clearly not thinking straight...

I don't think it would have made a difference. I Want Revenge was much the best that day, and would have been even at 1 1/4.

[PaceAdvantage]

PS. I am no dosage/breeding expert...so if anyone would like to rip apart what little I wrote a few replies above, be my guest...I'm sure there are much better interpretations out there (and I believe we've discussed this subject as it pertains to Rachel here on this site before, but since when has that stopped us?)....

[Kimsus]

I don't think it would have made a difference. I Want Revenge was much the best that day, and would have been even at 1 1/4.

My mistake I mean't the Wood Memorial. No question Zenyatta would have caught and past her especially if the race was a furlong farther, but as I said there are alot of hypotheticals in this thread, but this one is easy to deduce for any straight thinking observer.

[OTM Al]

Hey PA, what I know of it, I would have to say that the statement made on CD and DI between the two would not be quite correct to interpret in that way. While the organization of the points when plugged into the formula does say that the influences that RA tends more to endurance than speed, her total amount of influence is far less than Z. The key figure is the middle one. Z has 14 Classic distance points and RA only 7, so while RA skews her points more to distance, Z has more distance influence. Of course this is no science and will always lag because influence is only given after many years of breeding.

[PaceAdvantage]

My mistake I mean't the Wood Memorial. No question Zenyatta would have caught and past her especially if the race was a furlong farther, but as I said there are alot of hypotheticals in this thread, but this one is easy to deduce for any straight thinking observer.No it's not. Really. It's not. And you shall see why when the two meet up over a dirt surface.

[FenceBored]

Hey PA, what I know of it, I would have to say that the statement made on CD and DI between the two would not be quite correct to interpret in that way. While the organization of the points when plugged into the formula does say that the influences that RA tends more to endurance than speed, her total amount of influence is far less than Z. The key figure is the middle one. Z has 14 Classic distance points and RA only 7, so while RA skews her points more to distance, Z has more distance influence. Of course this is no science and will always lag because influence is only given after many years of breeding.

Exactly, MdO may end up as a (C)lassic Chef de Race and that would bump RA's figures significantly, but only time will tell.

[FenceBored]

My mistake I mean't the Wood Memorial. No question Zenyatta would have caught and past her especially if the race was a furlong farther, but as I said there are alot of hypotheticals in this thread, but this one is easy to deduce for any straight thinking observer.

What? :confused:

Or, are you meaning it like 'right' as in 'any right thinking person?'

[Kimsus]

No it's not. Really. It's not. And you shall see why when the two meet up over a dirt surface.

The race dymamics were not in Rachel's favor in the Woodward, many(mostly her fans) have pointed out that was what was special about the peformance when the discussion turns to she beat only Macho Again, with this in mind w/o prejudice or bias how can anyone think she would have benefitted if the race was run at 1 1/4? In addition how can anyone believe Macho Again even at his best is a superior animal to Zenyatta? Even the harshest Zenyatta critic cannot in good conscience try to pawn this off...In this singular case Zenyatta would have been at an extreme advantage given the pace scenario, if not then someone please explain why?

[PaceAdvantage]

For starters, the Woodward is a prime example as to why I think Rachel could benefit from a rider switch, which I posted originally in another thread.

Secondly, if Zenyatta catches a decent trip AND takes to the Saratoga dirt surface, yes, she probably catches RA in the Woodward, especially if the race is at 10f and especially if the SAME EXACT dynamics are in play.

However, I don't believe Rachel would have been ridden the way she was in the Woodward had Zenyatta been in the race, and especially so if RA has a different jockey on her back.

RA's connections would have been much more fearful of a top quality closer such as Zenyatta than they were with Macho Again, thus I don't believe the race dynamics play out in the same way with Zenyatta in the race.

Of course, I could be wrong, which is why it will be so special when these two meet up. One of us gets to say "See, I told you so!" :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

For starters, the Woodward is a prime example as to why I think Rachel could benefit from a rider switch, which I posted originally in another thread............................................ ..................

Secondly, if Zenyatta catches a decent trip AND takes to the Saratoga dirt
RA's connections would have been much more fearful of a top quality closer such as Zenyatta than they were with Macho Again, thus I don't believe the race dynamics play out in the same way with Zenyatta in the race.

Of course, I could be wrong, which is why it will be so special when these two meet up. One of us gets to say "See, I told you so!" :lol:

Effectively you are saying R.A.'s jock or the trainer thought the easiest way to win was to take the lead, build up a big enough lead, to hold off the closers, based on the lack of quickness and quality closers in the field. The above sounds strangely familiar to my previous postings about ways to win a race and the quality of the field.

Thus, it seems you believe with a more prolific closer in the field R.A. would have had to run a different pace. I agree with you.

[PaceAdvantage]

And the fact that RA can do this is what makes her so dangerous against a one-run closer like Zenyatta....on DIRT.

It will be very interesting when they meet...that we can all agree upon...

[Show Me the Wire]

And the fact that RA can do this is what makes her so dangerous against a one-run closer like Zenyatta....on DIRT.

It will be very interesting when they meet...that we can all agree upon...

Absolutely correct.

[Kimsus]

The one observation that hasn't been said or atleast I have not seen, is Rachel went to the lead on her on, WITHOUT any urging from Borel...She has natural speed so it shouldn't hurt her, to me Borel thought she was doing it comfortably enough that he just left her alone, thinking it was more risky to fight with her throughout the body of the race, the problem here is the majority of riders know she was the horse to beat so they thought if we just leave her alone, why even show up...serve it up on a platter for her...Borel is being blamed unfairly here, this is horseracing and that is what the really good horses do, shrug off challenges and kick on...I'm sure if she was strangled back and then lost, Borel would have been booted off the planet for a supposed bad ride. The only way Rachel could have run a different race was if Borel took a hold of her at the start, and there is no telling if Rachel as keyed up as she was would have stayed there.

[cj]

If Zenyatta is to have a chance against Rachel, it will need to be a race open to males as well. There are no females around that will provide any real pace pressure to Rachel. She has proven she can rate off of horses that aren't real competition and blow by them late. Judging by her total disdain for all members of the same sex, I can't imagine any scenario where she is racing in an uncomfortable position.

[Kimsus]

And the fact that RA can do this is what makes her so dangerous against a one-run closer like Zenyatta....on DIRT.

It will be very interesting when they meet...that we can all agree upon...

She's not a one run closer, but we will see. Plus she was not half bad in her only dirt try.

[Show Me the Wire]

The one observation that hasn't been said or atleast I have not seen, is Rachel went to the lead on her on, WITHOUT any urging from Borel...She has natural speed so it shouldn't hurt her, to me Borel thought she was doing it comfortably enough that he just left her alone........

I've been saying and arguing this point for many threads and posts., I even quoted the official DRF chart, which shows R.A. took the lead easily, as DaTara was off slow.

[PaceAdvantage]

She's not a one run closer, but we will see. Plus she was not half bad in her only dirt try.For the life of me, I can't understand why Zenyatta backers insist on 10f in a meeting with Rachel, as if the great Zenyatta needs to carry around preconditions with her...

She won the Apple Blossom ON DIRT at 8.5 furlongs!

However, she has been either LAST or SECOND TO LAST early on in every one of her career starts, except for one where she was third to last early on. She makes one long extended run...she's probably too big to be any more versatile than that...

[joanied]

The one observation that hasn't been said or atleast I have not seen, is Rachel went to the lead on her on, WITHOUT any urging from Borel...She has natural speed so it shouldn't hurt her, to me Borel thought she was doing it comfortably enough that he just left her alone, thinking it was more risky to fight with her throughout the body of the race, the problem here is the majority of riders know she was the horse to beat so they thought if we just leave her alone, why even show up...serve it up on a platter for her...Borel is being blamed unfairly here, this is horseracing and that is what the really good horses do, shrug off challenges and kick on...I'm sure if she was strangled back and then lost, Borel would have been booted off the planet for a supposed bad ride. The only way Rachel could have run a different race was if Borel took a hold of her at the start, and there is no telling if Rachel as keyed up as she was would have stayed there.

I just posted in the thread about Z & RA meeting...will you be there...a poster used the quote from Nerud about Calvin hitting RA so much in the Woodward...
I agree here that Calvin did the right thing with Rachel during the race...9 times outta 10, it's best not to strangle a horse back...that is common sense...and she looked as if she was going very easy, all on her own...I agree, if Calvin had pulled her off the pace, and they'd lost...there would have been hell to pay...
my problem with his ride was all the hitting during the stretch...as I said in my other post, we don't know what Calvin was feeling during that stretch run...maybe he felt her respond just a little every time...but IMO, once Calvin gets to using the whip, he gets too far off the saddle and moves around too much...it makes me feel off balance, and makes me wonder if the mare doesn't feel the same way...off balance...IMO, Calvin needs to sit low, and keep his arms 'quiet'...hit her a few times if he feels it necessary, but, IMO, most horses will actually stop responding when they are hit toomany times...sometimes less is more.
:)
:)

[lamboguy]

Since this is a conversation of hypotheticals, do you think she would have benefitted if the Wood Memorial was a furlong father last year? Anyone who doesn't think Zenyatta would have caught and outfinished her is clearly not thinking straight...
with the way the woodward was run last year ZENYATTA probably would have caught her if RACHEL ran that way. but that is not to say that RACHELS instructions would have been the same had ZENYATTA been in it. i really don't see ZENYATTA beating RACHEL in a longer distance race that has all fillies and mares in it. in a mile and an eighth it would be real tough for the z-lady to catch her. a shorter distance would benefit ZENYATTA. in any even even if i am wrong it will be alot of fun to watch.

[Kimsus]

I've been saying and arguing this point for many threads and posts., I even quoted the official DRF chart, which shows R.A. took the lead easily, as DaTara was off slow.

Charts can be misleading but If one watches the race, she did it on her on and very easily, Calvin even had a good hold of her. Can she rate? Yes we have seen that from some of her races, question is would she rate in this race? Hard to tell.

[Kimsus]

For the life of me, I can't understand why Zenyatta backers insist on 10f in a meeting with Rachel, as if the great Zenyatta needs to carry around preconditions with her...

She won the Apple Blossom ON DIRT at 8.5 furlongs!

However, she has been either LAST or SECOND TO LAST early on in every one of her career starts, except for one where she was third to last early on. She makes one long extended run...she's probably too big to be any more versatile than that...

I think she will be even better on dirt, alot of people who have disdain for poly-centric tracks always seem to think horses that run exclusively over it are inferior or slow...I think back to just last year when Papa Clem and I Want Revenge actually improved when they went to dirt, though it is impossible to see how Zenyatta has progressed since the Apple Blossom 2 years ago, I am in the corner that we have't seen her best dirt race yet and she will actually benefit from running over it.

[Dahoss9698]

The one observation that hasn't been said or atleast I have not seen, is Rachel went to the lead on her on, WITHOUT any urging from Borel...She has natural speed so it shouldn't hurt her, to me Borel thought she was doing it comfortably enough that he just left her alone, thinking it was more risky to fight with her throughout the body of the race, the problem here is the majority of riders know she was the horse to beat so they thought if we just leave her alone, why even show up...serve it up on a platter for her...Borel is being blamed unfairly here, this is horseracing and that is what the really good horses do, shrug off challenges and kick on...I'm sure if she was strangled back and then lost, Borel would have been booted off the planet for a supposed bad ride. The only way Rachel could have run a different race was if Borel took a hold of her at the start, and there is no telling if Rachel as keyed up as she was would have stayed there.

Just because she wasn't urged, doesn't mean she needed to be dueling on the lead going quick fractions. It also doesn't mean she was doing it easily. Not many horses run quick up front and have enough left late. She has a lot of natural speed, but in her two closest races, she was needlessly involved in quick duels (Preakness and Woodward).

Borel gets a mulligan in the Preakness because from the post, and the way she won in the KY Oaks I'm sure he thought it didn't matter what he did, she was going to win. I thought the Woodward ride wasn't one of his better moments. I'm not really concerned with the whipping, it was done with the new whips that according to many horseman, the horses barely feel. It might have been a bit excessive, but I'd rather a jock lose trying like that. My issue was I think he sort of panicked. He knew the target was on his back and instead of showing the poise he had in the Haskell, he got involved way too early.

If she could rate off a very good sprinter like Munnings, no reason she couldn't rate off a horse like D'Tara. Instead she was subjected to dueling with him, followed by having to disperse of Past The Point. It's all hypothetical, but with a different ride she wins that race like she did the Haskell.

[46zilzal]

Without knowing the pace scenario and the racing surfaces, that is pure guesswork

[Dahoss9698]

Without knowing the pace scenario and the racing surfaces, that is pure guesswork

Nothing gets past you. Isn't that what this entire thread is?

[FenceBored]

I really do need to take the time to review the Byk shows from Woodward week. I remember him saying the day of the draw that he had talked with Scott Blasi, who said that Rachel was going to be sent. I think he talked with Blasi on the radio either the day or two before the race, or early the next week and Blasi reiterated that it was the plan for Borel to go to the lead. I thought it was dumb then, I think it was dumb now, but it was not solely Borel's decision.

[Kimsus]

Just because she wasn't urged, doesn't mean she needed to be dueling on the lead going quick fractions. It also doesn't mean she was doing it easily. Not many horses run quick up front and have enough left late. She has a lot of natural speed, but in her two closest races, she was needlessly involved in quick duels (Preakness and Woodward).

Borel gets a mulligan in the Preakness because from the post, and the way she won in the KY Oaks I'm sure he thought it didn't matter what he did, she was going to win. I thought the Woodward ride wasn't one of his better moments. I'm not really concerned with the whipping, it was done with the new whips that according to many horseman, the horses barely feel. It might have been a bit excessive, but I'd rather a jock lose trying like that. My issue was I think he sort of panicked. He knew the target was on his back and instead of showing the poise he had in the Haskell, he got involved way too early.

If she could rate off a very good sprinter like Munnings, no reason she couldn't rate off a horse like D'Tara. Instead she was subjected to dueling with him, followed by having to disperse of Past The Point. It's all hypothetical, but with a different ride she wins that race like she did the Haskell.

I can see it from both ways, I think it's far too easy to blame Borel. It's the most obvious after race reaction but unless you are riding the horse no one knows for sure if she would have rated kindly, look I've seen horses rate before and for whatever reason get keyed up and don't want no part of it in others. Borel had a good hold of her, he would have had to forced her to take back, maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. One way or the other it wasn't a foregone conclusion, horses have their own minds and one thing is certain you do not want to fight a horse when they want to run, that is a recipe for disaster if you are on one that is fighting the rider.

[46zilzal]

Nothing gets past you. Isn't that what this entire thread is?
no it is an outcome speculation with no substance

[cj]

no it is an outcome speculation with no substance

Then why are you so interested that you need to post?

[Dahoss9698]

I can see it from both ways, I think it's far too easy to blame Borel. It's the most obvious after race reaction but unless you are riding the horse no one knows for sure if she would have rated kindly, look I've seen horses rate before and for whatever reason get keyed up and don't want no part of it in others. Borel had a good hold of her, he would have had to forced her to take back, maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. One way or the other it wasn't a foregone conclusion, horses have their own minds and one thing is certain you do not want to fight a horse when they want to run, that is a recipe for disaster if you are on one that is fighting the rider.

I've watched all of rachel's races many times. I don't ever recall her fighting a rider. I do appreciate your stance here though, considering your stance about Rosier in the Derby. At least you are consistent. :rolleyes:

[Dahoss9698]

no it is an outcome speculation with no substance

Again, considering the entire thread is a guess, with no idea of track, pace or track condition this is what were are left with.

Don't you have some redboarding to do?

[Cardus]

I really do need to take the time to review the Byk shows from Woodward week. I remember him saying the day of the draw that he had talked with Scott Blasi, who said that Rachel was going to be sent. I think he talked with Blasi on the radio either the day or two before the race, or early the next week and Blasi reiterated that it was the plan for Borel to go to the lead. I thought it was dumb then, I think it was dumb now, but it was not solely Borel's decision.

Who is this "Byk" fellow?

[FenceBored]

Who is this "Byk" fellow?

Steve Byk, host of "At the Races" 4-7 ET Mon-Fri on Sirius and XM satellite radio. If you don't subscribe to either of the services, or the time is inconvenient for you, you can get the podcasts off the website (http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/).

[Kimsus]

I've watched all of rachel's races many times. I don't ever recall her fighting a rider. I do appreciate your stance here though, considering your stance about Rosier in the Derby. At least you are consistent. :rolleyes:

Given that I might be edited or censored, here's my reply...funny thing on a forum where differing opinions should be welcomed, if you watch the Woodward race again you will notice Borel's arms in full hold mold, how was he supposed to drag Rachel back without some sort of resistance? As for Rosier you know my stance on that already so there is no need to rehash it here, if you want to talk about it then pm a site where we can rehash it. But if you like his ride, you can have him in all your derby bets. I'll go with a more experienced rider.

[FenceBored]

Given that I might be edited or censored, here's my reply...funny thing on a forum where differing opinions should be welcomed, if you watch the Woodward race again you will notice Borel's arms in full hold mold, how was he supposed to drag Rachel back without some sort of resistance? As for Rosier you know my stance on that already so there is no need to rehash it here, if you want to talk about it then pm a site where we can rehash it. But if you like his ride, you can have him in all your derby bets. I'll go with a more experienced rider.

To paraphrase Henny Youngman, "take my Gomez ... PLEASE!" :D

[Show Me the Wire]

Charts can be misleading but If one watches the race, she did it on her on and very easily, Calvin even had a good hold of her. Can she rate? Yes we have seen that from some of her races, question is would she rate in this race? Hard to tell.

I agree, from what I saw R.A. did it on her own and in hand as the chart caller called it. I quoted the objective chart comment's to bolster the postiton R.A. was not involved in some suicidal pace duel, as some believe, or that R.A. was running out of her comfort zone.

In this case the chart comments were right on the mark. R.A. set the fractions, while in her comfort zone and not being asked by Borel.

[Dahoss9698]

Given that I might be edited or censored, here's my reply...funny thing on a forum where differing opinions should be welcomed, if you watch the Woodward race again you will notice Borel's arms in full hold mold, how was he supposed to drag Rachel back without some sort of resistance? As for Rosier you know my stance on that already so there is no need to rehash it here, if you want to talk about it then pm a site where we can rehash it. But if you like his ride, you can have him in all your derby bets. I'll go with a more experienced rider.

Just for the sake of clarity, here's a question that should be easy enough to answer. Probably can answer it with one word, the last name of said jockey. Who rode a better race in the Derby last year, Rosier or Desormeaux?

[Wickel]

I don't believe either girl will get through this year undefeated.

As to the question at hand? Of course, a lot depends on the distance and race shape, but I'll go with Rachel 3, Zenyatta 2.

Well said, Fence. Corect me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Z nor R have taken on the likes of Careless Jewel. Plus the Apple Blossom will hopefully draw some other nice fillies and mares--Life Is Sweet maturing and Stardom Bound--my personal favorite--appears ready for her best effort.

Getting back to the question posed in this thread,I believe that with a representative pace, shape and distance that Zenyatta dominates Rachel.

[PaceAdvantage]

Given that I might be edited or censored, here's my reply...Don't act as if there wasn't a valid reason. I believe you repeated the same reply at least 4-5x across multiple threads to Dahoss. Some might label that spam.

[Kimsus]

Just for the sake of clarity, here's a question that should be easy enough to answer. Probably can answer it with one word, the last name of said jockey. Who rode a better race in the Derby last year, Rosier or Desormeaux?

You certainly like to answer questions with the questions...you know the answer to that but since Desourmeux was on a donkey, the ride by rosier had more impact to bettors and the owner. I think you would agree Desoumeaux's rides on Summer Bird during the yr were better than Rosier's. But you will probably answer with another question...

[Kimsus]

Don't act as if there wasn't a valid reason. I believe you repeated the same reply at least 4-5x across multiple threads to Dahoss. Some might label that spam.

PA, you have my word I will try to behave myself as long as I am here, I am truly sorry if I disrupted the other posters here. I will reserve 1 truthful comment to a thread as long as other posters do not continue to ask me similar questions on my opinions. Some have a hard tine with honest unfiltered answers and I guess that is why they like to keeping asking...

[Dahoss9698]

You certainly like to answer questions with the questions...you know the answer to that but since Desourmeux was on a donkey, the ride by rosier had more impact to bettors and the owner. I think you would agree Desoumeaux's rides on Summer Bird during the yr were better than Rosier's. But you will probably answer with another question...

Of course I know the answer. I doubt your agendas allow you to answer things honestly without some sort of twisting. This reply is no different. Rosier rode a far better race. The donkey Desormeaux rode came back to run second in the Travers. For you to say Rosier's ride had more impact shows a complete lack of understanding of trips and rides. Well, to be honest most things you say show this, but it's never more clear than right now.

I think it's debateable that Desormeaux rode better races. Summer Bird certainly improved, as the year went on. Hardly an unexpected thing for a quality horse that debuts in March to show a lot of improvement by August of that year. Aside from the ride in the Belmont, what was so special about Desormeaux's rides? In my opinion the horse got better as the year went on. The Summer Bird that ran in the Travers was a much better horse than ran in the Derby. I credit that to maturity and common improvement in a horse. Not rider.

[Kimsus]

Of course I know the answer. I doubt your agendas allow you to answer things honestly without some sort of twisting. This reply is no different. Rosier rode a far better race. The donkey Desormeaux rode came back to run second in the Travers. For you to say Rosier's ride had more impact shows a complete lack of understanding of trips and rides. Well, to be honest most things you say show this, but it's never more clear than right now.

I think it's debateable that Desormeaux rode better races. Summer Bird certainly improved, as the year went on. Hardly an unexpected thing for a quality horse that debuts in March to show a lot of improvement by August of that year. Aside from the ride in the Belmont, what was so special about Desormeaux's rides? In my opinion the horse got better as the year went on. The Summer Bird that ran in the Travers was a much better horse than ran in the Derby. I credit that to maturity and common improvement in a horse. Not rider.

I'm not going to argue with you, I get it you have no problem with Rosier's ride in the derby, personally I didn't think much of it then and I certainly still don't think much of it today. The only thing I will add new here is Tim Ice went out of his way to praise Kent D's rides on Summer Bird last yr, I'll leave it at that.

[Dahoss9698]

I'm not going to argue with you, I get it you have no problem with Rosier's ride in the derby, personally I didn't think much of it then and I certainly still don't think much of it today. The only thing I will add new here is Tim Ice went out of his way to praise Kent D's rides on Summer Bird last yr, I'll leave it at that.

The only thing I think of Rosier's ride is it wasn't bad. Desormeaux's was bad in the Derby. It's okay, you can admit it.

[badcompany]

In a match race, Rachel would get loose on the lead and win every time, regardless of the distance.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Zenyatta has a 100% win record when she fails to get the early lead. Missing out on getting the lead is not going to be a problem for her

[ExoticDancer]

Zenyatta has a perfect record ? Yes, but how many wins on dirt does she have vs. G1 winning males in her entire life ?

[Judge Gallivan]

Zenyatta has a perfect record ? Yes, but how many wins on dirt does she have vs. G1 winning males in her entire life ?

Zero.

You're really mixing up your posts. It's now Zenyatta and not Chickenyatta.