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gm10
01-19-2010, 10:29 AM
USA: Godolphin have purchased Tahitian Warrior, described by the Daily Racing Form as the "most impressive three-year-old winner thus far" as Gulfstream Park's winter meeting.

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/usa-godolphin-swoop-for-impressive-gulfstream-gelding/673036/international/

VERY impressive horse imo. Watch out for this fella.

the little guy
03-01-2010, 01:26 PM
$2 million for a gelding. He better be good.

Robert Goren
03-01-2010, 01:31 PM
Maybe they have figure out way for him to grow a new set.;)

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 01:35 PM
Like a few times in the past i am :confused: by a Godolphin purchase.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 01:43 PM
Hold on though, they would like to win the Kentucky Derby. Is the horse a contender for the first Saturday in May???

cj
03-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Hold on though, they would like to win the Kentucky Derby. Is the horse a contender for the first Saturday in May???

Not if they ship him to Dubai first.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 01:47 PM
Not if they ship him to Dubai first.



:)

the little guy
03-01-2010, 01:50 PM
Hold on though, they would like to win the Kentucky Derby. Is the horse a contender for the first Saturday in May???


Considering it's March 1st, and he has run in one 6F race, I would have to say I doubt it.....unless you mean a NW1X on the first Saturday in May in either 2010 or 2011.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 01:53 PM
Will the horse stretch out to 10 panels in your opinion TLG??

Ian Meyers
03-01-2010, 01:54 PM
$2 million for a gelding. He better be good.


For those that don't know, this board's Lamboguy owned him first. Sold him to Frank Calabrese last year.

the little guy
03-01-2010, 01:57 PM
Will the horse stretch out to 10 panels in your opinion TLG??


I really know little to nothing about him other than this part of the story. He was impressive breaking his maiden for whatever that's worth.

lamboguy
03-01-2010, 02:01 PM
USA: Godolphin have purchased Tahitian Warrior, described by the Daily Racing Form as the "most impressive three-year-old winner thus far" as Gulfstream Park's winter meeting.

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/usa-godolphin-swoop-for-impressive-gulfstream-gelding/673036/international/

VERY impressive horse imo. Watch out for this fella.i watched him when he was a yearling, i thought that wildcat frankie was better then. frankie just got beat 2 weeks ago.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 02:04 PM
I really know little to nothing about him other than this part of the story. He was impressive breaking his maiden for whatever that's worth.


All i know is what has been posted here.


If they think he will stretch out, he will probably have an entry in one of the KD preps in a few week time.


Which are available to them on Dirt near the end of the month???

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Though not out of the question, Fla Derby is may be a bit soon, but the Wood is about spot on if they think he is a KD horse.

the little guy
03-01-2010, 02:19 PM
Stop. He's not going to be in any of those races.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 02:23 PM
If Godolphin think they have a KD contender, he will be entered in these races TLG and if he does the business they will go KD.



They may be this that and other, but they are not afraid of giving it a crack.

Linny
03-01-2010, 02:28 PM
The al Bastikiyya is listed, not graded so they will be putting all their eggs in the "UAE Derby basket" even if he wins on Thu.

WinterTriangle
03-01-2010, 04:50 PM
godolphin didn't cut a check for fun....horse looks hot, plenty of upside......needs some experience. Pedigree is right, and high % of classic distance stakes winners on both sides.

the little guy
03-01-2010, 04:51 PM
On target as usual.

gm10
03-01-2010, 05:28 PM
On target as usual.

Maybe I got it wrong, but by my calculations the figures he ran @ GP were of very very high quality. The boys in blue MAY HAVE made a wise decision, I hope they got a sound horse when he arrived.

cj
03-01-2010, 05:33 PM
Maybe I got it wrong, but by my calculations the figures he ran @ GP were of very very high quality. The boys in blue MAY HAVE made a wise decision, I hope they got a sound horse when he arrived.

You think a 95 Beyer going 6f makes a 3yo GELDING worth 2 million? No wonder you think they make money.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 05:36 PM
You think a 95 Beyer going 6f makes a 3yo GELDING worth 2 million? No wonder you think they make money.

95 :eek:

Way people were talking i thought he had run a Eskenderreya figure :)

Robert Goren
03-01-2010, 05:40 PM
I wonder many horses got a 95 Beyer for 6F in the last year and how many are worth 2 million. Does anyone know why he was gelded.

gm10
03-01-2010, 05:42 PM
You think a 95 Beyer going 6f makes a 3yo GELDING worth 2 million? No wonder you think they make money.

Sorry, Beyer is not applicable here, I was looking at it differently. You use Brohamer's stuff don't you, that will be better (make sure to take age into account).

Ian Meyers
03-01-2010, 05:44 PM
I wonder many horses got a 95 Beyer for 6F in the last year and how many are worth 2 million. Does anyone know why he was gelded.

They needed to geld him to get him to train. Similar to Funny Cide who was also a Lamboguy purchase.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 05:47 PM
When did this horse run guys??

gm10
03-01-2010, 05:49 PM
When did this horse run guys??

3 Jan 2010 Gulfstream race 9

cj
03-01-2010, 05:52 PM
Sorry, Beyer is not applicable here, I was looking at it differently. You use Brohamer's stuff don't you, that will be better (make sure to take age into account).

I use my own stuff. It really doesn't matter what the rating is, he is still a gelding that won a maiden race at 6f, nothing more.

lamboguy
03-01-2010, 06:00 PM
I use my own stuff. It really doesn't matter what the rating is, he is still a gelding that won a maiden race at 6f, nothing more.we had both wildcat frankie and tahitian warrior, i thought wildcat frankie was better. padua wouldn't pay for frankie, they gave calabreese $2million for the warrior. go figure, money goes right to money i guess

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 06:04 PM
3 Jan 2010 Gulfstream race 9


Ah!!, no wonder he was not on my radar, i didn't crunch the numbers for Sprints on Donn Hcp Day.


Decent figs on my numbers and if he has what Winter Triangle suggests he has, i can see why they spent the money.

cj
03-01-2010, 06:21 PM
Ah!!, no wonder he was not on my radar, i didn't crunch the numbers for Sprints on Donn Hcp Day.


Decent figs on my numbers and if he has what Winter Triangle suggests he has, i can see why they spent the money.

He is still an unproven gelding. If this purchase were made 100 times they might get their money back once or twice.

PaceAdvantage
03-01-2010, 10:05 PM
Sorry, Beyer is not applicable here, I was looking at it differently. You use Brohamer's stuff don't you, that will be better (make sure to take age into account).Why CJ...I do believe you've just been schooled....

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 10:29 PM
Stop. He's not going to be in any of those races.


TLG

I could not get RP site to load earlier



Tahitian Warrior, who was shipped to trainer Kiaran McLaughlin's barn at Palm Meadows, will now be headed for Dubai.



You could have told me he was off to Dubia


Thats probably end of him.

the Bid
03-01-2010, 10:49 PM
Ah!!, no wonder he was not on my radar, i didn't crunch the numbers for Sprints on Donn Hcp Day.

Decent figs on my numbers and if he has what Winter Triangle suggests he has, i can see why they spent the money.

He ran on JAN 3rd, well before the Donn. In fact I think it was opening weekend.

He's been in Dubai for about a month now.

As for his price, I can't blame anyone for selling. A 6f win for a gelding and a $2m offer, well, I'd sign so fast your head would spin.

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 10:57 PM
Ooops a silly mistake by me the bid, i quickly scrolled through PP and saw Quality Road and for some reason my single functioning brain cell came up with Donn Handicap:D

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 11:09 PM
He's been in Dubai for about a month now.


Thinking about it, TLG probably knew this too .

You little devil :)

Charlie D
03-01-2010, 11:48 PM
Reading back through thread, i can now see my one useful brain cell has not even been switched on throughout this thread.

:D

That'll learn me to check stuff out before typing anything.

gm10
03-02-2010, 05:00 AM
I use my own stuff. It really doesn't matter what the rating is, he is still a gelding that won a maiden race at 6f, nothing more.

Do let us know what that rating is.

gm10
03-02-2010, 05:04 AM
Good news by the way. He is entered for a listed 9.5F race on Thursday.

gm10
03-02-2010, 11:05 AM
Good news by the way. He is entered for a listed 9.5F race on Thursday.

Nope he's been taken out of the race. Interesting race btw, with Vale Of York facing Musir.

Tahitian Warrior will run on Friday instead. Frankie Dettori gets the ride.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=500986&r_date=2010-03-05

gm10
03-05-2010, 03:34 AM
Today's the day we get a first indication whether that 2 million was money well spent.

Race 3 @ Meydan.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=500986&r_date=2010-03-05

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 07:47 AM
Today's the day we get a first indication whether that 2 million was money well spent.

Race 3 @ Meydan.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=500986&r_date=2010-03-05this how come i couldn't get the $2million for him? if they came to me first, i would have given them a bargain, i would have let him go for $100k.

gm10
03-05-2010, 09:14 AM
this how come i couldn't get the $2million for him? if they came to me first, i would have given them a bargain, i would have let him go for $100k.

I suppose they wanted to cut out the middle man :)

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 09:31 AM
I suppose they wanted to cut out the middle man :)i am not the middle man, i am the originator. they like our horses because they are trained early and last a long time.

Bobby Seller
03-05-2010, 09:57 AM
odd spot for him here, going 1mile on the turf.

a few ways to look at this:
a-he's thought of as a genuine turf miler
b-this is a training race to develop his route running ability, it will be run normally, and if he happens to show aptitude on the turf, so much the better.
c-training race that will be run to give him "every opportunity" to win

if the race is run straight up, Anzas(30-1) and Frozen Power(8/5) are the most interesting from what i can tell on paper form.

Frozen Power has been running on the synthetic but has back form on the turf. Anzas has decent back turf from and should be fine at a mile.

Charlie D
03-05-2010, 10:05 AM
Tahitian Warrior is a new horse who won his only race on dirt and has been pleasing us at home. He should act on the turf,



http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/dubai-festival-m-f-de-kock-saeed-bin-suroor-preview-bin-suroor-and-de-kock-prime-meydan-classic-hopes/688155/dubaicarnival/

gm10
03-05-2010, 10:16 AM
i am not the middle man, i am the originator. they like our horses because they are trained early and last a long time.

So who are you then?

gm10
03-05-2010, 10:18 AM
odd spot for him here, going 1mile on the turf.

a few ways to look at this:
a-he's thought of as a genuine turf miler
b-this is a training race to develop his route running ability, it will be run normally, and if he happens to show aptitude on the turf, so much the better.
c-training race that will be run to give him "every opportunity" to win

if the race is run straight up, Anzas(30-1) and Frozen Power(8/5) are the most interesting from what i can tell on paper form.

Frozen Power has been running on the synthetic but has back form on the turf. Anzas has decent back turf from and should be fine at a mile.

I've backed Tahitian Warrior at 4/1 but must admit that I am a bit puzzled at this choice of race, too.

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 10:20 AM
So who are you then?
we had tahitian warrior last year at new episode training center, ocala, fl. horse got sold to frank calabreese, he resold it. that's how i know a little bit about this horse.

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 10:26 AM
he should be pertty good on turf, he has a good sized turf foot

gm10
03-05-2010, 10:28 AM
we had tahitian warrior last year at new episode training center, ocala, fl. horse got sold to frank calabreese, he resold it. that's how i know a little bit about this horse.

what do you think of the horse?

gm10
03-05-2010, 10:30 AM
he should be pertty good on turf, he has a good sized turf foot

he showed the type of numbers that I like to see (on his debut)
the distance should not be a problem

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 10:34 AM
he showed the type of numbers that I like to see (on his debut)
the distance should not be a problemthat horse can run on broken glass if he had to.

the little guy
03-05-2010, 10:43 AM
I've backed Tahitian Warrior at 4/1 but must admit that I am a bit puzzled at this choice of race, too.

There were many here that already wanted to be your bookmaker.....but now you've REALLY let the cat out of the bag.

gm10
03-05-2010, 10:47 AM
There were many here that already wanted to be your bookmaker.....but now you've REALLY let the cat out of the bag.

what is your problem anyway, little guy?

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 10:50 AM
look at the weights these horses are carrying!

gm10
03-05-2010, 10:52 AM
look at the weights these horses are carrying!

Yes I was just doing that. Proper weight differences there!!

Charlie D
03-05-2010, 10:53 AM
First since Jan 3, First on Turf, First at distance, so a fair bit to prove today.


Priced at 7-2


:eek: price in my humble opinion and not what i'd call a GOOD investment.



All the best though if your on.

the little guy
03-05-2010, 11:10 AM
The only horse in his first two families that could run at all was very good on the turf. Maria's Mon is a capable turf sire. However, they constantly misunderstand the difference between turf and dirt racing, and have wasted more than a few good horses because of this.

Then again, when you pay $2 million for a gelding, Funny Cide wouldn't even have sold for that much either before or after he won the Derby, I guess misplacement is the least of your worries.

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 11:13 AM
The only horse in his first two families that could run at all was very good on the turf. Maria's Mon is a capable turf sire. However, they constantly misunderstand the difference between turf and dirt racing, and have wasted more than a few good horses because of this.

Then again, when you pay $2 million for a gelding, Funny Cide wouldn't even have sold for that much either before or after he won the Derby, I guess misplacement is the least of your worries.FUNNYCIDE and TAHITIAN WARRIOR came from the exact same training facility

PhantomOnTour
03-05-2010, 11:16 AM
I like the 7-Anzas

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:17 AM
that was a shocker
couldn't keep up after 4F

the little guy
03-05-2010, 11:18 AM
That was some run.

They know how to pick 'em....and how to place 'em.

the little guy
03-05-2010, 11:20 AM
that was a shocker
couldn't keep up after 4F


The shocker would have been a win.

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:20 AM
That was some run.

They know how to pick 'em....and how to place 'em.

I think it's got nothing to do with placing them. That was astonishingly bad, couldn't even keep up with an easy pace.

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:22 AM
The shocker would have been a win.

let it go, dude
your bluff got called but this is a different thread

Dahoss9698
03-05-2010, 11:23 AM
That was some run.

They know how to pick 'em....and how to place 'em.

Well the good news is he beat at least 2 horses home. That should set him up perfect for his next start....in October.

the little guy
03-05-2010, 11:24 AM
let it go, dude
your bluff got called but this is a different thread


What bluff is that?

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:28 AM
What bluff is that?

you pretending to know how much they paid for Hard Spun
you never answered that one, did you

the little guy
03-05-2010, 11:35 AM
you pretending to know how much they paid for Hard Spun
you never answered that one, did you


Yeah, that's what I do, I pretend to know things that I don't know....on a public forum no less.

Good luck with that.

cj
03-05-2010, 11:36 AM
you pretending to know how much they paid for Hard Spun
you never answered that one, did you

Good idea! When you are 1000% wrong about a horse, spin the thread to another topic you were wrong about.

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:42 AM
Good idea! When you are 1000% wrong about a horse, spin the thread to another topic you were wrong about.

Yes, I admit, it looks like I was wrong about Tahitian Warrior.

But for the rest, yours is a very disappointing comment, I have to say. If you were honest, you'd admit that you weren't exactly seeing the full picture wrt Godolphin's business.

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 11:46 AM
i watched him when he was a yearling, i thought that wildcat frankie was better then. frankie just got beat 2 weeks ago.this was my earlier comment about TAHITIAN WARRIOR

cj
03-05-2010, 11:46 AM
Yes, I admit, it looks like I was wrong about Tahitian Warrior.

But for the rest, yours is a very disappointing comment, I have to say. If you were honest, you'd admit that you weren't exactly seeing the full picture wrt Godolphin's business.

Of course I am. Godolphin is trying to win races around the world for prestige. It doesn't matter if they do it through purchase or by breeding the horses themselves, that is the goal as I see it. There is nothing wrong with that, it is their money and they have made a lot of people in this country very rich. To pretend, however, that they are making a profit while doing this seems a little crazy to me.

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:46 AM
Yeah, that's what I do, I pretend to know things that I don't know....on a public forum no less.

Good luck with that.

You are very good are dismissing whatever I write (please know this is nothing personal).

But it would be nice if you actually contributed something instead. Please share this information with us.

lamboguy
03-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Of course I am. Godolphin is trying to win races around the world for prestige. It doesn't matter if they do it through purchase or by breeding the horses themselves, that is the goal as I see it. There is nothing wrong with that, it is their money and they have made a lot of people in this country very rich. To pretend, however, that they are making a profit while doing this seems a little crazy to me.there is no way you can pay millions for horses on a consistent basis and make money doing it.

if these guys didn't exist with these big bankrolls the game would be dead and burried the way things are today.

gm10
03-05-2010, 11:51 AM
Of course I am. Godolphin is trying to win races around the world for prestige. It doesn't matter if they do it through purchase or by breeding the horses themselves, that is the goal as I see it. There is nothing wrong with that, it is their money and they have made a lot of people in this country very rich. To pretend, however, that they are making a profit while doing this seems a little crazy to me.

Godolphin doesn't breed anything (besides resentment).
DARLEY does the breeding.


Ballydoyle don't make the money. Coolmore do.
Ballydoyle race horses. Coolmore breed horses.

Racing horses does not equal breeding horses.
Godolphin does not equal Darley.

What else can I say.

cj
03-05-2010, 12:00 PM
It really doesn't matter what name they put on the separate divisions, it is still the same people. I understand they have different names and that I use them interchangeably. I guess I shouldn't do that, not that it really matters.

For some reason you seem to think I hate them. Why would anyone resent Godolphin? All they do is spend ridiculous sums of money in this country, and often times they way, way, way overpay.

I don't, I really don't care one way or the other. I'm just curious why you seem to be their number one cheerleader.

gm10
03-05-2010, 12:08 PM
It really doesn't matter what name they put on the separate divisions, it is still the same people. I understand they have different names and that I use the interchangeably. I guess I shouldn't do that, not that it really matters.

For some reason you seem to think I hate them. I don't, I really don't care one way or the other. I'm just curious why you seem to be their number one cheerleader.

Because

a) I like how they treat their horses (and this I know for a fact)
b) even if you (not you personally) don't like Sheik Mo and his beliefs, he is an honorable man and wants to help the sport
c) as I mentioned before I have indirectly done some work for them, so I guess I am a bit biased
d) I was mainly just frustrated that people do not see the difference between the two after having explained it multiple times

castaway01
03-05-2010, 12:14 PM
Because

a) I like how they treat their horses (and this I know for a fact)
b) even if you (not you personally) don't like Sheik Mo and his beliefs, he is an honorable man and wants to help the sport
c) as I mentioned before I have indirectly done some work for them, so I guess I am a bit biased
d) I was mainly just frustrated that people do not see the difference between the two after having explained it multiple times

Not that CJ needs my help refuting you, but since you've posted the same thing about 20 times, do you really think Godolphin or Darley makes any money? They lose a ton of cash and they don't care (witness Dubai's actual finances, where everyone thought the country was rolling in oil money but instead is barely staying afloat with mountains of debt). They are in it for the prestige and the winner's circle photos, which is fine if you've got money to burn, but let's not pretend they don't waste tons of cash, just like they did the $2 million on this gelding.

gm10
03-05-2010, 12:33 PM
Not that CJ needs my help refuting you, but since you've posted the same thing about 20 times, do you really think Godolphin or Darley makes any money? They lose a ton of cash and they don't care (witness Dubai's actual finances, where everyone thought the country was rolling in oil money but instead is barely staying afloat with mountains of debt). They are in it for the prestige and the winner's circle photos, which is fine if you've got money to burn, but let's not pretend they don't waste tons of cash, just like they did the $2 million on this gelding.

Of course this was about prestige - who ever denied that? Everything in racing is about prestige and ego: owners, breeders, jockeys, bettors.
If Godolphin could have the KD in their stable, it would be a massive publicity boost and good for attracting new customers for Darley. Buying this gelding is just a one-time execution of a long-term strategy. You wouldn't judge a venture capitalist on the basis of one investment would you.


Anyway, I'm done giving arguments to people who don't want to listen but just tell me that I'm wrong, while they don't even know the basic facts (like the one that Dubai isn't even a country).

the little guy
03-05-2010, 12:45 PM
Sadly we are listening.....and there's no beef....only cheerleading.

I have no resentment whatsoever towards Godolphin ( or their alias Darley ) and have greatly appreciated many of their fine horses. However, that doesn't mean we buy into to the BS you are spewing.

Bobby Seller
03-05-2010, 01:17 PM
so TW probably got something out of the race.
Only watched it once, but he appeared to be held up in the rear for one run.

This could be educational, but i'm not an advocate in running a horse continuously on the wrong surface with little to no chance at flattering his natural talent for too many consecutive races.

Unfortunately for Godolphin, TW will not be an true graded performer on synthetic either.

If logic prevails he will be sent to the US.

gm10
03-05-2010, 01:25 PM
so TW probably got something out of the race.
Only watched it once, but he appeared to be held up in the rear for one run.

This could be educational, but i'm not an advocate in running a horse continuously on the wrong surface with little to no chance at flattering his natural talent for too many consecutive races.

Unfortunately for Godolphin, TW will not be an true graded performer on synthetic either.

If logic prevails he will be sent to the US.

It was so bad that even if it was for educational purposes, they must be disappointed.

But it's difficult for a horse, new country, new surface, new trainer, new distance. new running style (held up in the back). Maybe he had other problems today - who knows? Certainly deserves a second chance, hopefully on the turf again.

Bobby Seller
03-05-2010, 01:30 PM
It was so bad that even if it was for educational purposes, they must be disappointed.

not necessarily.

They got him into a race... he got to rate and he got to make a run.

If he came out healthy, it's a good thing.

You just don't want him to get "conditioned" if such a thing is possible.

He wasn't going to do anything today unless by some chance he happened to be a turf miler or if they all held reins back in a very controlled training race. You can't really be disappointed. However, he answered questions about his race type and surface preference, so hopefully they listen.

the little guy
03-05-2010, 01:38 PM
He made a run?

Not exactly.

Dahoss9698
03-05-2010, 03:50 PM
Here's a bright idea. Let's take a horse that showed ability sprinting on dirt. Instead of seeing if he'll stretchout on the surface he already showed promise on, let's try him on turf. At the same time let's take away his main attribute (positional speed) and hold him back.

Yeah, that makes sense. At the same time people are not only saying it was a good thing, but also hopefully he stays on turf. Is it me?

gm10
03-06-2010, 06:54 AM
not necessarily.

They got him into a race... he got to rate and he got to make a run.

If he came out healthy, it's a good thing.

You just don't want him to get "conditioned" if such a thing is possible.

He wasn't going to do anything today unless by some chance he happened to be a turf miler or if they all held reins back in a very controlled training race. You can't really be disappointed. However, he answered questions about his race type and surface preference, so hopefully they listen.

I know what you mean, in fact I think this is a good idea and certainly one that Godolphin adhere to quite frequently, but my main problem is that he was being scrubbed along after 5F when the pace was still slow. Learning how to rate on an unfamiliar surface should not be that taxing on a horse who ran the debut that he ran.

Relwob Owner
03-06-2010, 07:17 AM
Godolphin doesn't breed anything (besides resentment).
DARLEY does the breeding.


Ballydoyle don't make the money. Coolmore do.
Ballydoyle race horses. Coolmore breed horses.

Racing horses does not equal breeding horses.
Godolphin does not equal Darley.

What else can I say.



You continue to refute the notion that they dont make money but you have admitted you have no stats to back it up.....until you do, your insistence on maintatining their profitability remains a weak argument and chips away again and again at you and your argument's credibility

lamboguy
03-06-2010, 08:46 AM
Here's a bright idea. Let's take a horse that showed ability sprinting on dirt. Instead of seeing if he'll stretchout on the surface he already showed promise on, let's try him on turf. At the same time let's take away his main attribute (positional speed) and hold him back.

Yeah, that makes sense. At the same time people are not only saying it was a good thing, but also hopefully he stays on turf. Is it me?they just paid $2milliion for a horse that won on a speed favoring track in gulfstream. i know a little about this horse, we sold him for $60k which is big money to us. the horse did have some ability. these same people were offered wildcat frankie after he won his maiden race @calder, he ran an impressive race over a pretty dead surface. they could have had frankie for $300k and to me i thought frankie was a better horse.

running tahitian warrior on the turf must have been a panic job. they bought the horse to run at the meydan meet, they probably thought that he wasn't training that well and would look good on the turf against weak horses.

in hindsight, they probably should have backed off the horse for 3 months.and then come back with him later in the summer maybe in saratoga. this horse had been in nonstop training for about 16 months and probably needed to get his head together.

Charlie D
03-06-2010, 09:10 AM
Bobby

Even allowing for the negatives you have to say that his Dubai debut was very disappointing. However, i'm not putting him in "no good" tray just yet.

Robert Goren
03-06-2010, 10:00 AM
Here's a bright idea. Let's take a horse that showed ability sprinting on dirt. Instead of seeing if he'll stretchout on the surface he already showed promise on, let's try him on turf. At the same time let's take away his main attribute (positional speed) and hold him back.

Yeah, that makes sense. At the same time people are not only saying it was a good thing, but also hopefully he stays on turf. Is it me?Nope:)

Bobby Seller
03-06-2010, 11:14 AM
Bobby

Even allowing for the negatives you have to say that his Dubai debut was very disappointing. However, i'm not putting him in "no good" tray just yet.
Like I said, I don't really feel that way.
Again I can only speak from my perspective, and the insight that I have. Not anything else.


This horse wasn't going to do shit on the turf unless by random good fortune he loved the turf and his power he displayed in the debut somehow transferred into a strong miler. He was NOT a turf horse who happened to have a great debut on the dirt, or a very versatile looking runner who happened to have a great debut on the dirt. It was completely up in the air whether he would take relish the turf, and it was unlikely.

He wasn't going to be near the exacta unless blessed with the luck i mention above, or if they all held back the reigns well before the turn in an extreme example of a training race. This was pretty obvious before the race.
The horses who were going to win were the turf horses. It was a pretty lousy field aside from Frozen Power, Anzas, the place horse who was on the pace and one maybe two others with turf experience at real tracks with at least moderate purses.

I expected Tahitian Warrior to finish between midpack and last. He finished closer to last than midpack, but the race didn't collapse, and Anzas who at least appeared very strong on paper form only managed to get up to 7th with his run. Anzas was supposed to compete for the win and crush Tahitian Warrior.

The only thing disappointing would be if he was hurt in the race, or if he has been hurt since his debut. I didn't happen to know that either way.
Obviously they need to get his ass back to the USA and patiently get him back to his comfort zone. He really should have never been brought to the Carnival. You can tell now that he isn't a synthetic horse either - he isn't that versatile. Maybe if Keeneland gets a little speed favoring like it did a couple times last year, but he was nice in his debut. He could possibly be an allowance or stakes horse on the dirt.

gm10
05-14-2010, 05:24 AM
Tahitian Warrior is back in training at Belmont. Had two published works this month.

cj
05-14-2010, 09:50 AM
Tahitian Warrior is back in training at Belmont. Had two published works this month.

Is he still a gelding?

SouthFlorida
05-14-2010, 11:39 AM
Is he still a gelding?


That's the best question I have read in a long time :ThmbUp:

FenceBored
05-29-2010, 02:08 PM
RE: profitability of Darley
THE Australian horse-breeding operation of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum posted another heavy loss, finishing last year $27 million in the red as it cuts jobs to boost the bottom line
-- http://www.smh.com.au/business/dubai-rulers-equine-venture-faces-testing-time-after-27m-loss-20100528-wle3.html

cj
05-29-2010, 03:54 PM
Shocking news.

cj
05-30-2010, 03:46 PM
I guess gm10 is still in shock.

gm10
05-30-2010, 03:52 PM
I guess gm10 is still in shock.

you can't resist bringing this back to the top of the board can you
:rolleyes: I wonder why

I am not familiar with Darley Australia but I can tell you that it is not going to disappear and that it is not reflective of their European operations

cj
05-30-2010, 05:11 PM
I am not familiar with Darley Australia but I can tell you that it is not going to disappear and that it is not reflective of their European operations

Really? You can tell us that? Please tell us how much they made then. Feel free to include the negative sign in front of the number.

gm10
05-30-2010, 05:47 PM
Really? You can tell us that? Please tell us how much they made then. Feel free to include the negative sign in front of the number.

I don't know those numbers as you of course know very well.
What is it about this topic that winds you up so much?

lamboguy
05-30-2010, 07:54 PM
i sold the horse for $60k, i guess i lost more than anyone on this deal, i lost about $2 million!

cj
05-30-2010, 08:15 PM
I get wound up about some things, but this isn't one of them. I still find the whole buying a gelding and not knowing it thing hilarious.

PaceAdvantage
05-31-2010, 03:37 AM
What is it about this topic that winds you up so much?I think I see where this might be headed...

gm10
05-31-2010, 03:47 AM
I get wound up about some things, but this isn't one of them. I still find the whole buying a gelding and not knowing it thing hilarious.

They have medical checks done on each horse that you can't even afford. What makes you think they didn't see he was a gelding?

PaceAdvantage
05-31-2010, 03:47 AM
They have medical checks done on each horse that you can't even afford.Another stellar statement to add to your scrapbook.

gm10
05-31-2010, 03:49 AM
Another stellar statement to add to your scrapbook.

Why?

PaceAdvantage
05-31-2010, 03:50 AM
Why?Because you presume to know what cj can and can't afford, for starters.

gm10
05-31-2010, 04:05 AM
Because you presume to know what cj can and can't afford, for starters.

I probably should have added that this wasn't to be taken literally.
It's a horse, and I assume that cj doesn't any equine examinations done on him, so the question of whether he could afford them or not is irrelevant.

So, in fact, I was just saying that their horses go through thorough medical examinations when they join the yard.

lamboguy
05-31-2010, 06:50 AM
They have medical checks done on each horse that you can't even afford. What makes you think they didn't see he was a gelding?
i know a little about this one, they did the same vet check that any clown would have done in purchasing a $60k horse and pay $2million for. they measured the heart, did bone scans and scoped the horse. and walked the horse to see if he toed in or out. the whole vet check including x-rays might have cost them $300 depending upon how badly the vets rob those people.

gm10
05-31-2010, 08:39 AM
i know a little about this one, they did the same vet check that any clown would have done in purchasing a $60k horse and pay $2million for. they measured the heart, did bone scans and scoped the horse. and walked the horse to see if he toed in or out. the whole vet check including x-rays might have cost them $300 depending upon how badly the vets rob those people.

There are more tests recorded for the horse than just those.

lamboguy
05-31-2010, 08:47 AM
There are more tests recorded for the horse than just those.
that's not what i was told on this one. maybe you might elaborate and go further into the testing procedures of the horses that godolohin does before they purchase their race hores.

i am not knocking godolphin, because they do run a great program. the only reason they bought tahitian warrior is becasue the horse's that we put out all have tremendous bottom's on them, and they figure that this is the type of horse that fits into their training program and that they might be able to improve upon.

gm10
05-31-2010, 08:50 AM
that's not what i was told on this one. maybe you might elaborate and go further into the testing procedures of the horses that godolohin does before they purchase their race hores.

i am not knocking godolphin, because they do run a great program. the only reason they bought tahitian warrior is becasue the horse's that we put out all have tremendous bottom's on them, and they figure that this is the type of horse that fits into their training program and that they might be able to improve upon.

That was one of the reasons, yes. He digested the transfer quite well, which is not always the case (some horses are complete wrecks when they join).

I will see if I can post some more stuff about the medical tests tomorrow.

cj
05-31-2010, 12:42 PM
They have medical checks done on each horse that you can't even afford. What makes you think they didn't see he was a gelding?

Forgetting the silliness of the first statement, I'll move to the second. They already ADMITTED they didn't know and tried to mediate a lower price on the horse after the sale.

gm10
05-31-2010, 02:11 PM
Forgetting the silliness of the first statement, I'll move to the second. They already ADMITTED they didn't know and tried to mediate a lower price on the horse after the sale.

You (amazingly) didn't know the difference between Godolphin and Darley. So I think I'll stick to my own sources.

And by the way, for a guy who pretends to know a lot, you post little in the way of what you think will be a good horse of what horse is a good bet. You seem to specialize in correcting others.

the little guy
05-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Am I the only one thinking of the word Dullard?

gm10
05-31-2010, 02:57 PM
Am I the only one thinking of the word Dullard?

Not me, I am thinking "pathetic". You, I mean.

the little guy
05-31-2010, 03:05 PM
Not me, I am thinking "pathetic". You, I mean.

I wouldn't argue with you wearing that label either.

gm10
05-31-2010, 03:09 PM
I wouldn't argue with you wearing that label either.

aaaah you are just upset that I called your bluff on Street Sense
get over it!

Dahoss9698
05-31-2010, 03:12 PM
Am I the only one thinking of the word Dullard?

No

gm10
05-31-2010, 03:15 PM
No

:D

there you are again! magic!

Dahoss9698
05-31-2010, 03:21 PM
:D

there you are again! magic!

For a guy who pretends to know a lot, you post little in the way of what you think will be a good horse or what horse is a good bet. You seem to specialize in being incorrect.

gm10
05-31-2010, 03:32 PM
For a guy who pretends to know a lot, you post little in the way of what you think will be a good horse or what horse is a good bet. You seem to specialize in being incorrect.

At least I give it a shot. I don't know what you do here.

Dahoss9698
05-31-2010, 03:56 PM
At least I give it a shot. I don't know what you do here.

You should try harder. Aside from correcting you (a full time job really), I do give out some winners.

cj
05-31-2010, 04:46 PM
You (amazingly) didn't know the difference between Godolphin and Darley. So I think I'll stick to my own sources.

And by the way, for a guy who pretends to know a lot, you post little in the way of what you think will be a good horse of what horse is a good bet. You seem to specialize in correcting others.

False, but feel free to make stuff up. It seems to be going around here. I have posted plenty here. If you want us to believe they paid that much for the horse knowing he was a gelding, there isn't much hope for you.

As for the second part, I have many customers and since my picks are based on my own numbers, it isn't really fair to give them away for free to others. I've been challenged a few other times here and I've never come away looking bad. I am sure you can find them if you search hard enough.

the little guy
05-31-2010, 04:57 PM
aaaah you are just upset that I called your bluff on Street Sense
get over it!


And to think, I forgot you were the guy who has no idea what Godolphin paid for those stallions, yet felt an incessant need to argue his knowledgeless opinion anyway.

Keep up the fine work.

Dahoss9698
06-02-2010, 04:38 PM
Tahitian Warrior is running in an allowance race at Belmont on Saturday. Race came up pretty solid with Trappe Shot and recent maiden winner Zio Tony. Should be interesting to see how the ill advised trip to Dubai has affected him.

gm10
06-02-2010, 04:41 PM
And to think, I forgot you were the guy who has no idea what Godolphin paid for those stallions, yet felt an incessant need to argue his knowledgeless opinion anyway.

Keep up the fine work.

I stand by it ... your price of 100 million for Street Sense and Hard Spun is wrong.

gm10
06-02-2010, 04:45 PM
False, but feel free to make stuff up. It seems to be going around here. I have posted plenty here. If you want us to believe they paid that much for the horse knowing he was a gelding, there isn't much hope for you.


It pains me but I can't submit the evidence which would disprove your belief. Maybe I can submit some details which lamboguy can verify. Not this week, though.

As for the second part, I have many customers and since my picks are based on my own numbers, it isn't really fair to give them away for free to others. I've been challenged a few other times here and I've never come away looking bad. I am sure you can find them if you search hard enough.

I wasn't thinking about your business. I don't know it and I would not comment on it if I did. I just can't recall you saying, this is a good 2yo to look out for, this is a good bet. Maybe you have, but I've read hundreds of your posts and I just can't recall that you did.

gm10
06-02-2010, 04:51 PM
Tahitian Warrior is running in an allowance race at Belmont on Saturday. Race came up pretty solid with Trappe Shot and recent maiden winner Zio Tony. Should be interesting to see how the ill advised trip to Dubai has affected him.

Don't think he had put in a lot of work up to about 3 weeks ago. But I'm not sure.

gm10
08-17-2010, 05:50 AM
Tahitian Warrior will be starting in a graded stakes next. I'm glad they have him and not Wildcat Frankie :). Even if he allegedly cost 2 million (according to those in the know :D ).

Charlie D
08-17-2010, 06:38 AM
Forgot about this horse.

Hope you guys have filled your boots in these Allowance races he's ran in :)

Stevie Belmont
08-17-2010, 09:30 AM
How good is Trappe Shot? He blasted Tahitian Warrior who we know is the goods.

Well how good is Lookin At Lucky? Lookin At Lucky is lookin better and better to me at this point. Baffert knows what kind of horse he has. And he is still maturing as a race horse.

I look forward to seeing both Trappe Shot & Lookin At Lucky in thier next race, as well as Tahitian Warrior's next run.

The King's Bishop looks like it could be super this year. I hope Discreetly Mine, Comedero and Out Of Recpect all show up there.

PhantomOnTour
08-17-2010, 09:46 AM
Why did Tahitian run in an Alw yesterday when the King's Bishop is only about 13 days away? Tells me he is not up to snuff as he would have been entered in the Gr1, and I would be quite surprised if he wheeled back in the King's Bishop...and if he does I will bet against him.

gm10
08-17-2010, 12:32 PM
How good is Trappe Shot? He blasted Tahitian Warrior who we know is the goods.

Well how good is Lookin At Lucky? Lookin At Lucky is lookin better and better to me at this point. Baffert knows what kind of horse he has. And he is still maturing as a race horse.

I look forward to seeing both Trappe Shot & Lookin At Lucky in thier next race, as well as Tahitian Warrior's next run.

The King's Bishop looks like it could be super this year. I hope Discreetly Mine, Comedero and Out Of Recpect all show up there.

TW was not 100% yet when he met Trappe Shot.
The Amsterdam was a serious option but it came too quick.

the little guy
08-17-2010, 12:45 PM
TW was not 100% yet when he met Trappe Shot.
The Amsterdam was a serious option but it came too quick.


The Amsterdam came up too quick but they ran him in a NW2X 12 days before the Grade 1 King's Bishop?

You should have stayed on your self declared exile.

speed
08-17-2010, 01:51 PM
The Amsterdam came up too quick but they ran him in a NW2X 12 days before the Grade 1 King's Bishop?

You should have stayed on your self declared exile.

But it was guaranteed $$$ towards reducing the purchase price :)

gm10
08-17-2010, 03:17 PM
The Amsterdam came up too quick but they ran him in a NW2X 12 days before the Grade 1 King's Bishop?

You should have stayed on your self declared exile.

why are you dumb as well as a liar?

speed
08-17-2010, 03:28 PM
why are you dumb as well as a liar?

Are those his best qualities as well? :)

Striker
08-17-2010, 04:15 PM
False, but feel free to make stuff up. It seems to be going around here. I have posted plenty here. If you want us to believe they paid that much for the horse knowing he was a gelding, there isn't much hope for you.

As for the second part, I have many customers and since my picks are based on my own numbers, it isn't really fair to give them away for free to others. I've been challenged a few other times here and I've never come away looking bad. I am sure you can find them if you search hard enough.
CJ- They knew he was a gelding when they paid 2m for him. Was it ridiculous to pay that much for him, absolutely, but your sources are wrong here. I was right next to FCC(Frank Calabrese) 2-3 weeks ago when he was talking about this with his racing manager and Joe Kristufek, Arlington's morning line odds maker. I would be happy to give you Joe K's email and you could get verification about this from him also if you still want to believe your sources.

gm10
08-17-2010, 04:32 PM
CJ- They knew he was a gelding when they paid 2m for him. Was it ridiculous to pay that much for him, absolutely, but your sources are wrong here. I was right next to FCC(Frank Calabrese) 2-3 weeks ago when he was talking about this with his racing manager and Joe Kristufek, Arlington's morning line odds maker. I would be happy to give you Joe K's email and you could get verification about this from him also if you still want to believe your sources.

Did they specifically say that they received 2 million for him?
The rest of the post I absolutely agree with.

PaceAdvantage
08-17-2010, 04:38 PM
why are you dumb as well as a liar?What did he lie about?

As far as being dumb, he has been seen in public wearing a dunce cap in the past, so we already have that part covered...

the little guy
08-17-2010, 04:46 PM
What did he lie about?

As far as being dumb, he has been seen in public wearing a dunce cap in the past, so we already have that part covered...


I'm just in shock that there isn't a complete outrage here about me being falsely accused of lying. I mean, didn't I just recently read that there would be in the incredibly unlikely event that I was unfairly maligned here?

Then again, considering gm10's record of accuracy here, being called a liar by him is a compliment.

gm10
08-17-2010, 05:41 PM
What did he lie about?

As far as being dumb, he has been seen in public wearing a dunce cap in the past, so we already have that part covered...

the liar part has been covered many times
if we agree on the dumb part, there's nothing else to say

cj
08-17-2010, 05:45 PM
CJ- They knew he was a gelding when they paid 2m for him. Was it ridiculous to pay that much for him, absolutely, but your sources are wrong here. I was right next to FCC(Frank Calabrese) 2-3 weeks ago when he was talking about this with his racing manager and Joe Kristufek, Arlington's morning line odds maker. I would be happy to give you Joe K's email and you could get verification about this from him also if you still want to believe your sources.

Could be right, but could be just covering their tracks. You think Calabrese wants to give those guys a reason not to buy from him in the future? I know I wouldn't since they are so easily fleeced.

Actually, given GM10's history here, the fact he states they knew he was a gelding is very strong evidence in my favor. The defense rests.

the little guy
08-17-2010, 05:50 PM
the liar part has been covered many times
if we agree on the dumb part, there's nothing else to say


You are more than just the run of the mill internet creep.

Note to Gary Z.......nobody is running to my defense here.

I'm shocked.

PaceAdvantage
08-17-2010, 05:55 PM
the liar part has been covered many timesHumor me and cover it one more time, if you can.

cj
08-17-2010, 05:57 PM
You are more than just the run of the mill internet creep.

Note to Gary Z.......nobody is running to my defense here.

I'm shocked.

Again, the very fact GM10 stated it makes the opposite true. There is nothing to defend.

InsideThePylons-MW
08-17-2010, 05:58 PM
nobody is running to my defense here.

I'm shocked.

the little guy is many things, but he's not a liar

;)

gm10
08-18-2010, 11:50 AM
well if CJ, PA and TLG are saying I'm wrong, why would I even bother argue my case
the judges and juries of this board have spoken

for anybody who wants to know the truth, they did not pay 2 mill, and they knew all too well he was a gelding
the reasons why CJ and TLG keep stating rumours to the contrary as facts are beyond me and frankly, not of interest to me

Striker
08-18-2010, 02:50 PM
well if CJ, PA and TLG are saying I'm wrong, why would I even bother argue my case
the judges and juries of this board have spoken

for anybody who wants to know the truth, they did not pay 2 mill, and they knew all too well he was a gelding
the reasons why CJ and TLG keep stating rumours to the contrary as facts are beyond me and frankly, not of interest to me
I just spoke with Joe Kristufek who knows about the deal here and is close with Frank Calabrese. He told me the facts are that they knew EXACTLY what they were getting and that he was gelded and that they did in fact pay 2 million for him.

gm10
08-18-2010, 04:22 PM
I just spoke with Joe Kristufek who knows about the deal here and is close with Frank Calabrese. He told me the facts are that they knew EXACTLY what they were getting and that he was gelded and that they did in fact pay 2 million for him.

I just spoke with one of Mo's cousins and he told me they paid half a million for him and they are excited about him.

(But I'm glad we are in agreement about them knowing they were buying a gelding. I find it baffling that some well-respected members here were trying to tell us the opposite. How stupid do they think people are?)

speed
08-18-2010, 04:33 PM
I just spoke with one of Mo's cousins and he told me they paid half a million for him and they are excited about him.

(But I'm glad we are in agreement about them knowing they were buying a gelding. I find it baffling that some well-respected members here were trying to tell us the opposite. How stupid do they think people are?)

LMAO

Dahoss9698
08-18-2010, 04:40 PM
I just spoke with one of Mo's cousins and he told me they paid half a million for him and they are excited about him.

(But I'm glad we are in agreement about them knowing they were buying a gelding. I find it baffling that some well-respected members here were trying to tell us the opposite. How stupid do they think people are?)

Is this the same cousin that told you Godolphin make a profit? Might want to stop listening to him.

Just a thought.

Charlie D
08-18-2010, 04:42 PM
Anyone know Simon Crisfords email addy or mobile number???

gm10
08-18-2010, 05:03 PM
Is this the same cousin that told you Godolphin make a profit? Might want to stop listening to him.

Just a thought.

hey when do you want to start that handicapping contest? team Thaskalos + gm are ready, how about you and CJ?

Dahoss9698
08-18-2010, 05:11 PM
hey when do you want to start that handicapping contest? team Thaskalos + gm are ready, how about you and CJ?

You might want to check with your partner again.

Striker
08-18-2010, 05:41 PM
I just spoke with one of Mo's cousins and he told me they paid half a million for him and they are excited about him.

(But I'm glad we are in agreement about them knowing they were buying a gelding. I find it baffling that some well-respected members here were trying to tell us the opposite. How stupid do they think people are?)
I came here to give you facts from people that are on the local scene that personally know the seller involved. I actually was wondering about the comments that have been made about you in this thread. Not anymore.

gm10
08-19-2010, 06:09 AM
I came here to give you facts from people that are on the local scene that personally know the seller involved. I actually was wondering about the comments that have been made about you in this thread. Not anymore.

Why is it that people come on here to 'give me facts' without even considering that I may not need them? I'm not pretending to know a lot about other deals, but I know about this one. I know know.

Which, apparently, is good enough reason to receive quite grave insults from people like TLG and CJ - who are very quiet now that another source confirms that Godolphin knew they were buying a gelding.

I think if you do some research you will find that I have not told one lie on this board. I may have rubbed people the wrong way and told them that they were stupid or pathetic, but a liar I am not.

(Of course I did not call Mo's cousin btw, that was a joke, not a lie)

Fager Fan
08-19-2010, 06:52 AM
There are more tests recorded for the horse than just those.

There are? Because what was listed is out of the norm.

Horses bought as racehorses (not yearlings or 2yos in training) don't usually have their heart measured since the racing already gives them a good enough idea on the heart. That said, maybe they measure the heart, though it'd be pretty much of a waste of $500 at that point.

A bone scan would be very out of the ordinary. I've never heard of a horse going in for a bone scan as part of a pre-purchase exam. It is too invasive, expensive, and only needed if a horse is showing problems.

X-rays and a scope are what is customary along with a physical going over of the horse. If anything gives the vet pause, then the vet may talk to the owner about doing an ultrasound or other diagnostic. Vets rarely get into the conformation of the animal, that has usually been done by the prospective buyer or someone on his behalf before signing the contract (the vetting is done after the contract's signed).

A normal pre-purchase would also include checking the testicles and noting any abnormalities. Given, though, that the vet would think the prospective buyer already knows about the horse being a gelding given that they've inspected the horse and signed a contract to purchase him, mentioning "You do know he's gelded?" might not come up when he calls the owner to tell him "the horse passed." It'd be on the written report though.

I'm curious, GM, what you claim Darley/Godolphin does differently than normal regarding pre-purchase vet exams? You didn't flinch at the notion that they have the heart scanned (possible but perhaps not likely) and get bone scans (not likely at all) and claimed they have much more than this done.

cj
08-19-2010, 09:25 AM
Why is it that people come on here to 'give me facts' without even considering that I may not need them? I'm not pretending to know a lot about other deals, but I know about this one. I know know.

Which, apparently, is good enough reason to receive quite grave insults from people like TLG and CJ - who are very quiet now that another source confirms that Godolphin knew they were buying a gelding.

I think if you do some research you will find that I have not told one lie on this board. I may have rubbed people the wrong way and told them that they were stupid or pathetic, but a liar I am not.

(Of course I did not call Mo's cousin btw, that was a joke, not a lie)

Grave insults? Really? You way took the cake on that one a few months ago, whatever a grave insult is.

For the record, I've heard others now confirm the part about not knowing he was a gelding. I believe it now more than ever. It is possible they knew, but I'm certainly not taking the word of an anonymous nobody internet poster over several well respected people in the industry.

classhandicapper
08-19-2010, 10:15 AM
I don't know a damn thing about this deal, but I find it hard to believe that even a mildly sophisticated buyer would not know that the horse was a gelding.

When I bought a horse (and reviewed a few others) I got some fairly thorough vet reports to look at, pictures, PPs and videos if the horses was raced, and had discussions with people that examined the horse. I was far from a sophisticated buyer, but I knew I wasn't getting a gelding.

As to the purchase price, it's at least possible that multiple sources are lying to make the deal look better or worse for someone.

gm10
08-19-2010, 11:08 AM
Grave insults? Really? You way took the cake on that one a few months ago, whatever a grave insult is.

For the record, I've heard others now confirm the part about not knowing he was a gelding. I believe it now more than ever. It is possible they knew, but I'm certainly not taking the word of an anonymous nobody internet poster over several well respected people in the industry.

Well, so do I. At least we agree on something.

Dahoss9698
08-19-2010, 11:19 AM
I thought you were leaving Gm10. What changed your mind?

cj
08-19-2010, 12:07 PM
I don't know a damn thing about this deal, but I find it hard to believe that even a mildly sophisticated buyer would not know that the horse was a gelding.



That is what makes it so amazing. Have you ever known me to just make stuff up and try to pass it off as fact?

The $2mil purchase price is absolutely fact.

classhandicapper
08-19-2010, 02:13 PM
That is what makes it so amazing. Have you ever known me to just make stuff up and try to pass it off as fact?

The $2mil purchase price is absolutely fact.

Of course not.

I'm more or less questioning whether any of the sources are telling the truth. The buyers have an incentive to say the price was much less than 2M and the sellers have an incentive to say the price was as high as possible when the truth could be somewhere in between. If it was 2M, it was a massive gamble and a lot more than I would have paid. For their sake, at least he's turning to be a good horse.

gm10
08-19-2010, 03:04 PM
That is what makes it so amazing. Have you ever known me to just make stuff up and try to pass it off as fact?

The $2mil purchase price is absolutely fact.

You certainly shouldn't have believed the people who told you that Godolphin didn't know they were buying a gelding, and you shouldn't believe the (same?) people who are telling you he cost 2 mill.

You obviously have faith in these people, but I can guarantee you that they are making this up or aren't aware of the inaccuracies.

Fager Fan
08-19-2010, 03:25 PM
Gm, are you going to answer my post?

speed
08-19-2010, 03:36 PM
Another factor here has to be the fact that Frank C. is quite wealthy from i believe it is steel industry. He is an owner who is concerned with only winning races. For years he drops horses so he can get his picture taken. I have no doubt he would have never sold TW after his debut for $500,000. Frankly i am a bit surprised he sold him at all. Possibly had an issue which concerned them, i have no clue. But 2 million makes much more sense when you look at who the seller is and who the buyer is.

Fager Fan
08-19-2010, 04:58 PM
Another factor here has to be the fact that Frank C. is quite wealthy from i believe it is steel industry. He is an owner who is concerned with only winning races. For years he drops horses so he can get his picture taken. I have no doubt he would have never sold TW after his debut for $500,000. Frankly i am a bit surprised he sold him at all. Possibly had an issue which concerned them, i have no clue. But 2 million makes much more sense when you look at who the seller is and who the buyer is.

By "to get his win picture taken" I assume you mean make some money to offset some of the stable losses?

I wouldn't think it surprising to sell a gelding for $500,000. It's a horse with no residual value who has to earn $500,000 plus training costs on the racetrack (and not get hurt along the way) to equal what is being offered. Few are John Henry, and as we can see, it was a good sell at just $500,000. $2 million? That's a no-brainer, not 2 seconds of debate even needed.

speed
08-19-2010, 05:17 PM
By "to get his win picture taken" I assume you mean make some money to offset some of the stable losses?

I wouldn't think it surprising to sell a gelding for $500,000. It's a horse with no residual value who has to earn $500,000 plus training costs on the racetrack (and not get hurt along the way) to equal what is being offered. Few are John Henry, and as we can see, it was a good sell at just $500,000. $2 million? That's a no-brainer, not 2 seconds of debate even needed.

No he loves to win races. He does not care if he claimes 1 for 25,000 then drops to 10,000 wins and he loses the horse. He loves to get his picture taken.

I forget when his birthday is but he used to drop 4 or 5 horses with the intent of winning several on the day. He would have many friends and family there and just loves winning.

the little guy
08-19-2010, 08:11 PM
You certainly shouldn't have believed the people who told you that Godolphin didn't know they were buying a gelding, and you shouldn't believe the (same?) people who are telling you he cost 2 mill.

You obviously have faith in these people, but I can guarantee you that they are making this up or aren't aware of the inaccuracies.


Never right but never in doubt.

Remarkable.

Fager Fan
08-19-2010, 10:04 PM
No he loves to win races. He does not care if he claimes 1 for 25,000 then drops to 10,000 wins and he loses the horse. He loves to get his picture taken.

I forget when his birthday is but he used to drop 4 or 5 horses with the intent of winning several on the day. He would have many friends and family there and just loves winning.

I don't dispute that he loves to win. Find me an owner who doesn't - that's the point of owning. But I think you're reading something wrong if you don't understand that dropping horses so they can win is done for more than getting your picture taken - it's about making money for the stable too.

Striker
08-19-2010, 10:46 PM
I don't dispute that he loves to win. Find me an owner who doesn't - that's the point of owning. But I think you're reading something wrong if you don't understand that dropping horses so they can win is done for more than getting your picture taken - it's about making money for the stable too.
I don't think you quite understand this man. Speed is absolutely correct in his statements and although they are only rumors, it is rumored that he loses lots of money a year with his stable because of his "aggressive" nature. Here is a recent example with a horse named Hogan Beach that he claimed from a 25k claimer on June 25th. This horse then ran back in an 18k claimer on August 7th finished dead last and was reclaimed by the trainer that Frank claimed him from on June 25th. So that is a 7k loss plus daily trainer fees on this one horse. There are numerous other examples just like this. The selling of TW has given him a lot of coverage to do this. Please look at the owner standings at Arlington to see the owner standings and it might give you a better idea with of what you are dealing with.

gm10
08-20-2010, 02:56 AM
Gm, are you going to answer my post?

I can't.
I only saw it months ago, and don't remember what was on there. But it was elaborate, that I remember.

PaceAdvantage
08-20-2010, 02:57 AM
well if CJ, PA and TLG are saying I'm wrong, why would I even bother argue my case
the judges and juries of this board have spoken

for anybody who wants to know the truth, they did not pay 2 mill, and they knew all too well he was a gelding
the reasons why CJ and TLG keep stating rumours to the contrary as facts are beyond me and frankly, not of interest to meWhy are you including me in your list? I haven't made one comment on Tahitian Warrior...ever...

gm10
08-20-2010, 02:59 AM
By "to get his win picture taken" I assume you mean make some money to offset some of the stable losses?

I wouldn't think it surprising to sell a gelding for $500,000. It's a horse with no residual value who has to earn $500,000 plus training costs on the racetrack (and not get hurt along the way) to equal what is being offered. Few are John Henry, and as we can see, it was a good sell at just $500,000. $2 million? That's a no-brainer, not 2 seconds of debate even needed.

He was valued at $500.000 by GD. Maybe the ultimate price was a bit more due to whatever costs such a transaction entails. But I think you're close to the right answer with 500.000.

illinoisbred
08-20-2010, 06:26 AM
Another factor here has to be the fact that Frank C. is quite wealthy from i believe it is steel industry. He is an owner who is concerned with only winning races. For years he drops horses so he can get his picture taken. I have no doubt he would have never sold TW after his debut for $500,000. Frankly i am a bit surprised he sold him at all. Possibly had an issue which concerned them, i have no clue. But 2 million makes much more sense when you look at who the seller is and who the buyer is.
He made his living in the printing/graphics business. I think you're thinking of the late Russell Reineman (original owner of War Emblem). He was in the steel business.

Fager Fan
08-20-2010, 07:29 AM
For GM. I posted this a couple days ago, not a couple months ago.

There are? Because what was listed is out of the norm.

Horses bought as racehorses (not yearlings or 2yos in training) don't usually have their heart measured since the racing already gives them a good enough idea on the heart. That said, maybe they measure the heart, though it'd be pretty much of a waste of $500 at that point.

A bone scan would be very out of the ordinary. I've never heard of a horse going in for a bone scan as part of a pre-purchase exam. It is too invasive, expensive, and only needed if a horse is showing problems.

X-rays and a scope are what is customary along with a physical going over of the horse. If anything gives the vet pause, then the vet may talk to the owner about doing an ultrasound or other diagnostic. Vets rarely get into the conformation of the animal, that has usually been done by the prospective buyer or someone on his behalf before signing the contract (the vetting is done after the contract's signed).

A normal pre-purchase would also include checking the testicles and noting any abnormalities. Given, though, that the vet would think the prospective buyer already knows about the horse being a gelding given that they've inspected the horse and signed a contract to purchase him, mentioning "You do know he's gelded?" might not come up when he calls the owner to tell him "the horse passed." It'd be on the written report though.

I'm curious, GM, what you claim Darley/Godolphin does differently than normal regarding pre-purchase vet exams? You didn't flinch at the notion that they have the heart scanned (possible but perhaps not likely) and get bone scans (not likely at all) and claimed they have much more than this done.

Fager Fan
08-20-2010, 07:30 AM
He was valued at $500.000 by GD. Maybe the ultimate price was a bit more due to whatever costs such a transaction entails. But I think you're close to the right answer with 500.000.

Seems you're still trying to argue that he was sold for $500,000. All reports were that he sold for $2 million.

lamboguy
08-20-2010, 08:48 AM
Seems you're still trying to argue that he was sold for $500,000. All reports were that he sold for $2 million.
i am going to help you with this one. tahittian warrior was sold for $2million. my only regret is that i wish i had him to sell for the big money.

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:01 AM
It simply isn't true. He was not sold for 2 million, and he was not sold to them without them knowing he was a gelding.

When I said that TW would run in an allowance two weeks before the date, did he run in that race? Yes, he did. And why did I know? Because I 'work in the industry' just like some of you do.

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:03 AM
i am going to help you with this one. tahittian warrior was sold for $2million. my only regret is that i wish i had him to sell for the big money.

what was his price at the yearling sales?

Dahoss9698
08-20-2010, 09:05 AM
It simply isn't true. He was not sold for 2 million, and he was not sold to them without them knowing he was a gelding.

When I said that TW would run in an allowance two weeks before the date, did he run in that race? Yes, he did. And why did I know? Because I 'work in the industry' just like some of you do.

Don't you think when you are wrong as much as you are (which is a lot) that the whole "I just know" stuff isn't going to fly? Do you think you are fooling anyone with the act?

Fager Fan
08-20-2010, 09:11 AM
It simply isn't true. He was not sold for 2 million, and he was not sold to them without them knowing he was a gelding.

When I said that TW would run in an allowance two weeks before the date, did he run in that race? Yes, he did. And why did I know? Because I 'work in the industry' just like some of you do.

You still haven't answered my question about what you claim Darley/Godolphin does in their pre-purchase exams. You claim they do "much more" than a standard pre-purchase exam, measuring of the heart, and bone scan, and I'm interested in hearing what this is, particularly given there isn't a chance in hell that they do bone scans as part of a pre-purchase exam. So I'm dying to know what else in addition to bone scans that you think they do.

And give up on the losing battle about his purchase price. Unless you can give some credibility to your argument like the name of the person who told you he sold for only $500,000 and they knew he was a gelding, then it's just a losing battle. We've all heard from too many other places that you're wrong.

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:26 AM
Don't you think when you are wrong as much as you are (which is a lot) that the whole "I just know" stuff isn't going to fly? Do you think you are fooling anyone with the act?

You seem to have 'to disagree' mixed up with 'being wrong'. I freely admit that I disagree with a lot of 'conventional knowledge'. I can also tell you that I usually disagree for a reason, and not just to piss people off. Why don't I like Beyers? Because they're not an optimal tool. They ignore certain properties of the horses' running times' distribution over course and distance. Why do I like synthetics? Because I make money betting them, and because they have been great for gaining new insights into speed figure making. Why don't I like people who are so negative about synthetics? Because they are blocking advances in handicapping, because they are either intellectually lazy or because they are protecting their commercial interests.

Anyway, why do I disagree about TW? For the same reasons as others: 'close sources within the industry'.

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:27 AM
You still haven't answered my question about what you claim Darley/Godolphin does in their pre-purchase exams. You claim they do "much more" than a standard pre-purchase exam, measuring of the heart, and bone scan, and I'm interested in hearing what this is, particularly given there isn't a chance in hell that they do bone scans as part of a pre-purchase exam. So I'm dying to know what else in addition to bone scans that you think they do.

And give up on the losing battle about his purchase price. Unless you can give some credibility to your argument like the name of the person who told you he sold for only $500,000 and they knew he was a gelding, then it's just a losing battle. We've all heard from too many other places that you're wrong.

a) I've answered you a page ago
b) this is what I don't get. Why do I have to give names? When has CJ given the name of the person who told him this? In any case, it ain't gonna happen. You are free to believe that I am making it up.

Dahoss9698
08-20-2010, 09:34 AM
You seem to have 'to disagree' mixed up with 'being wrong'. I freely admit that I disagree with a lot of 'conventional knowledge'. I can also tell you that I usually disagree for a reason, and not just to piss people off. Why don't I like Beyers? Because they're not an optimal tool. They ignore certain properties of the horses' running times' distribution over course and distance. Why do I like synthetics? Because I make money betting them, and because they have been great for gaining new insights into speed figure making. Why don't I like people who are so negative about synthetics? Because they are blocking advances in handicapping, because they are either intellectually lazy or because they are protecting their commercial interests.

Anyway, why do I disagree about TW? For the same reasons as others: 'close sources within the industry'.

No, you're wrong a lot. That much is clear.

It's also clear the reason you don't like certain figures is because they are your competition (I use that term very loosely). Conflict of interest?

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:36 AM
No, you're wrong a lot. That much is clear.

It's also clear the reason you don't like certain figures is because they are your competition (I use that term very loosely). Conflict of interest?

Not fair. I've recently come across figures which are conceptually way better than mine. Has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, if I'm wrong a lot, maybe you would want to prove it in a handicapping contest?

Fager Fan
08-20-2010, 09:39 AM
I can't.
I only saw it months ago, and don't remember what was on there. But it was elaborate, that I remember.

You're talking about this post? I had no idea what you're talking about when you said you can't and "it".

You're saying you saw some written list of what Darley/Godolphin does in its pre-purchase exams, and now you can't remember what was on that list?

I've got to tell you that it's not believable that there exists some kind of written checklist of Darley/Godolphin pre-purchase exams.

Fager Fan
08-20-2010, 09:46 AM
a) I've answered you a page ago
b) this is what I don't get. Why do I have to give names? When has CJ given the name of the person who told him this? In any case, it ain't gonna happen. You are free to believe that I am making it up.

In this case, you're the one offering up something that is contrary to the "common wisdom" of what was heard about this deal. It's fine to offer up something contrary and let people decide if they find it believable or not. But you've gone further, insisting that you are correct and others are wrong, multiple times, and so it's reasonable to ask for you to provide something in way of proof that you're right.

If Jimmy Bell told you that it was only $500,000 and he knew the horse was a gelding, then he sure doesn't mind people knowing that instead of thinking it was $2 million and they didn't know he was a gelding. Another option for you would've been to not name the person but saying that it was a person who works for Darley who told you this directly or whatever the circumstances are. Instead, you offer up nothing except that everyone's supposed to believe you.

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:48 AM
You're talking about this post? I had no idea what you're talking about when you said you can't and "it".

I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious enough.


You're saying you saw some written list of what Darley/Godolphin does in its pre-purchase exams, and now you can't remember what was on that list?


Nope I never made such a claim. All I saw were test results.

I've got to tell you that it's not believable that there exists some kind of written checklist of Darley/Godolphin pre-purchase exams.

You could well be right. I honestly couldn't tell you.

gm10
08-20-2010, 09:50 AM
In this case, you're the one offering up something that is contrary to the "common wisdom" of what was heard about this deal. It's fine to offer up something contrary and let people decide if they find it believable or not. But you've gone further, insisting that you are correct and others are wrong, multiple times, and so it's reasonable to ask for you to provide something in way of proof that you're right.

If Jimmy Bell told you that it was only $500,000 and he knew the horse was a gelding, then he sure doesn't mind people knowing that instead of thinking it was $2 million and they didn't know he was a gelding. Another option for you would've been to not name the person but saying that it was a person who works for Darley who told you this directly or whatever the circumstances are. Instead, you offer up nothing except that everyone's supposed to believe you.

So if I told you if came from someone who works for GD would you believe me?

Dahoss9698
08-20-2010, 09:55 AM
Not fair. I've recently come across figures which are conceptually way better than mine. Has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, if I'm wrong a lot, maybe you would want to prove it in a handicapping contest?

Not fair? That's funny. Feels like I nailed that one.

Now you want the contest? A few weeks ago you didn't, but now you do? Frankly I have no interest wasting more time on someone who I suspect would get beat by someone throwing darts (like Only11 would). So prove yourself a bit and I'll consider it.

At this point you've talked a big game, but has anyone seen this brilliance in action? Everytime you post in one of PA's challenges you post a few hours after the races start. I'm not impressed.

gm10
08-20-2010, 10:00 AM
Not fair? That's funny. Feels like I nailed that one.

Now you want the contest? A few weeks ago you didn't, but now you do? Frankly I have no interest wasting more time on someone who I suspect would get beat by someone throwing darts (like Only11 would). So prove yourself a bit and I'll consider it.

At this point you've talked a big game, but has anyone seen this brilliance in action? Everytime you post in one of PA's challenges you post a few hours after the races start. I'm not impressed.

To be honest, I was hoping to take on CJ and PA but they don't seem to want to anymore. Which is funny because PA changed my email address to imafraidoftakingoncj@chicken.com.

So if you're up for it, let me know. If I remember correctly I was up on PA's BeyerBasher's thread.

Fager Fan
08-20-2010, 10:03 AM
So if I told you if came from someone who works for GD would you believe me?

It depends. Was it one of the stallion grooms or was it one of the few people (and I do mean few) who would know what was paid and whether the purchaser knew it was a gelding? Do you even know who at Darley or Godolphin made the deal? Etc. If something rings true and there's reason to believe an anonymous internet poster based on the credibility shown by that poster in the past, then it can be believed.

gm10
08-20-2010, 10:07 AM
It depends. Was it one of the stallion grooms or was it one of the few people (and I do mean few) who would know what was paid and whether the purchaser knew it was a gelding? Do you even know who at Darley or Godolphin made the deal? Etc. If something rings true and there's reason to believe an anonymous internet poster based on the credibility shown by that poster in the past, then it can be believed.

I am still waiting for the 'common knowledge' people to tell us where they got their information from.
I've revealed a lot more than they have.

Bobzilla
08-20-2010, 11:43 AM
Why don't I like people who are so negative about synthetics? Because they are blocking advances in handicapping, because they are either intellectually lazy or because they are protecting their commercial interests.



OR it simply may be that many possess the intellectual capacity to understand the synthetic game is a different game entirely than the dirt game and, as fans of the sport as well as being punters (who in many cases probably do just as well and enjoy just as much playing synthetics as they do playing dirt), would prefer that our most important races continue to be contested over a safe/well-maintained dirt variety, a surface that many believe remains the more appropriate playing field by which to guage talent and performance in the classic American sense, or in other words, over the entirety of an event and not simply the final stages. Your cynical reasons for "not liking" those who appear negative over AWSs are as misguided today as when I first began to hear them from others four years ago along with all the accusations of callousnous in regard to animal welfare. I was really hoping we were past that point and that there was at least some understanding and bridging between the two sides by now. I sense there has been some movement in that direction. Sorry as this has nothing to do with the fact that Tahitian Warrior is a gelding and his current owners purchased him without knowing so but accusations of "intellectual laziness" was going a bit too far. Have a good one.

Dahoss9698
08-20-2010, 11:56 AM
To be honest, I was hoping to take on CJ and PA but they don't seem to want to anymore. Which is funny because PA changed my email address to imafraidoftakingoncj@chicken.com.

So if you're up for it, let me know. If I remember correctly I was up on PA's BeyerBasher's thread.

Again I ask, do you think there is anyone still fooled by this?

lamboguy
08-20-2010, 12:25 PM
the guy that bought tahitian warrior from us frank calabreese, has bought about 500 horses from us pror to this one. he said he got $2million for tahitian warrior. now if you think he has some great reason for lying and you know more than anyone else in this world, i want to wish you and the red sox the best of luck.

i have no more to discuss with you on this matter and probably on any further matters.

gm10
08-20-2010, 01:05 PM
the guy that bought tahitian warrior from us frank calabreese, has bought about 500 horses from us pror to this one. he said he got $2million for tahitian warrior. now if you think he has some great reason for lying and you know more than anyone else in this world, i want to wish you and the red sox the best of luck.

i have no more to discuss with you on this matter and probably on any further matters.

No probs. I'm sure the truth will come out eventually.

gm10
08-20-2010, 01:10 PM
OR it simply may be that many possess the intellectual capacity to understand the synthetic game is a different game entirely than the dirt game and, as fans of the sport as well as being punters (who in many cases probably do just as well and enjoy just as much playing synthetics as they do playing dirt), would prefer that our most important races continue to be contested over a safe/well-maintained dirt variety, a surface that many believe remains the more appropriate playing field by which to guage talent and performance in the classic American sense, or in other words, over the entirety of an event and not simply the final stages. Your cynical reasons for "not liking" those who appear negative over AWSs are as misguided today as when I first began to hear them from others four years ago along with all the accusations of callousnous in regard to animal welfare. I was really hoping we were past that point and that there was at least some understanding and bridging between the two sides by now. I sense there has been some movement in that direction. Sorry as this has nothing to do with the fact that Tahitian Warrior is a gelding and his current owners purchased him without knowing so but accusations of "intellectual laziness" was going a bit too far. Have a good one.

Alright, I probably overgeneralized a bit there.

(Though I must say that one of the reasons I like synthetics is exactly the reason you give for liking dirt: '... over the entirety of an event'. I think many dirt tracks don't offer anything near that. A matter of perception I suppose.)

lamboguy
08-20-2010, 01:14 PM
No probs. I'm sure the truth will come out eventually.
i told you the truth, you just don't want to believe it.

Charlie D
08-20-2010, 07:21 PM
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71998&page=1&pp=15



This stuff is great entertainment guys. Thank you all

PaceAdvantage
08-21-2010, 02:55 AM
You seem to have 'to disagree' mixed up with 'being wrong'. I freely admit that I disagree with a lot of 'conventional knowledge'. I can also tell you that I usually disagree for a reason, and not just to piss people off. Why don't I like Beyers? Because they're not an optimal tool. They ignore certain properties of the horses' running times' distribution over course and distance. Why do I like synthetics? Because I make money betting them, and because they have been great for gaining new insights into speed figure making. Why don't I like people who are so negative about synthetics? Because they are blocking advances in handicapping, because they are either intellectually lazy or because they are protecting their commercial interests.

Anyway, why do I disagree about TW? For the same reasons as others: 'close sources within the industry'.I'm curious why you thought to throw speed figures and synthetics into a discussion about the purchase price of Tahitian Warrior? Can't you ever let your agenda go for even one second?

PaceAdvantage
08-21-2010, 02:58 AM
To be honest, I was hoping to take on CJ and PA but they don't seem to want to anymore. Which is funny because PA changed my email address to imafraidoftakingoncj@chicken.com.

So if you're up for it, let me know. If I remember correctly I was up on PA's BeyerBasher's thread.Was I even supposed to be part of the team? I don't recall committing to such a thing since I have very little spare time as it is...besides, I've already declared publicly I'm the worst handicapper on this forum. So what good would it do beating me?

gm10
08-21-2010, 03:15 PM
I'm curious why you thought to throw speed figures and synthetics into a discussion about the purchase price of Tahitian Warrior? Can't you ever let your agenda go for even one second?

man I get tired of you
whenever something is written by someone you don't like, you turn into something else
grow up

PaceAdvantage
08-23-2010, 12:11 AM
man I get tired of you
whenever something is written by someone you don't like, you turn into something else
grow upStop making it so easy for me....I asked you a legitimate question by the way....a question I would have asked anyone who wrote something so strangely off topic.

Maybe you should get that chip off your shoulder.

lamboguy
09-03-2010, 08:08 AM
i waited until the morning after the race to see if gm10 is paying attention. in yesterday's 7th race at saratoga TECHNIQUE broke his maiden in a great field, he happens to be the brother to tahittian warrior. we had tahittian warrior, and my partner tony everard trained TECHNIQUE after the breeder couldn't sell the horse to team valor for $80k. he sent the horse down to ocala, got him ready and off to graham motion who did a great job with the horse. to me, i like this 2 year old alot more than his brother at this stage of his career. my advice to gm10 is to get hold of godolphin and tell him that this horse might be available. and by the way, this horse has his eqipment.

gm10
09-03-2010, 09:38 AM
i waited until the morning after the race to see if gm10 is paying attention. in yesterday's 7th race at saratoga TECHNIQUE broke his maiden in a great field, he happens to be the brother to tahittian warrior. we had tahittian warrior, and my partner tony everard trained TECHNIQUE after the breeder couldn't sell the horse to team valor for $80k. he sent the horse down to ocala, got him ready and off to graham motion who did a great job with the horse. to me, i like this 2 year old alot more than his brother at this stage of his career. my advice to gm10 is to get hold of godolphin and tell him that this horse might be available. and by the way, this horse has his eqipment.

yes I had a big bet on Technique, following a strong middle move in his debut race
I don't think he'll be as good as his half-brother, though

cj
09-03-2010, 09:54 AM
yes I had a big bet on Technique, following a strong middle move in his debut race
I don't think he'll be as good as his half-brother, though

Of course you did.

cj
09-03-2010, 09:55 AM
... and by the way, this horse has his eqipment.

They don't care about things like that.

the little guy
09-03-2010, 10:00 AM
yes I had a big bet on Technique, following a strong middle move in his debut race
I don't think he'll be as good as his half-brother, though


I suggest people watch his debut. I will need outside verification of his " strong middle move " in his debut....because my team of experts can't find it.

A completely different horse showed up yesterday. Not surprising, in fact predictable, but Technique's debut didn't predict that.

gm10
09-03-2010, 10:00 AM
Of course you did.


average odds 5/1 on betfair (that's an edge of 50% over tote odds)

the little guy
09-03-2010, 10:02 AM
Of course you did.


Well, you are forgetting that Sheik Mo's coursin told him that the fast working Darley firster ( I know....they are COMPLETELY seperate from Godolphin ) couldn't run.

It's good to be plugged in like gm10.

gm10
09-03-2010, 10:11 AM
I suggest people watch his debut. I will need outside verification of his " strong middle move " in his debut....because my team of experts can't find it.

A completely different horse showed up yesterday. Not surprising, in fact predictable, but Technique's debut didn't predict that.

He went quicker than the rest of the field in his debut race in the middle fraction. Of those DEL horses that have run since, Pick Four came back to win, the winner Yankee Passion was second in an OC ($50000), and Big Mack Daddy went second in a maiden. That was solid enough already.
On top of that, of those who had experience in the SAR race, he had the biggest speed fig, and the fig was higher than par for the race. That + the odds of 5/1 (Betfair) was my reasoning.

Hey, were these the same experts that rated RA an overlay at 1/9 or was that your personal opinion?

the little guy
09-03-2010, 10:25 AM
He went quicker than the rest of the field in his debut race in the middle fraction. Of those DEL horses that have run since, Pick Four came back to win, the winner Yankee Passion was second in an OC ($50000), and Big Mack Daddy went second in a maiden. That was solid enough already.
On top of that, of those who had experience in the SAR race, he had the biggest speed fig, and the fig was higher than par for the race. That + the odds of 5/1 (Betfair) was my reasoning.

Hey, were these the same experts that rated RA an overlay at 1/9 or was that your personal opinion?


My personal opinions involve giving out actual selections before races. Your's are saying you had winners after races. Saying you think horses that are 2:5 are actually 20% to win races, and then seeing them lose after running remarkably well, makes you wrong...not right or smart.

Please direct me to your pre-race post where you selected Persistently to win the Personal Ensign.

cj
09-03-2010, 10:25 AM
The horse went from a 51 Beyer to a 59. Middle move? He didn't pass anyone. Other than the winner, nobody made any move the entire race.

None of this means he wasn't a good bet, the field yesterday was pathetic and those from the Delaware race have run slightly better than they did that day, but nothing special.

the little guy
09-03-2010, 10:34 AM
The horse went from a 51 Beyer to a 59. Middle move? He didn't pass anyone. Other than the winner, nobody made any move the entire race.

None of this means he wasn't a good bet, the field yesterday was pathetic and those from the Delaware race have run slightly better than they did that day, but nothing special.


The betting in the race is what made him stronger. The fast working Darley firster was completely dead. The expensive Asmussen 2YO buy, that worked 9 4/5 at the sale, was substantially deader on the board. Only the Rusty Arnold firster, and to a lesser extent Sheppard firster, were live. That made the winner and eventual third finisher much stronger than they looked going in.

The eventual winner looked like an even better bet AFTER the race. We just need to be able to bet then as well.

lamboguy
09-03-2010, 10:38 AM
They don't care about things like that.i need a good laugh this morning!

the horse that ran second to technique looks pretty good, a matter of fact if they ran against each other i would have to bet the rusty arnold horse that got left in the gate. but the race was still a good one.

lamboguy
09-03-2010, 10:40 AM
The betting in the race is what made him stronger. The fast working Darley firster was completely dead. The expensive Asmussen 2YO buy, that worked 9 4/5 at the sale, was substantially deader on the board. Only the Rusty Arnold firster, and to a lesser extent Sheppard firster, were live. That made the winner and eventual third finisher much stronger than they looked going in.

The eventual winner looked like an even better bet AFTER the race. We just need to be able to bet then as well.
i bet the horses, but i did have a tip on the rusty arnold deal. the only reason why i bet technique was because i had him on the farm and new he was much better than the deleware race showed.

cj
09-03-2010, 10:43 AM
i bet the horses, but i did have a tip on the rusty arnold deal. the only reason why i bet technique was because i had him on the farm and new he was much better than the deleware race showed.

Well, was he really much better? Speed figures certainly don't indicate that he was. I would imagine the 59 Beyer is among the lowest ever for a 2yo MSW at the Spa.

lamboguy
09-03-2010, 10:46 AM
Well, was he really much better? Speed figures certainly don't indicate that he was. I would imagine the 59 Beyer is among the lowest ever for a 2yo MSW at the Spa.i didn't know he got a 59 buyer, but i have a question about the buyer number. i have a hosre in tomorrow night at penn national 5th race, #3 rat oath special. after she won her race 2 months ago her buyer number was 46 for a 4 1/2 fulrong race. i thought it was very low, but did not question it, today i pick up the racing form and it shows a 50 buyer. how does her buyer get better in 2 months without even running in a race?

cj
09-03-2010, 10:51 AM
i didn't know he got a 59 buyer, but i have a question about the buyer number. i have a hosre in tomorrow night at penn national 5th race, #3 rat oath special. after she won her race 2 months ago her buyer number was 46 for a 4 1/2 fulrong race. i thought it was very low, but did not question it, today i pick up the racing form and it shows a 50 buyer. how does her buyer get better in 2 months without even running in a race?

I'm not involved with Beyer so I can't give you a definitive answer, but I can speculate.

Most tracks vary from the original speed chart at distances less than 6f. I suspect a lot of it has to do with very different run ups being used. When Beyers are made for races of horses at those distances, especially when the field is full of lightly raced or first time horses, it is very hard to make a speed figures. So I imagine they track the horses coming out of those races and see if they might be off. I have studied the run ups and have a pretty good handle on these figures now, but I'm not sure Beyer does.

Also, a few times a year, they do circuit to circuit adjustments to bring tracks in line with each other. That is usually just one or two points though.

By the way, I had your horse as 52 pace, 50 speed last out...and that hasn't changed.

lamboguy
09-03-2010, 11:00 AM
I'm not involved with Beyer so I can't give you a definitive answer, but I can speculate.

Most tracks vary from the original speed chart at distances less than 6f. I suspect a lot of it has to do with very different run ups being used. When Beyers are made for races of horses at those distances, especially when the field is full of lightly raced or first time horses, it is very hard to make a speed figures. So I imagine they track the horses coming out of those races and see if they might be off. I have studied the run ups and have a pretty good handle on these figures now, but I'm not sure Beyer does.

Also, a few times a year, they do circuit to circuit adjustments to bring tracks in line with each other. That is usually just one or two points though.it could have been that my race was the very first 2 yo 4 1/2 furlong race of the year, i knew some of the horses in the race and knew that they were real good horses, some came back to win their next start, so i didn't understand such a low number. as far as the number goes for technique yesterday i would have to think that the beyer is low there too because they are offering good money for him today so someone has a different number than beyer does on this one. i have been around these types of sales and i find that the guy buying the horse is usually equiped with better speed numbers than beyer and often use beyer to try to get the price down.

as far as ratoath special goes the english bloodstock agent knew the beyer number right away and tried to buy the horse for $60k. i wouldn't pay $60k for a 2 yo that won a race with a 46 byer, i would not have paid $25k for the horse.

gm10
09-03-2010, 11:34 AM
The horse went from a 51 Beyer to a 59. Middle move? He didn't pass anyone. Other than the winner, nobody made any move the entire race.

None of this means he wasn't a good bet, the field yesterday was pathetic and those from the Delaware race have run slightly better than they did that day, but nothing special.

You don't necessarily have to pass any horses to run a strong middle section. Anyway, I did not see the race, I just recorded a very strong middle rating, and the form of that race had already worked out well.

He improve by about 1 length overall, which is not an illogical improvement (certainly not what I would call a 'completely different horse'). In this case (just) enough to beat an average field.

Not a horse I shall be following.

gm10
09-03-2010, 11:35 AM
My personal opinions involve giving out actual selections before races. Your's are saying you had winners after races. Saying you think horses that are 2:5 are actually 20% to win races, and then seeing them lose after running remarkably well, makes you wrong...not right or smart.

Please direct me to your pre-race post where you selected Persistently to win the Personal Ensign.

My opinion was that RA was a big lay. In the end I did not lay, but ended up backing the longshots to small stakes. Persistently was 70/1 on Betfair.

cj
09-03-2010, 11:36 AM
My opinion was that RA was a big lay. In the end I did not lay, but ended up backing the longshots to small stakes. Persistently was 70/1 on Betfair.

Of course you did. You are becoming the redboard king.

At least you aren't 46ing it. He lists five horses and when he doesn't come close, he didn't bet the race.

gm10
09-03-2010, 11:40 AM
Of course you did. You are becoming the redboard king.

At least you aren't 46ing it. He lists five horses and when he doesn't come close, he didn't bet the race.

I was wrong about Persistenly, I got 62/1 on her though I'm sure she was 70/1 at some point. Feel free to check with BF.

USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 R10 1m2f Grd1 3. Persistently Back 11957604892 29-Aug-10
23:02 C 63.33 9.00 63.33 561.00
USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 To Be Placed 2. Rachel Alexandra Lay 11957603555 29-Aug-10
23:02 C 1.2 60.00 1.2 (12.00)
USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 To Be Placed 2. Rachel Alexandra Lay 11957592120 29-Aug-10
23:00 C 1.26 50.00 1.26 (13.00)
USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 R10 1m2f Grd1 5. Classofsixtythree Back 11957587959 29-Aug-10
22:59 C 80 7.00 80 (7.00)
USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 R10 1m2f Grd1 5. Classofsixtythree Back 11957568196 29-Aug-10
22:55 C 52.08 7.00 52.08 (7.00)
USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 To Be Placed 5. Classofsixtythree Back 11957567248 29-Aug-10
22:55 C 12.06 25.00 12.06 (25.00)
USA / Sara (US) 29th Aug / 22:56 R10 1m2f Grd1 1. Miss Singhsix (IRE) Back 11957557808 29-Aug-10
22:52 C 13.1 25.00 13.1 (25.00)

cj
09-03-2010, 11:45 AM
I was wrong about Persistenly, I got 62/1 on him though I'm sure he was 70/1 at some point. Feel free to check with BF.


I never said I didn't believe, or even that I care. We all bet horses that win sometimes and lose sometimes. It is pointless to talk about after the fact as some way to try to prove how smart we are.

I love talking racing, but when it comes to bets, you talk before the race, or you don't talk about them after. That is simple message board etiquette, especially when the purported bet is not the same as your pre-race opinion.

Dahoss9698
09-03-2010, 11:49 AM
I never said I didn't believe, or even that I care. We all bet horses that win sometimes and lose sometimes. It is pointless to talk about after the fact as some way to try to prove how smart we are.

I love talking racing, but when it comes to bets, you talk before the race, or you don't talk about them after. That is simple message board etiquette, especially when the purported bet is not the same as your pre-race opinion.

Redboarding is becoming an epidemic. It's amazing how successful everyone is after the fact.

gm10
09-03-2010, 11:58 AM
I never said I didn't believe, or even that I care. We all bet horses that win sometimes and lose sometimes. It is pointless to talk about after the fact as some way to try to prove how smart we are.

I love talking racing, but when it comes to bets, you talk before the race, or you don't talk about them after. That is simple message board etiquette, especially when the purported bet is not the same as your pre-race opinion.

The purported bet was very clearly in correspondence with my pre-race opionion. Please don't say I'm redboarding as I find that a bit below the belt. And please don't lecture me on MB etiquette.

Charlie D
09-03-2010, 11:59 AM
My opinion was that RA was a big lay. In the end I did not lay, but ended up backing the longshots to small stakes. Persistently was 70/1 on Betfair.


She was the wrong price, however, assigning her a 20% probability of winning the Personal Ensign was off the mark somewhat, just like 2-5.


A better understanding of the race was needed.


Note: Above is not having a go at the linemaker Eric Donovan btw, he is trying to predict how the public will bet, not what price he thinks she should be, i believe.

cj
09-03-2010, 12:01 PM
The purported bet was very clearly in correspondence with my pre-race opionion. Please don't say I'm redboarding as I find that a bit below the belt. And please don't lecture me on MB etiquette.

I don't recall you ever mentioning that any of the longshots could win. Life at Ten, sure, but not anybody else. There is a huge difference from laying a horse at 2 to 5 and betting one to win at 63 to 1. That is redboarding. It isn't below the belt, it is a clean body shot.

As for the lecture, take it how you like. It doesn't make it any less correct.

gm10
09-03-2010, 12:10 PM
I don't recall you ever mentioning that any of the longshots could win. Life at Ten, sure, but not anybody else. There is a huge difference from laying a horse at 2 to 5 and betting one to win at 63 to 1. That is redboarding. It isn't below the belt, it is a clean body shot.

As for the lecture, take it how you like. It doesn't make it any less correct.

That's nonsense and you (should) know it. I made LAT 2/1 and RA 3/1. So guess what, LAT goes off at 2/1 and RA at 1/2.

In other words ... the rest of the field gets about 42% chance of winning, and yet based on official odds (after take out) the public think they have about 0% chance of winning. That is a (theoretical) edge of 42% which is quite large in my experience. Whether you then lay RA or back the rest of the field is irrelevant. They are completely equivalent bets.

Charlie D
09-03-2010, 12:22 PM
I made LAT 2/1 and RA 3/1.


How anyone could not have Rachel as fav to win is a mystery to me.

the little guy
09-03-2010, 12:37 PM
I don't recall you ever mentioning that any of the longshots could win. Life at Ten, sure, but not anybody else. There is a huge difference from laying a horse at 2 to 5 and betting one to win at 63 to 1. That is redboarding. It isn't below the belt, it is a clean body shot.

As for the lecture, take it how you like. It doesn't make it any less correct.


Look at it this way, at least for once he finally admitted that he was completely wrong about the race.

Robert Goren
09-03-2010, 12:49 PM
How anyone could not have Rachel as fav to win is a mystery to me.Maybe they knew something you didn't.

46zilzal
09-03-2010, 12:51 PM
Of course you did. You are becoming the redboard king.

At least you aren't 46ing it. He lists five horses and when he doesn't come close, he didn't bet the race.
the implication is obvious. if there is that much confusion, of course one lists more


Although being a trifecta wagerer one always has to consider various scenarios altered by the random factors that are UN-HANDICAPPABLE..

Janeane Garofalo and I do not agree on a lot of things but she has an apropos response to your continual BS

cj
09-03-2010, 12:52 PM
That's nonsense and you (should) know it. I made LAT 2/1 and RA 3/1. So guess what, LAT goes off at 2/1 and RA at 1/2.

In other words ... the rest of the field gets about 42% chance of winning, and yet based on official odds (after take out) the public think they have about 0% chance of winning. That is a (theoretical) edge of 42% which is quite large in my experience. Whether you then lay RA or back the rest of the field is irrelevant. They are completely equivalent bets.

They are not equivalent because you left out Life at Ten, the horse that was obviously the second most likely winner. They are not even close to the same. The only reason you (ridiculously) had Rachel at 3 to 1 is because of LAT.

cj
09-03-2010, 12:53 PM
the implication is obvious. if there is that much confusion, of course one lists more


Although being a trifecta wagerer one always has to consider various scenarios altered by the random factors that are UN-HANDICAPPABLE..

Janeane Garofalo and I do not agree on a lot of things but she has an apropos response to your continual BS

You are so easy. You must be a blast at parties. Mission accomplished.

Charlie D
09-03-2010, 12:57 PM
Maybe they knew something you didn't.


Not sure what you mean by this. Rachel was fav on my line, LAT 2nd, Persistently 3rd and any price you like the rest.


Rachel and Lat ended up being underlays, Persistently was a massive overlay.

Race as has been explained eslewhere fell into the 3rd favs lap.

Charlie D
09-03-2010, 01:17 PM
Here is my BACK book for the PE

Rachel 2.8
LaT 3.74
Per 4.32


Her is the Lay book

2.05
2.74
3.17



(You can do your own conversions.)


Now, explain what you mean by this Robert please

Maybe they knew something you didn't.

Charlie D
09-03-2010, 01:30 PM
And btw, if anyone had asked i would have told them the above Pre- race.


Dean asked WHY i were oppoing Rachel, i told him and anyone else who reads this board.

gm10
09-03-2010, 03:53 PM
They are not equivalent because you left out Life at Ten, the horse that was obviously the second most likely winner. They are not even close to the same. The only reason you (ridiculously) had Rachel at 3 to 1 is because of LAT.

The bets are equivalent, they are different expressions of one and the same personal opinion: RA is too short, LAT is correctly priced, and as a consequence the 'rest of the field' have to be an overlay as a whole. Whether you then choose to lay RA, or back the outsiders, the sentiment is the same. RA is overpriced, and you are going to take her on with what you consider to be value.

I simply do not understand your issue with this. I doesn't matter what odds I had this or that horse at. It doesn't matter whether you personally find those odds ridiculous or not. That is the whole point of betting.

OTM Al
09-03-2010, 04:17 PM
I figured maybe if I rearranged the letters of the thread title it may spell something about Rachel or Zenyatta, but I guess not.....

FenceBored
09-03-2010, 06:47 PM
I figured maybe if I rearranged the letters of the thread title it may spell something about Rachel or Zenyatta, but I guess not.....

I get "John was a dolphin in air. Oar it, Ringo."

OTM Al
09-03-2010, 07:10 PM
I think now we are supposed to say no to California racing or some such. I hope it doesn't apply to the mules though. It is funny to watch them run

Charlie D
09-22-2010, 11:59 PM
Anyone know if Tahitian Warriors next start will be in Germany???