SA breakdown...

[joanied]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55030/kinsella-euthanized-after-workout?utm_medium=email&uid=481BA219-D701-4446-AE71-89DFF153213F&utm_source=DailyNewsletter&utm_campaign=20100127

Kinsella euthanized after work on Pro Ride... this is very, very sad....as they all are. Jeeze.

Kinsella R.I.P
:(

[Kimsus]

Unfortunate, but why is pro-ride mentioned everytime this happens, horses do get hurt in workouts and when it happens on dirt it is rarely mentioned. :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

Unfortunate, but why is pro-ride mentioned everytime this happens, horses do get hurt in workouts and when it happens on dirt it is rarely mentioned. :bang:Really? I thought that's how we ended up with Pro-Ride in the first place! :bang: :bang:

[andymays]

Unfortunate, but why is pro-ride mentioned everytime this happens, horses do get hurt in workouts and when it happens on dirt it is rarely mentioned. :bang:


It all goes back to the false claims made by the synthetic infomercial. :liar:

The dirt informercial never made those kinds of claims. ;)

[Kimsus]

Really? I thought that's how we ended up with Pro-Ride in the first place! :bang: :bang:

I'll have to dig up the report I saw online regarding synth, it did show a significant reduction in catastrophic breakdowns from dirt tracks. Realistically there is no surface that can completely stop a horse from breaking down, it is unrealistic to think so.

[Kimsus]

It all goes back to the false claims made by the synthetic infomercial. :liar:

The dirt informercial never made those kinds of claims. ;)

I don't think, infact I know Pro-Ride would NEVER guarnatee that it would completely eliminate breakdowns.

The only negatives I have heard regarding pro-ride is horses may experience soreness in their hinds. But is synth absolutely to blame for this? And if this is the worse, then synth has atleast reduced the main goal catastrophic breakdowns. I think we would all like this.

[andymays]

I don't think, infact I know Pro-Ride would NEVER guarnatee that it would completely eliminate breakdowns.

The only negatives I have heard regarding breakdowns is horses may experience soreness in their hinds. But is synth absolutely to blame for this? And if this is the worse, then synth has atleast reduced the main goal catastrophic breakdowns. I think we would all like this.


It is impossible to compare the worst three years of a dirt surface in California with decades old bases to the first three years of synthetic surfaces with new synthetic material and new bases. On top of that vet inspections have been tripled from race day to the gate. Anyone who's followed California racing has noticed the increased scratches in the post parade and at the gate.

Synthetic material wears out from usage, weather, and maintenance. Arlington 2009 was nothing like Arlington 2007 and Del Mar 2009 was nothing like Del Mar 2007. If you don't believe me check out this quote from Bill Casner of Winstar Farms who is (was) a synthetic advocate:

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_76e60435-8242-51d3-9bc9-1a7debc5b864.html

Excerpt:

"Maintenance is the absolute critical thing," said Winstar Farm's Bill Casner, who owns Colonel John, the morning-line favorite in Del Mar's $1 million Pacific Classic on Sunday. "They have tightened up the Del Mar surface this year. The first year, it was slow but safe. It was pretty good last year. ]This year it sounds like a herd of buffalo down there on the track."[/SIZE]

[Kimsus]

It is impossible to compare the worst three years of a dirt surface in California with decades old bases to the first three years of synthetic surfaces with new synthetic material and new bases. On top of that vet inspections have been tripled from race day to the gate. Anyone who's followed California racing has noticed the increased scratches in the post parade and at the gate.

Sythetic material wears out from usage, weather, and maintenance. Arlington 2009 was nothing like Arlington 2007 and Del Mar 2009 was nothing like Del Mar 2007. If you don't believe me check out this quote from Bill Casner of Winstar Farms who is (was) a synthetic advocate:

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/equestrian/racing/article_76e60435-8242-51d3-9bc9-1a7debc5b864.html

Excerpt:

"Maintenance is the absolute critical thing," said Winstar Farm's Bill Casner, who owns Colonel John, the morning-line favorite in Del Mar's $1 million Pacific Classic on Sunday. "They have tightened up the Del Mar surface this year. The first year, it was slow but safe. It was pretty good last year. ]This year it sounds like a herd of buffalo down there on the track."[/SIZE]

Good post, it's a maintenance issue, not the track. Other tracks have had less trouble. IE Woodbine, Keeneland. I can see a witch hunt brewing out there, and I am not sure what the true motives are. Money? People's own agendas?

[andymays]

Good post, it's a maintenance issue, not the track. Other tracks have had less trouble. IE Woodbine, Keeneland. I can see a witch hunt brewing out there, and I am not sure what the true motives are. Money? People's own agendas?


Taking Del Mar as an example I will say that the tracks don't run their synthetic surfaces to specifications. At Del Mar in 2007 they did run it to specifications and everyone hated it. It was slow paceless racing with very few runners being able to win on the lead no matter how slow the pace was. So Trainers complain, Horseplayers complain, and owners complain. What do they do? They work it and water it until it plays more like dirt. If they're gonna do that why not just have dirt?

You hear about California more than the others because of the many reporters who cover the circuit and the many more people who follow it(than the other synthetic venues).

[miesque]

In the interest of fair and balance disclosure, someone should start posting a thread every time a horse breaks down on all tracks and surfaces. Even better have one Breakdown Tally Thread to keep track of all the breakdowns and the trainer/owners as well as the tracks and track surfaces they occured on, that might actually be useful.

[andymays]

So Long Synthetic - By Dan Liebman

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/21/so-long-synthetic-by-dan-liebman.aspx

Excerpt:

Frank Stronach, whose Magna owns Santa Anita, has never been a fan of synthetic surfaces. I have always thought Stronach correct when he said, parenthetically, “Spent the same amount of money on your dirt surface and you will have a good surface.”

How Stronach let them convince him to “re-install” a synthetic surface I don’t know.

Perhaps it is that synthetic surfaces simply work better in areas with colder climates (such as Woodbine and Turfway Park), or places with a small number of racing dates and small horse populations (like Keeneland). Again, I don’t know.

But I do know the surface at Santa Anita was a disaster and a decision to return to dirt seems to make sense.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/21/so-long-synthetic-by-dan-liebman.aspx

[johnhannibalsmith]

In the interest of fair and balance disclosure, someone should start posting a thread every time a horse breaks down on all tracks and surfaces. Even better have one Breakdown Tally Thread to keep track of all the breakdowns and the trainer/owners as well as the tracks and track surfaces they occured on, that might actually be useful.

Is there enough bandwidth here for such an endeavour?

[andymays]

Is there enough bandwidth here for such an endeavour?


No!

Joanied mentioned pro ride and kimsus brought it up too. What's a synthetic hater to do? ;)

[Kimsus]

So Long Synthetic - By Dan Liebman

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/21/so-long-synthetic-by-dan-liebman.aspx

Excerpt:

Frank Stronach, whose Magna owns Santa Anita, has never been a fan of synthetic surfaces. I have always thought Stronach correct when he said, parenthetically, “Spent the same amount of money on your dirt surface and you will have a good surface.”

How Stronach let them convince him to “re-install” a synthetic surface I don’t know.

Perhaps it is that synthetic surfaces simply work better in areas with colder climates (such as Woodbine and Turfway Park), or places with a small number of racing dates and small horse populations (like Keeneland). Again, I don’t know.

But I do know the surface at Santa Anita was a disaster and a decision to return to dirt seems to make sense.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/01/21/so-long-synthetic-by-dan-liebman.aspx

Trust me, when or if they do decide to return to dirt tracks in So Cal and when there is a high profile breakdown(it's inevitable) there will be an outcry for a safer surface. These are probably the same people that kicked and screamed for poly when Barbaro broke down and now have done a complete 360.

[andymays]

Trust me, when or if they do decide to return to dirt tracks in So Cal and when there is a high profile breakdown(it's inevitable) there will be an outcry for a safer surface. These are probably the same people that kicked and screamed for poly when Barbaro broke down and now have done a complete 360.


There have been many recent articles on synthetics and most of them are critical. I think the one by Darrell Vienna is good and here's the thread about it:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66098

For the record I believe that when the synthetic surface is new and run to specifications it probably is safer as far as catastrophic breakdowns but not as far as soft tissue injuries.

The question then becomes how long is the synthetic surface new? Not long!

[FenceBored]

Trust me, when or if they do decide to return to dirt tracks in So Cal and when there is a high profile breakdown(it's inevitable) there will be an outcry for a safer surface. These are probably the same people that kicked and screamed for poly when Barbaro broke down and now have done a complete 360.

I find your anticipatory glee at the prospect of "a high profile breakdown" on dirt most unseemly.

[Kimsus]

There have been many recent articles on synthetics and most of them are critical. I think the one by Darrell Vienna is good and here's the thread about it:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66098

For the record I believe that when the synthetic surface is new and run to specifications it probably is safer as far as catastrophic breakdowns but not as far as soft tissue injuries.

The question then becomes how long is the synthetic surface new? Not long!

I've read it already thanks, I would like to hear from more than one trainer, when pro-ride 1st came out, many trainer's some who are very respected had nothing but positives to say about the surface. Were they all wrong? This issue has to be examined rather than a witch hunt knee jerk reaction that seems to be the norm today.

[andymays]

I've read it already thanks, I would like to hear from more than one trainer, when pro-ride 1st came out, many trainer's some who are very respected had nothing but positives to say about the surface. Were they all wrong? This issue has to be examined rather than a witch hunt knee jerk reaction that seems to be the norm today.


3 years of synthetics in California and they've had enough. 70% or 80% of Trainers want them gone. There must be a reason.

[Kimsus]

I find your anticipatory glee at the prospect of "a high profile breakdown" on dirt most unseemly.

anticipatory glee Even with the most hardened race observer, I would never expect anyone to express glee over a breakdown.

But if you want me to say it, obcourse I was only being a realist.

[Kimsus]

3 years of synthetics in California and they've had enough. 70% or 80% of Trainers want them gone. There must be a reason.

I question that unofficial poll I assume it is, I think you have to include people from all corners of the industry to have a true reflection and that includes the Jockey's since they are the one's that put their lives on the line day in, day out. Owner's because it is their investments that are running over the dirt/poly.

[andymays]

I question that unofficial poll I assume it is, I think you have to include people from all corners of the industry to have a true reflection and that includes the Jockey's since they are the one's that put their lives on the line day in, day out. Owner's because it is their investments that are running over the dirt/poly.


If you want to ask the jockeys then there is an article out there about the Jockeys at Arlington complaining about the surface. Someone posted it here a few months ago.

[Backstretch Pirate]

I question that unofficial poll I assume it is, I think you have to include people from all corners of the industry to have a true reflection and that includes the Jockey's since they are the one's that put their lives on the line day in, day out. Owner's because it is their investments that are running over the dirt/poly.

Why not poll the bettors? See what kind of response you get. Without them, you have no sport.

[Kimsus]

Why not poll the bettors? See what kind of response you get. Without them, you have no sport.

Leaving it up to a popularity contest? No. I'm abit cynical on this one. I'm sure there will be ulterior motives. IMO The decision will have very little to do with the welfare of the horse.

[Backstretch Pirate]

Leaving it up to a popularity contest? No. I'm abit cynical on this one. I'm sure there will be ulterior motives. IMO The decision will have very little to do with the welfare of the horse.

Kismus, you say you are all about the welfare of the horse. However, we really have no way of knowing which is the safer surface. You want all dirt breakdowns reported, knowing full well that there are 10 times more dirt tracks than synthetics. What is your real agenda?

[Kimsus]

Kismus, you say you are all about the welfare of the horse. However, we really have no way of knowing which is the safer surface. You want all dirt breakdowns reported, knowing full well that there are 10 times more dirt tracks than synthetics. What is your real agenda?

My adenda though that is not the adjective I would use, is first and foremost I want what is best for the horse, as you correctly stated there should atleast be an accurate sampling of tracking catastrophic breakdowns before a decision is made one way or the other. There are alot of factors to consider here, breeders for one. Expensive sires that may have excelled with dirt progeny may not be as successful on sythetics, so as anyone can surmise there can be some external factors involved that may want to lead the removal of synthetics from all NA tracks. From a horseracing fan's perspective I have enjoyed pro-ride since it's inception at SA, just as I enjoy dirt racing from Saratoga. To me pro-ride it is a fairer surface that rewards closers if they are good enough and front runners if they are good enough. We concentrate on The BC so much that if one watch's day to day watching from SA, it is certainly not as anti -speed as one might believe it is. Is it less kind to speed than dirt? yes it is, but it is certainly not a speed killer.

[andymays]

This thread was started by CJ and has a poll question attached.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60157

[Backstretch Pirate]

From a horseracing fan's perspective I have enjoyed pro-ride since it's inception at SA

Ah....the crux of the matter. I haven't enjoyed it, and visually it is like watching paint dry.

[46zilzal]

When are they going to admit it? Breed all stamina out of the horse, take away its inflammatory early warning system and they a soft track is supposed to make up for it?

WRONG answer to helping the increasingly fragile animals.

[andymays]

Ah....the crux of the matter. I haven't enjoyed it, and visually it is like watching paint dry.


My sentiments exactly. :ThmbUp:

[joanied]

Unfortunate, but why is pro-ride mentioned everytime this happens, horses do get hurt in workouts and when it happens on dirt it is rarely mentioned. :bang:

Oh yes they do. Needless to say, not every horse that breaks down, regardless of surface, can be mentioned...some we don't even know about, but mostly there are too many to keep posting about, so usually it's the more high profile horses that get mentioned here... Kinsella would have been posted about regardless of the surface that he broke down on.

[joanied]

In the interest of fair and balance disclosure, someone should start posting a thread every time a horse breaks down on all tracks and surfaces. Even better have one Breakdown Tally Thread to keep track of all the breakdowns and the trainer/owners as well as the tracks and track surfaces they occured on, that might actually be useful.

Good idea...I mentioned in a post that we just don't know about every horse that breaks down...can we actually keep track of this? I would think we'd have to have a few people here check the stats at every track, every day...can anyone do this?

[Kimsus]

Oh yes they do. Needless to say, not every horse that breaks down, regardless of surface, can be mentioned...some we don't even know about, but mostly there are too many to keep posting about, so usually it's the more high profile horses that get mentioned here... Kinsella would have been posted about regardless of the surface that he broke down on.

Yes, but I doubt anywhere in the headline would the caption read "on Pro-ride".

[jognlope]

I wish there were a memorial website for them. Even the unknowns, somebody looked into their eyes and loved them.

[joanied]

Yes, but I doubt anywhere in the headline would the caption read "on Pro-ride".

Why should you really give a damn about the Pro Ride in the thread title...you are the only one that mentioned that...bottom line is a horse is gone.

[joanied]

I wish there were a memorial website for them. Even the unknowns, somebody looked into their eyes and loved them.

jog...there should be something like that...I'd think the best way to accomplish that would be for every track to have a memorial section on it's web site...don't ya think?

[Kimsus]

Why should you really give a damn about the Pro Ride in the thread title...you are the only one that mentioned that...bottom line is a horse is gone.

Only because In the title of the post it read SA breakdown...

Then in the body of the post it read Kinsella euthanized after work on Pro Ride...It would sound strange if the word "pro-ride" as replaced with the word "dirt" wouldn't it? So why mention it at all unless you are implying it was due to him working on pro-ride?

[joanied]

Only because In the title of the post it read SA breakdown...

Then in the body of the post it read Kinsella euthanized after work on Pro Ride...It would sound strange if the word "pro-ride" as replaced with the word "dirt" wouldn't it? So why mention it at all unless you are implying it was due to him working on pro-ride?

Considering what the weather has done to that surface at SA recently...maybe it was the Pro Ride...

[rwwupl]

Good post, it's a maintenance issue, not the track. Other tracks have had less trouble. IE Woodbine, Keeneland. I can see a witch hunt brewing out there, and I am not sure what the true motives are. Money? People's own agendas?



I think maintenance is an important factor. Because of the inconsistency of synthetics no one has figured out what to do next. The synthetics are known to be volatile in changing rapidly.

I found it interesting that Richard Tedesco who replaced Steve Wood at Santa Anita in 2007 as track maintenance super., has replaced Steve Wood at Del Mar for the new season,2010.

Hmmm... I think maintenance is important. I hope they figure it out sometime.

[jognlope]

You're right. The track should care, Joanied. I applaud Finger Lakes for one thing re retiring sound horses, it has that retirement stable all set up right there.

[FenceBored]

Only because In the title of the post it read SA breakdown...

Then in the body of the post it read Kinsella euthanized after work on Pro Ride...It would sound strange if the word "pro-ride" as replaced with the word "dirt" wouldn't it? So why mention it at all unless you are implying it was due to him working on pro-ride?

It wouldn't sound strange at all. Mentioning the surface gives a detail many unbiased observers would wish to know. Anyway Santa Anita does maintain a dirt training track, so just saying an injury occurred during training hours at Santa Anita doesn't necessarily mean one thing or the other.

[joanied]

Yes, but I doubt anywhere in the headline would the caption read "on Pro-ride".

Ohman....I don't think you even looked at the article, Kismus...so, here is the first paragraph for you:

"Kinsella (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/kinsella/2006?source=BHonline), who sold for a sale-topping $2.2 million at the 2007 Fasig-Tipton Saratoga yearling sale, was euthanized Jan. 25 after breaking down following a workout over Santa Anita’s Pro-Ride surface. The 4-year-old son of Mr. Greeley (http://www.stallionregister.com/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=1372752&origin=BHonline) (http://www.equineline.com/dotReportProductSelectionDisplay.cfm?horse_name=Mr .+Greeley&YOB=1992&breed_type=TB&horse_type=I&ASCID=1443262) raced for Team Valor International."

:bang:

[therussmeister]

Good idea...I mentioned in a post that we just don't know about every horse that breaks down...can we actually keep track of this? I would think we'd have to have a few people here check the stats at every track, every day...can anyone do this?
To do it right, you have to keep track of the number of starters. The important statistic is how many breakdowns per 1000 starters.

[andymays]

To do it right, you have to keep track of the number of starters. The important statistic is how many breakdowns per 1000 starters.


They have kept accurate statistics for the last year and a half.

Before that they were not accurate and in Southern California they would not count a horse that was vanned off and then euthanized a day or two later as a racing fatality. The same with breakdowns in moring workouts.

[therussmeister]

I think maintenance is an important factor. Because of the inconsistency of synthetics no one has figured out what to do next. The synthetics are known to be volatile in changing rapidly.

I found it interesting that Richard Tedesco who replaced Steve Wood at Santa Anita in 2007 as track maintenance super., has replaced Steve Wood at Del Mar for the new season,2010.

Hmmm... I think maintenance is important. I hope they figure it out sometime.
There is a guy in Maine, I think he is a physics professor, taking a year sabbatical from teaching to research optimal maintenance for synthetics. Plus, I believe he is also looking to improve dirt track maintenance.

[therussmeister]

They have kept accurate statistics for the last year and a half.

Before that they were not accurate and in Southern California they would not count a horse that was vanned off and then euthanized a day or two later as a racing fatality. The same with breakdowns in moring workouts.
That is why it is pointless to try and do it here on this forum. Would have the exact same problems.

[bisket]

jog...there should be something like that...I'd think the best way to accomplish that would be for every track to have a memorial section on it's web site...don't ya think?
there is
http://boards.msn.com/UKNewsboards/thread.aspx?threadid=1213492
and
http://forinesperado.blogspot.com/

[andymays]

That is why it is pointless to try and do it here on this forum. Would have the exact same problems.


A study will take at least 5 years and it has to be done by people who don't have ties to any synthetic manufacturer.

For example there was a hoof impact study done by U.C. Davis and most of the people involved were really good people. The guy who invented the "horse shoe" that collected the data is a true hero. The problem is that although it was done by U.C. Davis it was done at Keenland/Polytrack and Keenland/Polytrack has a financial interest in the success of Polytrack. The surface was less than a couple years old at the time and who knows whether or not the surface was fluffed up. The other problem with the study is that if they did it at Del Mar in 2007 the results would have been great but in 2009 the results would have been terrible. It wears out at about the two year point.

[joanied]

There is a guy in Maine, I think he is a physics professor, taking a year sabbatical from teaching to research optimal maintenance for synthetics. Plus, I believe he is also looking to improve dirt track maintenance.

Hope he hurries up...lord knows SA has no idea how to maintain that surface...but hey, it's going back to dsirt...so, I hope this study comes up with some good info to help them maintain the dirt surface again:)

[joanied]

there is
http://boards.msn.com/UKNewsboards/thread.aspx?threadid=1213492
and
http://forinesperado.blogspot.com/

Hey da bisket...thanks for posting those links...they are waaaay too long:( ...

but what I was suggesting is that every track that has a web site should have a special memorial section to name and honor any horses that die on the grounds...for whatever reason.
Be easy enough to do.

[PaceAdvantage]

In the interest of fair and balance disclosure, someone should start posting a thread every time a horse breaks down on all tracks and surfaces. Even better have one Breakdown Tally Thread to keep track of all the breakdowns and the trainer/owners as well as the tracks and track surfaces they occured on, that might actually be useful.If the AWS folks hadn't pitched their warez by telling us how much safer their surface would be for both horse and rider, this type of thread would have much less impact.

And if those who opposed the rush to embrace these new surfaces weren't made to feel like they were jumping on the Michael Vick animal cruelty bandwagon, again, these threads probably wouldn't exist in such numbers.

[Stillriledup]

In the interest of fair and balance disclosure, someone should start posting a thread every time a horse breaks down on all tracks and surfaces. Even better have one Breakdown Tally Thread to keep track of all the breakdowns and the trainer/owners as well as the tracks and track surfaces they occured on, that might actually be useful.


Here's the difference. Synthetic's calling card is that it's safer than Dirt. Dirt never said a word, it was there first. Dirt is dirt and dirt realizes that horses break down as 'part of the game'. Synthetic is specifically made to prevent breakdowns, so if a horse breaks down on synthetic, its news. If a horse breaks down on dirt, its just part of the game.

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that tracks are more concerned with catastrophic breakdowns in front of the fans than they are with the actual number of breakdowns that people don't see (in the morning, or on the backstretch) and breakdowns that don't result in the horse falling down and having the guy with the tarp come out and hold it in front of the fallen animal.

[toetoe]

Good post, it's a maintenance issue, not the track.



Then why install Astrodirt in the first place ? :bang: :bang:

[toetoe]

adenda the adjective ... atleast ... if one watch's day to day watching ...


Is that you, Mr. Watchmaker ? :(

[joanied]

Here's the difference. Synthetic's calling card is that it's safer than Dirt. Dirt never said a word, it was there first. Dirt is dirt and dirt realizes that horses break down as 'part of the game'. Synthetic is specifically made to prevent breakdowns, so if a horse breaks down on synthetic, its news. If a horse breaks down on dirt, its just part of the game.

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that tracks are more concerned with catastrophic breakdowns in front of the fans than they are with the actual number of breakdowns that people don't see (in the morning, or on the backstretch) and breakdowns that don't result in the horse falling down and having the guy with the tarp come out and hold it in front of the fallen animal.

Good post, IMO...I bolded that part of your post because it speaks volumes...and, as sad as that is, IMO, it's a huge part of the problem...which leads into the fact that the 'powers that be' are looking more at the bottom line financially, than looking out for the welfare of the horses.

What a mess:( :mad: :bang: