Waldrop Gets It: Now What?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid=15&year=2010&month=1&day=31

[Grits]

I agree, he's learned quite a bit by spending two days with dedicated lovers of the game--the horseplayers--the individuals who day in day out, fuel the game. Now, let's see what, and how, he can go about putting to good use what he has learned from those that he has spoken with. A daunting task, but it need start with only one, and move forwardly.

[DeanT]

Credit where credit is due!

Monday, February 1, 2010

He is Correct! (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/02/he-is-correct.html)

Alex Waldrop is correct. 100% correct.

In his new column he relays what he heard this past weekend at the NHC Championship (congrats Brian! (http://www.drf.com/news/article/110494.html)) from horseplayers. (http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid=15&year=2010&month=1&day=31)

- Their message to tracks: Price matters. According to one very knowledgeable race and sports book operator I spoke with in Vegas, they are seeing a steady migration of players from horse racing to sports betting and other gaming. Why? Lower takeout on casino games and sports betting are a big part of the reason.

- Their Safety and integrity matter. If you think the way you treat your horse is a private matter between you and your vet, think again

- Their message to regulators: Be tough but fair in regulating the game. And be consistent.

We at HANA have surveyed horseplayers, written hundreds of blog pieces, attended dozens of meetings. We have conveyed this now for some time.

It is not a me versus you debate, it is an us debate.

We don't want lower takeout because we are greedy - we want lower takeout so we can bet more and encourage others to bet more by saying to new people "you have a shot to beat the races, so come join us".

We don't want safety concerns looked at because we really like to see tracks be regulated. We want safety and integrity because we feel with it we will have a better sport, and if we have a better sport, we can grow.

We don't want drug policy because we are zealots. We want a consistent drug policy because we love horses and want them treated well. We want cheaters to be charged because they hurt the game. We don't want honest horsemen charged and thrown out for making a minor mistake. We want a good policy with teeth to grow the sport of horse racing, for bettors and horse owners. Heck, almost 20% of HANA are horse owners.

Very well done regardless Alex. You summed it up pretty well.

[NJ Stinks]

We don't want lower takeout because we are greedy - we want lower takeout so we can bet more and encourage others to bet more by saying to new people "you have a shot to beat the races, so come join us".



Bingo. I've been playing for over 40 years so obviously I love the game. But I haven't tried to encourage others to play in at least 25 years. If I am fond of somebody - a niece, nephew, friend, etc. - I'm not going to encourage any gambling venture with an 20% (average) takeout. I've got to be able to sleep at night.

[Black Ruby]

Well, this certainly illustrates the problem. This guy came from CDI, he's been in charge of the NTRA for a few years now, the NTRA has done surveys, and he's just now learning these things? Couldn't you hear this stuff if you spent 5 minutes in the paddock or among the railbirds? Where's he been and what's he been doing that these things are news to him? Odds are that this is all that'll happen from this, he's done the lip service, might do it another time or two, but nothing will change.

[DeanT]

Black,

Completely understand your point.

But I think having people like Waldrop at least talk about these issues is a good thing. It was only a few short years ago that a story was written in a mag from a horseplayer. He said he was speaking to a track exec and said to him "how about your exacta takeout" and the track exec replied "yes, they won't let us raise it!!!!". I think we have come a long way the last several years.

JMO.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Bingo. I've been playing for over 40 years so obviously I love the game. But I haven't tried to encourage others to play in at least 25 years. If I am fond of somebody - a niece, nephew, friend, etc. - I'm not going to encourage any gambling venture with an 20% (average) takeout. I've got to be able to sleep at night.
I'm the same way. I used to introduce quite a few players to the game, but haven't in the last 18 years because of the high takeouts. I'm no crack dealer.
If you could get newbies to go right to rebates, it would be different, but there is still a learning curve (horse race betting can't be taught overnight) and really no carrot sticks (visible winners) to convince others to play.
Right now, I'm focusing on telling existing horse players to gamble where they get the best bang for their buck.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Black,

Completely understand your point.

But I think having people like Waldrop at least talk about these issues is a good thing. It was only a few short years ago that a story was written in a mag from a horseplayer. He said he was speaking to a track exec and said to him "how about your exacta takeout" and the track exec replied "yes, they won't let us raise it!!!!". I think we have come a long way the last several years.

JMO.
I can't wait for the day when a racing exec says, "we need to make more money, lets have a sale and drop takeout."

[NJ Stinks]

Right now, I'm focusing on telling existing horse players to gamble where they get the best bang for their buck.

That is a noble mission. :ThmbUp:

I live about 15 miles from Philadelphia Park and have for many years. Nothing makes me madder than to see fellow horseplayers make about 25% of their Philly Park bets on trifectas and superfectas day after day. The takeout is 30% on these bets. (I believe the trifecta takeout at Philly Park was 31% at one time - trifecta bets have been around a lot longer than supers. And, by the way, Penn National has a 31% takeout on trifectas and supers today.)

How much willpower does it take today to eliminate trifectas and supers at Philly Park from your wagering menu? It's not like you can't make these bets elsewhere with simulcasting.

So year after year Pennsylvania gets away with sticking it to horseplayers who bet voluntarily into these pools.

Sometimes you really do get what you deserve.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It is partly noble, but a lot to with getting Horseplayersbet.com to grow :)

[DeanT]

NJ,

I think people have been speaking at Philly - they just refuse to do anything about it. With slots cash coming in, it seems the response is "who cares".

What business says "who cares" to these numbers:
Live handle at track drops 26.3 percent for April 2007 compared to April 2006

BENSALEM, Pa., June 4 /PRNewswire/ -- The Pennsylvania Thoroughbred Horsemen's Association released figures today showing a 26.3 percent decline in live horserace betting at Philadelphia Park for the month of April, the largest monthly decline since slot machines were introduced at Philadelphia Park in December 2006. Simulcast betting by Philadelphia Park patrons also declined by 18.1 percent for the month compared to April 2006.


It is down about another 20% or so there since.

But revenues are through the roof as slots keep turning.

If Philly actually cares about racing they would work on dropping statewide takes to a 19% blended, instead of about 25% blended.

[Black Ruby]

Dean, I agree that having them discuss these things is good. But Waldrop had a poll through the NTRA within the last 18-24 months, and I added commentary to my poll responses that raised a number of these points. I'm sure other racing fans voiced the same concerns/complaints about racing. Alex replied to me with a nice note. His article about the NHC makes it sound like this was a sudden realization to him. So that's why I'm skeptical that anything he heard at the NHC will lead to any changes, or even the attempt at any changes. Maybe he'd like to make changes but doesn't have the clout. Maybe, like the old Saturday Night Live skit, he attended the school of diplomacy where the only thing they learned was to say "please pass the sweet and sour shrimp". Those that do have the clout apparently have no interest in making the changes.

[DeanT]

Agreed. And I do not know what is in his head about this.

I am looking at anyone inside the business talking about take as a positive, whether they can help or not in a real way. I like that the narrative has changed a little bit.

Long ago in the NFL the small market teams screamed about stuff for a long time, but sooner or later the large market teams came aboard, realizing that if the product was not competitive it would hurt the game of football, and their pocketbooks.

We have some people talking about low take now:

Nick Nicholson
Peter Berube
Alex Waldrop
Illinois Racing
Harness Racing in general
Steve Zorn (constantly posts pieces and comments on the HANA blog about trying a 12% experiment across racing)

Those are some folks who do not control racing per se, but maybe over time they will influence the NYRA's/New York State, Cali racing, Bob Evans/Tracknet and so on that the old way is not helping us, but hurting us.

I am not holding my breath, but it gives a glimmer of hope.

PS: Good on ya for getting involved like that! We all need to, imo.

[rrbauer]

There's NIcholson and Berube: Two guys who are doing something about the issues. All the others simply engage in conversation. Waldrop is paid by the racetracks so when push comes to shove, guess where he's going to line up? His outfit has had some kind of Players group for sometime. What has he learned from talking to them? You're telling me that he has to go to some event in Las Vegas to find out what's on horseplayers' minds? If you honestly believe that, then you're been conned.

I think that his Blog piece is "fluff". He will do exactly what he's been doing for horseplayers: NOTHING.

[NJ Stinks]

I remember when Barry Schwartz, NYRA president and chief executive officer, resigned about 5 years ago. The guy was a horseowner too but the big thing was that he was a long-time horseplayer too. Schwartz was by far my favorite racing executive although I am a big fan of Nick Nicholson at Keeneland too. But, as you may recall, Spitzer went after NYRA for tellers involved in money laundering and Schwartz resigned.

Anyway, I don't remember a firestorm of protests by horseplayers when Schwartz left NYRA. (Maybe there was here - I wasn't a member then.) In fact, I think it was more like: Barry let this federal wrap envelop NYRA under his watch. Good riddance, Barry.

Meanwhile, listen to what the man said in a Blood-Horse article in 2003:
______________________________________________
NYRA chairman Barry Schwartz said he wants to reduce the takeout on pick six bets on non-carryover days from 20% to 15% as a way to build pools. Schwartz wants the change, the second he has pushed through the past couple years, in place by April 1.

In the face of more and more competition for the gambling dollar, Schwartz has been increasingly vocal in his demands that NYRA give back more in winnings to bettors as a way to attract more betting. "It's a terrific bet that really gets terrific when there's a carryover," Schwartz said.

Schwartz said bettors have gotten more than $90 million returned to them since conventional takeout was lowered two years ago. "But there are people who think if we didn't do that, we'd have the money. They don't get it," Schwartz said. Of his latest takeout plan, he said: "Even the OTB (corporations), if they had any brains, can't complain about this one."

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/20774/nyra-pick-six-takeout-plan-already-stirring-pot
_________________________________________



In fact, Schwartz was instrumental in lowering NYRA takeout on win, place, and show and the takeout on exactas/DD's in 2002. The guy was the best thing since sliced bread! Checkout this excerpt from an Andy Beyer article in 2003:


__________________________________________________ __
Schwartz understands that takeout -- the percentage that the track extracts from every gambling dollar -- is the most important issue affecting players. Lower takeout puts more money in their pockets and keeps them in action; very low takeout might lure back players who have left the tracks to gamble with offshore operations that give them rebates. Last year Schwartz pushed through a reduction in win, place and show takeout to 14 percent -- lowest in the nation -- and trimmed exactas from 20 to 17.5 percent. He wanted to get lower rates this year, but was stymied by opposition from the state's politically powerful Off-Track Betting operations. "I would love to see the win-place-show takeout around 10 percent," Schwartz said. "I think it would be a huge, huge shot in the arm for the sport."

http://www.majorwager.com/forums/race-track/126055-good-article-nyras-barry-schwartz.html
____________________________________

I may not be the best handicapper around but I can recognize rare talent when I see it in humans. Barry, you may be gone but you are definitely not forgotten. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:



__________________________________________________ __

[rrbauer]

NJ: I agree on your assessment of Schwartz's ideas. You don't have to be very smart to do a graph with takeout on one axis and handle on the other and predict the plane of the line. And, the most amazing thing to me is that almost all the fervor for growing handle comes from the players' camp. And, the only reason that I can think of for that is that we players are just stupid; because the people in charge "know" that nothing can grow handle and consequently they direct their energies elsewhere.

[rwwupl]

I do not think we need to be enlightened on what horseplayers think.

It is good that Alex has been enlightened, after all this time.

What we want to know is what will be done and by whom and when before we all are layed to rest.

Cheer leading will not cut it. ;)

[andymays]

I do not think we need to be enlightened on what horseplayers think.

It is good that Alex has been enlightened, after all this time.

What we want to know is what will be done and by whom and when before we all are layed to rest.

Cheer leading will not cut it. ;)


I was thinking the same thing.