Jerry Moss, the REAL whine-maker

[FenceBored]

Jerry Moss likes to say that Zenyatta was beaten by proxy. But, this is not true. Zenyatta lost HOY due to the unimaginative, and ultimately weak campaign, arranged by ... whom?

I bring this up again because of a column by Dan Lieberman at the Bloodhorse, Breeders' Cup not a World Championship (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/27/breeders-cup-not-a-world-championship.aspx), which highlights one of Mr. Moss's mistakes, namely believing the hype that the BC is "like the Super Bowl" of horseracing. It's not.
You cannot compare Thoroughbred racing to other sports. In baseball, football, basketball, etc., the league office determines the schedule. It tells teams when to play, and where. Teams can’t decide to skip a game or pass the playoffs. In racing, the owner and trainer decide a horse’s schedule.
-- http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/27/breeders-cup-not-a-world-championship.aspx (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/27/breeders-cup-not-a-world-championship.aspx)
This is one of the strengths of horseracing, one that demonstrates its continuing existence as a true athletic competition (with associated mental competition from the spectators via paramutuel wagering), the myriad of separate owners each striving with their horses to accomplish the goals they have created for themselves, not just following the whims of some Prince of Paddock, some Raj of Racing, some Hegemon of Horses. In contrast, those 'organized' sports such as baseball, basketball, and hockey which also have lengthy seasons, but which have a defined playoff and championship structure, risk apathy amongst their fan base for the majority of the regular season. How many people do you know who say they only begin to pay attention to the NBA when the playoffs start, or ignore baseball until late August at the earliest? Racing, by having major races such as the Donn on Feb. 6th, scattered throughout the year, offers the public a constantly renewing set of contests with real value toward determining the year end championships.

This is the lesson Mr. Moss forgot, that hiding out in the corner of the sport defeating lesser grade opponents, the 'has beens' and the 'never weres', cannot be offset by just one single attempt at a challenging race, regardless of the hype which surrounds it. Scoring two touchdowns in the last minute of the game is great, but it doesn't change the outcome when you are down by 30 points.

[DJofSD]

Football, et al, do not have a win (one) and you're in the big dance format either.

[Dan H]

Rachel is a Horse of the Year in the United States.

Zenyatta is a Breeder's Cup World Champion.

Both are pretty nice trophies.

One was won by ballot.

One was won by racing.

I place more value on the latter.

[FenceBored]

Rachel is a Horse of the Year in the United States.

Zenyatta is a Breeder's Cup World Champion.

Both are pretty nice trophies.

One was won by ballot.

One was won by racing.

I place more value on the latter.

Correction: both were won by racing. One was won by running a single race. One was won by running a real campaign.

[Dan H]

Correction: both were won by racing. One was won by running a single race. One was won by running a real campaign.

I saw it live on television. The guy opened an envelope and read the name Rachel Alexandra!

[FenceBored]

I saw it live on television. The guy opened an envelope and read the name Rachel Alexandra!

What you saw was the culmination of a process which began with the running of races. No horse's connections have ever won a racing championship with a horse who never ran a race.

[tucker6]

Correction: both were won by racing. One was won by running a single race. One was won by running a real campaign.
LOL. I was going to say the same thing.

[DRIVEWAY]

Rachel is a Horse of the Year in the United States.

Zenyatta is a Breeder's Cup World Champion.

Both are pretty nice trophies.

One was won by ballot.

One was won by racing.

I place more value on the latter.

Fewer than 300 people voted. Just about every poll taken of the general racing public had the opposite outcome. :confused:

[Dahoss9698]

Fewer than 300 people voted. Just about every poll taken of the general racing public had the opposite outcome. :confused:

Which is the exact reason why the general public should never vote for awards, all star teams, Hall of Fames, etc.

[Kimsus]

Jerry Moss likes to say that Zenyatta was beaten by proxy. But, this is not true. Zenyatta lost HOY due to the unimaginative, and ultimately weak campaign, arranged by ... whom?

I bring this up again because of a column by Dan Lieberman at the Bloodhorse, Breeders' Cup not a World Championship (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/27/breeders-cup-not-a-world-championship.aspx), which highlights one of Mr. Moss's mistakes, namely believing the hype that the BC is "like the Super Bowl" of horseracing. It's not.
You cannot compare Thoroughbred racing to other sports. In baseball, football, basketball, etc., the league office determines the schedule. It tells teams when to play, and where. Teams can’t decide to skip a game or pass the playoffs. In racing, the owner and trainer decide a horse’s schedule.
-- http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/27/breeders-cup-not-a-world-championship.aspx (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/27/breeders-cup-not-a-world-championship.aspx)
This is one of the strengths of horseracing, one that demonstrates its continuing existence as a true athletic competition (with associated mental competition from the spectators via paramutuel wagering), the myriad of separate owners each striving with their horses to accomplish the goals they have created for themselves, not just following the whims of some Prince of Paddock, some Raj of Racing, some Hegemon of Horses. In contrast, those 'organized' sports such as baseball, basketball, and hockey which also have lengthy seasons, but which have a defined playoff and championship structure, risk apathy amongst their fan base for the majority of the regular season. How many people do you know who say they only begin to pay attention to the NBA when the playoffs start, or ignore baseball until late August at the earliest? Racing, by having major races such as the Donn on Feb. 6th, scattered throughout the year, offers the public a constantly renewing set of contests with real value toward determining the year end championships.

This is the lesson Mr. Moss forgot, that hiding out in the corner of the sport defeating lesser grade opponents, the 'has beens' and the 'never weres', cannot be offset by just one single attempt at a challenging race, regardless of the hype which surrounds it. Scoring two touchdowns in the last minute of the game is great, but it doesn't change the outcome when you are down by 30 points.

HOY is done and over. Like I said the minute it was announced it's time to move on....Rachel deserved HOY or to be more accurate it was actually just short 3/4's of the year for the better overall campaign she had over Zenyatta's one superb performance sprinkled in with what some will call as a conservative campaign even though in the end she won 3 grade 1's in most cases with the handicap of carrying highweight. The amounts of space wasted on continuing to debate this is a waste of time, and to be fair both sides both can be accused of hiding out when it came to certain races(not the exact way I would put it though)...It's time to move on to new discussions as to who the better horse is when they get back, I look fwd to a future matchup now that Rachel is 4 and Zen is 6, where no one has the weight advantage though from what I have read since Rachel is so good and she is HOY maybe she should be the one giving weight for a change and to Zenyatta in particular since she is too slow.

Joanied I hope you loved the sacasm in this post. ;)

[Dan H]

HOY is done and over.

This is no longer a debate about Horse of the Year. It's about an original poster touting an article whose headline reads: "Breeder's Cup not a World Championship."

Should we put an asterisk besides the name of Ferdinand (1987), Curlin (2007), and AP Indy (1992)? Are their victories diminished because Dan Leiberman at Bloodhorse says the Breeder's Cup is not a world championship?

Zenyatta is my world champion. There was a race. I saw it.

Rachel Alexandra is horse of the year. There was a vote. I saw it.

[joanied]

HOY is done and over. Like I said the minute it was announced it's time to move on....Rachel deserved HOY or to be more accurate it was actually just short 3/4's of the year for the better overall campaign she had over Zenyatta's one superb performance sprinkled in with what some will call as a conservative campaign even though in the end she won 3 grade 1's in most cases with the handicap of carrying highweight. The amounts of space wasted on continuing to debate this is a waste of time, and to be fair both sides both can be accused of hiding out when it came to certain races(not the exact way I would put it though)...It's time to move on to new discussions as to who the better horse is when they get back, I look fwd to a future matchup now that Rachel is 4 and Zen is 6, where no one has the weight advantage though from what I have read since Rachel is so good and she is HOY maybe she should be the one giving weight for a change and to Zenyatta in particular since she is too slow.

Joanied I hope you loved the sacasm in this post. ;)

I'll need some time to mull it over:rolleyes:

[FenceBored]

HOY is done and over. Like I said the minute it was announced it's time to move on....Rachel deserved HOY or to be more accurate it was actually just short 3/4's of the year for the better overall campaign she had over Zenyatta's one superb performance sprinkled in with what some will call as a conservative campaign even though in the end she won 3 grade 1's in most cases with the handicap of carrying highweight. The amounts of space wasted on continuing to debate this is a waste of time, and to be fair both sides both can be accused of hiding out when it came to certain races(not the exact way I would put it)...It's time to move on to new discussions as to who the better horse is when they get back, I look fwd to the matchup now that Rachel is 4 and Zen is 6, where no one has the weight advantage though from what I have read since Rachel is so good and she is HOY maybe she should be the one giving weight for a change and to Zenyatta in particular since she is too slow.

This discussion isn't about who's the better horse (Rachel of course), but rather the fallacies underlying Jerry Moss's choice of races for Zenyatta last year. Knowing that he wanted the HOY for Zenyatta, knowing that he wanted her to be fresh and ready for a SA BC, he still had numerous options to which he did not avail himself. Indeed, as the year went on and Rachel's campaign eclisped Zenyatta's modest efforts Team Zenyatta did not adjust to the changing landscape, instead they continued to follow their old GPS loaded with outdated street maps. Is it any wonder Mr. Moss didn't reach his goal? He relied on the imagined power of the Breeders' Cup to deliver him a championship without exerting himself. This is a lesson for other owners: The BC isn't the be all/end all of racing. If you want the HOY, you have to work for it.

[Dahoss9698]

This is no longer a debate about Horse of the Year. It's about an original poster touting an article whose headline reads: "Breeder's Cup not a World Championship."

Should we put an asterisk besides the name of Ferdinand (1987), Curlin (2007), and AP Indy (1992)? Are their victories diminished because Dan Leiberman at Bloodhorse says the Breeder's Cup is not a world championship?

Zenyatta is my world champion. There was a race. I saw it.

Rachel Alexandra is horse of the year. There was a vote. I saw it.

So, by this logic, Dancing In Silks was your top sprinter in the world last year? Oh and Conduit was your world champion on turf right?

[DeanT]

This is one of the strengths of horseracing, one that demonstrates its continuing existence as a true athletic competition (with associated mental competition from the spectators via paramutuel wagering), ............ In contrast, those 'organized' sports such as baseball, basketball, and hockey which also have lengthy seasons, but which have a defined playoff and championship structure, risk apathy amongst their fan base for the majority of the regular season.
I do find one thing a little strange in your argument: Baseball, Basketball and Hockey are popular.

[Kimsus]

I'll need some time to mull it over:rolleyes:

Too much bristleliness my the post Joanied? Truthfully there is not one unfactual thing in my post. Though some may take issue with my description of Zenyatta's BC as being 'superb'. :)

[Kimsus]

This is no longer a debate about Horse of the Year. It's about an original poster touting an article whose headline reads: "Breeder's Cup not a World Championship."

Should we put an asterisk besides the name of Ferdinand (1987), Curlin (2007), and AP Indy (1992)? Are their victories diminished because Dan Leiberman at Bloodhorse says the Breeder's Cup is not a world championship?

Zenyatta is my world champion. There was a race. I saw it.

Rachel Alexandra is horse of the year. There was a vote. I saw it.

The BC was originally formatted to decide year end honors, that is if the connections of horses universally decide to race in the event. Most do, and a select few choose not to. That was the problem this year, my analogy would be it would be the equivalent of the 18-0 NE Patroits not showing up at the SuperBowl because they had the best season, and them being crowned Super Bowl champions...Illogical to say the least as we know they lost to the Giants.

[Dan H]

So, by this logic, Dancing In Silks was your top sprinter in the world last year? Oh and Conduit was your world champion on turf right?

All I'm saying is the horse racing industry hosts a series of races near the end of each year under a banner called Breeder's Cup World Championships. So, if a horse wins one of those races, aren't they called world champions.

Yes, Dancing In Silks was a world champion sprinter.

Yes, Conduit was a world champion turfer.

We all watched the races. There wasn't a vote.

Should we change the name of the event every fall to something else?

[FenceBored]

This is no longer a debate about Horse of the Year. It's about an original poster touting an article whose headline reads: "Breeder's Cup not a World Championship."

Should we put an asterisk besides the name of Ferdinand (1987), Curlin (2007), and AP Indy (1992)? Are their victories diminished because Dan Leiberman at Bloodhorse says the Breeder's Cup is not a world championship?

Zenyatta is my world champion. There was a race. I saw it.

Rachel Alexandra is horse of the year. There was a vote. I saw it.

Who died and made the BC a world championship? If NYRA announced that they were retroactively changing the name of the Jockey Club Gold Cup to the Championship of the Universe Gold Cup, would you be saying that Summer Bird is your Champion of the Universe?

[FenceBored]

The BC was originally formatted to decide year end honors, that is if the connections of horses universally decide to race in the event. Most do, and a select few choose not to. That was the problem this year, my analogy would be it would be the equivalent of the 18-0 NE Patroits not showing up at the SuperBowl because they had the best season, and them being crowned Super Bowl champions...Illogical to say the least as we know they lost to the Giants.

This is exactly the point. It ain't the Super Bowl. This ain't football. If you can't tell the difference, get new glasses.

[Kimsus]

This discussion isn't about who's the better horse (Rachel of course), but rather the fallacies underlying Jerry Moss's choice of races for Zenyatta last year. Knowing that he wanted the HOY for Zenyatta, knowing that he wanted her to be fresh and ready for a SA BC, he still had numerous options to which he did not avail himself. Indeed, as the year went on and Rachel's campaign eclisped Zenyatta's modest efforts Team Zenyatta did not adjust to the changing landscape, instead they continued to follow their old GPS loaded with outdated street maps. Is it any wonder Mr. Moss didn't reach his goal? He relied on the imagined power of the Breeders' Cup to deliver him a championship without exerting himself. This is a lesson for other owners: The BC isn't the be all/end all of racing. If you want the HOY, you have to work for it.

I'm sure he will get over it, at this point I believe he wants Zenyatta to be HOTD(Horse of the decade) and not just HOY of 2009-10. Even more so I am sure he wants a match up with Rachel, or why is he coming back? To run in the Clement Hirsch? :rolleyes:

[FenceBored]

I do find one thing a little strange in your argument: Baseball, Basketball and Hockey are popular.

:blush: oops, ya got me there. :lol:

[joanied]

Too much bristleliness my the post Joanied? Truthfully there is not one unfactual thing in my post. Though some may take issue with my description of Zenyatta's BC as being 'superb'. :)

Now there ya go...I was getting worried you'd lost your touch for sarcasm:rolleyes:

[Kimsus]

This is exactly the point. It ain't the Super Bowl. This ain't football. If you can't tell the difference, get new glasses.

You do understand the visual aspect of illustrating a point and this one was effectively accurate...

[FenceBored]

All I'm saying is the horse racing industry hosts a series of races near the end of each year under a banner called Breeder's Cup World Championships. So, if a horse wins one of those races, aren't they called world champions.

Yes, Dancing In Silks was a world champion sprinter.

Yes, Conduit was a world champion turfer.

We all watched the races. There wasn't a vote.

Should we change the name of the event every fall to something else?

Noooooo, one organization hosts one of the shortest race meets in the WOOORRRLLDD, and claims it constitutes the "World Championships." Not everyone agrees, just as not everyone invested with Bernie Madoff.

[Dan H]

Who died and made the BC a world championship?

Not Dan Leiberman.

[FenceBored]

You do understand the visual aspect of illustrating a point and this one was effectively accurate...

I do understand the concept of accuracy, and this one ain't. It's the most simpleminded, wrongheaded piece of tripe to be endlessly repeated as if it actually meant something, when it doesn't.

[Johnny V]

Which is the exact reason why the general public should never vote for awards, all star teams, Hall of Fames, etc.
:ThmbUp: Ditto!

[FenceBored]

Not Dan Leiberman.

Exactly, Mr. Liebman is alive and well, and the BC is not a World Championship. QED.

[cj]

To call Conduit a World Champion turfer of 2009 shows how weak the BC can be.

[Dahoss9698]

All I'm saying is the horse racing industry hosts a series of races near the end of each year under a banner called Breeder's Cup World Championships. So, if a horse wins one of those races, aren't they called world champions.

Yes, Dancing In Silks was a world champion sprinter.

Yes, Conduit was a world champion turfer.

We all watched the races. There wasn't a vote.

Should we change the name of the event every fall to something else?

No, they aren't world championships. The Breeders Cup can call it that, but sadly it isn't. I assume you watched Sea The Stars beat Conduit twice last year. Wouldn't that make him world champion?

[Kimsus]

I do understand the concept of accuracy, and this one ain't. It's the most simpleminded, wrongheaded piece of tripe to be endlessly repeated as if it actually meant something, when it doesn't.

Layman's terms explanations are usually the most effective, If NE missed the big dance how many people would have thought they would have won the Superbowl? 95%? at equal odds on the Giants? The distinction here is the BC by most horseman's standards is the Superbowl of racing where it is decided beforehand that the best meet the best...ask Pletcher with Quality Road, ask Ice with Summer Bird...a select few decide to stay home and by doing so we can never assume they would have gone on to win the big game or in this case the race.!

[Kimsus]

To call Conduit a World Champion turfer of 2009 shows how weak the BC can be.

True, The BC is NA centric. I think most would accept this.

And I just want to modify your statement abit, "shows just how weak The BC Turf races can be." This is probably most accurate.

[Dan H]

No, they aren't world championships. The Breeders Cup can call it that, but sadly it isn't. I assume you watched Sea The Stars beat Conduit twice last year. Wouldn't that make him world champion?

Doesn't your logic diminish the Eclipse Awards as well?

I won't see your answer until the end of the Santa Anita card, but great debate nonetheless.

I think the OP was provoking an RA/Zen discussion.

[Kimsus]

True, The BC is NA centric. I think most would accept this.

And I just want to modify your statement abit, "shows just how weak The BC Turf races can be." This is probably most accurate.

The OP made me think back and the BC actually has had many great turfers run since it's inception.

Swain, Singspiel, Pilsudski, Fantastic Light, High Chapparal, Rock Of Gibralter, Kalanisi, Six Perfections, Miesque, Mark Of Esteem, Goldikova, Banks Hill, Ouija Board, Subotica...ect...Not as weak one may want to believe.

[FenceBored]

Layman's terms explanations are usually the most effective, If NE missed the big dance how many people would have thought they would have won the Superbowl? 95%? at equal odds on the Giants? The distinction here is the BC by most horseman's standards is the Superbowl of racing where it is decided beforehand that the best meet the best...ask Pletcher with Quality Road, ask Ice with Summer Bird...a select few decide to stay home and by doing so we can never assume they would have gone on to win the big game or in this case the race.!

Layman's, ha, more like lameman's.

The analogy has no correlation to horseracing so continuing to repeat it, expand upon it, drive it into the ground time and time again, is pointless.

That was Mr. Liebman's point, one with which I concur.

[Kimsus]

Layman's, ha, more like lameman's.

The analogy has no correlation to horseracing so continuing to repeat it, expand upon it, drive it into the ground time and time again, is pointless.

That was Mr. Liebman's point, one with which I concur.

That's a response I expect when they have no comeback, be it as it may. You are entitled to your opinion.

[FenceBored]

Doesn't your logic diminish the Eclipse Awards as well?

I won't see your answer until the end of the Santa Anita card, but great debate nonetheless.

I think the OP was provoking an RA/Zen discussion.

Seeing things as they truly are doesn't diminish them unless you had an overinflated view of them to begin with. And then it wasn't real, was it?

[FenceBored]

That's a response I expect when they have no comeback, be it as it may. You are entitled to your opinion.

What would you have someone say, "your analogy was ludicrous the first 50 times, but I'll take it seriously now that you've repeated it a 51st time?"

[Dahoss9698]

Doesn't your logic diminish the Eclipse Awards as well?

I won't see your answer until the end of the Santa Anita card, but great debate nonetheless.

I think the OP was provoking an RA/Zen discussion.

Not at all. The eclipse awards are voted on based on who had the best overall year. That's why a horse like Lookin at Lucky won despite running second in the BC. It's why Kodiak Kowboy was voted champion sprinter and not Dancing In Silks and so on and so on.

Not to mention the Eclipse aren't worldwide awards.

[Kimsus]

What would you have someone say, "your analogy was ludicrous the first 50 times, but I'll take it seriously now that you've repeated it a 51st time?"

So if I understand you correctly, had Rachel run in the BC Classic it was a foregone conclusion just as the 18-0 Patroits winning the Superbowl...That's what you are inferring by saying the premise if ridiculous regardless of how many topics you will probably try to introduce to deflect and misdirect the point of illustration I made.

[FenceBored]

So if I understand you correctly, had Rachel run in the BC Classic it was a foregone conclusion just as the 18-0 Patroits winning the Superbowl...That's what you are inferring by saying the premise if ridiculous regardless of how many topics you will probably try to introduce to deflect and misdirect the point of illustration I made.

:bang:I'm saying that talking about the friggin' Patriots is silly. Horseracing isn't football.

It's like when the 1972 Dolphins faced off against the 1985 Bears in the 1996 Superbowl. :faint::faint::faint:

[DRIVEWAY]

Which is the exact reason why the general public should never vote for awards, all star teams, Hall of Fames, etc.

The movie goer, the fan and the general public should all have input to these recognitions.

Hopefully, the etc. doesn't include political elections.

[Hanover1]

Several posts here are best described as a stance to strengthen the view of 1 of these mares somehow deserving a title that can have different meanings to different folks imo. A twist on RA vs Zen all over again.
Since the breeders pull many of the strings in our sport, they have designed a series of races to showcase the bloodstock that is competing at the highest level in several divisions that year. An attractive name was given this series, to attract the fans, and potential investors. The fact that a horse shows up that day and wins does NOT automaticly entitle them to HOY honors. If that were true, then why was not every horse to win the BC Classic (I did not say Super Bowl either...) voted HOY?
Its about a yearlong journey that is observed by many in the industry that watch races, scour programs/DRF lines ect...that decide who deserves the honors-not any 1 given race. Perhaps we are getting caught up in the sematics of the actual name of the year end BC races, BC "championships". The race serves the breeders well with the showcase effect, and bragging rights in bold type print, but should not be confused for a vote deciding tool to crown a horse a champion on the basis of winning 1 of those races.
String a few well publicized races together against horses at the highest level all year, and you will certainly bet many votes. Now look at the 2 campaigns of these mares, be objective, and the answer is obvious in regards to HOY-to voters have spoken.
Whew, that was a bit much, lol. To close, Moss did indeed gamble and fail, in his quest for HOY, and placed to much value on a BC victory alone to secure the honor-Ray Charles could see it........

[Kimsus]

:bang:I'm saying that talking about the friggin' Patriots is silly. Horseracing isn't football.

It's like when the 1972 Dolphins faced off against the 1985 Bears in the 1996 Superbowl. :faint::faint::faint:

I never said football and horseracing are identical sports, what I am saying is the vast majority of owners in horseracing want to win on the highest stage and point for the BC because they know it carries prestige, it is generally accepted that is where you will find the deepest quality fields, the poly excuse not withstanding it didn't stop Quality Road or Summer Bird from trying. I would surmise there are far less owners that are mapping a campaign out right now pointing for the Woodward rather than the BC.

Furthermore I doubt the New Orleans Saints and Indy Colts are particularily fond of playing on natural grass but they will because they understand the superbowl is where would be champions meet, or do you suggest they vote on who had the better overall season to decide the Superbowl?

[delayjf]

This discussion isn't about who's the better horse (Rachel of course), but rather the fallacies underlying Jerry Moss's choice of races for Zenyatta last year. Knowing that he wanted the HOY for Zenyatta, knowing that he wanted her to be fresh and ready for a SA BC, he still had numerous options to which he did not avail himself.

So tell me, what race could Jerry have entered Zenyatta in realistically to take on Rachel Alexandra? You are in denial if you don't think there was a reason for announcing to run in the Woodward one week before the race - knowing Zenyatta would have to ship, acclimate and run on three weeks rest. Maybe Moss assumed Rachel Alexandra would run in the Beldame, after all, Zenyatta was entered, or that they would meet up in the BCC.

[FenceBored]

I never said football and horseracing are identical sports, what I am saying is the vast majority of owners in horseracing want to win on the highest stage and point for the BC because they know it carries prestige, it is generally accepted that is where you will find the deepest quality fields, the poly excuse not withstanding it didn't stop Quality Road or Summer Bird from trying. I would surmise there are far less owners that are mapping a campaign out right now pointing for the Woodward rather than the BC.

Furthermore I doubt the New Orleans Saints and Indy Colts are particularily fond of playing on natural grass but they will because they understand the superbowl is where would be champions meet, or do you suggest they vote on who had the better overall season to decide the Superbowl?

Yes, the BC carries prestige. The Ky Derby carries more, especially for 3 year old colts, but nobody thinks that the winner of that race should be automatically the 3 year old champion, or HOY for that matter. The winner of the Classic has won HOY 11 of the 26 years it's been run. That good, but it's not no dang ol' Super Bowl.

It's people like you, with your overinflated sense of the BC's importance, who misled Jerry Moss into continuing with his original plans and depriving Zenyatta of the glory she might have earned. And here you are trying to mislead future owners to make the same mistake. Shameful.

[FenceBored]

So tell me, what race could Jerry have entered Zenyatta in realistically to take on Rachel Alexandra? You are in denial if you don't think there was a reason for announcing to run in the Woodward one week before the race - knowing Zenyatta would have to ship, acclimate and run on three weeks rest. Maybe Moss assumed Rachel Alexandra would run in the Beldame, after all, Zenyatta was entered, or that they would meet up in the BCC.

Who said she had to face Rachel? If she had run in the Pacific Classic, instead of the Clement Hirsch and/or run in the Goodwood instead of the Lady's Secret and won, I'm sure the voting would have at least been closer, if not a victory for Zenyatta. Life is Sweet took a break from jobbing for Zenyatta to run against the boys, why couldn't Zenyatta face off against males before the BC?

[delayjf]

I agree with you Moss should have entered into the Pacific Classic. If she lost she could still aim for the Classic or the Distaff. I don't know if they just became enthralled with going undefeated or maybe they were looking at her speed figures and underestimated her ability. What I can't understand is why they kept entering her at 1 1/16 - that is not her best distance.

[Dahoss9698]

The movie goer, the fan and the general public should all have input to these recognitions.

Hopefully, the etc. doesn't include political elections.

The fans voted Allen Iverson a starter in this years NBA All Star team. That should be proof enough.

The problem with fans voting is it becomes a popularity contest. The casual fan is too biased by emotion. There is a reason the people that vote on these things are chosen. It's not just random.

[bisket]

moss lost the hoy award for zenyatta in may. rachel won the preakness, and zenyatta won the milady handicap toting 129lbs. next on the schedule out west would be the clement hirsch HANDICAP at delmar where zenyatta figured to be given 130lbs. moss was quoted as saying after the race that he wasn't looking forward to zenyatta having to carry that much weight, and maybe they would look elsewhere for her next race. this is when all the hysteria about a zen and rachel matchup started. a few days later it was announced that the cal racing board had decided to not allow handicap races in graded competition, and the hirsch was changed to a weight for age STAKES race. so when forced to maybe race zenyatta against a foe that just may beat her, california decided to give moss an out, and he took it. zenyatta's cakewalk to the cup was arranged. what did rachel's connections do when it was evident that she was much better than the other fillies and mares. they found harder challenges for her, and made the summer and fall enjoyable for race fans and also themselves. the moss' and all the fans in california that were hoodwinked by the tracks in california can cry all they want. the right horse won hoy without a doubt. one race doesn't make a champion, and doing this would weaken the breed even more than it is now. so i guess all the cal racing fans are just gonna have to take this one for the team because their tracks and the moss' brought this on themselves!!

[Hanover1]

Summed the thread, and tired debates up quite well Bisk.... :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Who died and made the BC a world championship? If NYRA announced that they were retroactively changing the name of the Jockey Club Gold Cup to the Championship of the Universe Gold Cup, would you be saying that Summer Bird is your Champion of the Universe?

Exactly. What if a poster from PA decided to sponsor a 5,000k claiming race at Golden Gate Fields and call the race "the Joe Blow five thousand dollar claiming world championship"

Then what?

Is the 5k Claimer who wins that race a world champion? If Joe Blow pays a few bucks to the marketing office at Golden Gate to name a race after himself and call it the world championship, who are we to say it ISNT a world title?

[Kimsus]

Yes, the BC carries prestige. The Ky Derby carries more, especially for 3 year old colts, but nobody thinks that the winner of that race should be automatically the 3 year old champion, or HOY for that matter. The winner of the Classic has won HOY 11 of the 26 years it's been run. That good, but it's not no dang ol' Super Bowl.

It's people like you, with your overinflated sense of the BC's importance, who misled Jerry Moss into continuing with his original plans and depriving Zenyatta of the glory she might have earned. And here you are trying to mislead future owners to make the same mistake. Shameful.

If this were truly the case, then losing in The BC would have no bearing in year end honors? If it is so meaningless how do explain the euro's from winning Eclispe awards on 1 performance, are all these horses unworthy?

[Kimsus]

You can say you don't like the BC concept but don't tell me they are no relevance.

[BetCrazyGirl]

Exactly. What if a poster from PA decided to sponsor a 5,000k claiming race at Golden Gate Fields and call the race "the Joe Blow five thousand dollar claiming world championship"

Then what?

Is the 5k Claimer who wins that race a world champion? If Joe Blow pays a few bucks to the marketing office at Golden Gate to name a race after himself and call it the world championship, who are we to say it ISNT a world title?

The owners who won't enter in their championship horses in a 5k claimer would pretty much declare it not a championship race I would assume.

[Dan H]

Exactly. What if a poster from PA decided to sponsor a 5,000k claiming race at Golden Gate Fields and call the race "the Joe Blow five thousand dollar claiming world championship"

Call it the Bleeder's Cup ???

[ExoticDancer]

Chickenyatta fans can't stand facts. They just want to see her run on poly and rubber tracks and pretend to be greatest. Run on dirt and beat the males I say but doubt it will happen.

[DRIVEWAY]

The fans voted Allen Iverson a starter in this years NBA All Star team. That should be proof enough.

The problem with fans voting is it becomes a popularity contest. The casual fan is too biased by emotion. There is a reason the people that vote on these things are chosen. It's not just random.

Who would you rather make a mistake - the chosen few or the fans?

One of the nails in the coffin of horse racing is ignoring the fan.

[Dahoss9698]

Who would you rather make a mistake - the chosen few or the fans?

One of the nails in the coffin of horse racing is ignoring the fan.

I would prefer neither makes a mistake. But I am much more confident that the people that vote on the eclipse now will make the correct choice than I am of the casual fan. Sorry if I don't want to see horse racing become American Idol.

[keithw84]

To address the post that started this, Moss could be a much more gracious loser. "Rachel had an oustanding year. She and Zenyatta are both champions and we look forward to the oppportunity for them to race each other." How would that sound? Yes, we know no one defeated Zenyatta last year. No one defeated Rachel either.

Regarding the importance of the BCC: It is a Grade I race, not a Grade Mega-I and not a Grade Ultimate Nullifier Of Everything Else That Happened. It is an important race that generally has a deep field. That does not give it infinite importance over other races.

Was Volponi robbed of HOTY in 2002? Or Raven's Pass for 2008?

[letswastemoney]

Oh well if the BC is called a "World Championship" then Zenyatta MUST BE champion not just of the California....but of the WORLD!!!!!!!!! I'm convinced.

Maybe if they held the BC in Europe once in a while, I'd be convinced it's a world championship. Until then...I don't believe it is.

[FenceBored]

You can say you don't like the BC concept but don't tell me they are no relevance.

Why hello Mr. Strawman, nice to see you made it to this discussion.

[gm10]

It's nearly Feb 2010. Let's move on.

[Relwob Owner]

Exactly. What if a poster from PA decided to sponsor a 5,000k claiming race at Golden Gate Fields and call the race "the Joe Blow five thousand dollar claiming world championship"

Then what?

Is the 5k Claimer who wins that race a world champion? If Joe Blow pays a few bucks to the marketing office at Golden Gate to name a race after himself and call it the world championship, who are we to say it ISNT a world title?

SRU,

I really enjoy many of your posts and your points but I think you missed the Mark here-while the Breeders Cup may not be what it used to be, it does have a strong history behind it and is really the closest thing we have to an end of the year championship---no offense to the Joe Blow Championship....:)

[FenceBored]

If this were truly the case, then losing in The BC would have no bearing in year end honors? If it is so meaningless how do explain the euro's from winning Eclispe awards on 1 performance, are all these horses unworthy?

Wow, you mean like Curlin winning HOY after finishing off the board in the BC? Like that? :lol:

Only 11 of the 26 winners of the BC Classic have been HOY for that year, in 10 of the last 26 years the winner of the Woodward has been HOY.

Gio Ponti won 2, count them 2, Eclipse awards this year while losing at the BC. One for a division whose 'world championship' race he bypassed for the shorter (and more lucrative) Classic.

[Kimsus]

Wow, you mean like Curlin winning HOY after finishing off the board in the BC? Like that? :lol:

Only 11 of the 26 winners of the BC Classic have been HOY for that year, in 10 of the last 26 years the winner of the Woodward has been HOY.

Gio Ponti won 2, count them 2, Eclipse awards this year while losing at the BC. One for a division whose 'world championship' race he bypassed for the shorter (and more lucrative) Classic.

My question addressed to you was retorical, and you danced around it beautifully.

[Kimsus]

Why hello Mr. Strawman, nice to see you made it to this discussion.

? :confused:

[Kiddz Korner]

While rachel's original owners stated she would never run against the boys, Rachel's new owners carefully selected races against a rather weak 3-year old male crowd last year. Injuries decimated the male group during her "run" and who the hell thought Mine That Bird was even a contender in the Derby? He showed what he is the remainder of the year: a nice, little horse who loves sloppy tracks but cannot beat the best of the best. Anyway, looking forward to Rachel and Zenyatta hooking up. I know Zenyatta will have to travel East because the pri-madonna can't/won't run on synthetic. Whatever. Will be nice to get Zenyatta at greater than 5/2 for the first time in 3 years. I don't know if Zenyatta will race the entire year but she is supposed to run through the summer. Let's see how "long" it takes Rachel to get ready. Funny thing was after the Eclipse Awards,Rachel's owner said she was behind in training. Then Asmussen came on and said she is fit and training well and ready to go. Who's lying and who's ducking?

[Kimsus]

While rachel's original owners stated she would never run against the boys, Rachel's new owners carefully selected races against a rather weak 3-year old male crowd last year. Injuries decimated the male group during her "run" and who the hell thought Mine That Bird was even a contender in the Derby? He showed what he is the remainder of the year: a nice, little horse who loves sloppy tracks but cannot beat the best of the best. Anyway, looking forward to Rachel and Zenyatta hooking up. I know Zenyatta will have to travel East because the pri-madonna can't/won't run on synthetic. Whatever. Will be nice to get Zenyatta at greater than 5/2 for the first time in 3 years. I don't know if Zenyatta will race the entire year but she is supposed to run through the summer. Let's see how "long" it takes Rachel to get ready. Funny thing was after the Eclipse Awards,Rachel's owner said she was behind in training. Then Asmussen came on and said she is fit and training well and ready to go. Who's lying and who's ducking?

I wonder what Jess Jacskon will do when Rachel is assigned equal weights to Zenyatta and if she loses her weight for sex advantage to males for her win in the Woody last yr, infact if she is that much faster than Zenyatta, it would be only fair if Zenyatta finally gets a weight advantage for a change from the HOY...

You know Jackson will cry no fair and conveniently invent an excuse.

[Kimsus]

Let's see how "long" it takes Rachel to get ready. Funny thing was after the Eclipse Awards,Rachel's owner said she was behind in training. Then Asmussen came on and said she is fit and training well and ready to go. Who's lying and who's ducking?

Great point, Zenyatta has been declared ready to run by her connections, Rachel has been rested since Sept 5, the longer this goes "her inactivity" the more I wonder about their intentions for keeping her out. Avoidence or they know she has already fired her best shot. If the latter is true than HOY or until sept 5 was an apropos award, and if Zenyatta continues to add to her resume as a 6 yr old including beating males and with a more ambitous campaign this yr Horse of the decade would be alot more meaning to historians than HOY. She would have done it for 4 seasons as opposed to 1.

[tzipi]

Yup, everyone knows whats going on with who somewhow and who would win what race for sure but they couldn't give you one winner on a card day after day :lol: :lol:

[Kimsus]

Yup, everyone knows whats going on with who somewhow and who would win what race for sure but they couldn't give you one winner on a card day after day :lol: :lol:

Hey Tzipi,
I'm curious you claim you like both horses, what do you think of the chances of Rachel against Zenyatta when they don't meet when Rachel loses her weight for age advantage against older? Do you think Rachel fans will still be confident? For Zenyatta after being saddled with highweight in the vast majority of her races against her own sex and rachel who got the benefit of weight for sex and age last year, this has to be a monumental handicapping shift for a horse that has been gone for almost 6 months and counting.

[FenceBored]

My question addressed to you was retorical, and you danced around it beautifully.

If the question was rhetorical it did not anticipate a response, so how could I have danced around it?

There is a difference between seeing that something can occur (an Eclipse off one race in the US, i.e. a BC win) and saying that something MUST occur (all BC winners should win the associated Eclipse award). Learn it, live it, love it.

[Nikki1997]

While rachel's original owners stated she would never run against the boys, Rachel's new owners carefully selected races against a rather weak 3-year old male crowd last year. Injuries decimated the male group during her "run" and who the hell thought Mine That Bird was even a contender in the Derby? He showed what he is the remainder of the year: a nice, little horse who loves sloppy tracks but cannot beat the best of the best. Anyway, looking forward to Rachel and Zenyatta hooking up. I know Zenyatta will have to travel East because the pri-madonna can't/won't run on synthetic. Whatever. Will be nice to get Zenyatta at greater than 5/2 for the first time in 3 years. I don't know if Zenyatta will race the entire year but she is supposed to run through the summer. Let's see how "long" it takes Rachel to get ready. Funny thing was after the Eclipse Awards,Rachel's owner said she was behind in training. Then Asmussen came on and said she is fit and training well and ready to go. Who's lying and who's ducking?

The bolded part is not quite true. Mr. Morrison said he wouldn't run Rachel in the TC, but running her against colts after the TC was a consideration.

The rest of your post, I agree with. I would like to add the criticisms and shots that Zenyatta's connections have taken regarding her being scratched because of safety concerns due to a sealed track in Kentucky have been unfair. Rachel didn't get on the track for 8 days because of the weather and the same safety concerns. I don't see any jabs and sarcasms directed towards her connections for making the same choices.

[tzipi]

Hey Tzipi,
I'm curious you claim you like both horses, what do you think of the chances of Rachel against Zenyatta when they don't meet when Rachel loses her weight for age advantage against older? Do you think Rachel fans will still be confident? For Zenyatta after being saddled with highweight in the vast majority of her races against her own sex and rachel who got the benefit of weight for sex and age last year, this has to be a monumental handicapping shift for a horse that has been gone for almost 6 months and counting.

Kimsus, it was just a fun joke in general about alot of posts I read on this thread. It wasn't about you. Umm I don't care because most people are just upset or making excuses ripping RA for winning HOY with her campaign. Yeah Zenny got highweight but it was against the same overmatched horses race after race. I'll be nervous with her now because Moss can't do the same this year. He has to hit top fieds and travel and a top dirt race elsewhere wont have mostly turf and polytrack horses. Also it depends what track Zens running at for me at least. RA whipped fields by double digit odds. So weight last year would'nt have mattered I think. But it all depends where the girls are going and what the fields are. I'll be nervous when both run. They are going to be in some great fields and will have to travel alot. But both will be the ones to beat! Going to be fun.
RA laying low for 5 months is cool with me. No big deal. Seen it done tons of times over the years from claimers to top class horses. Some need to run and some can win big off a 6+ month layoff coming in with some nice workouts. Funny, you never saw this talk when other world class horses took off for months and than came back to run full campaigns over the years. Just reaching for anything to pick on I guess.

[FenceBored]

Great point, Zenyatta has been declared ready to run by her connections, Rachel has been rested since Sept 5, the longer this goes "her inactivity" the more I wonder about their intentions for keeping her out. Avoidence or they know she has already fired her best shot. If the latter is true than HOY or until sept 5 was an apropos award, and if Zenyatta continues to add to her resume as a 6 yr old including beating males and with a more ambitous campaign this yr Horse of the decade would be alot more meaning to historians than HOY. She would have done it for 4 seasons as opposed to 1.

:sleeping: Inane speculation and deflection. :sleeping:

[Kimsus]

Kimsus, it was just a fun joke in general about alot of posts I read on this thread. It wasn't about you. Umm I don't care because most people are just upset or making excuses ripping RA for winning HOY with her campaign. Yeah Zenny got highweight but it was against the same overmatched horses race after race. I'll be nervous with her now because Moss can't do the same this year. He has to hit top fieds and travel and a top dirt race elsewhere wont have mostly turf and polytrack horses. Also it depends what track Zens running at for me at least. RA whipped fields by double digit odds. So weight last year would'nt have mattered I think. But it all depends where the girls are going and what the fields are. I'll be nervous when both run. They are going to be in some great fields and will have to travel alot. But both will be the ones to beat! Going to be fun.
RA laying low for 5 months is cool with me. No big deal. Seen it done tons of times over the years from claimers to top class horses. Some need to run and some can win big off a 6+ month layoff coming in with some nice workouts. Funny, you never saw this talk when other world class horses took off for months and than came back to run full campaigns over the years. Just reaching for anything to pick on I guess.

Don't misunderstand my post T, I don't take anything personal when it comes to the discussion of horseracing, I was just canvassing how fans/posters perceive a quizzable long layoff and now that Rachel will have to carry highweight in the majority of her races, whether one is a believer that weight is the big equalizer or not, it will be a big shift in handicapping races with her. Especially if she lines up without the benefit of 5 lbs with the race with Zenyatta that probably won't happen until later in the year if at all.

[Kimsus]

:sleeping: Inane speculation and deflection. :sleeping:

I would be alarmed the longer she is away from the races..whatever the reasons Feb will be mark her 6th month she has been away. Strange isn't it from a man(Jess) that was lauded last yr for a engineering a brilliant 3/4 year to now a no show for half a yr. We probably won't see her till late spring or early summer. The longer she is away the more questions arise, you follow racing you should know this.

[FenceBored]

I would be alarmed the longer she is away from the races..whatever the reasons Feb will be mark her 6th month she has been away. Strange isn't it from a man(Jess) that was lauded last yr for a engineering a brilliant 3/4 year to now a no show for half a yr. We probably won't see her till late spring or early summer. The longer she is away the more questions arise, you follow racing you should know this.

Yeah, yeah, right right right.:rolleyes:

[Kimsus]

Yeah, yeah, right right right.:rolleyes:

So let me get this right, after the Woody where her own connections were quoted as saying she came out the race gassed, she dissapears for now approaching 6 months, she goes from running as a 3 yr old to a 4 yr old much like Curlin had under the same trainer and in addition to losing her weight allowance. You are confident we will see the same horse and it never even entered your mind?

Nevermind... I'm used to you not addresing any questions headon.

[FenceBored]

It's nearly Feb 2010. Let's move on.

Honestly, this is an important teaching moment.

Jerry Moss put together a campaign for Zenyatta in 2008 which was a marvel, 6-6 including a win in the BC Ladies Classic, and even beat the reigning older female champion soundly. As the year ended he thought he could/should win HOY with Zenyatta based upon this campaign. He didn't.

For 2009, fresh off the perceived snub in the Eclipse voting, he maps out almost the exact same campaign. :bang:

This error should be prominently noted as an example of how NOT to manage a championship campaign.

[FenceBored]

So let me get this right, after the Woody where her own connections were quoted as saying she came out the race gassed, she dissapears for now approaching 6 months, she goes from running as a 3 yr old to a 4 yr old much like Curlin had under the same trainer and in addition to losing her weight allowance. You are confident we will see the same horse and it never even entered your mind?

Nevermind... I'm used to you not addresing any questions headon.

I don't know how Rachel will come back. I don't know how Zenyatta will come back. I don't know how Summer Bird will come back. I don't know how I Want Revenge will come back. I don't know how She Be Wild will come back. I don't know how Life is Sweet will come back. I don't know how Gio Ponti will come back (especially if he makes the trip to Dubai).

Aren't you the least bit worried that she might come back a new and improved Rachel who'll drink Zenyatta's milkshake from across the room? That's another possibility, you know.

The goal is the BC in Nov. at Churchill, with 5 to 6 races beforehand. I might sit down and map out a possible campaign for her, as I did last May (that wasn't far off). But they're taking their time to keep her fresh, just as Team Zenyatta wisely did last year. Zenny didn't enter a race before May 1 (and didn't work before Feb. 28th), so I see no reason to be worried about Rachel's progress at this moment.

This is just another of your deflections. This thread isn't about Rachel, it has nothing to do with Rachel. It's about Jerry Moss's staging of a championship campaign and his overreliance on the prestige of the Breeders' Cup.

[Kimsus]

I don't know how Rachel will come back. I don't know how Zenyatta will come back. QUOTE]

Aren't these 2 cirumstances very different? if you don't, you should know they are.

[QUOTE]The goal is the BC in Nov. at Churchill, with 5 to 6 races beforehand.

Ironic, you are blasting the same race campaign Zenyatta manuafctured last yr but are all too happy to accept for Rachel now...Brilliant hypocrisy dangled in with alot of misdirection. :rolleyes:

[tzipi]

Don't misunderstand my post T, I don't take anything personal when it comes to the discussion of horseracing, I was just canvassing how fans/posters perceive a quizzable long layoff and now that Rachel will have to carry highweight in the majority of her races, whether one is a believer that weight is the big equalizer or not, it will be a big shift in handicapping races with her. Especially if she lines up without the benefit of 5 lbs with the race with Zenyatta that probably won't happen until later in the year if at all.

Yeah I see your point but if she's running against girls that are way below her in the beginning to get legs under her than I don't think it'll matter. She beats them by double digit lengths anyway. If she's in against top males or top races,why would they pour weight on her? Maybe a little weight depending who's there but not tons in top races. She might get alot against overmatched girls.
Layoffs are layoffs. I've seen longer. Short or long. Not all horses are the saame. What because Zenyatta's working out, RA is in trouble?? I remember SKY BEAUTY losing the BC Distaff and taking off till early May with workouts coming into the race. She won by 4 first race back.
ARAZI took off for 5 months after his BC Juvenile and came back to win by 5. Something is not wrong because a horse runs a hard campaign and is resting during the dead winter months.

[Kimsus]

Yeah I see your point but if she's running against girls that are way below her in the beginning to get legs under her than I don't think it'll matter. She beats them by double digit lengths anyway. If she's in against top males or top races,why would they pour weight on her? Maybe a little weight depending who's there but not tons in top races. She might get alot against overmatched girls.
Layoffs are layoffs. I've seen longer. Short or long. Not all horses are the saame. What because Zenyatta's working out, RA is in trouble?? I remember SKY BEAUTY losing the BC Distaff and taking off till early May with workouts coming into the race. She won by 4 first race back.
ARAZI took off for 5 months after his BC Juvenile and came back to win by 5. Something is not wrong because a horse runs a hard campaign and is resting during the dead winter months.

I don't think weight is as much as an issue with overmatched opponents but when 2 horses are in the same ballpark, as a bettor I will usually side with the one who has proven they could carry the weight, in addition Steve Asmussen horses usually have a shorter drug..I mean shelf life, I would be very surprised Rachel will race beyond this year, when and if she resurfaces.

[tzipi]

I don't think weight is as much as an issue with overmatched opponents but when 2 horses are in the same ballpark, as a bettor I will usually side with the one who has proven they could carry the weight, in addition Steve Asmussen horses usually have a shorter drug..I mean shelf life, I would be very surprised Rachel will race beyond this year, when and if she resurfaces.

See your just making this into a I hate Rachel thing because HOY or her campaign or whatever. "If she resurfaces" Yeah about 75% of top class horses over the years(have listed some) have taken 4-5 months off to come back and dominate and run full campaign,but RA is different,right? She's done,right?
Tons and TONs of top 3yo have taken to weight on as 4yo's and dominated. It's so bad that your making RA layoff and weight on as a 4yo a NEW thing that no horse has ever done or won with?????

Where's your Zenyatta questions. I like her but hey what about:
1. Not being able to race against overmatched girls race after race and have an easy time on the body.
2. Getting off the closer favoring poly.
3. Travelling and not being able to relax at home all season.
4. Having to face males more than once and on dirt with dirt horses. Not "dirt" races with turf horses and poly horses.
Not going to be an easy season like last.

Why are you just questioning RA with things horses do ALL the time? Just mad at her or her season and HOY? Oh well.

[tzipi]

I would be very surprised Rachel will race beyond this year, when and if she resurfaces.

You do realize age is one thing and not a indicator of how many races you have run. She wont run after this year? You know how? So in a way your point is Zen is old and has run till old age and RA will retire after 4. Really? I thought they both have about the same ammount of races and RA could end up with more than Zen after they retire. W
What's their total career races after last year? Zen was 5 and RA was 3. It's easier to run at 5 or 6 when you have run just a few races every year.

[Kimsus]

See your just making this into a I hate Rachel thing because HOY or her campaign or whatever. "If she resurfaces" Yeah about 75% of top class horses over the years(have listed some) have taken 4-5 months off to come back and dominate and run full campaign,but RA is different,right? She's done,right?
Tons and TONs of top 3yo have taken to weight on as 4yo's and dominated. It's so bad that your making RA layoff and weight on as a 4yo a NEW thing that no horse has ever done or won with?????

Where's your Zenyatta questions. I like her but hey what about:
1. Not being able to race against overmatched girls race after race and have an easy time on the body.
2. Getting off the closer favoring poly.
3. Travelling and not being able to relax at home all season.
4. Having to face males more than once and on dirt with dirt horses. Not "dirt" races with turf horses and poly horses.
Not going to be an easy season like last.

Why are you just questioning RA with things horses do ALL the time? Just mad at her or her season and HOY? Oh well.

Zenyatta's has yet to prove she can beat a grade 1 field of males over dirt, that is basically all that remains for her to prove, as I said earler this week I doubt they brought her back to win the Clement Hirsch again, if they did which I highly doubt she may as well been retired.

[tzipi]

Zenyatta's has yet to prove she can beat a grade 1 field of males over dirt, that is basically all that remains for her to prove, as I said earler this week I doubt they brought her back to win the Clement Hirsch again, if they did which I highly doubt she may as well been retired.

That's what I mean. They BOTH have things to do this year. It's going to be awesome to watch.

[FenceBored]

I don't know how Rachel will come back. I don't know how Zenyatta will come back.

Aren't these 2 cirumstances very different? if you don't, you should know they are.

Different, sure, but how do we know how any horse will come back, really? We know don't until they run, and even then some take a race or two to get back on top. Wait and see. Zenyatta has not been given a serious rest, Rachel has. If it comes down to it next November, and Zenyatta has not been given a freshener, fatigue may be a potential problem for Zenyatta, not for Rachel.

Ironic, you are blasting the same race campaign Zenyatta manuafctured last yr but are all too happy to accept for Rachel now...Brilliant hypocrisy dangled in with alot of misdirection. :rolleyes:

Rachel can't run the same campaign this year, she's not 3. :confused: The only race she can rerun is the Woodward.

As for the number of races, even though 6 or 7 is more than 5 (really, trust me, I passed 1st grade :jump: ) the problem with Zenyatta's campaign was more which races pre-BC, not the number. The number of races, and their timing was great to get Zenyatta to the BC fresh and ready to go. But, the non-challenging nature of her pre-BC campaign left her with too much to do, much like Mike Smith's ride in the Clement Hirsch. Only this time Zenyatta couldn't overcome the deficit. Before Zenyatta ran in the Milady Rachel had already upped the ante with her Oaks-Preakness double. Moss/Shireffs stood pat. The day Zenyatta carried the never-before-seen-ureal 129lbs, Rachel set a new stakes, and stakes win margin in the Mother Goose. Moss/Shireffs stood pat. The week before Zenyatta struggled in the Clement Hirsch, Rachel beat the Belmont winner in the Haskell. Moss/Shireffs stood pat. As the time for the last BC prep rolled around you'd think they might have gotten a hint from Rachel's Woodward win, a tiny clue, that they needed to spice things up, but no, they ran in Lady's Secret not the Goodwood. Moss/Shireffs stood pat. Twas the nature of the campaign not just the number that was the problem.

[delayjf]

RA laying low for 5 months is cool with me. No big deal. Seen it done tons of times over the years from claimers to top class horses. Some need to run and some can win big off a 6+ month layoff coming in with some nice workouts. Funny, you never saw this talk when other world class horses took off for months and than came back to run full campaigns over the years. Just reaching for anything to pick on I guess.

It's all speculation, but we shall see. It will be interesting to see where they enter her first. I don't think they want to confront Zenyatta off a 6 month layoff - and I don't blame them. My guess is they are going to tip toe around Zenyatta until she regains her old form - I hope she makes it back.

[tzipi]

It's all speculation, but we shall see. It will be interesting to see where they enter her first. I don't think they want to confront Zenyatta off a 6 month layoff - and I don't blame them. My guess is they are going to tip toe around Zenyatta until she regains her old form - I hope she makes it back.

:D Yeah tip toe. People forget RA was the one with the aggressive campaign last year. Zenny has never faced males or horses like RA on dirt,so let's not jump the gun on Zen yet. I'll be a bit nervous till that first top field dirt race is over.
How many horses do I have to list that had 5-6 month layoffs to comeback to dominate in history? Winter layoffs are the most common thing in racing for top horses. So funny this is being portrayed as something new in racing for a horse.

[bisket]

Hey Tzipi,
I'm curious you claim you like both horses, what do you think of the chances of Rachel against Zenyatta when they don't meet when Rachel loses her weight for age advantage against older? Do you think Rachel fans will still be confident? For Zenyatta after being saddled with highweight in the vast majority of her races against her own sex and rachel who got the benefit of weight for sex and age last year, this has to be a monumental handicapping shift for a horse that has been gone for almost 6 months and counting.
zenyatta high weight in most races? did you even read this post?
this post # 51 in this thread
moss lost the hoy award for zenyatta in may. rachel won the preakness, and zenyatta won the milady handicap toting 129lbs. next on the schedule out west would be the clement hirsch HANDICAP at delmar where zenyatta figured to be given 130lbs. moss was quoted as saying after the race that he wasn't looking forward to zenyatta having to carry that much weight, and maybe they would look elsewhere for her next race. this is when all the hysteria about a zen and rachel matchup started. a few days later it was announced that the cal racing board had decided to not allow handicap races in graded competition, and the hirsch was changed to a weight for age STAKES race. so when forced to maybe race zenyatta against a foe that just may beat her, california decided to give moss an out, and he took it. zenyatta's cakewalk to the cup was arranged. what did rachel's connections do when it was evident that she was much better than the other fillies and mares. they found harder challenges for her, and made the summer and fall enjoyable for race fans and also themselves. the moss' and all the fans in california that were hoodwinked by the tracks in california can cry all they want. the right horse won hoy without a doubt. one race doesn't make a champion, and doing this would weaken the breed even more than it is now. so i guess all the cal racing fans are just gonna have to take this one for the team because their tracks and the moss' brought this on themselves!!

[PaceAdvantage]

I can practically guarantee one thing.

If Rachel races against and beats Zenyatta, I doubt we'll see the likes of Kimsus around PaceAdvantage ever again. That's basically the track record of "new" registrants who take these kinds of hard line stances in heated debates such as this one. I've seen it before in my 10 years of doing this...so don't be surprised...

[tzipi]

Next on the schedule out west would be the clement hirsch HANDICAP at delmar where zenyatta figured to be given 130lbs. moss was quoted as saying after the race that he wasn't looking forward to zenyatta having to carry that much weight, and maybe they would look elsewhere for her next race. this is when all the hysteria about a zen and rachel matchup started. a few days later it was announced that the cal racing board had decided to not allow handicap races in graded competition, and the hirsch was changed to a weight for age STAKES race. so when forced to maybe race zenyatta against a foe that just may beat her, california decided to give moss an out, and he took it.

I did not know that. Well Kimsus should just be quiet with the weight then.

But anyway Kimsus is just here to pick on RA because of his or her frustrations. I mean the debates are fun but this is just getting so ridiculous. He questions RA running this year or in good spots. Guess he missed out on what Jackson did with Curlin and RA in spots. But says nothing of Zenyatta like she has run against everyone all over and ran in the toughest spots every race. Geez :rolleyes:
kimsus thinks a 5 month layoff in racing over the winter is a new shocking thing in racing,no matter how many examples are given on top horses over history taking more than 5 months over the winter to rest and then come back to dominate.

[letswastemoney]

I've never considered weight to be that big of a factor unless it's a 10 lbs difference. I assume in any race RA and Zenyatta meet, they'll be weighted evenly.

[Kimsus]

I can practically guarantee one thing.

If Rachel races against and beats Zenyatta, I doubt we'll see the likes of Kimsus around PaceAdvantage ever again. That's basically the track record of "new" registrants who take these kinds of hard line stances in heated debates such as this one. I've seen it before in my 10 years of doing this...so don't be surprised...

The likes of...? Look this is discussion, agree or disagree with what I say the things I say are truthful, when I say things like Horse till Sept 5 instead of HOY. It's not inaccurate. Alot of things I say are not sugarcoated and I'm sure some find that entertaining and on the rare occasion my comments may rub people the wrong way. You can't please everyone. Either way I am also sure some enjoy having someone here tell it like it is instead of "gee look how wonderful Rachel or Zenyatta are" Golly gee..

By the way your edit button is set much too short at less than 1 min, if someone wants to make a simple spelling error edit they cannot do so without looking like they edited the content. Other forums are much more liberal. Anyway that's my cent and a half.

[tzipi]

I would be alarmed the longer she is away from the races..whatever the reasons Feb will be mark her 6th month she has been away. Strange isn't it from a man(Jess) that was lauded last yr for a engineering a brilliant 3/4 year to now a no show for half a yr. We probably won't see her till late spring or early summer. The longer she is away the more questions arise, you follow racing you should know this.

Zenyatta was off for 7 months last year before racing. Did you write all over how she was done or something's wrong? :D It's just soooo crazy.

[bisket]

the only remedy tracks have to discourage owners from running horses continually against the same horses over and over and collecting a check is to load them down with weight. i certainly don't blame moss for not wanting his mare to carry 130lbs, but this is the way the game is played. it forces owners to go and look for different competition or race with the weight. although california was desperate for the gate that zenyatta would bring. things were so bad in california that in june they had neglected to pay the stewards for 2 months. so i'm sure they probably laid it on pretty thick to get moss to stay in town as apposed to leaving and racing rachel. california has been walking a tightrope all year, but these were the choices they made in june that came back to bite them in the rear in january. heres a link to jay hovdey's blog at drf. on the left hand side of the page click on the link for his archives for june 2009, and read the "heavy duty" entry
http://hovdeyblog.drf.com/hovdeyblog/
there is several entries about the rachel and zenyatta matchup because it was a hot topic at the time. it was a week or so after this "heavy duty" entry when the cal racing board made the announcement about not having handicap races anymore in graded competition. hopefully a more informed fan will be a little more likely to understand why things turned out like they did. i still am of the opinion that zenyatta will beat rachel when they meet. once again the right horse won hoy.

[PaceAdvantage]

The likes of...? Look this is discussion, agree or disagree with what I say the things I say are truthful, when I say things like Horse till Sept 5 instead of HOY. It's not inaccurate. Alot of things I say are not sugarcoated and I'm sure some find that entertaining and on the rare occasion my comments may rub people the wrong way. You can't please everyone. Either way I am also sure some enjoy having someone here tell it like it is instead of "gee look how wonderful Rachel or Zenyatta are" Golly gee..

By the way your edit button is set much too short at less than 1 min, if someone wants to make a simple spelling error edit they cannot do so without looking like they edited the content. Other forums are much more liberal. Anyway that's my cent and a half.I also call them like I see them, and I'd be very surprised if you show your face around here after Rachel meets and beats Zenyatta. I could be wrong. At least you know that I'll definitely be here no matter what happens.

And my reply to you had nothing to do with "honesty" or "telling it like it is." My reply had more to do with what I consider the increasing ridiculousness of your posts as they pertain to Rachel/Zenyatta. Your prognostications are getting more far fetched with each passing reply.

And as for the edit button...I believe you have at least one minute to edit the post without it saying "edited by..." But I'll look into it...thanks for the suggestion...

[Kimsus]

I also call them like I see them, and I'd be very surprised if you show your face around here after Rachel meets and beats Zenyatta. I could be wrong. At least you know that I'll definitely be here no matter what happens.

And my reply to you had nothing to do with "honesty" or "telling it like it is." My reply had more to do with what I consider the increasing ridiculousness of your posts as they pertain to Rachel/Zenyatta. Your prognostications are getting more far fetched with each passing reply.

And as for the edit button...I believe you have at least one minute to edit the post without it saying "edited by..." But I'll look into it...thanks for the suggestion...

My only pronostication pertaining to Rachel and Zenyatta is if these 2 meet in a race next year, I would go with Zenyatta. One is I have great respect in Sheriff's as a Trainer that he will not put her in a position to lose and 2 I believe her to be the better horse. I don't know why that would be ridiculous. Rachel may have had a better overall year in 09 but that doesn't mean she is as unbeatable to some or certainly to me.

Thanks for looking into the edit time, and by the way you run a damn good site regardless if we agree or not.

[ExoticDancer]

Rachel has one of the greatest years ever by any horse in recent history and many still think Zenyatta can beat her on a surface Z has raced just one on ? Strange. :bang:

[Spalding No!]

Rachel has one of the greatest years ever by any horse in recent history and many still think Zenyatta can beat her on a surface Z has raced just one on ? Strange. :bang:

If we were talking about a matchup between the two last year in the fall, this would be a much more valid observation.

However, this being 2010, and RA not even breezing on a regular basis, Zenyatta clearly holds the high ground at this point.

I think its reasonable for people to be favoring Zenyatta in a matchup right now regardless of race conditions.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know why that would be ridiculous.The ridiculous part, in my opinion, is the current speculation that something is wrong with her based on her time off...quite frankly, I don't know why you would expect her to be coming back already...it's a very long time to the Breeders' Cup in November...why should they start racing her now? What would be the point?

But then again, AndyMays recently posted a Bruno DeJulio newsletter where he claimed there are rumors out of Kentucky that she is already retired...

She's scheduled to work this week...if she doesn't, I suppose that would be a very bad sign.

[FenceBored]

My only pronostication pertaining to Rachel and Zenyatta is if these 2 meet in a race next year, I would go with Zenyatta. One is I have great respect in Sheriff's as a Trainer that he will not put her in a position to lose and 2 I believe her to be the better horse. I don't know why that would be ridiculous. Rachel may have had a better overall year in 09 but that doesn't mean she is as unbeatable to some or certainly to me.

Thanks for looking into the edit time, and by the way you run a damn good site regardless if we agree or not.

Ah, so you admit that Sheriff's stagemanaged those early races last year to make Zenyatta look good.

Anyway, the Santa Anita ads are proof, solid proof, irrefutable proof that Zenyatta is racing this year because she's infertile. Why else would those ads say "from Seabiscuit to Zenyatta," i.e. from one racing star would couldn't reproduce to another. Clear as day.
:D

[ExoticDancer]

If we were talking about a matchup between the two last year in the fall, this would be a much more valid observation.

However, this being 2010, and RA not even breezing on a regular basis, Zenyatta clearly holds the high ground at this point.

I think its reasonable for people to be favoring Zenyatta in a matchup right now regardless of race conditions.

Zenyatta doesn't have the high ground or any other ground but plastic until she beats G1 winning males on dirt. She seems fit and ready why doesn't she run in the Donn? Quality Road would LOVE to see her on dirt.

[Dahoss9698]

The ridiculous part, in my opinion, is the current speculation that something is wrong with her based on her time off...quite frankly, I don't know why you would expect her to be coming back already...it's a very long time to the Breeders' Cup in November...why should they start racing her now? What would be the point?

But then again, AndyMays recently posted a Bruno DeJulio newsletter where he claimed there are rumors out of Kentucky that she is already retired...

She's scheduled to work this week...if she doesn't, I suppose that would be a very bad sign.

Rachel breezed 4 furlongs in 52 seconds flat this morning according the the DRF.

[Spalding No!]

Zenyatta doesn't have the high ground or any other ground but plastic until she beats G1 winning males on dirt. She seems fit and ready why doesn't she run in the Donn? Quality Road would LOVE to see her on dirt.

Why does Zenyatta have to do something spectacular before squaring off against Rachel Alexandra? You seem to be making the same old 2009 HOY argument which means nothing when talking about an actual head-to-head matchup on the racetrack.

Zenyatta has the high ground exactly because she is "fit and ready". Rachel Alexandra is behind the eight ball not only in terms of conditioning but also form. As alluded to elsewhere, who's to say she'll necessarily come back the same?

The belated start is unfortunate, because now Team Zenyatta has a perfectly legit excuse to hide behind another cozy campaign. Instead of "the Breeder's Cup is at Santa Anita again this year so why ship?" its "Rachel Alexandra isn't ready yet so why squeeze the lemon dry?"

If Rachel Alexandra doesn't get into full gear until early summer (ie they go for a couple of soft spots to start the year), I think the most daring move will see from Team Zenyatta is a start in the Apple Blossom.

[Kimsus]

Ah, so you admit that Sheriff's stagemanaged those early races last year to make Zenyatta look good.

Anyway, the Santa Anita ads are proof, solid proof, irrefutable proof that Zenyatta is racing this year because she's infertile. Why else would those ads say "from Seabiscuit to Zenyatta," i.e. from one racing star would couldn't reproduce to another. Clear as day.
:D

I didn't say that at all, let me clarify it by saying John Sheriff's has great numbers during the last decade, not only is he a superb horseman, he is an excellent caretaker of horses, he would never run a horse to fuel his own ego. By that I mean if Zenyatta maintains her good form he will continue to run her. You have to know he had alot to do with her coming back this year. If Sheriff's didn't like the way she was training, you can bet the Moss's would have listened to their Trainer. Bottom line is whenever she steps on the track I know Sheriff's will have her ready to run her race. There are very few trainers I put in his category.

[PhantomOnTour]

Good points Spalding. I fall into the Rachel camp, but your remark about fitness and 'coming back the same' are relevant.

Rachel ran at age 2 and had a very hard 3yr old campaign...this had better be one rugged gal. Zen on the other hand didnt debut until Nov of her 3yr old year, and only ran twice...more gas in the tank now?

Anyone can see that Rachel was gassed at the end of the Woodward, and I think it was wise to shelve her for the year. However, how many brilliant 3yr olds (girls especially) come back the same at age 4? I have no data, but would be interested to see a study on, lets say, multiple Gr1 winning 3yr old fillies with 7 or so races that year and multiple Beyers over 100...how did they do after that season?

[Spalding No!]

I didn't say that at all, let me clarify it by saying John Sheriff's has great numbers during the last decade, not only is he a superb horseman, he is an excellent caretaker of horses, he would never run a horse to fuel his own ego. By that I mean if Zenyatta maintains her good form he will continue to run her. You have to know he had alot to do with her coming back this year. If Sheriff's didn't like the way she was training, you can bet the Moss's would have listened to their Trainer. Bottom line is whenever she steps on the track I know Sheriff's will have her ready to run her race. There are very few trainers I put in his category.

Maybe strictly in the case of Zenyatta, but if your praise is supposed to be a sweeping generalization, then a lot of this is fluff and conjecture.

His handling of Tiago last year bordered on the ridiculous.

[Spalding No!]

Good points Spalding. I fall into the Rachel camp, but your remark about fitness and 'coming back the same' are relevant.

Rachel ran at age 2 and had a very hard 3yr old campaign...this had better be one rugged gal. Zen on the other hand didnt debut until Nov of her 3yr old year, and only ran twice...more gas in the tank now?

Anyone can see that Rachel was gassed at the end of the Woodward, and I think it was wise to shelve her for the year. However, how many brilliant 3yr olds (girls especially) come back the same at age 4? I have no data, but would be interested to see a study on, lets say, multiple Gr1 winning 3yr old fillies with 7 or so races that year and multiple Beyers over 100...how did they do after that season?

It's sort of ironic that someone dug up that old thread on Rachel Alexandra before she had even won the Kentucky Oaks, in which she was compared to Genuine Risk.

Hopefully she can surpass that one's 4yo campaign (and unfortunate broodmare record).

[tzipi]

Anyone can see that Rachel was gassed at the end of the Woodward

You can check on the "Where should they meet" poll thread and watch the video. She out gallops everyone else and her body motion is very strong. She was rested because of the long campaign. That was a tough race for a 3yo filly and capped off a long campaign. Let her rest. Zenny rested for 7 months last year. Didn't hear a bad thing about it? Hmm

[PhantomOnTour]

You can check on the "Where should they meet" poll thread and watch the video. She out gallops everyone else and her body motion is very strong. She was rested because of the long campaign. That was a tough race for a 3yo filly and capped off a long campaign. Let her rest. Zenny rested for 7 months last year. Didn't hear a bad thing about it? Hmm
Thats all I said. She had a tough campaign. You say she galloped out ahead of the others but then say it was a tough race for a 3yo filly. I know, a tough campaign ending with a tough race left her tired.

Again, I am in the Rachel camp when it comes to HOTY and a head to head with Zen, but one MUST worry how she'll rebound from last year. Would still love to see a study like the one I described above.

[tzipi]

Thats all I said. She had a tough campaign. You say she galloped out ahead of the others but then say it was a tough race for a 3yo filly. I know, a tough campaign ending with a tough race left her tired.

Again, I am in the Rachel camp when it comes to HOTY and a head to head with Zen, but one MUST worry how she'll rebound from last year. Would still love to see a study like the one I described above.

I don't know. I don't worry. So many class horses come back to run the same. It's all about talent. Inside Information ran a dominant 3yo season and came back as a 4yo to run just as good. Sky Beauty the same and many more. Yeah some lesser horses fall off I think or ones who got injured but it seems there's such a negative push towards RA because of who she is and what she's won. I mean 5 month layoff is brought up everywhere around the forum as a bad sign and that she's done BUT NONE of them are mentioning Zenyatta was off for 7 months last year! Then it's, well will she run in tough spots. Hmmm who ran what campaign last year? I don't get it but I guess we'll wait and see.

[Spalding No!]

I don't know. I don't worry. So many class horses come back to run the same. It's all about talent. Inside Information ran a dominant 3yo season and came back as a 4yo to run just as good. Sky Beauty the same and many more. Yeah some lesser horses fall off I think or ones who got injured but it seems there's such a negative push towards RA because of who she is and what she's won. I mean 5 month layoff is brought up everywhere around the forum as a bad sign and that she's done BUT NONE of them are mentioning Zenyatta was off for 7 months last year! Then it's, well will she run in tough spots. Hmmm who ran what campaign last year? I don't get it but I guess we'll wait and see.

None of those fillies you mentioned had a campaign as tough as Rachel Alexandra. Inside Information got dusted in her only championship quality start in '94 as a 3yo and went to the sidelines afterwards.

You'd be hard pressed to find a single filly in history that had an even remotely comparable campaign to Rachel Alexandra that won out the way she did. There are several that tried:

Davona Dale
Althea
Life's Magic
Winning Colors
Meadow Star
Lite Light
Serena's Song
Rags To Riches

Most of those were mere shadows of their former selves afterwards.

[tzipi]

None of those fillies you mentioned had a campaign as tough as Rachel Alexandra. Inside Information got dusted in her only championship quality start in '94 as a 3yo and went to the sidelines afterwards.

You'd be hard pressed to find a single filly in history that had an even remotely comparable campaign to Rachel Alexandra that won out the way she did. There are several that tried:

Davona Dale
Althea
Life's Magic
Winning Colors
Meadow Star
Lite Light
Serena's Song
Rags To Riches

Most of those were mere shadows of their former selves afterwards.

Yeah I've said numerous times that Rach had a campaign that basically no 3yo filly has done. That's why top voters gave her HOY. My point was top class horses have been just as good in their 4yo season as their 3yo season. Just seems alot of people are so negative with her with made up things. Just as I said, people pick on the 5 month layoff but no one said the same about Zens 7 month layoff last year? Hmmm

[Spalding No!]

Yeah I've said numerous times that Rach had a campaign that basically no 3yo filly has done. That's why top voters gave her HOY. My point was top class horses have been just as good in their 4yo season as their 3yo season. Just seems alot of people are so negative with her with made up things. Just as I said, people pick on the 5 month layoff but no one said the same about Zens 7 month layoff last year? Hmmm

There's a couple of reasons for this. Zenyatta arguably has never busted a gut the way Rachel Alexandra did, definitely not in her final race of the year. Also, given the connections, people anticipated a very light campaign from Zenyatta last year.

On the other hand, people might have had it in their heads that since Rachel Alexandra bowed out relatively early in 2009, she would be ready to go by the first of this year.

[tzipi]

There's a couple of reasons for this. Zenyatta arguably has never busted a gut the way Rachel Alexandra did, definitely not in her final race of the year. Also, given the connections, people anticipated a very light campaign from Zenyatta last year.

On the other hand, people might have had it in their heads that since Rachel Alexandra bowed out relatively early in 2009, she would be ready to go by the first of this year.

I don't know, I feel fine about it. She just had a work in January. Alot of top class horses rest all winter. I dont think they are going to race her so early this year. Start later and run till November. JMO

[bisket]

If we were talking about a matchup between the two last year in the fall, this would be a much more valid observation.

However, this being 2010, and RA not even breezing on a regular basis, Zenyatta clearly holds the high ground at this point.

I think its reasonable for people to be favoring Zenyatta in a matchup right now regardless of race conditions.
lets get something straight if they would have met last year i still think zenyatta would have won. she's faster.

[Spalding No!]

lets get something straight if they would have met last year i still think zenyatta would have won. she's faster.

By what standards or methods have you determined definitively that she's "faster"? Beyers or other speed figures? Track/stakes record performances? Competition faced? Number of times hit with the whip?

[delayjf]

You'd be hard pressed to find a single filly in history that had an even remotely comparable campaign to Rachel Alexandra that won out the way she did. There are several that tried:

Winning Colors campaign was tougher than RA - she actually ran in every triple crown race against horses much tougher than RA ever faced.

[Spalding No!]

Winning Colors campaign was tougher than RA - she actually ran in every triple crown race against horses much tougher than RA ever faced.

Yes, but she lost several races.

[McSock]

Rachel is a Horse of the Year in the United States.

Zenyatta is a Breeder's Cup World Champion.

Both are pretty nice trophies.

One was won by ballot.

One was won by racing.

I place more value on the latter.

So well stated. Horse imput not human, I like it

[Spalding No!]

Horse imput not human, I like it

More like horse output (ie horse sh!t).

One is like Employee of the Year.

The other is Employee of the Month.

One is a plaque on the wall.

The other is a bumper sticker on a parent's car.

[delayjf]

Yes, Because she was facing tougher competition, which means she had a tougher campaign.

[tzipi]

Awesome Again was BC CHAMPION!

So I guess SKIP AWAY got some stupid ballot win and it really meant nothing about his year or talent :lol: :lol: :lol:

[bisket]

By what standards or methods have you determined definitively that she's "faster"? Beyers or other speed figures? Track/stakes record performances? Competition faced? Number of times hit with the whip?
if you suck up to me for a month i might tell ya :p

[Spalding No!]

Yes, Because she was facing tougher competition, which means she had a tougher campaign.

I didn't say the campaign wasn't tougher. Not that that means that Winning Colors had a better season in 1988 than Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

Also, just to be clear, none of this has to do with the point trying to be made.

Winning Colors was brought up because in fact she was toast after a very demanding 1988, evidence that it is quite plausible for Rachel Alexandra, who showed up in every race, to not come back the same either.

[Spalding No!]

if you suck up to me for a month i might tell ya :p

And miss out on teeing off on some of your non-Zenyatta based absurdities?

No deal.

[GaryG]

IWinning Colors was brought up because in fact she was toast after a very demanding 1988, evidence that it is quite plausible for Rachel Alexandra, who showed up in every race, to not come back the same either.Winning Colors was trained by DWL, the king of the child prodigies.

[Dan H]

.... horse sh!t ...

I certainly respect your penchant for animal feces, but ...

They held a race to crown a Breeder's Cup champion.

They held a vote to crown a Horse of the Year.

What part of that is not true?

[tzipi]

I certainly respect your penchant for animal feces, but ...

They held a race to crown a Breeder's Cup champion.

They held a vote to crown a Horse of the Year.

What part of that is not true?

Well you have to run a good campaign and dominate it to be crowned HOY. They just dont put names in the hats and vote which name is the coolest. You have to RACE win HOY last time I checked :D

Also I heard NO uproar when undefeated Awesome Again won the BC Classic but Skip Away won HOY in a landslide. Funny how things change over time. No one trashed Skippy or said Awesome Again was the champion over him :D

[Dan H]

Well you have to run a good campaign and dominate it to be crowned HOY.

I''m pretty sure you only need more votes than other horses to win HOY.

[tzipi]

I''m pretty sure you only need more votes than other horses to win HOY.

Yeah and I'm pretty sure you have to race to win HOY. You have to run a good campaign and dominate races during the whole year.

Plus again why did I near NO talk about Awesome Again getting robbed of HOY or that he was the real Champion over Skip Away after going undefeated and winning the BC Classic? Hmm funny how things change.

[Spalding No!]

I certainly respect your penchant for animal feces, but ...

That's real interesting, cuz you're the one who likes to smear the walls of this thread with it.

They held a race to crown a Breeder's Cup champion.

They held a vote to crown a Horse of the Year.

What part of that is not true?

I didn't say any of your superficial facts were untrue. However, your logic and subsequent implications are preposterous at best.

[FenceBored]

Yes, Because she was facing tougher competition, which means she had a tougher campaign.

So, Winning Colors lost "because she was facing tougher competition." I guess that proves that Zenyatta hasn't faced tough competition, since she hasn't lost.

Whoa boy, this ones a lulu.

[Kimsus]

So, Winning Colors lost "because she was facing tougher competition." I guess that proves that Zenyatta hasn't faced tough competition, since she hasn't lost.

Whoa boy, this ones a lulu.

You do realize for every criticism you take offence to when it comes to your "horse crush" Rachel, you have 2 more for Zenyatta. You referenced the word "Rachel haters", I'm curious what adjective would you call yourself? Zen basher? From the time I have been here your posts are so anti-Zenyatta slanted that I find it hard to take you at your word. I will say this you do entertain me with the psychology of your posts, mystifyingly biased as they are.

By the way I wrote this with a smile on my face and it was not a personal attack on you.

But in all honesty how can anyone take you seriously when it comes to anything you say about Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta when all your posts favor 1.

[FenceBored]

You do realize for every criticism you take offence to when it comes to your "horse crush" Rachel, you have 2 more for Zenyatta. You referenced the word "Rachel haters", I'm curious what adjective would you call yourself? Zen basher? From the time I have been here your posts are so anti-Zenyatta slanted that I find it hard to take you at your word. I will say this you do entertain me with the psychology of your posts, mystifyingly biased as they are.

Realist is the term I'd prefer. :cool:

By the way I wrote this with a smile on my face and it was not a personal attack on you.

But in all honesty how can anyone take you seriously when it comes to anything you say about Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta when all your posts favor 1.

Because I have truth on my side? :)

The issue is not whether I favor one or the other. There are currently a couple of different threads with arguments about which long retired horse would be other long retired horses (as there often are around here). People are defending their particular champion and pointing out flaws in the others. Wow, what a concept. Should we not take any of these posters seriously because they favor one horse or another?

I like them both (I've got the Zenyatta, a Living Legend DVD sitting right next to me), but obviously prefer Rachel. The issue is whether what I say tracks with reality. If it never does, then by all means ignore me. If it at least sometimes does, then you'll just have to use your wits.

[delayjf]

So, Winning Colors lost "because she was facing tougher competition." I guess that proves that Zenyatta hasn't faced tough competition, since she hasn't lost.

Yes that's right and Zenyatta beat the best field put together in 2009. The comparison was about weither or not RA campaign was tougher than Winning Colors. I think running in 4 grade 1 races against males like Risen Star, Seeking the Gold, Forty Niner, and competing in all the triple crown races - Not to mention running against another great filly Personal Ensign, is a tougher campaign than Rachel Alexandra's. Oh yes, and Winning Colors RAN in the Breeders Cup.

[tzipi]

Yes that's right and Zenyatta beat the best field put together in 2009.

Shows how bad 2009 was. Not against Zenyatta but a DIRT race that was not even on dirt but on polyturf that had mostly turf horses and horses who hadn't won grade 1's was the best field in 2009.
I saw people listing Colonel John as an example of competiton. The horse hadn't won a dirt race in like 17 months! Zenny beat home a horse who would've ran in the Turf Classic if the BC was at Belmont or CD,etc.

[FenceBored]

Yes that's right and Zenyatta beat the best field put together in 2009. The comparison was about weither or not RA campaign was tougher than Winning Colors. I think running in 4 grade 1 races against males like Risen Star, Seeking the Gold, Forty Niner, and competing in all the triple crown races - Not to mention running against another great filly Personal Ensign, is a tougher campaign than Rachel Alexandra's. Oh yes, and Winning Colors RAN in the Breeders Cup.

:sleeping: Breeders' Cup :jump:, Breeders' Cup :jump:, Breeders' Cup :jump:. :sleeping:

It must be sad for you knowing that majority of knowledgable voters don't share your obsession with the BC.

[delayjf]

I'm not obsessed with the Breeders Cup, it was just another example of how much tougher Winning Color's campaign was as compared to RA. I maybe wrong, but RA may have made history as the only uninjured HOY to not race beyond Aug.

[Dahoss9698]

I maybe wrong, but RA may have made history as the only uninjured HOY to not race beyond Aug.

You are wrong. The Woodward was in September. Holy Bull was shut down after winning the Woodward, uninjured, and also won the HOY.

[FenceBored]

I'm not obsessed with the Breeders Cup, it was just another example of how much tougher Winning Color's campaign was as compared to RA. I maybe wrong, but RA may have made history as the only uninjured HOY to not race beyond Aug.

Sure you are. Zenyatta did this in the BC, and Winning Colors ran in the BC. When pressed on anything related to Zenny, the fallback position is BC. That, my friend, is obsession.

[delayjf]

Ok, I stand corrected RA raced in Sept. BUT Holy Bull beat a very talented field in the Woodward by five lengths, and was 2-0 against the 94 BC champion - Concern. Can Rachel say that??

[Dahoss9698]

Ok, I stand corrected RA raced in Sept. BUT Holy Bull beat a very talented field in the Woodward by five lengths, and was 2-0 against the 94 BC champion - Concern. Can Rachel say that??

Really grasping at straws huh? There really is no but. You thought something and were wrong. Holy Bull is an example of a uninjured horse whose connections decided to skip the BC, and also won HOY. Rachel Alexandra is another example.

What does who Holy Bull beat or lengths beat have to do with anything? If you want we can go over who Rachel beat last year and what they went on to do,or did before she beat them, but hasn't that subject been discussed enough?

[Spalding No!]

I'm not obsessed with the Breeders Cup, it was just another example of how much tougher Winning Color's campaign was as compared to RA. I maybe wrong, but RA may have made history as the only uninjured HOY to not race beyond Aug.

You're taking this completely the wrong way. No one said Rachel Alexandra had a tougher campaign than Winning Colors. No direct comparison was trying to be made, either.

[keithw84]

I am a fan of both horses, and while these threads are kind of fun, some of these arguments are just ridiculous or pointless.

Yes, by definition, HOTY is decided only by votes... but those votes are based on what happens on the track. It is a reasonable way to try to encapsulate one season in a measurable and comparable way. If you'd rather use beaten lengths, graded earnings, speed figures, or performance in one race, fine, but don't pretend the basis of the Eclipse awards is arbitrary.

The color commentary on Rachel vs. Holy Bull is interesting but it could just as easily be turned around: In the Woodward, Rachel survived a duel with a Belmont Stakes winner (and only horse not named Big Brown to win a race in which Big Brown was entered), and she outlasted the horse who defeated Einstein in the Stephen Foster handicap.

[bisket]

I am a fan of both horses, and while these threads are kind of fun, some of these arguments are just ridiculous or pointless.

Yes, by definition, HOTY is decided only by votes... but those votes are based on what happens on the track. It is a reasonable way to try to encapsulate one season in a measurable and comparable way. If you'd rather use beaten lengths, graded earnings, speed figures, or performance in one race, fine, but don't pretend the basis of the Eclipse awards is arbitrary.

The color commentary on Rachel vs. Holy Bull is interesting but it could just as easily be turned around: In the Woodward, Rachel survived a duel with a Belmont Stakes winner (and only horse not named Big Brown to win a race in which Big Brown was entered), and she outlasted the horse who defeated Einstein in the Stephen Foster handicap.
einstein was blocked for 3/4's of the stretch in that race

[delayjf]

Really grasping at straws huh? There really is no but. You thought something and were wrong. Holy Bull is an example of a uninjured horse whose connections decided to skip the BC, and also won HOY. Rachel Alexandra is another example.

Grasping at straws. Hardly, yes I was wrong by 5 days big deal and yes Holy Bulls did when HOY by skipping the Breeders Cup. BUT other than winning the Woodward, their is no comparison between RA and Holy Bull. Unlike RA who beat nobody in the 2009 Woodward. Holy Bull had beaten pretty much all of the major handicap horses in 94 including Go for Gin, Devil His Due, Colonial Affair, Bertrando and Tinners Way. He beat Concern, the BCC champ twice as well as the BCC runner up, Tobasco Cat. If you think RA's competition was as tough as Holy Bull's, you're the one grasping at straws.

[Dahoss9698]

Grasping at straws. Hardly, yes I was wrong by 5 days big deal and yes Holy Bulls did when HOY by skipping the Breeders Cup. BUT other than winning the Woodward, their is no comparison between RA and Holy Bull. Unlike RA who beat nobody in the 2009 Woodward. Holy Bull had beaten pretty much all of the major handicap horses in 94 including Go for Gin, Devil His Due, Colonial Affair, Bertrando and Tinners Way. He beat Concern, the BCC champ twice as well as the BCC runner up, Tobasco Cat. If you think RA's competition was as tough as Holy Bull's, you're the one grasping at straws.

Please show me where I said her competition was as tough. You made an incorrect statement. I corrected it. You then wanted to change the criteria of your earlier statement.

I know all about who Holy Bull beat and what he did in his career. He's the horse that got me hooked on the game. The only comparison I made in this thread was they both made their last start of the year in the Woodward, uninjured, and both won HOY.

[Dan H]

Rachel Alexandra deserved 2009 Horse of the Year based on her campaign. Voters got it right. I accept all of the discussion points made by those here in the RA camp. Truly, a great mare. You guys are very sharp.

I just had a hard time with the title of the original post which inferred that Jerry Moss is a "whiner" and the cited Lieberman article that discredited the Breeders Cup World Championship.

I felt the original poster was prodding the Zenyatta camp into a debate that was won at the Eclipse Awards.

For Spalding No!, I regret the cross words here.

[FenceBored]

Rachel Alexandra deserved 2009 Horse of the Year based on her campaign. Voters got it right. I accept all of the discussion points made by those here in the RA camp. Truly, a great mare. You guys are very sharp.

I just had a hard time with the title of the original post which inferred that Jerry Moss is a "whiner" and the cited Lieberman article that discredited the Breeders Cup World Championship.

I felt the original poster was prodding the Zenyatta camp into a debate that was won at the Eclipse Awards.

For Spalding No!, I regret the cross words here.

Jerry Moss, in complaining about the voting, by saying that Zenyatta "only got beat by proxy" is whining. He can't admit he made a mistake, so he's blaming others.

[Kimsus]

Jerry Moss, in complaining about the voting, by saying that Zenyatta "only got beat by proxy" is whining. He can't admit he made a mistake, so he's blaming others.

Or is this open to intrepertation? If your quote is correct, he may be saying he thinks his horse is better. So what's wrong with that? It seems like you are the only one whining here. Did you also forget Jackon's inference that if Curlin raced in last yrs BC he would have beaten Zenyatta? Is this whining aslo? Again you say you like both horses, from everything you say here, I find that impossible to believe. You are a 110% Rachel Alexandra advocate, is this alright? Yes! But don't tell me or the others that you like both horses...Anyone who is half/sharp around here can see thru the charade.

[FenceBored]

Or is this open to intrepertation? If your quote is correct, he may be saying he thinks his horse is better. So what's wrong with that? It seems like you are the only one whining here. Did you also forget Jackon's inference that if Curlin raced in last yrs BC he would have beaten Zenyatta? Is this whining aslo?

There's certainly a lot of commentary in the racing press and websites that calls Jackson's comments whining. And, yes, to my ear there's a certain nasal inflection to those remarks. Certainly comparisons between the two Classics have been/are/will be made, but for him to do so in the setting and manner in which he did so was mildly whining, as compared to Jerry Moss, which is why Moss is the real whine-maker. See, the thread title makes sense, and is accurate, too. Bonus!


Again you say you like both horses, from everything you say here, I find that impossible to believe.

Really? You'll beleive that PA is closing threads just to prevent you from responding to a point he made, but you find my liking Zenyatta "impossible to believe?" Verrry Interesting. And how does this make you feel?

You are a 110% Rachel Alexandra advocate, is this alright? Yes! But don't tell me or the others that you like both horses...Anyone who is half/sharp around here can see thru the charade.

If they were more than "half/sharp," as you say, they would understand that the world isn't as dicotomous as you believe. One doesn't always have to have the dial cranked up to 11, or "110%," as you say, to be a fan. I do like both horses, though certain Zenyatta fans are doing their best to poison my affection for her. It's kind of like how some people feel about the Yankees and their fans. Not me, though, Yankees' fans A-OK. :ThmbUp:

[Kimsus]

Really? You'll beleive that PA is closing threads just to prevent you from responding to a point he made, but you find my liking Zenyatta "impossible to believe?" Verrry Interesting. And how does this make you feel?


No I know I am not that important.

[delayjf]

Please show me where I said her competition was as tough. You made an incorrect statement. I corrected it. You then wanted to change the criteria of your earlier statement.

I know all about who Holy Bull beat and what he did in his career. He's the horse that got me hooked on the game. The only comparison I made in this thread was they both made their last start of the year in the Woodward, uninjured, and both won HOY.

And you were correct for pointing out my mistake, I said I maybe wrong and I was. I actully appreciate you pointing out the exception because comparing both horses campaigns and looking at who they raced against and defeated. But if horses like Holy Bull are the exception, I don't agree that I'm grasping at straws.

I hope this doesn't become SOP for stables attempting to win HOY, racing needs the rivalries that have made it great and provided its finest moments.

[Dahoss9698]

And you were correct for pointing out my mistake, I said I maybe wrong and I was. I actully appreciate you pointing out the exception because comparing both horses campaigns and looking at who they raced against and defeated. But if horses like Holy Bull are the exception, I don't agree that I'm grasping at straws.

I hope this doesn't become SOP for stables attempting to win HOY, racing needs the rivalries that have made it great and provided its finest moments.

I just looked it up and Point Given and Charasmatic also won HOY in their respective years. Point Given made his final career start in the Travers and as we all know Charasmatic's last race was the Belmont he pulled up in. They were both injured, so it's different than whay you were saying, but it's interesting to note Charasmatic won after his last winning race was in May.

I would agree with the rivalries part. As far as we know, the sole reason for Rachel not competing in the BC was the surface. Personally, I'm okay with that. Just as I would have no problem with the connections of a turf horse who choose not to compete in the BC Classic when it's held at a track with dirt.

The quicker people stop looking at the BC as some sort of Super Bowl, the better the game will be IMO. I think we'll see more rivalries like we saw years back if people didn't put so much emphasis on one race.