Race of Titans Invitational

[Norm]

While we are still in the mode of creating nostalgic but improbable races, here is one from the days of iron horses that old timers and students of racing history will appreciate.

Conditions
The Race of Titans Invitational. 1-1/4M at old Sheepshead Bay Race Track. Equal weights, 124 lbs. Walk-up start. Purse $5,000, winner take all. Each entrant is a hypothetical 3 year old at the peak of his career. Three entrants are invited to run.

Man O War
Needs no introduction, he was "the mostest horse". Only lost one when, at a walk-up start, the starter dropped the flag while he was going the opposite way. He made up all the lost ground and finished a fast closing second (at age 2.)

Sysonby
Undefeated but for once when he had been drugged by a betting cartel that loaded him with tranquilizers. He still finished third.

Colin
He needs no excuses, he was never beaten. He set track records. Grandson of the great Domino, he beat Man O War's sire Fair Play at age 2 and again at age 3.

My choice ?? Man O War by a narrow margin over Sysonby, but I'm not really so sure that Colin couldn't have beaten both of them.


http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL269/8161730/21918803/382072828.jpg

[tzipi]

Man O War by 10 at the 1/8th pole then gets puts under wraps to stride home IMO.

[Norm]

Man O War by 10 at the 1/8th pole then gets puts under wraps to stride home IMO.
It's true that Man O War usually won under wraps. The only time in his career that he was called upon to exert himself, the Dwyer of 1920, the good race horse John P Grier pushed him to world record time in which he showed us what he could do under pressure. Here's a contemporary news account -

“At no time in the race up to the final fifty yards did daylight ever show between the two horses. The great thrill came from the fact that Man o’ War was finally put to a real test against a three-year-old which in any other year would be a champion, and was forced to do his best over a greater part of the distance to gain the decision.One of them had to crack, After they entered the stretch still lapped on, the unbelievable happened. It was John P. Grier who began to inch away, getting his head in front at the three-sixteenths pole. For just a second there loomed the possibility of the horse of the century meeting defeat. A touch of the whip, though, and Man o’ War surged forward; not quite done, John P. Grier found another gear, too, but within strides, it was over, and Man o’ War, with a two length victory, asserted his claim to the title of the best horse in the country.

The race was scorchingly fast: the first quarter in :23 2/5, the half in :46, six furlongs in 1:09 3/5, it in itself a record, leading to Man o’ War running the mile and an eighth in new world record time - 1:49 1/5."

[tzipi]

It's true that Man O War usually won under wraps. The only time in his career that he was called upon to exert himself, the Dwyer of 1920, the good race horse John P Grier pushed him to world record time in which he showed us what he could do under pressure. Here's a contemporary news account

Well Man O War was called upon for exertion against Upset but could not get there. There are stories he was turned around and spotted Upset huge lengths. But witnesses say it wasn't so. He WAS turned a bit and got off slow but even the charts showed him close enough during the race,not 20 lengths behind on the turn,etc. Upset was just on that day and MOW couldn't get to him.
I remember stories of guys telling me hey Man O War could've started in the parking lot and beat anyone! He could give head starts to anyone! But they couldn't answer the Sanford race. Every horse has slow starts in their careers,nothing new but sometimes horses are just on their game that day as Upset was. That's racing :)

[tzipi]

This is not "Titans of all time" is it?

[Norm]

This is not "Titans of all time" is it?
It is extremely difficult to compare racehorses from different eras. The racing strips are vastly different. The nature of the game is different ( the racing season was shorter, these old guys could run in championship races on 4 days rest and win both in record time.) Even the nature of the horses is different. My opinion is that the old horses were made of tougher stuff. In a hypothetical race of old vs. modern, would you feel confident bring those old guys forward in time to race on a modern track against modern "champions"? (I would.) Or, what modern champion would you take back to Sheepshead Bay to face-off against these old iron horses? I might consider taking Dr. Fager back, he was tough and raced somewhat like they did, he might have given them the race of their lives. I can't think of many other modern horses I would take back to race under those hard-knocking conditions. Citation could have done it, but he was a "transitional" horse, half-way between old and modern.

[tucker6]

It is extremely difficult to compare racehorses from different eras. The racing strips are vastly different. The nature of the game is different ( the racing season was shorter, these old guys could run in championship races on 4 days rest and win both in record time.) Even the nature of the horses is different. My opinion is that the old horses were made of tougher stuff. In a hypothetical race of old vs. modern, would you feel confident bring those old guys forward in time to race on a modern track against modern "champions"? (I would.) Or, what modern champion would you take back to Sheepshead Bay to face-off against these old iron horses? I might consider taking Dr. Fager back, he was tough and raced somewhat like they did, he might have given them the race of their lives. I can't think of many other modern horses I would take back to race under those hard-knocking conditions. Citation could have done it, but he was a "transitional" horse, half-way between old and modern.
How would MoW fare against fuller fields like today on four days rest? Methinks you're not giving enough credit to the modern horse. MoW would get his licks in, but would have to grind his way around the track like everyone else. Hell, the last two years of the KD had almost as many horses in it as MoW saw his entire career. So, let's not get carried away by claiming MoW was under wraps most races when he was usually facing only one or two horses. He was a great horse, so he should have been under wraps against field sizes like that. Again, I'm not trying to disparage MoW, but let's not get carried away is all I'm saying.

[tzipi]

It is extremely difficult to compare racehorses from different eras. The racing strips are vastly different. The nature of the game is different ( the racing season was shorter, these old guys could run in championship races on 4 days rest and win both in record time.) Even the nature of the horses is different. My opinion is that the old horses were made of tougher stuff. In a hypothetical race of old vs. modern, would you feel confident bring those old guys forward in time to race on a modern track against modern "champions"? (I would.) Or, what modern champion would you take back to Sheepshead Bay to face-off against these old iron horses? I might consider taking Dr. Fager back, he was tough and raced somewhat like they did, he might have given them the race of their lives. I can't think of many other modern horses I would take back to race under those hard-knocking conditions. Citation could have done it, but he was a "transitional" horse, half-way between old and modern.


I'll feel comfortable taking a healthy Secretariat ANYWHERE against ANYONE on dirt or turf.

[DJofSD]

Imagine what cloing could do for T'bred racing.

[mountainman]

I'll feel comfortable taking a healthy Secretariat ANYWHERE against ANYONE on dirt or turf.

Unless, of course, Angle Light, Onion or Prove Out takes part.

[tzipi]

Unless, of course, Angle Light, Onion or Prove Out takes part.

Ha! Oh man. So this race is automatically over if Upset is entered and for Sysonby fans, the race is over if Artful is entered? :lol: Gotta learn racing Mountain.
So if we enter Artful and Upset,and Onion. The race will finish:
Colin
Upset
Artful
Onion
and then Sysonby,Secretariat and Man O War battling for low spots? :lol:

We get it from your threads Mountain. Secrertariat had no speed,not even in the Belmont and he would have trouble winning a race again like this if Onion or prove Out was entered. Oook

[mountainman]

I love that you included Colin, a great horse that rarely enters into conversations like this. Having raced so long ago and built a perfect record, Colin adds a definite mystique to any mythical race. I once saw a photo of him being galloped by a black man wearing a derby hat. The horse's aura and the rider's indescribable expression sent chills down my spine.

[mountainman]

Ha! Oh man. So this race is automatically over if Upset is entered and for Sysonby fans, the race is over if Artful is entered? :lol: Gotta learn racing Mountain.
So if we enter Artful and Upset,and Onion. The race will finish:
Colin
Upset
Artful
Onion
and then Sysonby,Secretariat and Man O War battling for low spots? :lol:

We get it from your threads Mountain. Secrertariat had no speed,not even in the Belmont and he would have trouble winning a race again like this if Onion or prove Out was entered. Oook

Again, you are missing my point. Secretariat was FAR from invincible.

[tucker6]

Again, you are missing my point. Secretariat was FAR from invincible.
If your life depended on it, and you could choose the horse who could run 10 panels on his/her very best day and save your life, who you gonna pick??

Try to answer the question and why.

Tom

[tzipi]

Again, you are missing my point. Secretariat was FAR from invincible.

Again you're missing the point. That makes no sense to bring up horses who beaten a horse but then don't say a word about horses who beat the others.

You bring up in other threads about Dr. Fager whipping a field with Slew,Bid,Affirmed,etc but last time I checked he was FAAARR from invincible.

You have also said Secretariat was not a speed horse(for example you said his Belmont was no speed and slow) and could'nt keep up with Dr Fager in a race but honestly Sec could run his fractions and probably faster and father and still win the races.

Follow me wherever and keep knocking Secretariat for having no speed and how Dr Fager would whip Slew,Bid,etc even with weight poured on him and how Secretariat would lose this race or how fans should be scared if Onion was entered against him again :D .

[mountainman]

If your life depended on it, and you could choose the horse who could run 10 panels on his/her very best day and save your life, who you gonna pick??

Try to answer the question and why.

Tom

No horse is invincible. History shows us that. Run 10 all-time titans together 10 times and you might get 3 or 4 different winners, depending on pace, post position, surface quirks, and tactics. Not to mention trips. Hell, jurisdiction and drug testing could even come into play. Would you assume that these horses all ran clean? I wouldn't. Racing is a situational game that doesn't lend itself to absolutes. For my money, however,-and this is JUST opinion-Spectacular Bid and Secretariat stand a little above.

[tzipi]

No horse is invincible. History shows us that. Run 10 all-time titans together 10 times and you might get 3 or 4 different winners, depending on pace, post position, surface quirks, and tactics. Racing is a situational game that doesn't lend itself to absolutes. For my money, however,-and this is JUST opinion-Spectacular Bid and Secretariat stand a little above.

Of course, you're right, racing comes down to alot of things, but to get on just him about Angle Light and Onion? cmon.

[mountainman]

Someone said their opinion and I said yeah I'd be comfortable taking Secretariat anywhere against anyone on turf or dirt. You chime into the convo with well watch out if ANGLE LIGHT or ONION,etc are there. Yeah ookkk. I'll watch out :rolleyes:
Of course, you're right, racing comes down to alot of things, but to get on just him about Angle Light and Onion? cmon.

I'm a huge Secretariat fan, but his aura of invincibility is somewhat unjustified.
Losing to the mediocre likes of Prove Out , Onion and Angle Light well establishes that.

[tzipi]

I'm a huge Secretariat fan, but his aura of invincibility is somewhat unjustified.
Losing to the mediocre likes of Prove Out , Onion and Angle Light well establishes that.

I know from reading about it that Secretariat was sick the morning of the Whitney or the Woodward and Lucien did not want to run him and was mad the rest of his life that he did because he never would've lost he said. So what about Man O War losing to Upset. Does that taint him?

[andtheyreoff]

The current odds:

1. Man O' War- 4/5
2. Sysonby- 6/1
3. Colin- 5/2

[mountainman]

I know from reading about it that Secretariat was sick the morning of the Whitney or the Woodward and Lucien did not want to run him and was mad the rest of his life that he did because he never would've lost he said. So what about Man O War losing to Upset. Does that taint him?

Secretariat lost five times, Man O' War just once. However, for the sake of argument, have you read the chart on Man O' War's loss? His trip was eventful to say the least.
And to take a hypothetical debate even further into the realm of conjecture, rumors ran rampant that Man O' War was stiffed that day. His trainer, Louis Feustel, stated decades later (and reluctantly in an interview that was little publicized) that Loftus had admitted holding the horse.

By the way, thanks much for the discussion. The topic is fun and I enjoy the back and forth.

[mountainman]

The current odds:

1. Man O' War- 4/5
2. Sysonby- 6/1
3. Colin- 5/2

Man O' War 3/5
Colin..........9/5
Sysonby.....7/2

My line reflects a 17% takeout and is intended to predict actual odds, not outcome.

[tzipi]

Secretariat lost five times, Man O' War just once. However, for the sake of argument, have you read the chart on Man O' War's loss? His trip was eventful to say the least.
And to take a hypothetical debate even further into the realm of conjecture, rumors ran rampant that Man O' War was stiffed that day. His trainer, Louis Feustel, stated decades later (and reluctantly in an interview that was little publicized) that Loftus had admitted holding the horse.

By the way, thanks much for the discussion. The topic is fun and I enjoy the back and forth.

Looking at the charts and reading about what witnesses said he was off a bit slow turned a bit sideways. He got off 5th in a field of 7,not last. He was 3rd at the top of the stretch. It was just Upsets day. As I wrote in a post earlier. I remember all the stories about Man O War and how he could spot a field a head start or start from the parking lot and still win! Just old fun storie I guess. Well he wasn't 20+ lengths back at this race. Was just Upsets day I think.

[tzipi]

Secretariat lost five times, Man O' War just once

Also Secretariat faced full fields. Man O War faced just an average of 2 other horses each race in his last 10.
What if Secretariat only had to face 2 other opponents every race? Two different times on racing.

[mountainman]

Also Secretariat faced full fields. Man O War faced just an average of 2 other horses each race in his last 10.
What if Secretariat only had to face 2 other opponents every race? Two different times on racing.

Secretariat failed to fire just too many times to be the slam dunk some see him as for the mythical title 'greatest of all time.' At his utter best? MAYBE. But that caveat introduces a whole other aspect to the debate.

[tzipi]

Secretariat failed to fire just too many times to be the slam dunk some see him as for the mythical title 'greatest of all time.' At his utter best? MAYBE. But that caveat introduces a whole other aspect to the debate.

Yeah I agree Mountain he didn't go undefeated and no horse is a slam dunk to win on command BUT to say "at his utter best maybe"? At his utter best was the Belmont Stakes and NO ONE in history beats him that day I think. That was a pretty scary "best day" I think.

Like on his best day Man O War whips this field IMO.

[bisket]

It is extremely difficult to compare racehorses from different eras. The racing strips are vastly different. The nature of the game is different ( the racing season was shorter, these old guys could run in championship races on 4 days rest and win both in record time.) Even the nature of the horses is different. My opinion is that the old horses were made of tougher stuff. In a hypothetical race of old vs. modern, would you feel confident bring those old guys forward in time to race on a modern track against modern "champions"? (I would.) Or, what modern champion would you take back to Sheepshead Bay to face-off against these old iron horses? I might consider taking Dr. Fager back, he was tough and raced somewhat like they did, he might have given them the race of their lives. I can't think of many other modern horses I would take back to race under those hard-knocking conditions. Citation could have done it, but he was a "transitional" horse, half-way between old and modern.
if i could choose 3 to go back in time i'd go for the geldings. kelso, forego, and john henry. kelso and forego in particular though. henry was a little fella.

[nijinski]

All three were great stars , but MOW and Colin seem a class higher and it's
tough to separate the two.

Have to love Sysonby also though , he was not a big beauty but had heart and versatility , winning from five and a half furlongs , to two and a quarter miles .
I read it was his groom who admitted drugging him to cash bets. :eek:
Poor horse suffered from a liver ailment and died very young.

[Norm]

I love that you included Colin, a great horse that rarely enters into conversations like this. Having raced so long ago and built a perfect record, Colin adds a definite mystique to any mythical race. I once saw a photo of him being galloped by a black man wearing a derby hat. The horse's aura and the rider's indescribable expression sent chills down my spine.
It amazes me that Colin does not receive more acclaim for his accomplishments. His owner was harsh with him, often racing him sick or hurting. Never-the-less, his record was stellar. Here's an old account -

o Broke his maiden against 23 rivals at Belmont Park on May 29, 1907.

o National Stallion Stakes (racing just three days later, he broke the track record)

o Eclipse Stakes (raced four days later with bucked shins and carrying 125 pounds in the pouring rain)

o Great Trial Stakes (given 24 days rest, carrying 129 pounds, without extending himself)

o Brighton Junior Stakes (beginning to be talked of as the "best two-year-old in history. His swollen hock was beginning to recede, but he began coughing.)

o Saratoga Special Stakes (still coughing, and not looking well, but not about to stop Colin beating the previously unbeaten Uncle.

o Grand Union Hotel Stakes (four days later, without exertion and without a cough.

o Futurity Stakes (50,000 showed up at Sheepshead Bay to watch. Colin was "the absolute master of the situation," in stakes-record time of 1:11⅕ for the straight six furlongs.)

o Flatbush Stakes (raced one week later, winning by three lengths)

o "The Thoroughbred Record" exclaimed, "The more one sees of him, the more firm is the conviction that he is the best horse ever bred in America or ever raced here.")

o Matron Stakes (Colt's Division, beating Fair Play)

o Champagne Stakes (by six lengths. "The Thoroughbred Record" was overcome by his dominance. He also established a new American record of 1:23 for the distance on a straightaway.)

o Withers Stakes - Joe Notter rode him to victory.

o Belmont Stakes. (Not timed because of heavy rain; Colin ran lame in the fog over the objections of Rowe, and thanks to the keeness of Keene. Again, he beat a very game Fair Play.)

o Tidal Stakes

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL269/8161730/21918803/382136432.jpg
Colin beating Fair Play in the Withers

A curious footnote to these old-time races was that it was considered "unsportsmanlike" to embarrass your opposition. A victory by more than 5 or 6 lengths would be regarded as "ungentlemanly". Superior horses were generally put under wraps when an opponent was soundly beaten. A rare exception occurred with Man O War in the Lawrence Realization Stakes. He was at his peak and his owner and trainer wanted to see what he could really do. The jockey was instructed to let him "run as he pleased". As we know, he pleased to win by 100 lengths.

[tucker6]

A curious footnote to these old-time races was that it was considered "unsportsmanlike" to embarrass your opposition. A victory by more than 5 or 6 lengths would be regarded as "ungentlemanly". Superior horses were generally put under wraps when an opponent was soundly beaten. A rare exception occurred with Man O War in the Lawrence Realization Stakes. He was at his peak and his owner and trainer wanted to see what he could really do. The jockey was instructed to let him "run as he pleased". As we know, he pleased to win by 100 lengths.


You realize that as horse racing fans we already know that story has more holes than swiss cheese right?? If you're racing a claimer, and only one at that, then winning by 100 lengths when the only other horse in the race pulls up isn't worth the mention if you know what I mean. It'd be like me saying I won a 100 yard dash by 50 yards without telling you it was against an 8 year old girl with crutches.

[Norm]

You realize that as horse racing fans we already know that story has more holes than swiss cheese right?? If you're racing a claimer, and only one at that, then winning by 100 lengths when the only other horse in the race pulls up isn't worth the mention if you know what I mean. It'd be like me saying I won a 100 yard dash by 50 yards without telling you it was against an 8 year old girl with crutches.
The horse Man O War raced against that day, Hoodwink, was a competent horse, but no match for Big Red. He was there as a courtesy to Owner Sam Riddle (entered by his wife's niece). No one wanted to race against Man O War. If the race was to be a walk-over, Riddle would not collect the full purse (no betting on a walk-over.) In a sportsmanlike gesture, and because they wanted to see what Man O War could do, they decided to let him run for his money. He was given his head and allowed to run unrestrained. Running as he pleased and under no real pressure, he set a new world record for the distance. The 100 length win looks good in the legend, but the world record was for real.

[tzipi]

The horse Man O War raced against that day, Hoodwink, was a competent horse, but no match for Big Red. He was there as a courtesy to Owner Sam Riddle (entered by his wife's niece). No one wanted to race against Man O War. If the race was to be a walk-over, Riddle would not collect the full purse (no betting on a walk-over.) In a sportsmanlike gesture, and because they wanted to see what Man O War could do, they decided to let him run for his money. He was given his head and allowed to run unrestrained. Running as he pleased and under no real pressure, he set a new world record for the distance. The 100 length win looks good in the legend, but the world record was for real.

Yeah Hoodwink was just going around the track for a workout you could say. No where near the class of a stakes runner like Man O War. Just there as a favor so it wouldn't be a walkover. That story is now known for what it is. I remember the stories back in the day how stretched they were about who he races and the 100 lengths :D
It's like putting Sec,Slew,etc against a med-high claimer entered just for money and as a favor and not going to run hard. 100+ lengths. Setting the record was nice though by man O War nice run he put in.

P.S. Man O War did not walk around the track in ease the whole time and set a record. He ran his race and was "restrained at the end". Hoodwink was the one who jogged around as a favor.