Do horses know how long a race is?

[keithw84]

Having seen races where horses just barely do what it takes to win or where horses go from stalking to passing the others without being asked, I am wondering to what extent they know how long the race is. Do they know exactly where the wire is?

Also, what exactly does a jockey do when he "asks" his horse?

[Greyfox]

Having seen races where horses just barely do what it takes to win or where horses go from stalking to passing the others without being asked, I am wondering to what extent they know how long the race is. Do they know exactly where the wire is?

Also, what exactly does a jockey do when he "asks" his horse?

Good questions.

Let me answer the last one first.

1. What does a jockey do when he "asks" his horse?

Approximately 3 furlongs from the wire, he lowers his body and "chirps" in the horses ear hoping the horse will respond with continued run.

2. Does a horse know how long a race is?

Most will say probably not. I'm going to say that horses are smarter than we think. If they are accustomed to a track there is a good possibility that they have an idea from the gate positioning how far they are going and where they will be asked to try harder. But I'm not going to argue about it.

[Overlay]

My take is that, if a horse knew how long a race was, it would mean that with time and repetition, the horse would adjust its energy expenditure while running without prompting, and jockeys would just be passengers. I think it's in a horse's nature to run as fast as it can for as long as it can (however far that might be), and it's the jockey's role to regulate that impulse so that the horse has enough energy throughout the distance of the specific race to maximize its winning chances against whatever degree of competition it is facing. As reflected by long-term performance statistics, some jockeys are consistently better than others at achieving that. But, sometimes or even often, the comparative condition of the horse will not allow the horse to last the distance of the race, no matter how skilled the jockey.

[Backstretch Pirate]

Also, what exactly does a jockey do when he "asks" his horse?

This is when the jockey starts swearing at his mount. This is because he has strangled the horse all the way around the track, and now the horse has nothing to give. :D

[illinoisbred]

This is when the jockey starts swearing at his mount. This is because he has strangled the horse all the way around the track, and now the horse has nothing to give. :D
So true with everyday horses!

[jonnielu]

Good questions.

Let me answer the last one first.

1. What does a jockey do when he "asks" his horse?

Approximately 3 furlongs from the wire, he lowers his body and "chirps" in the horses ear hoping the horse will respond with continued run.

2. Does a horse know how long a race is?

Most will say probably not. I'm going to say that horses are smarter than we think. If they are accustomed to a track there is a good possibility that they have an idea from the gate positioning how far they are going and where they will be asked to try harder. But I'm not going to argue about it.


Horses are much more intelligent than people realize. Most can figure out that the race is done about a quarter mile past where the ass whipping starts.

jdl

[joanied]

Greyfox and overlay gave you great answers... I can only add that horses are creatures of habit, and they also take in everything around them and get familiar with it...they know where certain things are, many times if you add something to the familiar surroundings of a horse, they will notice it immidiately, they can recognize people and other animals as familiar or strange/new...and these types of inbred natural insincts play a part in their knowing where (approximately) the wire is.

[therussmeister]

I seen many times, a horse dump the jockey out of the gate, and then run an almost perfect race: settle in back (takes time to dump the jockey), make a move from the back-of-the-pack at the right time, get into contention at the top of the stretch, but then they always go wide in the stretch :( . These are always experienced horses. I assume they know at least where the finish line is.

[joanied]

I seen many times, a horse dump the jockey out of the gate, and then run an almost perfect race: settle in back (takes time to dump the jockey), make a move from the back-of-the-pack at the right time, get into contention at the top of the stretch, but then they always go wide in the stretch :( . These are always experienced horses. I assume they know at least where the finish line is.

Good point...but some of that, a loose horse staying in the race, is his natural instinct to stay with the herd.
:)

[johnhannibalsmith]

I think you have to look at 'intelligent' horses as associative animals. Meaning, they don't necessarily know where they are at on the track in the sense that riders or spectators do, but that they are able to associate certain stimulus to form a conclusion that gives the impression that they are aware of the situation and to that end, their relationship to certain relative points in the event.

As was alluded to, the posture and antics of the riders as well as the familiarity of their own subtle mechanics (lead changes) are all associative occurences that help form loose conclusions to the horse that we perceive as 'knowledge' on the part of the horse.

Just as something of an example off the top of my head:

I claimed a bad bleeder that gushed inside the quarter-pole the day that I claimed him. From that day forward, the horse, be it morning or afternoon, always had an adverse relationship to that point of the racetrack (drifted out, etc...). I'm not inclined to believe that he "feared" he would bleed at that point in a specific sense, but rather that he subconsciously associated that past trauma with every instance that re-created the traumatic event.

[sandpit]

I don't know this with any certainty, but I'd say that Kelso, Forego, and John Henry all knew exactly where the wire was. It does make a lot of sense for horses that are very familiar with the track have some sense of where the finish is as well. Even when they workout, most horses shut it down right at the finish line, so it would make sense that they are accustomed to quit trying when they hit that spot on the track. Interesting subject.

[Overlay]

One additional thought: If the horse had an awareness of where the finish was that could overrule the jockey, wouldn't Gallant Man have beaten Iron Liege in the 1957 Derby, since he would have "known" that Shoemaker was standing up in the irons too early? (I would imagine that the same thing regularly occurs on a wider (but less-publicized) scale.)

[46zilzal]

Anthropomorphism is alive and well I see.

Horses RUN out of a conditioned response to fight of flight. That is it.

[FenceBored]

Anthropomorphism is alive and well I see.

Horses RUN out of a conditioned response to fight of flight. That is it.

A prime example of a conditioned response. A post suggests the grey matter inside a horse's head might serve a purpose other than space filler, and Zizal pops up to throw out the word anthropomorphism. Clearly no indication of actual thought processes occuring in either animal's case.

[Greyfox]

Anthropomorphism is alive and well I see.

Horses RUN out of a conditioned response to fight of flight. That is it.

Fencebored is right. The above response is lacking thought.
1. It does not address the questions posed at the start of the thread.
2. There is no such thing as "fight of flight." The poster doesn't even spot errors like that in his own writing - and that's not a typo.
3. Expect in a post or two to hear about Desmond Morris, even if it has nothing to do with the initial questions.

[delayjf]

2. Does a horse know how long a race is?

I don't know about the distance, but I've wondered if horses get used to starting their run at about the same location on the track. A lot of Belmont Stakes runners have lost the triple crown with what seems like a premature moves. If they are accustomed to starting their run entering the final turn, on one mile tracks their move gets them home, but on Belmonts longer sweeping turns they run out of gas about 1/16 out. (I.E Real Quiet, Charismatic, Smarty Jones.)

[46zilzal]

All those years of animal behaviorists studies. LOST on people who NEVER read a thing about it but surmise things at arms length.

Get a degree in Zoology, read behaviorists evaluations. understand the basics behind it, and you might put many of these totally unsubstantiated ideas to rest.

[LRL Racing]

All I can add is that one time I owned a very nice G2 winning mare who would never pull up after a race until she got galloped out to the front. My trainer who is one of the best looked at me one day after she finished third but continued a strong gallop until she was in front about a 1/4 mile past the finish and told me not to tell her she didn't win because she thought she was undefeated.

[letswastemoney]

I seen many times, a horse dump the jockey out of the gate, and then run an almost perfect race: settle in back (takes time to dump the jockey), make a move from the back-of-the-pack at the right time, get into contention at the top of the stretch, but then they always go wide in the stretch :( . These are always experienced horses. I assume they know at least where the finish line is.
Have you seen the Gander race where he dumps Mike Smith at the start and still stalks the pace and "wins"? That would be a good example of what you just said

[letswastemoney]

Here it is...Gander "wins" without a jockey (beats Evening Attire as well)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2bG90Qxdc

[Tom]

All those years of animal behaviorists studies. LOST on people who NEVER read a thing about it but surmise things at arms length.

Get a degree in Zoology, read behaviorists evaluations. understand the basics behind it, and you might put many of these totally unsubstantiated ideas to rest.

BS.
There is far too much evidence of horses having preferences, of horses reacting to other horses in the race, of horses changing their styles.
All the crap you refer to yet you still have not answered my question about sprinters slowing down in route races....how can they do that when they are hard wired. Your statement that jockey just steer is the dumbest thing about racing I have ever read.

[Tape Reader]

I'm not sure about the horse knowing the distance, but I do believe they know the finish line.

How about all the stories that we have heard, about the old milk horses knowing every stop on the route.

[Greyfox]

How about all the stories that we have heard, about the old milk horses knowing every stop on the route.

Absolutely true. They used to say that even if the milk man had a heart attack, the horse would take him back to the Dairy after completing his route

That's also a problem when I see jockeys give a front runner a four furlong work and stop it with the intent to score next time out. Several years ago I saw a jock fly to the front with his horse several lengths ahead of the field.
The use of his legs and distribution of weight literally stopped the horse at the four furlong mark.
The next time out the horse flew to the front again. At the four furlong mark it absolutely stopped and there was nothing the jockey could do to make it go again. They are fast learners.

[bisket]

I don't know about the distance, but I've wondered if horses get used to starting their run at about the same location on the track. A lot of Belmont Stakes runners have lost the triple crown with what seems like a premature moves. If they are accustomed to starting their run entering the final turn, on one mile tracks their move gets them home, but on Belmonts longer sweeping turns they run out of gas about 1/16 out. (I.E Real Quiet, Charismatic, Smarty Jones.)
i was just going to post this. in morning works horses are asked at the same place on the track. in races they are asked at the same place on the track. thats usually at the beginning of the turn leading to the stretch. at belmont thats entirely to early. this is why imop there is many upsets in the belmont by local barns. incidentally i also believe this is why many horses going from dirt to poly don't have as good win pctg. as horses going from poly to dirt. on poly in a route you don't want to move until the stretch as apposed to starting on the turn. horses that run on dirt are accustomed to running on the turn; this is too early on poly track. i think its much easier for a jock to start a horse's bid earlier than usual. a dirt horse going to poly wants to move on the turn and i think its much more of a challenge for a jock to fight with a horse thats ready to run than the opposite.

[Grits]

Have you seen the Gander race where he dumps Mike Smith at the start and still stalks the pace and "wins"? That would be a good example of what you just said

That video is priceless, and I'll never forget that day!! Still, my favorite grand old boy, Attire, got the money and the real win.

Gander's ears were pricked, happy as a clam. The boy knew he'd won that race.

And we don't think horses know where the wire is, or that they've won a race? Oh, but they do, particularly, the smart ones.

[Jackal]

Horses know when they are nearing the end of the race. All Jockeys will ask the horse to change leads. They will start urging the horse to give his all - each jockey has his/her own way of urging the horse. Horses know where the finish line is located. Each morning the horse is given his head at the wire for just a moment.

Do horses know how long the race might be? No! Do horses know the race is ending? Yes!

[delayjf]

All those years of animal behaviorists studies. LOST on people who NEVER read a thing about it but surmise things at arms length.

Animal Behaviorist - now there is an exact science. When it comes to horses, I would much rather listen to someone like Marion or Jack Van Berg who has probably forgotten more about horses than any ten animal behaviorist who think their PhDs make them omnipotent and are too interested in stroking their vanity with delusions of their "superior intellect".

this is why imop there is many upsets in the belmont by local barns. incidentally i also believe this is why many horses going from dirt to poly don't have as good win pctg. as horses going from poly to dirt. on poly in a route you don't want to move until the stretch as apposed to starting on the turn. horses that run on dirt are accustomed to running on the turn; this is too early on poly track. i think its much easier for a jock to start a horse's bid earlier than usual. a dirt horse going to poly wants to move on the turn and i think its much more of a challenge for a jock to fight with a horse thats ready to run than the opposite.

Ha Ha, stole your thunder :p - interesting points above.