Will Azeri ever face the boys?

[Bubbles]

C'mon, Laura, run her against the opposite sex!

[Buddha]

i don't see it happening. it would be nice to see, but i just dont see it happening, at least not anytime soon. she has beat just about everyone out in cali

[cj]

The only way it will happen is if the weight assigned is just too high, and if she can catch what is perceived to be a weak field by the trainer. Recent history makes me not want to see this happen...

Lady's Secret pulled it off winning the Whitney, beating Ends Well and Fuzzy...who? Exactly! Didn't really impress anyone. She was humbled several other times against the boys.

Princess Rooney beat males in an allowance race at 1-5 as a 3yo, never tried again.

Personal Ensign beat Gulch(sprint champ) and King's Swan (old reformed claimer) to win a 3 horse Whitney.

Bayakoa was 0-2. Paseana was 0-1.

Shuvee did win the Jockey Club Gold Cup at 2 miles twice in the early 70s.

It just doesn't happen. If the girls want to take on the boys, the best time to try is as a 3yo or on the grass. Other than Shuvee, I couldn't find a single older mare beating a solid field of handicap horses on the dirt anywhere, and that was at the never seen today distance of 2 miles. Seen several try in my day, but it is usually a poor effort that taints the record of the champ.

In my 20 years of making speed figures, I've never seen a handicap mare who could compete successfully with the top horses/geldings of the day. The numbers don't lie, Azeri would be beaten by the best males. Her running style could make it a bad defeat.

Lets just enjoy Azeri for what she is, probably the best mare any of us will see race in the near future.

[JustRalph]

She is one hell of a Filly........ I think she deserves a shot at the boys......it could make her a legend if she beats some nice ones.

[Bubbles]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
Other than Shuvee, I couldn't find a single older mare beating a solid field of handicap horses on the dirt anywhere, and that was at the never seen today distance of 2 miles.

CJ...

Not true.

1) Busher was 3 for 4 against the boys in her championship season of 1945. One of those victories came in the Washington Park Handicap, where she beat fellow champion Armed.

2) Most of Gallorette's 21 victories came against the boys, one of which was 1945 Kentucky Derby winner Hoop Jr.

3) Dahlia won the 1974 Man o' War and Canadian International after conquering Europe's best.

4) Twilight Tear beat the boys twice in 1944, when she won Horse of the Year.

5) Top Flight also won against colts twice as a 2YO.

6) All Along won the East's three major turf races (Rothman's International, Turf Classic, and D.C. International), all against the gentlemen.

7) Regret, as many know, was the first filly to win the KY Derby, followed by Genuine Risk and Winning Colors.

8) Ta Wee, the champion sprinter of 1969 and 1970, beat colts and geldings three times (and was second once) during those years.

9) Bewitch defeated Citation and Free America as a 2YO.

10) Artful was the only horse to defeat the great Sysonby.

See, it happens.

[cj]

Bubbles,

Nice research. I tried to keep it to the 70s or later, today's horses aren't anything like those of yester-year.

Most of your examples are from long ago or on turf. I did exclude turf as I know mares can compete on that surface. I did leave out sprints, they obviously can compete in those races as well. Reference Very Subtle, Safely Kept, Xtra Heat, Soviet Problem, Meafara, and Desert Stormer to name a few.

I stand by my statement for older horses on dirt...the best mares cannot beat the best colts on dirt at the normal route distances, 9f or 10f.

[Bubbles]

CJ...

That you're right about. Mares aren't made they way they used to be. In the past, every year you would find a filly or mare capable of challenging the guys. Now horses only start six, seven times per year and aren't run enough to build up the strength, stamina, and endurance to do so.

The only exception is, perhaps, Go for Wand. This horse won the Test and Alabama (the latter at 1 1/4 miles) in a span of less than two weeks. If she was challenged against the boys, she may have been able to beat some of 'em. Any takers to that theory?

[Suff]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski

I stand by my statement for older horses on dirt...the best mares cannot beat the best colts on dirt at the normal route distances, 9f or 10f.

You gents have a better command of this subject than I.

Just the same. When I've seen Azeri race. I've been mesmerized by her. Something eerily awesome and special about her race game. She coud be the ONE in a MILLION , Cj?

[Valuist]

She won't.

Her trainer is bent on this winning streak thing. They want to go after Cigar's 16 race win streak.

[ceejay]

I think that Sightseek is a very good horse and would give Azeri an excellent run. Remember that Azeri headed Take Charge Lady in the Apple Blossom.

[Bubbles]

Personally, I think Sightseek is a fine horse. However, she seems to excel on the east coast (see her excellent romp in the Ogden Phipps), while Azeri dominates everywhere else and has yet to race in the east. If there was a race between those two at a flat mile at Belmont Park, it'd be darned close.

[Valuist]

If there was at least some other early speed, I'd take Sightseek to beat her right now.

[$$$$$]

Ok, let me see if I understand you guys correctly........you are saying that Sightseek has shows that she can compete with and possibly beat Azeri, right ?.......hmmm....... and this would be because Take Charge Lady only lost to Azeri by a head and Sightseek beat her by 5 ? (of course we are throwing out TCL's race in last years Breeder's Cup when Azeri beat her 13 1/2 lengths).......hmmm.....it doesn't matter that Take Charge Lady cakewalked on the front end the day she faced Azeri at Oaklawn (24.1 48.3) ?, sprinted home as fast as she could , yet somehow Azeri managed to sprint home even faster to catch her after shipping 1000+ miles and returning off of a 5 month layoff while carrying 5 more pounds ?, and when Take Charge Lady faced Sightseek, she set a pace of 22.2 and 45.1 in the slop carrying equal weight ?......ok.......oh, and it doesn't matter that Sightseek has NEVER won around 2 turns ? , and was beaten in one of her prior 2 turn events by Starrer, a horse that Azeri has already humbled on more than one occasion ? and that Sightseek was also beaten at her apparent favorite game (elongated 1 turn event) by Affluent, a horse that Azeri has spanked in several left-turned jaunts ?..........hmmmm........please explain to me what exactly you see that Sightseek has done so far that shows she can outrun this remarkable champion. I just don't see it.

[Bruddah]

Your analysis is right on. I saw the race where Azeri caught TCL at the wire at Oaklawn. Azeri was three lengths past her just past the wire. I couldn't have said it any better. Azeri would and will beat any female competition put in her way. She is a female freak.

[ceejay]

Hyperbole aside (I heard that love-fest of a race call at HOL), Azeri is the defening HOY (deservedly so). I, for one, never said that "she can outrun this remarkable champion." I said that Sightseek would give an excellent run.

BTW, I do throw out TCL's BC distaff in evalauting her record. I don't know why (maybe a bounce out of the spinster 3 weeks earlier), but she was never really in the race, and it was clearly the worst performance of her 3yo campaign. I guess only Azeri is allowed an excuse. "returning off of a 5 month layoff while carrying 5 more pounds" but TCL was off a 4-month layoff in the Apple Blossom. I don't personally believe that 5 pounds will have that big of an impact, but shouldn't the defending HOY have to give that much weight or more in a handicap to a filly that she beat by 13.5 l?

Azeri is a great one, but even great horses have lost races. I'd like to see the Sightseek and Azeri decide things on the track. I'd probably just watch the race because I'll be rooting for Azeri but unwilling to take 1/5.

[Valuist]

I haven't seen all of Azeri's races but has she ever had to overcome anything? AP was a speedfest the day of the BC last year and it seems Azeri has been on or near the lead in many soft pace races. Sightseek is trained by Frankel, who can train rings around De Soreuax or whatever her name is.

[GARY Z]

running azeri against colts means zip to the owners,and, frankly zero to the breeders..what's the point of winning against
the boys,when the obvious downside is breaking this
incredible mare's streak?

however if you do believe there is a reason to run mares/fillies
against the boys, why not do the reverse? ie:
throw a couple of also rans in the triple crown races against
a field of grade I or II fillies and mares?