Winslow Homer off the trail

[WinterTriangle]

bone fracture, will be okay after surgery and rest, but off the trail for now.

Gosh, this makes me so sad. Those unbridled sons..........

I know porter and dutrow must be dissappointed, I know I am.

http://www.drf.com:80/news/article/110531.html

[bisket]

i just don't understand porter's infatuation with unbridled song colts. this happened to his horse last year at about the same point in time.

[gm10]

Ah here we go again. You'll see the dirt horses drop off one by one in the coming months due to injuries,

[WinterTriangle]

Piscitelli's got a bone bruise.

[FenceBored]

i just don't understand porter's infatuation with unbridled song colts. this happened to his horse last year at about the same point in time.

Not just colts, Eight Belles was an Unbridled's Song filly.

[Linny]

Rockport Harbor, Old Fashioned, Eight Belles, Winslow Homer... The UBS horses are great looking and develop early but they break.

[ExoticDancer]

But Winslow was not good enough to on the trail but very sad anyway.

[Fingal]

i just don't understand porter's infatuation with unbridled song colts. this happened to his horse last year at about the same point in time.

I don't understand the industry's infatuation with Unbridled Song. He has that Raise A Native/ Mr. Prospector/Fappiano line, but fragile is fragile. What good are bloodlnes if the horse doesn't last ? Anybody can have problems, but there are genetic tendencies. Isn't that what's good breeding's about, to eliminate them as much as possible ?

[joanied]

Did not surprise me one bit...I noticed that a lot of folks were high on Winslow Homer...but I decided to just wait and see how long it would take for him to have an injury...
I cannot understand why breeders are still using UBS so much...yes, he is an absolutley gorgeous, well conformed individual, with high power bloodlines...but as mentioned, his get just don't last...and the ones that do, IMO, must have a female line that are tough and hardy and that comes through in the resulting foal...UBS legacy is going to be about having horses quick to mature, and quick to breakdown.

It could be possible that if owners/trainers with his get just leave them alone until they are 3 yr olds, they might toughen up while fully developing and last longer on the track...that's my opinion on a possible answer to keeping his get in training and safe.

jeeze:faint:

[GlenninOhio]

Did not surprise me one bit...I noticed that a lot of folks were high on Winslow Homer...but I decided to just wait and see how long it would take for him to have an injury...
I cannot understand why breeders are still using UBS so much...yes, he is an absolutley gorgeous, well conformed individual, with high power bloodlines...but as mentioned, his get just don't last...and the ones that do, IMO, must have a female line that are tough and hardy and that comes through in the resulting foal...UBS legacy is going to be about having horses quick to mature, and quick to breakdown.

It could be possible that if owners/trainers with his get just leave them alone until they are 3 yr olds, they might toughen up while fully developing and last longer on the track...that's my opinion on a possible answer to keeping his get in training and safe.

jeeze:faint:

It get worse, Joanied, because the next step after the usual shortened racing career of these brilliant UBS progeny is ... the breeding shed!

So you can now step right up and breed to Old Fashioned or Rockport Harbor for $12,500. And you know when and if they announce Winslow is out of the game it will be accompanied by "the good news" that he's off to some stud farm to further "improve the breed".

As someone who has experienced more than his share of the heartbreak and tragedy associated with owning unsound horses, I'll never understand how many mare owners by their choice of stallion seem to be asking for problems like this. Maybe a big factor here is that the "breed to sell" business can still be very lucrative with the UBS line. I believe Mr. Porter has acquired most of his UBS progeny through auction.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ah here we go again. You'll see the dirt horses drop off one by one in the coming months due to injuries,I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the vast majority of horses on the Ky Derby trail will be racing most often over dirt.

That little statistic never factors into the equation for guys like gm10.

[joanied]

It get worse, Joanied, because the next step after the usual shortened racing career of these brilliant UBS progeny is ... the breeding shed!

So you can now step right up and breed to Old Fashioned or Rockport Harbor for $12,500. And you know when and if they announce Winslow is out of the game it will be accompanied by "the good news" that he's off to some stud farm to further "improve the breed".

As someone who has experienced more than his share of the heartbreak and tragedy associated with owning unsound horses, I'll never understand how many mare owners by their choice of stallion seem to be asking for problems like this. Maybe a big factor here is that the "breed to sell" business can still be very lucrative with the UBS line. I believe Mr. Porter has acquired most of his UBS progeny through auction.

Oh I know, GleninOhio...I said that in my post--
"I cannot understand why breeders are still using UBS so much...yes, he is an absolutley gorgeous, well conformed individual, with high power bloodlines...but as mentioned, his get just don't last..."

His get are popular selling at auction, and it makes you wonder why anyone would pay the high prices his offspring get at the sales...man, talk about taking a gamble...yeah, I want to:rolleyes: pay 1/2 million $$ for a horse that has a huge chance of breaking down before he earns even half the purchase price...jeeze!!
And to go to one of his sons, taking Old fshioned as an example...his career was cut way to short...yet, folks will discregard his fragile bones and those of just about every other UBS get and send mares to him...just makes ya want to pull your hair out:bang:

There are so many other beautifully bred, sound stallions out there...yup, really makes you wonder:faint:

[Spalding No!]

I'm sure this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the vast majority of horses on the Ky Derby trail will be racing most often over dirt.

That little statistic never factors into the equation for guys like gm10.

I guess Take Control and Sourdough Sam get a pass since nobody took them seriously as Derby contenders anyways.

[WinterTriangle]

Well, they just put Laus Deo out of training, 3 weeks rest and moving to Ocala, can't blame 'em for not staying in what has been a crummy winter, even here in AR, this year:
http://www.thedowneyprofile.com/
Laus Deo Moved to Ocala Farm
Laus Deo, winner of the Jan. 2 Count Fleet Stakes at Aqueduct, is out of active training at Palm Meadows and has been shipped to Vinery's farm in Ocala, Florida. Owned by Fox Hill Farms, Laus Deo has common ownership with Winslow Homer, who is off the Derby Trail (see story on Feb. 2 Racing News). Both are trained by Tony Dutrow.

According to the Fox Hill Farm website, Laus Deo is being given thirty days off.

After winning the Count Fleet in front-running fashion, the decision was made to give him a chance in the big leagues at Gulfstream Park, and he was shipped to Palm Meadows.

"We're not going to stay in New York," Dutrow said at the time. "Not that we think we got the best horse in the world, we just think we're giving the horse a better chance coming down this way. You know first hand how rough December was, and how it looks like January and February are going to be. We're giving the horse a chance to come down here and give him his opportunity."

After he arrived at Palm Meadows, Laus Deo breezed five furlongs on a track rated good in 1:03.40 (3/5) on Jan. 18. No subsequent workouts were recorded.

[the Bid]

Laus Deo has respiratory surgery. It's not a "soundness" issue. As for WH, look at his career to date and project the future, after all that's what handicappers do every day. He broke his maiden in an "off the turfer" at Saratoga quite early in the meet, yet somehow vanished and was noplace to be seen for the Hopeful or the Futurity the Champagne. That's odd considering his maiden win was at 7f. You'd think a capable horse that won at 7f would have an experience edge in the 6 1/2f Hopeful or the 7f Futurity.
Instead he turns up in late November, not in the Remsen or the KY Jockey Club but in an allowance at Philly Park. Hmmm.... OK, maybe he had "shins" or something but really? Philly???
He comes back against the best horses he's ever faced - by far - on a track that is often scraped for "big races" and wins and exits with a fracture. He's by UBS, should we be surprised? No. I'm mad at myself for even including him on by Derby Dozen watchlist.

[joanied]

I've gotten to the point that I just about ignore any of the UBS horses...have any of them lasted very long? That'd be a interesting research project.

[Linny]

Ubridled Danger has run 22 times since Jan 1 2009. He's 7 now and rarely wins but gets alot of checks.

[joanied]

Ubridled Danger has run 22 times since Jan 1 2009. He's 7 now and rarely wins but gets alot of checks.

Just looked him up...lifetime 66 starts...holytoledo...and if ya check his pedigree, there is only one horse in there that would pass along soundness...Roundtable (at least close up)...other wise, besides UBS he also has Mr. P....
anyway, that makes one:)

[Linny]

Exception proves the rule ;)

[Steve R]

I guess perception trumps reality once again. According to BRIS stats, runners by Unbridled's Song have a higher number of average years raced AND a higher number of average starts per year than runners by top 10 sires Giant's Causeway. Street Cry and Tiznow. The average number of lifetime starts for the four sires are:

Street Cry, 9.3
Giant's Causeway, 9.4
Tiznow, 10.1
Unbridled's Song, 10.3

And of the four, Unbridled's Song has the co-highest percentage of starters from foals and by far the highest percentage of winners from foals.

[GlenninOhio]

I guess perception trumps reality once again. According to BRIS stats, runners by Unbridled's Song have a higher number of average years raced AND a higher number of average starts per year than runners by top 10 sires Giant's Causeway. Street Cry and Tiznow. The average number of lifetime starts for the four sires are:

Street Cry, 9.3
Giant's Causeway, 9.4
Tiznow, 10.1
Unbridled's Song, 10.3

And of the four, Unbridled's Song has the co-highest percentage of starters from foals and by far the highest percentage of winners from foals.

Unbridled's Song has been at stud since 1997, quite a bit longer than the others on your list. First year at stud for the others:

Street Cry 2003
Giant's Causeway 2001
Tiznow 2002

So Street Cry's first two year olds went to race in 2006 (foaled in 2004), which means that through 2009 his oldest progeny were 5 years old, with an average age of somewhere between 3 and 4.

My point is that comparing progeny lifetime starts is certainly way biased in Unbridled Song's favor compared to Street Cry, whose progeny are quite young on average. Somewhat less so for the others, but still quite a bias in my opinion.

[joanied]

Unbridled's Song has been at stud since 1997, quite a bit longer than the others on your list. First year at stud for the others:

Street Cry 2003
Giant's Causeway 2001
Tiznow 2002

So Street Cry's first two year olds went to race in 2006 (foaled in 2004), which means that through 2009 his oldest progeny were 5 years old, with an average age of somewhere between 3 and 4.

My point is that comparing progeny lifetime starts is certainly way biased in Unbridled Song's favor compared to Street Cry, whose progeny are quite young on average. Somewhat less so for the others, but still quite a bias in my opinion.

I agree with that....

but also, does his (UBS) number of starters and number of starts actually tell us how many break down? I don't think so...I could be wrong.

[TJDave]

Gotta love the name, though.

A tribute to the artist or perhaps a football/Simpsons enthusiast?

[Steve R]

Unbridled's Song has been at stud since 1997, quite a bit longer than the others on your list. First year at stud for the others:

Street Cry 2003
Giant's Causeway 2001
Tiznow 2002

So Street Cry's first two year olds went to race in 2006 (foaled in 2004), which means that through 2009 his oldest progeny were 5 years old, with an average age of somewhere between 3 and 4.

My point is that comparing progeny lifetime starts is certainly way biased in Unbridled Song's favor compared to Street Cry, whose progeny are quite young on average. Somewhat less so for the others, but still quite a bias in my opinion.
The average number of years raced for all of these sires varies from 2.06 to 2.32. Not much difference. Since Street Cry's oldest are now six, what possible reason is there to believe that racing longevity will increase significantly with more crops? In fact, if you exclude two-year-olds and three-year-olds and look only at the sires' data for runners four or older through 2009, Unbridled's Song is third in percentage of starters from foals and first in percentage of winners from foals. Those data are not going to change much either. And if you consider their runners that won graded stakes as older horses, Unbridled's Song trails only Giant's Causeway in the percentage of such winners.

On balance, there is no convincing evidence that runners by Unbridled's Song are less durable or have shorter racing careers than runners by many other top class sires. Extraordinary unsoundness ascribed to Unbridled's Song is a myth and is based entirely on anecdotal examples of some high profile runners.

[joanied]

The average number of years raced for all of these sires varies from 2.06 to 2.32. Not much difference. Since Street Cry's oldest are now six, what possible reason is there to believe that racing longevity will increase significantly with more crops? In fact, if you exclude two-year-olds and three-year-olds and look only at the sires' data for runners four or older through 2009, Unbridled's Song is third in percentage of starters from foals and first in percentage of winners from foals. Those data are not going to change much either. And if you consider their runners that won graded stakes as older horses, Unbridled's Song trails only Giant's Causeway in the percentage of such winners.

On balance, there is no convincing evidence that runners by Unbridled's Song are less durable or have shorter racing careers than runners by many other top class sires.and is Extraordinary unsoundness ascribed to Unbridled's Song is a myth based entirely on anecdotal examples of some high profile runners.

That is very interesting.

[GlenninOhio]

Since Street Cry's oldest are now six, what possible reason is there to believe that racing longevity will increase significantly with more crops?

On balance, there is no convincing evidence that runners by Unbridled's Song are less durable or have shorter racing careers than runners by many other top class sires. Extraordinary unsoundness ascribed to Unbridled's Song is a myth and is based entirely on anecdotal examples of some high profile runners.

First, in the study you quoted Street Cry's oldest were not 6 but 5, and that's assuming it was up to date thorugh 2009. I'm not suggesting racing longevity will improve with more crops, but the fact is that the AVERAGE AGE of Street Cry's progeny is between 3 and 4 and this will not "normalize" for a few more years. And this puts him as a "newer" stallion at a clear disadvantage to UBS in a lifetime starts comparison.

As for your concluding sentence, I have to admire the strength of your convictions but I'd strongly suggest that they are based as much on "gut feel" as those who feel just the opposite.

[castaway01]

The average number of years raced for all of these sires varies from 2.06 to 2.32. Not much difference. Since Street Cry's oldest are now six, what possible reason is there to believe that racing longevity will increase significantly with more crops? In fact, if you exclude two-year-olds and three-year-olds and look only at the sires' data for runners four or older through 2009, Unbridled's Song is third in percentage of starters from foals and first in percentage of winners from foals. Those data are not going to change much either. And if you consider their runners that won graded stakes as older horses, Unbridled's Song trails only Giant's Causeway in the percentage of such winners.

On balance, there is no convincing evidence that runners by Unbridled's Song are less durable or have shorter racing careers than runners by many other top class sires. Extraordinary unsoundness ascribed to Unbridled's Song is a myth and is based entirely on anecdotal examples of some high profile runners.

So Steve, you're saying if you rule out all the Unbridled's Song 2-year-olds and 3-year-olds that have broken down, then he doesn't have many offspring that break down? Brilliant! You must own breeding rights to that horribly unsound horse because you're the one person in racing who ignores Eight Belles, Dunkirk, Old Fashioned, and Winslow Homer, just in very recent times. Ridiculous.

[the Bid]

Gotta love the name, though.

A tribute to the artist or perhaps a football/Simpsons enthusiast?


Winslow Homer was a great artist of the 19th century. One of his most famous paintings was called "Eight Bells." He did a lovely drawing of racing fans at Saratoga.
Some of his work can be seen here. http://www.winslow-homer.com/

Many scenes of the sea and scenes of average folks at work and play.