Who Remembers The Grand Circuit In It's Hayday

[Trotman]

I was just going through a cupboard in my den and came upon a box with special programs from the 60's and 70's when the Grand Circuit rolled into town each season. I used to love that week at the track and these programs bring back some fond memories. :ThmbUp:

[sonnyp]

ralph baldwin
joe o'brien
stanley (last name not necessary)
billy haughton
del insko
glen garnsey
geroge sholty
the popfingers
john chapman
del miller
eddie cobb
john paterson

and so many more

"where have you gone joe dimaggio ? our nation turns its lonely eyes to you"

[Trotman]

SONNYP those are the names that made the game back then. I remember shooting the breeze on the backstretch with Garnsey, Dancer,Haughton and Bill Wellwood at Greenwood Racetrack in Toronto and Wellwood said could you imagine if we ever got to race for a million bucks one day,tongue in cheek mind you and we all kind of laughed. And look today The North America Cup and Meadowlands Pace. The boys are long gone but I can hear Wellwood now telling the rest I told you we would someday :D

[Tom]

Ah, the good old days. I remember the crowds were so thick you could barely get near the rail. Great summer nights.

[sonnyp]

i hate to get started down memory lane because you always have to return to the real world of today and it's depressing.

i got friendly with the john hayes sr. and jr. canadian hall of famers. they raced a champion named "strikeout". always raced in an entry with another good horse named "alley fighter". old man hayes was a real character. real rough and could be abrasive....but genuine.

he showed me a tape of himself as a young man being interviewed by chris schenkle before the little brown jug the year strikeout was in it. the local favorite in delaware ohio was "jay time" and considered by most as just about unbeatable.

schenkle :"you've come along way from canada with this little chestnut strikeout mr. hayes. do you really think he can beat the mighty jay time ?"

hayes: "well i'll tell you this, i'm not here to run for governor, i'm here to win a horse race."

in a very controversial move, hayes put keith waples behind strikeout and he drove alley fighter the lesser of the 2 coupled horses. as was expected jay time went right to the front at the start. hayes attacked immediately with alley fighter whipping and slashing to take the lead which he, obviously was going to get at all cost. jay time's driver realized fighting this challenge off was going to be suicide and let alley fighter go. as alley fighter began to clear here comes strikeout and waples to lock jay time in the 2 hole behind the other half of the entry, alley fighter. once the others pulled and lined up behind him in the second tier, waples simply cruised to the front with strikeout and easily won as hayes and alley fighter backed a helpless jay time through the field.

he wasn't kidding, he didn't go there to run for governor and he didn't care who liked it or not.

[LottaKash]

I remember those times....They were good times, win or lose....I was always excited about every bet that I made in those days....Have lots of memories of big-name horses and drivers....

Yonkers and Roosevelt raceways used to make a big thing about stakes races and big feature races....They used to put a spotlight on each horse as they announced each horse and driver and owner....

You had to get there early to get a decent seat, if any at all.....

Always excited about making a score....(There was mostly just wps betting & a dd bacl then..)...Even when we lost, we would just save up, and get back there as soon as we could...

Lots of brew, & yellin', & laffin'.........:jump: .......miss it much...:(

best,

[sonnyp]

kash we seem to always meet in threads like this. ahhhh those saturday afternoons with wynn elliot and the feature race brought to you by the "schaeffer circle of sports". 60 or 70 thousand in attendence at belmont or the big A and going "high atop the grandstand to the voice of nyra, fred cappasella".

staying all afternoon and exiting after the last to the sounds of drivers "hawking passengers to the trotters...trotters here".

who could resist ? yonkers...roosevelt.... 25,000 on hand. knish, hotdogs cold beer. carmine,loosh, buddy and herve.

kash, those were the days !!!!!

[Trotman]

Guys those days we're great and Sonny I remember that Jug, your noodle is still sharp. LK I remember Roosevelt like it was yesterday the crowds so huge, my Dad raced a string of horses there under John Chapman's care. One thing with Keith Waples he had this trick that he could do with a sulky and they we're the old wooden clunkers back then not the lightweights of today. If Keith needed to squeeze through a spot either left handed or right handed he would grab the shaft next to the seat and push his feet into the foot holds and lift the sulky sideways in mid flight and shift the sulky either side he needed the inches to get through. :ThmbUp:

[gillenr]

Goshen!

[sonnyp]

goshen will always preserve the memories......hall of fame

trotman, you mentioned bill wellwood. great canadian horseman. bought a pacer once from him at the old (and now long gone) st. catherine's.

he had a kid helping him named tom artandi. sound familiar ? decades later he trained a champ named "goalie jeff".

small world.

little did those guys like wellwood realize that the birth of the meadowlands would be the death of the little tracks and the grand circuit. kind of reflects our society. walmart and corporate america show up.....everybody thinks its great.....nobody realizes what we lose in the transition until its too late

kind of sad

[wilderness]

trotman, you mentioned bill wellwood. great canadian horseman. bought a pacer once from him at the old (and now long gone) st. catherine's.

he had a kid helping him named tom artandi. sound familiar ? decades later he trained a champ named "goalie jeff".

small world.


Sonny,
You referring to Garden City AT St. Catherine's?
OR
Was there actually another track named St. Catherine's?

TIA

[sonnyp]

wilderness

i stand corrected by the most knowledgeable guy on harness racing here. it was garden city raceway in st. catherine's, ont. unique in that, like the old freehold raceway, the barn area was seperated from the track by a major highway and the horses crossed a bridge to go back and forth.

[sonnyp]

wilderness,
as long as you're here.....who trained and drove jay time ?....i couldn't remember

[wilderness]

ralph baldwin (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1085091/index.htm)
joe o'brien
stanley (last name not necessary) (http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/instsmas.html)
billy haughton (http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/whghtn.html)
del insko (http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/delinsko.html)
glen garnsey
geroge sholty
the popfingers
john chapman (http://www.canadianhorseracinghalloffame.com/drivers-trainers/1979/John_Chapman.html)
del miller
eddie cobb
john paterson

and so many more

"where have you gone joe dimaggio ? our nation turns its lonely eyes to you"1

[wilderness]

wilderness
i stand corrected by the most knowledgeable guy on harness racing here.

You humble me and give far too much credit. I simply have tons of data at my fingertips.


wilderness,
as long as you're here.....who trained and drove jay time ?....i couldn't remember

Sonny,
I get confusing results in references to "Jay Time".
Gene Riegle seems to be the majority, however there are mentions of Keith Waples and one article even mentions "Del Insko on Jay Time's NY invasion".

There may even be more, however I looked quickly.

Wish I had your retention and recollection. Many thanks.

[wilderness]

There's a Canadian historian (Robert Smith) that writes an article every Sat Morn on the SC website under the theme of "Rewind".

One of his October articles was on Bill Wellwood (http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/10-31-09/sc-rewind-memories-william-wellwood.html) and mentions Garden City.

[sonnyp]

riegle was the driver that day and i believe he trained him. that race caused such hard feelings between he and hayes sr. i don't believe they ever spoke to each other again.

[wilderness]

Here's a replay of the '72 LBJ (http://www.harnessracing.ws/videos/1972-Spk-Silent-Majority.wmv) although it's likely on one heat.

[sonnyp]

wilderness

touching article on on bill wellwood. thanks for sharing.

i've been around alot of years and alot of tracks. i have memories of all types of people from the wealthiest of owners to the poorest of grooms.

i had a hard time reconcilling the scene in the great equalizer... the backstretch kitchen. here you could find a whitney or a vanderbilt and a poor mexican sitting at the same long table drinking a hot coffee out of the same paper cup on a cold morning. when they walked out that door, they entered such drastically different worlds.

the guys i've met on the backstretches of harness tracks are the most real and salt of the earth types you could ever hope to encounter.

i have great memories of great guys from a world that has long since ceased to exist.

every once in a while a thread like this brings life to the memores. thanks to all who contributed.

[LottaKash]

kash we seem to always meet in threads like this. ahhhh those saturday afternoons with wynn elliot and the feature race brought to you by the "schaeffer circle of sports". 60 or 70 thousand in attendence at belmont or the big A and going "high atop the grandstand to the voice of nyra, fred cappasella".

staying all afternoon and exiting after the last to the sounds of drivers "hawking passengers to the trotters...trotters here".

who could resist ? yonkers...roosevelt.... 25,000 on hand. knish, hotdogs cold beer. carmine,loosh, buddy and herve.

kash, those were the days !!!!!

All of that Sonny, especially the "Knish"......Yikes ! I miss-em....

best,

[wilderness]

sonny,
For those many, many people that have never experienced "the backstretch" it's quite difficult for those people to visualize such kind acceptance between the classes.

Frances Dodge-Van Lennep was one that could chat with anybody from caretakers and hot-walkers to the upper echelon of society. There are and were. . so many more in the Standardbred world with a similar attitude of acceptance and appreciation.

[wilderness]

kash,
Don't be drooling on your keyboard (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=Knish&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=VO1XS9SLMpPaNqu19NIE&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQsAQwAw&gbv=1&ei=sO1XS_jUIo-kNeKt_dcE)

[Pacingguy]

One reason the Grand Circuit does not draw the excitement it once did is there are just too many days of racing. Back in the good ol' days, racing was seasonal. Race tracks raced short meets which helped draw larger crowds and when you had a week of the nations best coming into the town, people got really into it. These days, each week blurs into the next and there is no excitement as each race is the same as the next.

Also, back then the best horses, trainers, and drivers toured on the Roarin' Grand with horses meeting up week after week. Now, the purses are too big at the Meadowlands so why tour? Also, there is no more racing each week of the best horses, you go into the Hambo with four or five starts that year and heaven forbid you race on a half mile track.

Sure, there are other gaming choices out there and high takeouts but it is my belief if we raced three months a year at each track there would still be more interest in racing as it would be here today gone tomorrow.

[Trotman]

Sonny you brought up Tom Artandi, Wellwood taught him to be a horseman but he ended up being an arrogant twerp. In fact when Goalie Jeff won the North American Cup Milt Dunnell a great sports writer for the Toronto Star brought up the subject of coming up under Wellwood and Artandi as the story goes told Milt to f*** off this was his victory alone,like the horse and the great steer by Condren had nothing to do with the win.

[LottaKash]

kash,
Don't be drooling on your keyboard (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=Knish&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=VO1XS9SLMpPaNqu19NIE&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQsAQwAw&gbv=1&ei=sO1XS_jUIo-kNeKt_dcE)

Don, I had to change my shirt twice since the reminder of the "knish"....My wife is wondering why I am typing this with my shirt off....I told her I smelled a knish, and she just said to put my shirt back on, cause I wasn't lookin' too good without a shirt on these days....:D

best,

[wilderness]

GC Schedule from different years.

1929
Hot Off the Grand Circuit Griddle
INDIANAPOLIS, Ind., Jan. 22.
THE Grand Circuit Stewards adopted a 17 week schedule, with one vacant week. E. Roland Harriman was elected president, W. P. Engelman, vice-president, and Don A. Detrick, secretary. Following is the schedule as adopted.
Lexington, Ky June 17-21
Toledo, Ohio June 24-28
North Randall, Ohio July 1-5
Toledo, Ohio July 8-12
Kalamazoo, Mich July 15-19
Grand Rapids, Mich July 22-26
Detroit, Mich July 29-Aug. 2
North Randall, Ohio Aug. 5-9
Hartford, Conn Aug. 12-16
Goshen, N. Y Aug. 19-23
Syracuse, N. Y Aug. 26-30
Indianapolis, Ind Sept. 2-6
Aurora, Ill Sept. 9-13
Cincinnati, Ohio Sept. 16-20
Open week Sept. 23-27
Lexington, Ky Sept. 30-Oct. 11
Macon, Ga. (probably) Oct. 14-18
--------------
1941 (http://www.mi-harness.com/eur/1941GrandCircuit.pdf
)

-------------------
1949 (http://www.mi-harness.com/eur/GrandCircuit1949.jpg)

----------------------

1955 (http://www.mi-harness.com/eur/1955GrandCircuitSched.jpg)

------------------

1960
GRAND CIRCUIT SCHEDULE
Roosevelt Raceway, Westbury, N. Y (between March 21 May 21)
Rosecroft Raceway, Oxon Hill, Md May 30 June 4
Baltimore Raceway, Baltimore, Md June 6.11
Hazel Park, Hazel Park, Mich June 13 18
Bay State Raceway, Foxboro, Mass June 20 25
Saratoga Raceway, Saratoga Springs, N. Y June 27 July 2
Historic Track, Goshen, N. Y July 4 9
Vernon Downs, Vernon, N. Y. July 11 15
Yonkers Raceway, Yonkers, N. Y July 18 30 (tentative)
Northfield Park, Northfield, O Aug. 1 6
Chicago Downs (Spts. Pk.) Cicero, III Aug. 8 13
Illinois State Fair, Springfield, III Aug. 15 19
Missouri State Fair, Sedalia, Mo Aug. 22 25
Du Quoin State Fair, Du Quoin, Ill. Aug. 29 Sept. 2
Indiana State Fair, Indianapolis, Ind Sept. 5 9
Wolverine Raceway, Livonia, Mich Sept. 12 17
Delaware Co. Fair, Delaware, O Sept. 19.23
Lexington Trots, Lexington, Ky Sept. 28 Oct. 8
Arden Downs, Washington, Pa Oct. 14 15
Suffolk Downs, Boston, Mass Oct. 24 29
Western Harness, Hollywood Park, Calif Nov. 7 12
-------------------------
1961 (same tracks as 1960 with one addition)
Hollywood Park, Inglewood, Calif Nov. 7 12

[markgoldie]

Seems to me that the great Bret Hanover made his way out to Ca. for a GC event, must have been as a 4 year old. They were going a mile and a quarter, I think, and was beaten by True Duane with Chris Boring who set the world record. Is this correct or has my memory failed?

I go back to the days of the great travelling band of free-for-allers who circulated on the East coast. They included (in no particular order), Mighty Tide, the brothers Irvin Paul and Stephan Smith, Adoras Dream, Henry T. Adios, Cold Front, Adios Ronnie, Rex Pick, and Thor Hanover.

[LottaKash]

Seems to me that the great Bret Hanover made his way out to Ca. for a GC event, must have been as a 4 year old. They were going a mile and a quarter, I think, and was beaten by True Duane with Chris Boring who set the world record. Is this correct or has my memory failed?

I go back to the days of the great travelling band of free-for-allers who circulated on the East coast. They included (in no particular order), Mighty Tide, the brothers Irvin Paul and Stephan Smith, Adoras Dream, Henry T. Adios, Cold Front, Adios Ronnie, Rex Pick, and Thor Hanover.

I remember those ones...yikes!, that was a long time ago...I believe that is true Mark, about that race.....Bret Hanover, is my all time-favorite, among the many great harness champions to like ,thru the years..

The first harness horse I ever bet on, was a hoss named "Bill Talley", a win at 5/1, at Yonkers, followed with some other winning bets that same nite, Harry's Laura, and Pocomoonshine.....

I kept betting driver George Phaelan, and kept on losing with him....I wonder why ?..

Btw, does anyone have a knish ?...
best,

[wilderness]

Seems to me that the great Bret Hanover made his way out to Ca. for a GC event, must have been as a 4 year old. They were going a mile and a quarter, I think, and was beaten by True Duane with Chris Boring who set the world record. Is this correct or has my memory failed?


True Duane at Hollywood (http://www.mi-harness.com/publct/Florascope/sulk1266.html). Believe the video may be on Dennis Crane's sight. There were some other stars in that race as well.

I go back to the days of the great travelling band of free-for-allers who circulated on the East coast. They included (in no particular order), Mighty Tide, the brothers Irvin Paul and Stephan Smith, Adoras Dream, Henry T. Adios, Cold Front, Adios Ronnie, Rex Pick, and Thor Hanover.

Irvin Paul is a horse that many have forgotten and he was a top competitor.
Henry T. Adios (http://www.mi-harness.net/publct/hh/drrcostr.html)

[wilderness]

Btw, does anyone have a knish ?...
best,

Order online (http://knishery.com/)

Is the Mrs. handy in the kitchen (http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,knish,FF.html)?

[melman]

In the mid to late 60's I used to see live many a GC event at Brandywine Raceway in Wilmington, Delaware. Not listed, maybe they did not start there in 1960. They sure did have a lot of them in the later half of the decade. Old "Col Dave" used to really beat the drum.

[wilderness]

In the mid to late 60's I used to see live many a GC event at Brandywine Raceway in Wilmington, Delaware. Not listed, maybe they did not start there in 1960. They sure did have a lot of them in the later half of the decade. Old "Col Dave" used to really beat the drum.

Mel,
1960 may have been the 1st year of Brandywine (not verified) and if so they wouldn't have been awarded GC dates or even applied.
The following from the Dec 14, 1960 Harness Horse is without any mention of GC:

BRANDYWINE RACEWAY

Wilmington, Del.-Brandywine Raceway proved a veritable stairway to the stars this past season.

In fact, in the eyes of Brandywine officials and the record 573,098 fans who turned out for the track's longest meet in history-58 whopping nights--the moon literally was reached in almost every phase.
All track records went by the boards, as the phenomenal $600,000 syndicate-owned Adios Butler orbited into space and whizzed around and around with a 1:584/5 mile in winning the $31,600 Liberty Bell Free-For-All Pace with Eddie Cobb UP.

The cracking of the previous mark by one and two-fifths seconds held by Delaware-owned Speedy Pick surpassed the wildest dreams of President and General Manager Howard Miller and his Brandywine associates. True, they gave an added inducement by offering $1,000 to the driver who broke two minutes in this particular race for the first time.

And smash it the "terrific twosome' of Adios Butler and Eddie Cobb did. At the quarter it was :284/5, at the half 1:001/5 and three-quarter, 1:294/5. When the teletimer flashed the 1:584/5, the crowd of 13,734 went simply wild. It was such a spectacular and swift pace that Tar Boy, Speedy Pick , O. F. Brady and Quick Lady finished in that order in two minutes or under.

The trotting mark also fell when I. W. Berkemyer's stouthearted Su Mac Lad took the $34,800 Marquis de Lafayette against the greatest lineup of free-for-allers in the track's history. Su Mac Lad, Stanley Dancer driving, took the track apart with a 2:014/5 trip, breaking Steamin' Demon's record by two-fifths of a second. The six-year-old, going in a field of ten whose winnings totaled $1,379,315, went on to prove to be one of the truly great trotters of the 1960 season.

The Battle of the Brandywine, strictly for three-year-old pacers, was so popular that it was split into two divisions totaling $59,600, each for $29,800. And the winners turned up in two flashy colts-the free-legged Knight Time, owned by Mr. and Mrs. Al Eastin, of Wayne, Michigan, with Leon Boring in the sulky, and Betting Time, owned by Carl Schultze and Sons, of Portsmouth, N. C., Clint Hodgins of Bye Bye Byrd fame, driving.

Knight Time zipped over the course in 2:014/5, his fastest time in a half-mile oval-two-fifths of a second off the best mark for a 3-year-old at Brandywine held by Quick Lady, the 1959 season's sensation here.
Hickory Fire, regally-bred, owned and also bred by Mr. Bowman Brown, Sr., of THE HARNESS HORSE, took the $18,500 George Washington 3-year-old trot. With Billy Haughton at the reins, the longshot Hickory Fire proved far and away the best in 2:051/5.

The night after Hickory Fire won, Dave Legum, the Washington, D. C. realtor, put a new record of 2:003/5 on his 4-year-old Brown Star in an Open Pace before a Saturday crowd of 16,630 who wagered a new betting mark of $759,159. That August 6th night was a memorable one. A record $95,793 was wagered on a single race and $78,594 on the double.

Brandywine's $12,000 Harness Tracks of America Trot proved a stunning upset. Paleface Hanover, owned by Duer, and Turner, of Belle Haven, Va., won in 2:021/5 in a race for 4-year-olds. Billy Myer, of Bridgeville, Del., trainerdriver, had the son of Dean Hanover right for this one, as he beat out Air Record and the Canadian champion, Tie Silk.

For the first time Brandywine held four rich stakes for 2-year-olds, and some of the best competed. Bonbon Hanover won the $14,700 Pocahontas; Harlan Dean the $14,200 Dexter; Miss Sarah Rodney the $13,800 Nancy Hanks, and Hogan Hanover the $14,700 Tom Hal.

Brandywine attracted its best horses ever. Total mutuel play was $30,126,326, nightly average $519,419. Vernon Crank and Alan Myer, two popular reinsmen, won the driving honors, both richly deserved.

Brandywine started off on the right foot on July 9 when 16,634 wagered $674,214, highest mutuel handle here for an inaugural program. And to add lustre to the many shining achievements of the track, Brandywine had the honor of having the Hambletonian record-breaking winner, Blaze Han-over, owned by the S. A. Camp Farm, Shafter, Calif., train and race in this area before going on to Du Quoin.

[wilderness]

Mel,
The 1963 Trotting and Pacing guide says Brandywine opened in 1953.

I've 46 articles with "Brandywine" in the title and neither "GC" or "Grand Circuit are mentioned in 45.

One article "1954" used the term "Grand Circuit like display".

[melman]

Those 2yr old races mentioned where all known as GC event races when I starting attending in 1964. Old Col Dave Herman was the PR guy for a long time and he really put on a show. Crazy dresser. He was one of the first to stage Ostrich racing. :) He somehow even got Stanley to "drive" one. :D

[wilderness]

Mel,
It's entirely possible the GC races took place and my dataset is just absent any references.

I do have gapping holes in my accumulation and despite the quantity of what I have, the quantity is still a "drop in the bucket" as far as overall.

I'll explore some more and make some inquires.

[wilderness]

Mel,
I don't normally jump through these types of hoops, however since your such a sport ;)

All from perspective Trotting and Pacing Guides (USTA) and no clue what specific races or divisions were held.

Brandywine GC
1971 Aug 2-7
1972 June 19-24
1973 June 18-21
1974 June 17-22
1975 June 16-21
1976 Aug 20-25
1977 June 6-11
1978 June 4-11
1979 June 3-10
1980 June 1-8
1981 June 7-14
1982 June 6-13
1983 June 5-12
1984 June 2-10
1985 June 2-9 (3YO)

1986 went to Freestate

[Trotman]

Markgoldie,LottaKash,Ray2000, Wilderness luv you guys cause we remenber when the game was pure somewhat and it meant something. My OPO is when the line was drawn in the sand we became just a statistic,so be it.Win or lose my life has been rewarding and no shirt or executive can take that away and the sooner these young exects realize this the better. Racing is a mess because of greed, tell me different.

[Ray2000]

Yes, Racing is a mess because of greed but it was entirely predictable. Casino owners cozied up to politicians and said let us in your state, we're here to save jobs in the horse industry. Any one who gave it some thought could see that once they got in, eventually they would see the star product (slots) profit compared to the dog product (horse racing) profit and decide they need to dump that dog part of the business.

Harness racing needs to consider 2 possible paths. One is sell the sport as the blue collar answer to "The Sport of Kings"
Emphasize the history, (discussed above in other peoples posts), the character, and somehow create regional competition. "Meadows drivers can kick Northfield drivers butt", 2 month tournament. Random draw on who drives which horse.

The other is to "Go with the Flow". Give the new crop of gamblers what they want, ACTION. Split the purse 2/3-1/3, divie' up the 2/3 part as before, 50/25/12/8/5, but 1/3 of the purse goes to leader at the half. (Watch'm pull at the 3/8s) Take bets on leader at the half, Over/under bets on the time. Cut the time between races to 10 mins max, and card 16 races a night. Have 1 race every night bet blind, no odds or pool sizes shown anywhere, You have to handicap the horses and predict the crowd. OK I'll stop now...a bit off topic... and there's Hockey tonight...

I'm enjoying the replies in this thread, keep them coming.

[melman]

Ray--You had better be careful and I mean VERY careful out there in Western Pa. With your proposed betting changes LottaK is liable to come after you with many weapons. :lol:

[Trotman]

Ray and to all we remember the nights and the stands full and as time passes we see the sport fall apart. Melman brought up Brandywine I used to love The Battle Of Brandywine there used to be six of us that went each year but with the passing of time there's only 3 of us left. We used to drive to Pompano for the early years of the Breeders Crown (best slogan in racing "IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE BREEDERS CROWN") now we have it split between Woodbine/Mohawk and the Meadowlands. Guys n Gals you know I will be playing till they dump my bones in the ground despite the takeout, dwindling pools, and crowds because the sport I love the one thing they can never take from me is my memories. And when I leave they can spread my ashes across the finish line just so I can hear the lies and figure out the truth.

[LottaKash]

Ray--You had better be careful and I mean VERY careful out there in Western Pa. With your proposed betting changes LottaK is liable to come after you with many weapons. :lol:

Good call on the "weapons" Mel.....

RAy, I know where you live.....

In all seriousness, I like the 1/2-mile purse thing, as well as the "blind" betting" thing....I would do it, in fact I would like it much, I think...

best,

[Trotman]

Most things the Darksiders on this site makes sence but it seems nobody is hearing us :confused:

[arno]

I just missed seeing Bret Hanover but I do remember Pocomoonshine driven by Loosh.

Phalen had some ability and loved to go to the lead.
I always bet him after he had won with that same horse the previous week.
He would win 2 in a row with a horse and the horse would be cooked for the year.

First winner I can remember was Bettors Chice driven by a real old time Earle Avery.

[wilderness]

Not too many folks mention Earle Avery today. He had loads of top horses.
Earle Avery and Meadow Skipper (http://www.mi-harness.com/eur/MeadowSkipperEarleAvery.jpg)

[Trotman]

I think one of the best races I witnessed was Aug 69 The Roosevelt International. "The Iceman" Joe O'Brien sits a perfect 2 hole trip with Fresh Yankee behind Une De Mai the great French mare who was setting a real slow pace. O'Brien kept still in the bike and at the last moment wheels out in the stretch to over take Gougeon who couldn't get Une De Mai to react. Gougeon had egg all over his face as a heavy favorite. :ThmbUp:

[wilderness]

Trot,
One website has a bunch of the Old International videos available.

(There are some sites that take great care to avoid and/or reference, however that shouldn't influence others).

Dennis Crane, Dom Rebelo and a few others (film video specialists) have done a remarkable job at converting harness racing video's to digital and making them available for free., While others, take their work, edit out sections and present the output as their own.

[Trotman]

Another few names to the list:

Clint Hodgins
Buddy Gilmour

[sonnyp]

I think one of the best races I witnessed was Aug 69 The Roosevelt International. "The Iceman" Joe O'Brien sits a perfect 2 hole trip with Fresh Yankee behind Une De Mai the great French mare who was setting a real slow pace. O'Brien kept still in the bike and at the last moment wheels out in the stretch to over take Gougeon who couldn't get Une De Mai to react. Gougeon had egg all over his face as a heavy favorite. :ThmbUp:


he cleaned the egg off his face when he and Une De Mai sat in the middle of the track outside of Stanley and Nevele Pride every step of the International and still won.

great memories

[wilderness]

I've tons of material on Clint Hodgins (http://www.canadianhorseracinghalloffame.com/drivers-trainers/1977/Clint_Hodgins.html) and many photo's.

IMO, Clint is not held in high enough esteem today.

Buddy Gilmour married Levi Harner's daughter.
From the 1974 USTA Handbook:

GILMOUR, William (Buddy) BIRTHPLACE: Lucan, Ontario
Westbury, Long Island, N.Y. BIRTHDATE: 7-23-32
From his first start of the year, Buddy Gilmour put it all together in 1973 and the resulting product was a super-season for the 41-year-old Canadian. Final USTA figures in 173 show Gilmour with earnings of $1,918,397 to become only the second man in the history of harness racing ever to top $1.8-million (the other was Herve Filion). Buddy also catalogued 320 victories giving him 3,137 lifetime, ranking him fifth in the sport's all-time standings.
Gilmour, who lives in Westbury with wife Gwen and four children, raced neck-and-neck most of the season with fellow Canadian Herve Filion in quest of national titles in dashes-won and earnings. Since Buddy prefers to limit his racing primarily to the metropolitan New York area Filion was able to retain both titles. Buddy won his second consecutive Al B. White Trophy, which annually goes to the top dash-winner for the year at Roosevelt Raceway. Buddy compiled a record of 156 wins for the season at the Long Island oval, breaking his own record of 150 set in 1970. At Yonkers, for the Westchester track's three 1973 meetings, Gilmour showed 128 firsts, good for fourth place.
Buddy's biggest night of the year came on June 29th at his "home track", Buffalo Raceway. Invited to compete in a special driving derby, with a Cadillac going to the guest teamster who scored the most wins on a ten-race card, Gilmour got off to a less--than-auspicious start, finishing 6th and 4th with his first two horses. He then hit on all cylinders, capturing the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th races.
The 1973 season also saw Gilmour train the greatest horse in his 20-year career.
The sensational FFA pacing star Myakka Prince was purchased in mid-1972 by Buddy for owner George Campos, and the Baron Hanover gelding earned $54,294 that year. In 1973 Myakka Prince tied the Roosevelt track record for aged geldings of 1:59, and showed a record of nine wins, eight seconds, and six thirds in 34 starts and earnings of $166,980. Buddy also had success with Lillian Greene, Leon Nickawampus, Springfield, Shadow Star, Bob Hilton, Demon Jim and Dean Butler.
Buddy attended schools at Ridgeway, Ontario, where he played hockey. He started in the sport with Clint Hodgins, and later worked for Bill Harvey. He married the former Gwen Harner, daughter of Levi Harner, in 1953. He drove his first race at Dufferin Park, Toronto, in 1952, and won his first race with Money Maker that same year. He lost almost his entire stable in a fire at Batavia Downs in 1961.

[sonnyp]

Trot,
One website has a bunch of the Old International videos available.

(There are some sites that take great care to avoid and/or reference, however that shouldn't influence others).

Dennis Crane, Dom Rebelo and a few others (film video specialists) have done a remarkable job at converting harness racing video's to digital and making them available for free., While others, take their work, edit out sections and present the output as their own.


don,

don't want to "put you thru hoops" but will ask.

barry abrahms sent Guts to california (probably los alamitos) for a series. rick keebler drove him. in one leg, Guts made a break and trailed by 30 lengths. he,not only, won the race but set the track record i believe.

i would love to see it again. any idea where i might find it or could you post it ?

again, i'm not lookin to have you do the hoop thing.

thanks

[Trotman]

SonnyP was that not the week before the International where Une De Mai raced wide the whole trip beating Nevele Pride sending Une De Mai into the International as the heavy favorite ?

[sonnyp]

trotman,
i could be wrong, many years ago and memories tend to blur but i thought it was in the international.

the important thing is we remember the likes of Fresh Yankee, Une De Mai and Nevele Pride !!!!

i was at saratoga harness when Nevele Pride set the, then, half-mile record of 1:56.4 in an afternoon card and granting saratoga the title "fastest half-mile in the world".

sooooo many memories

[arno]

he cleaned the egg off his face when he and Une De Mai sat in the middle of the track outside of Stanley and Nevele Pride every step of the International and still won.

great memories

To this day I still think Nevele Pride lost that day because he was off the week before. It was due to a schedule change. I do believe there was an airline strike and the Europeans cound not get to the USA. He was accustomed to racing week after week and Une De Mai didn't need to.

[Trotman]

How about Bob Farrington and Ramblin Willie

[wilderness]

trotman,
i was at saratoga harness when Nevele Pride set the, then, half-mile record of 1:56.4 in an afternoon card and granting saratoga the title "fastest half-mile in the world".

sooooo many memories

Nevele Pride's Saratoga Record (http://www.harnessracing.ws/videos/Nevele_Pride.wmv)

[wilderness]

How about Bob Farrington and Ramblin Willie

There was a book on Willie, multiple periodical articles (perhaps more than any other horse) and this horse raced for a long time (even had tour were he was signing books).

Many, many people saw this horse race difficult races and still remain competitive.

There may even be a replay on Dennis Crane's site (http://www.harnessracing.ws/Harness-Racing-Videos.htm)

[markgoldie]

I remember the Nevele Pride, Un De Mai, and Fresh Yankee races. Seems to me that in addition to the International, they had another race, I think the week after called the Challenge Cup. The idea was to give the foreign-based horses another shot at a decent purse after having spent the considerable amount of money to fly over here. I believe Un de Mai won the International with the incredible (by our standards) ability to sit outside and exhaust the great Nevele Pride. And I think the following week, in the Challenge Cup, Un De Mai was placed out in front, went pedestrian fractions and was out-sprinted by Fresh Yankee.

The logical explanation for the different outcomes was that the French trotters were bred for and raced longer distances. Therefore, they had only moderate (comparatively) speed, but incredible (by our standards) endurance. The unfortunate Stan Dancer believed he was gaining an advantage by keeping the French mare parked out and losing ground, which in American racing was the correct tactic. But he was actually playing right into her strength. O'Brien, on the other hand, did the correct thing, which was to let the French mare have the top, set her own soft fractions, and then out-sprint her to the wire.

As I recall at the time, there was little dispute that Nevele Pride was a superior horse to Fresh Yankee, but by virtue of different race tactics, she did what he couldn't.

[wilderness]

The "jigglin Joe" was a astute tactician ;)

[sonnyp]

don,

thanks again for the memories.

did you happen to notice, as NEVELE PRIDE traveled thru the 3rd turn, how packed the parking lot at that little track was ? these were really great attractions back in those days.

i tend to forget how primative the sulkies and equipment were back then compared to now, making those races that much more amazing.

go back even farther in time to GREYHOUND. just imagine him with modern equipment flying around the meadowlands today. they'd need radar to time him.

[Trotman]

I have fond memories of GREENWOOD RACETRACK during it's summer meet. The cool air coming off the lake while the rest of the city was sweltering in the humidity. The place would be packed. The boys and I would quaff a few cold ones during the afternoon across the road at the Orchard Park then eat a T-Bone steak dinner at Bea's just down the road for $5.95 with soup and pie n coffee all in. The boys and I would hang around the walking ring just outside the paddock talking to all the drivers as they came in or out to race. Ronnie Feagan,Keith Waples,Ron Waples,Bill Wellwood, Bob Carroll, Bill Hicks, Dr. John Hayes I could go on and on

[wilderness]

don,
did you happen to notice, as NEVELE PRIDE traveled thru the 3rd turn, how packed the parking lot at that little track was ? these were really great attractions back in those days.


sonny,
I've heard there was some kind of giveaway promotion when Nevele Pride was at Saratoga. Perhaps a photo. The number given to me (which I don't recall) was rather a large quantity.

I do have a scan of Nevele Pride image that was printed as a sort of painting and passed out at Sportsman's Park.
Funny thing, after scanning the image, the damn thing appears better than most photo's, go figure.

[wilderness]

I have fond memories of GREENWOOD RACETRACK during it's summer meet. The cool air coming off the lake while the rest of the city was sweltering in the humidity. The place would be packed. The boys and I would quaff a few cold ones during the afternoon across the road at the Orchard Park then eat a T-Bone steak dinner at Bea's just down the road for $5.95 with soup and pie n coffee all in. The boys and I would hang around the walking ring just outside the paddock talking to all the drivers as they came in or out to race. Ronnie Feagan,Keith Waples,Ron Waples,Bill Wellwood, Bob Carroll, Bill Hicks, Dr. John Hayes I could go on and on

Trot,
I wished I had seen Greenwood in the old days.
I first went there in March of 1990 after playing the races at Sarnia (Hiawatha) Simo and continued on to Greenwood. I was cashing some nice tickets. Had a weeks vacation, and spent 3-4 days there. Everybody raved about the Greenwood Clubhouse food, however I thought it was pretty bad in 1990. (Imagine that place today with slots!)

The neighborhood around Greenwood has/had all these little cuisines that was reminiscent of NY.

Later that fall (actually Halloween week) spent Sat and Sun at Sarnia, met a friend in London and we went on to Greenwood for the T-Breds, Flamboro on Halloween night (Friday) and Saturday at Mohawk.
Mohawk was still the old 5/8's and my friend just couldn't grasp that all I wanted to do was take in all in and watch the races. Think I made one bet on the whole card ;)

[Trotman]

Don back in the 60's and 70's the place was packed just like Roosevelt and Yonkers in their heyday. You had to line up forever to get one of the best Roast Beef sandwiches you would get anywhere. Best night in my life was there in 72 I owned a few horses and I had one in the first that was a lock one Saturday night 1st half of the double,paid 17.00 onto a 9-2 shot second. Double paid 232.00 the rest of the night was a dream caught Wellwood on a horse that paid 76.00,anyway long story short my best night ever total was winnings 85 cents short of 10 grand.

[sonnyp]

o.k. trotman, you got me started. dr. john hayes, what a great guy. so different in personality from his dad, also a great guy. jr.'s nickname was "Sam" and he was so humble and understated. he loved tim horton donuts and fried chicken at the swiss shalet.

he was a real standup guy. i once told him of a real nice 3 y.o. pacer who was for sale early in the year. i'll be damned, but i can't remember his name. the horse had beaten the older "open" pacers at yonkers but had not been kept eligible to the 3 y.o. classics which meant he would have to have been supplimented at considerable cost.

they were looking for $250,000 for the colt, plus the suppliments made him risky but you just couldn't buy 3 y.o.'s like him. Sam had me check with Campbell, who had driven him, and he gave thumbs up. Sam's owners were gung ho, but conservative by nature, Sam passed, fearing the worst for his owners.

that didn't stop lou guida who bought the colt for his investors. naturally, that colt won some of the big 3 y.o. stakes that year, earned a ton of $$$$ and made guida look like a genius. maybe he was.

Sam felt terrible, but it was his concern for his owners' investment that held him back.

[sonnyp]

sonny,
I've heard there was some kind of giveaway promotion when Nevele Pride was at Saratoga. Perhaps a photo. The number given to me (which I don't recall) was rather a large quantity.

I do have a scan of Nevele Pride image that was printed as a sort of painting and passed out at Sportsman's Park.
Funny thing, after scanning the image, the damn thing appears better than most photo's, go figure.

don,

back in those days, the tyrannical owner of saratoga was ernest (ernie) b. morris. he had a real nice trotter with stanley and i believe there was a promotional picture given out that day.

in those days it was WPS and one DD on the 1&2 race only. morris fought 2 major changes in racing tooth and nail until he died.

1. exotic betting
2. OTB

he was sure these two things would kill racing. i remember one time, after refusing to send entries to OTB, the state threatening to shut him down.to comply, he sent the next card's entries. 64 horses listed in alphabetical order.

you think he knew something ?

[Trotman]

SonnyP you also know that he has one of the dryest fastest wits around. When he was driving if he just won a big race the reporters back then would hustle around to get the story and as fast as they would ask Sam questions he would quickly fire his own questions back at them,total confusion :lol: he'd have most of the reporters walking away scratching their heads not knowing what to write and they knew if they didn't have the right story ol John Sr. would be all over them the next time he saw them :lol: Hell I'm in tears thinking about this :lol:

[wilderness]

don,

in those days it was WPS and one DD on the 1&2 race only. morris fought 2 major changes in racing tooth and nail until he died.

1. exotic betting
2. OTB

you think he knew something ?

I rest his case ;)

There have been hundreds of article published in trade rags.
There have been hundred of researches.
All been going on for more than five decades.

And yet the industry just passed all these insights off as crack pots.

The result is that today not enough people show up in the ovenights to fill the bleachers in a Class D high school game.

[wilderness]

Frank Wiswall was the Saratoga President for years, and anybody that followed Mr. Wiswall surely caught some of the showmanship and wit that Frank Wiswall was known for.

Interesting reading on Frank Wiswall is when Roland Harriman retained Wiswall to oversee the the merging of the four trotting orgs into ONE, the USTA.
The USTA Charter was said to have been laid out by Frank Wiswall in two days and over multiple jiggers of martini's ;)

[sonnyp]

SonnyP you also know that he has one of the dryest fastest wits around. When he was driving if he just won a big race the reporters back then would hustle around to get the story and as fast as they would ask Sam questions he would quickly fire his own questions back at them,total confusion :lol: he'd have most of the reporters walking away scratching their heads not knowing what to write and they knew if they didn't have the right story ol John Sr. would be all over them the next time he saw them :lol: Hell I'm in tears thinking about this :lol:

sam and his dad were 2 of my favorite guys, but did you ever see a father and son so different ?

i will say i enjoyed sr. but im sure sam's personality was a product of his father's overbearing personality.

i've been away from it for years. is sam still active ?

[Trotman]

Yes Sam just last week had 1 out at Woodbine and if I'm not mistaken has 6 or so in training. He has given up the driving but his jokes are still classics.

[sonnyp]

Frank Wiswall was the Saratoga President for years, and anybody that followed Mr. Wiswall surely caught some of the showmanship and wit that Frank Wiswall was known for.

Interesting reading on Frank Wiswall is when Roland Harriman retained Wiswall to oversee the the merging of the four trotting orgs into ONE, the USTA.
The USTA Charter was said to have been laid out by Frank Wiswall in two days and over multiple jiggers of martini's ;)

if he drank martini's he was o.k. with me. (plenty of olives please)

[wilderness]

From Aug 6, 1958 Harness Horse and Saratoga Raceway:

Winner of the third leg of the Empire Pacing Classic, the combination of Amortizor and Eddie Cobb (http:www.mi-harness.com/eur/AmortizorEddieCobbWiswallJimmyCagney.jpg). Presenting trophy are president Frank Wiswall, movie star James Cagney and vice-president Ernest Morris. The Adios stallion owned by Arthur Underhill's Hillside Farm on Long Island also won the other leg of the series at the Spa course.

Ernest B. Morris from June 16, 1948 HH (http:www.mi-harness.com/eur/ErnestBMorris.jpg).

Ernest Morris and Esther Springwood from Aug 5, 1953 HH and Saratoga (http:www.mi-harness.com/eur/ErnestMorrisEstherSpringwood.jpg)

[sonnyp]

o.k. trotman, you got me started. dr. john hayes, what a great guy. so different in personality from his dad, also a great guy. jr.'s nickname was "Sam" and he was so humble and understated. he loved tim horton donuts and fried chicken at the swiss shalet.

he was a real standup guy. i once told him of a real nice 3 y.o. pacer who was for sale early in the year. i'll be damned, but i can't remember his name. the horse had beaten the older "open" pacers at yonkers but had not been kept eligible to the 3 y.o. classics which meant he would have to have been supplimented at considerable cost.

they were looking for $250,000 for the colt, plus the suppliments made him risky but you just couldn't buy 3 y.o.'s like him. Sam had me check with Campbell, who had driven him, and he gave thumbs up. Sam's owners were gung ho, but conservative by nature, Sam passed, fearing the worst for his owners.

that didn't stop lou guida who bought the colt for his investors. naturally, that colt won some of the big 3 y.o. stakes that year, earned a ton of $$$$ and made guida look like a genius. maybe he was.

Sam felt terrible, but it was his concern for his owners' investment that held him back.


just a footnote: i struggled to try to remember this colts name and finally got it. SANDMAN HANOVER purchased by guida after Sam passed on him, won theMESSENGER STAKES in 1989 (a leg of pacing's triple crown) and was prominent in all the other major 3 y.o. classics that year. he bagged over a million dollars in earnings and "that's the way it was".