O'Neill Goes East

[Relwob Owner]

Has anyone noticed that Doug O'Neill has started sending many horses east, particularly at PHA and CT? Some are with CA owners (Tommy Town Thoroughbreds) and some owned by O'Neill himself. He is doing quite well, at least at CT. Does anyone know if this will be a permanent move for him, where he is keeping the horses, etc? Could he be preparing for the potential demise of racing in CA?

[dylbert]

Four-letter answer is D-I-R-T!

O'Neill and some other California connections slip horses into Delta Downs, too. Thanks for adding CT & PHA to my "shipper radar".

[miesque]

It is a one word reason, money. High purse levels and low relative expenses makes it a lot easier on owners wallets. It is so much cheaper to race somewhere like Philly or CT then in New York or California, it's why just looking at purse levels are deceiving and does not tell the whole story.

[onefast99]

He has been out this way before, he has shipped many into Monmouth Park.

[castaway01]

He's been at most of the eastern tracks for the past year.

[Relwob Owner]

He's been at most of the eastern tracks for the past year.



His Charlestown presence is definitely relatively new.....I had only noticed him at Philly as well but hadnt seen him at Penn, Delaware, Laurel or NY....I dont follow those as closely and may have missed his presence there....I was also curious if he has a central place he keeps the horses and ships or if he has stalls at the tracks..any clue?

[bisket]

It is a one word reason, money. High purse levels and low relative expenses makes it a lot easier on owners wallets. It is so much cheaper to race somewhere like Philly or CT then in New York or California, it's why just looking at purse levels are deceiving and does not tell the whole story.
its killing us in md

[andicap]

It is a one word reason, money. High purse levels and low relative expenses makes it a lot easier on owners wallets. It is so much cheaper to race somewhere like Philly or CT then in New York or California, it's why just looking at purse levels are deceiving and does not tell the whole story.

I've long wondered why more owner and trainers don't ship into racino tracks with their inflated purses -- Mountaineer, for example. I was told once that it was very difficult for them to get stall pace at these tracks because of pressure from the local horsemen to keep them out. Is this correct?

[Relwob Owner]

I've long wondered why more owner and trainers don't ship into racino tracks with their inflated purses -- Mountaineer, for example. I was told once that it was very difficult for them to get stall pace at these tracks because of pressure from the local horsemen to keep them out. Is this correct?



In general, I believe it is....also, once you get stalls at a particular track, I believe they make it pretty hard for you to run elsewhere or at least put a lot of pressure on you not to....

[levinmpa]

This is a huge problem for California. Lots of horses have left for dirt and higher purses. Paulo Lobo moved his entire barn to New York last year. The horse population is slowly dropping. The synthetic surfaces were supposed to bring horses into the state, and initially, a lot new barns showed up. Pletcher, Lisa Lewis, Graham Motion, among others, sent horses during the Winter. Now the trend is moving backwards again for California. The synthetic surface mandate is killing them in handle, which has lowered purses, and racing dates, resulting in even more horses leaving the state. In my opinion, the synthetic mandate was a disaster that California is going to take many years to recover from, if at all.

[Kimsus]

This is a huge problem for California. Lots of horses have left for dirt and higher purses. Paulo Lobo moved his entire barn to New York last year. The horse population is slowly dropping. The synthetic surfaces were supposed to bring horses into the state, and initially, a lot new barns showed up. Pletcher, Lisa Lewis, Graham Motion, among others, sent horses during the Winter. Now the trend is moving backwards again for California. The synthetic surface mandate is killing them in handle, which has lowered purses, and racing dates, resulting in even more horses leaving the state. In my opinion, the synthetic mandate was a disaster that California is going to take many years to recover from, if at all.

Prior to synthetics in So Cal, wasn't this always the problem?
Filling fields? I seem to remember the 4 - 5 horse fields when it was dirt and not poly. To say this is only surface related is not examining all the external factors. This seems to be an agenda propogated by the anti-synthetic wing.

[andicap]

I've always read that workman's comp issues were the major problem for Calif. racing.

[Kimsus]

Four-letter answer is D-I-R-T!

O'Neill and some other California connections slip horses into Delta Downs, too. Thanks for adding CT & PHA to my "shipper radar".

Funny his win % is relatively unchanged at SA to when it was a dirt track. In the 11-14% range, if it was dirt then how can anyone explain why dirt-centric Bob Baffert is having such an outstanding meet? again people are so quick to jump to conclusions...anything to bash pro-ride.

[lsosa54]

Is the problem with artificial surfaces overall or with Pro Ride specifically or with a drainage problem at SA before the Pro Ride was installed? Tapeta Footings seems to do well at GG and PID and GG must get more rain than SA.

What about the Cushion Track @ HOL or the Polytrack at the 5 tracks that use it including DMR? These don't seem to have the problems Pro Ride has.

Seems to me the problem is more Pro Ride specific.

[v j stauffer]

Four-letter answer is D-I-R-T!

O'Neill and some other California connections slip horses into Delta Downs, too. Thanks for adding CT & PHA to my "shipper radar".

D-I-R-T means super duper nothing in this discussion.

P-U-R-S-E-S mean super super duper everything.

Doug is a terrific trainer with exceptionally loyal owners. They were all winning races and having fun. Except for one little problem.

No one was making any money. Doug, myself and legions of owners love California with all our hearts. No one wants to race anywhere else.

California cannot compete with other states that are willing to help their horsemen. With states that understand how much more of a fabric of our society racing and all the other connected industries contribute.

Until our state understands this. Cornerstones of our industry will continue to be forced to leave. What a shame.

[Robert Goren]

If these trainers leave CA, slowly but surely, their CA owners will cut back on the number of horses they own. No new CA owner will get in the game. If they can't bring their friends into the winner circle, there is no reason for them to own a horse. Well over 90% of horses lose money for their owners. CA's pool of people rich enough to own a horse is an awfully big pool to lose. I can understand sending their culls out of state and occasionally sending send a star for a big purse or a name race, but if I don't believe that very many people will fork over the cash to own a race horse and not be around for the glory part. JMO

[delayjf]

With states that understand how much more of a fabric of our society racing and all the other connected industries contribute.

A pity that Omaha NE didn't realize that - allowing Ak-Sar-Ben to fail.

[Vinnie]

I second that delayjf. I am from Omaha and unfortunately long before I became a fan of this great game Aksarben had already become defunct. It is indeed a travesty and an outright shame that it is no longer around.

[stuball]

And yet they see fit to pass takeout raises....they are headed straight ahead to a cliff and they step on the gas....pitiful

Stuball

[Kimsus]

D-I-R-T means super duper nothing in this discussion.

P-U-R-S-E-S mean super super duper everything.

Doug is a terrific trainer with exceptionally loyal owners. They were all winning races and having fun. Except for one little problem.

No one was making any money. Doug, myself and legions of owners love California with all our hearts. No one wants to race anywhere else.

California cannot compete with other states that are willing to help their horsemen. With states that understand how much more of a fabric of our society racing and all the other connected industries contribute.

Until our state understands this. Cornerstones of our industry will continue to be forced to leave. What a shame.

That's what I said, everyone assumes it is the surface, the anti - pro ride movement that is happening right now, but being that you represent Rosario, you would know. $

[Robert Goren]

The state of Nebraska and Douglas county did realize how much Aksarben meant. The state gave up its share of the takeout (they now do that for all tracks). Douglas county even tried to run it for a couple years after the non-profit Knights of Aksarben got tired of losing money on it. All the king's horses and all king's men could not put Humpty Dumpty back together again. :bang: The reasons for its demise are open to debate, but when the buses from Kansas City and Des Moines stopped coming, Aksarben started having problems.

[flewsfiggsfigure]

I've seen a few nice claims made off of him lately, I wonder if he is trying to unload his horses to make room for new ones.

[v j stauffer]

A pity that Omaha NE didn't realize that - allowing Ak-Sar-Ben to fail.

Especially pathetic was the fact that 8 miles away in Council Bluffs all the Omaha money was going into Iowa's coffers.

Ignorant bible beating boobs in Neb. caused one of America's great racetracks to wither away and die.

What a shame.

[delayjf]

The state of Nebraska and Douglas county did realize how much Aksarben meant. The state gave up its share of the takeout (they now do that for all tracks). Douglas county even tried to run it for a couple years after the non-profit Knights of Aksarben got tired of losing money on it. All the king's horses and all king's men could not put Humpty Dumpty back together again. The reasons for its demise are open to debate, but when the buses from Kansas City and Des Moines stopped coming, Aksarben started having problems.

Vic is right, the reason the track failed is because it lost too much business to the casinos. The dog track had a minimal affect, but go over to Council Bluffs on any given night and the parking lot will be about 70% filled with Nebraska plates. I'm not a huge fan of the proliferation of Casinos, but I think it naive of those in Nebraska that think they are sparing the state the ill effects of legalized gambling by not competing with Iowa. Slots certainly would have saved AK-SAR-BEN, they also needed to aggressively market their simulcast signal like Churchill Downs and Gulfstream did in the 80's. I know there were also some corporate interest who were eye balling the land – First Data Corp comes to mind. I know the owner of Runza Hut offered to buy AK-SAR-BEN, and allow First Data to build on part of the property, the Omaha City Council said no. Correct me if I’m wrong, but after all that, didn’t First Data end up building their offices across the street on the corner of 72 and Pacific?

Hey Vic, I think you will get a chuckle out of this, but I have a collection of AK programs and one year (I forget which) advertises a “Clockers Corners” that was run by you and your partner in crime at TVG, Chris Kotulak – the two of you have come a long way baby.

[v j stauffer]

Vic is right, the reason the track failed is because it lost too much business to the casinos. The dog track had a minimal affect, but go over to Council Bluffs on any given night and the parking lot will be about 70% filled with Nebraska plates. I'm not a huge fan of the proliferation of Casinos, but I think it naive of those in Nebraska that think they are sparing the state the ill effects of legalized gambling by not competing with Iowa. Slots certainly would have saved AK-SAR-BEN, they also needed to aggressively market their simulcast signal like Churchill Downs and Gulfstream did in the 80's. I know there were also some corporate interest who were eye balling the land – First Data Corp comes to mind. I know the owner of Runza Hut offered to buy AK-SAR-BEN, and allow First Data to build on part of the property, the Omaha City Council said no. Correct me if I’m wrong, but after all that, didn’t First Data end up building their offices across the street on the corner of 72 and Pacific?

Hey Vic, I think you will get a chuckle out of this, but I have a collection of AK programs and one year (I forget which) advertises a “Clockers Corners” that was run by you and your partner in crime at TVG, Chris Kotulak – the two of you have come a long way baby.

I called the last race ever run at Ak-Sar-Ben. Very sad memory now. Chris and I were good friends then. Wish we were now. Chris got fired at Hollywood Park and had to blame somebody so he chose his successor. Me. Oh well I wish him well.

[bigmack]

Ignorant bible beating boobs in Neb. caused one of America's great racetracks to wither away and die.
From your extensive knowledge of this you're saying that a racetrack closed because people went to church and believed and as a result they were ignorant and as a result of their isolated ignorance, AKsar closed?

Wow. That would make for a good book.

[v j stauffer]

From your extensive knowledge of this you're saying that a racetrack closed because people went to church and believed and as a result they were ignorant and as a result of their isolated ignorance, AKsar closed?

Wow. That would make for a good book.

From my onsite knowledge. I was there everyday. The ultra-conservative religious faction of the Nebraska State Legislature couldn't see the forrest for the trees and decided they needed to protect Nebraskans from the evils of casino gambling and themselves. Only one problem. The dollar toting heathens only had to drive 8 miles to Council Bluffs to stain their souls. Had they taken their hollier than thou heads out of their asses they would never have let that money leave the state and Ak-Sar-Ben would be alive today.

BTW every nickle that AK made went to Nebraska charities. Many many of which were supported by the church.

[Robert Goren]

I support legalizing casino gambling in Nebraska (and have voted for it everytime it has been on the ballot), but that would not have saved Aksarben. Aksarben was doomed when the Kansas City area got it. It had a lot same things going for it that racing in general has today. Short fields, poorly maintained betting areas and some the worst unfriendly management that has ever seen. 5 and 6 horse fields became common. The management even had the nerve to say that an 8 horse field was a full field. 10 years earlier they did run unless it had 8 horses and 6 of a nine race would have had 12. They seem to card more races that every one hated. Fillies and mares, maiden claimers and nw of 2 became the staple. People hated it and voted with their feet. They were use to better. In the 60's you couldn't get a stall for a 4 yo maiden. By the late 80s, it seemed that all they had. Aksarben in it last 10 years of operation was clinic in how not to run a race track.

[Robert Goren]

From my onsite knowledge. I was there everyday. The ultra-conservative religious faction of the Nebraska State Legislature couldn't see the forrest for the trees and decided they needed to protect Nebraskans from the evils of casino gambling and themselves. Vic, I know you were there. But you also should know that the legislature doesn't have the power to legalize casino gambling. They can and did put it on the ballot for the people voted on. It has been on the ballot several times (both by legislative action and by petition) and voted down . It really has never even been close to passing. I hate defending those fools in the legislature, this one isn't their fault.

[Vinnie]

Hello Vic:

Vic, just wanted to give you Big Time Props for your awesome race calls and I do hope that your health has been getting closer to 100% as I write this. :)

I am a Nebraska Kid (or was since birth) until my career made me reach out toward other borders in our good ol' USA. I never knew that you use to call the races at Aksarben. It was a bit before my time, but, it is very cool nonetheless. I just wanted to wish you well Vic.

[rwwupl]

V J Stauffer quote:

Ignorant bible beating boobs in Neb. caused one of America's great racetracks to wither away and die.

What a shame.

Robert Goren quote:


I support legalizing casino gambling in Nebraska (and have voted for it everytime it has been on the ballot), but that would not have saved Aksarben. Aksarben was doomed when the Kansas City area got it. It had a lot same things going for it that racing in general has today. Short fields, poorly maintained betting areas and some the worst unfriendly management that has ever seen. 5 and 6 horse fields became common. The management even had the nerve to say that an 8 horse field was a full field. 10 years earlier they did run unless it had 8 horses and 6 of a nine race would have had 12. They seem to card more races that every one hated. Fillies and mares, maiden claimers and nw of 2 became the staple. People hated it and voted with their feet. They were use to better. In the 60's you couldn't get a stall for a 4 yo maiden. By the late 80s, it seemed that all they had. Aksarben in it last 10 years of operation was clinic in how not to run a race track.


Vic Stauffer,

You have just proved yourself a true "houseman" who drinks too much "Kool-Aid" specializing in excuses and finger pointing!

You and your fellow travelers at the track management level should except the fact the demise of racing in general is directly under the control of the racing managers.

Blaming "Ignorant bible beating boobs" as the cause of Aksarben going out of business is naive and hypocrisy.

[v j stauffer]

V J Stauffer quote:



Robert Goren quote:


I


Vic Stauffer,

You have just proved yourself a true "houseman" who drinks too much "Kool-Aid" specializing in excuses and finger pointing!

You and your fellow travelers at the track management level should except the fact the demise of racing in general is directly under the control of the racing managers.

Blaming "Ignorant bible beating boobs" as the cause of Aksarben going out of business is naive and hypocrisy.

Naive and hypocrisy. Seems a bit harsh. Just my opinion about what took place.

BTW I'm not part of track management. Never have been. Never will be. Waaay too much like a real job.

[delayjf]

I support legalizing casino gambling in Nebraska (and have voted for it everytime it has been on the ballot), but that would not have saved Aksarben. Aksarben was doomed when the Kansas City area got it.

I agree the bus loads from KC were a thing of the past as were the huge daily attendance, but it certainly worked at Canterbury. Also, tracks like Churchhill and Gulfstream enjoyed a resurgence when they aggressively marketed their simulcast signal on a national level - AK ranked higher than both tracks in attendance and handle (1984) AK-SAR-BEN management was not very forward thinking - they remained stuck in the "on track" mentality - I don't know what year they first allowed the fans to bet the Kentucky Derby.

One other thing they needed was a turf track.

Keep the purses up and the horsemen will come and the fields will be full. And Ak-Sar-Ben was very popular with midwest horsemen - they loved Ak and they loved Omaha.

[Relwob Owner]

V J Stauffer quote:



Robert Goren quote:


I


Vic Stauffer,

You have just proved yourself a true "houseman" who drinks too much "Kool-Aid" specializing in excuses and finger pointing!

You and your fellow travelers at the track management level should except the fact the demise of racing in general is directly under the control of the racing managers.

Blaming "Ignorant bible beating boobs" as the cause of Aksarben going out of business is naive and hypocrisy.



i have no knowledge about Vic's involvement with Aksarben....however, from watching him on TVG, he seems like anything but a "true houseman"---he always seems willing able to comment openly and honestly on a wide variety of topics.