And the winner is......

[Tom]

Rachael!

[Sundown]

Yesssssss

[andymays]

Good for Rachel. She deserved it.

[Relwob Owner]

Good for Rachel. She deserved it.


The lack of applause was deafening....I hope Jackson mentions Wiggins because I dont think he or Asmussen did in their previous speeches

[andymays]

The lack of applause was deafening....I hope Jackson mentions Wiggins because I dont think he or Asmussen did in their previous speeches


Good point but I think they'll forget.

[Sundown]

Jackson threw it down.

[Saratoga_Mike]

What were the vote totals?

[horses721]

Rachael!

Oh no, the west coast whiners are going to get their panties in a bunch after this! Let the whining begin.

[tzipi]

Wooooooooooo! :ThmbUp:

[hazzardm]

TInv7rJqUjE

[CincyHorseplayer]

What a shocker:cool:

Gotta win more than 1 big race if you're taking down honors.

[Grits]

130 for Rachael

99 for Zenyatta

And I AM BEYOND THRILLED THAT RACHAEL WON IT!!:)

[keithw84]

Jackson threw it down.

My live stream cut out so I missed it. Can you explain?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Dysfunctional industry
Dysfunctional selection

OK, this was a tight one, but I thought Zenyatta would get it.

[Sundown]

Basically called for a head to head and for a confab with the Mosses to see if it can happen, actually pretty mild, but a open challenge none- the-less.

[Stillriledup]

Jerry Moss fired up, he's saying these horses will meet!! Go get em jerry!

[tzipi]

130 to 99 on votes.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Dysfunctional industry
Dysfunctional selection

OK, this was a tight one, but I thought Zenyatta would get it.

Dysfucntional industry. Perfectly logical selection!

[CincyHorseplayer]

I can't wait to see 100 threads of 10 pages or better of the whinefest!!!


Let's hear it.Oh and wait,I got something for you;


http://www.milkmanthefilm.com/akirawing/img/Worlds%20Smallest%20Violin.jpg

[ZephyrHawk]

I think it went to the right horse, but I wish there had been a "both" option.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The Z-supporters are sitting around in stunned silence. Congrats to RA and all of her supporters. I look forward to RA beating Z this yr.

[tcasolo]

Dysfunctional industry
Dysfunctional selection

OK, this was a tight one, but I thought Zenyatta would get it.


Sorry...but winning by almost 25% is a blowout!

Congrats Rachael

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm waiting for the "there's an East Coast bias in the voting." Yeah put a sock in it - the best horse won.

[andymays]

Jackson mentioned the Hollywood tribute debacle. I said all along that would hurt Zenyatta because it was so over the top.

[tzipi]

Jackson mentioned the Hollywood tribute debacle. I said all along that would hurt Zenyatta because it was so over the top.

I'm all for parading horses but it was over the top. Plus she's still running!

[Quackfan]

Oh no, the west coast whiners are going to get their panties in a bunch after this! Let the whining begin.

Oh No we just let our horses do the talking.

[WinterTriangle]

I guess that means the rachel bobble head I got today at Oaklawn was a premonition. :)

[nijinski]

The lack of applause was deafening....I hope Jackson mentions Wiggins because I dont think he or Asmussen did in their previous speeches
Gomez ouldn't muster up a little applause , I guess. heard he looked upset.

It took place in the West Coast , but if it's true they held back applause
for Rachel ,that lacks class.

[cj]

Gomez ouldn't muster up a little applause , I guess. heard he looked upset.



He was just really pissed he stuck around to ride that last race for free.

[Investorater]

\o/ Congratulations Rachel Alexandra \o/

[johnhannibalsmith]

It looked like a tradition bias to me.

There are still enough purist turf writers that the will of the Breeder's Cup LTD wasn't enough. You can debate the merit of a Championship day and what it ultimately means, but I'm inclined to believe that the real decisive factor was that the vote was one that pitted a campaign that culminated with one meaningful win in the premier event against a campaign with several meaningful wins that was a 'throwback' in style.

I wouldn't have argued with a vote that went either way, but in the end, I commend both trainers/owners for campaigning their steeds with an element of boldness and within the confines of what they believed in the horse's best interest.

The contemporary fan in me has a hard time encouraging a mild trivialization of the Championship day, but the core fan in me is happy to see that one predetermined race does not make or break an entire season in our sport.

[Citation1947]

The best horse of the YEAR won!! :jump: :jump: :ThmbUp:

[OntheRail]

:1: Super filly Rachel Alexandra :jump: :jump:

[LottaKash]

Good Girl Rachael Alexandra.....Zenyatta, I luv ya, but darlin', you just didn't do enough this year....imo....

best,

[Quackfan]

The best of of the YEAR won!! :jump: :jump: :ThmbUp:

Yea you are right. And that is that Zeynatta will continue to race!!

[keithw84]

Where are you joanied? Thoughts?

[classhandicapper]

Hopefully this will be the last thing I say on this subject because I'm getting tired of it and want to move on to other things.

IMO, they gave the award to the right horse! :ThmbUp:

However, IMO that does not make the RA supporters that were trashing one of the greatest mares to ever race in North America any less disrespectful or clueless about measuring turf/synthetic ability relative to dirt ability.

This whole debate demonstrated the difference between a somewhat classy sport like tennis and one that needs a lot of work like horse racing.

The double standard was laughable.

It was OK that RA's connections avoided 10F on any surface even though races were available, avoided synthetic, and did not ship to CA to face Zenyatta on synthetic, but it was not OK that Zenyatta didn't come east to face the best dirt horse, on her favorite surface, at her favorite distance.

That is eqivalent of tennis fans saying it would OK be for Roger Federer to avoid playing Rafael Nadal on clay while simultaneously calling Nadal a wuss for not going to Wimbledon.

Fortunately, in tennis, great clay players try grass, great grass players try clay, and both try hard courts. MOST IMPORTANTLY, their losses on their inferior surfaces don't diminish their greatness. It's their victories on their inferior surfaces that enhance their greatness.

That's the way it should be in racing also.

In fact, it used to be that way when horses like Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Buckpasser, Damascus, and others tried turf even though they were dirt horses. Some won and enhanced their greatness. Others failed, but it didn't diminish them at all.

Only one of these horses has tried both surfaces against elite company and won.

Only one of these horses has tried the classic distance of 10F against older males and won.

Now if you want to say RA accomplished more in 2009, as I said, I agree. They gave the right horse the award. But that's not the way the debate was framed by a lot of people.

And I can already tell you what's going to happen if they meet.

If Zenyatta faces RA in a slow paced (relative to their ability) filly race at 9F and loses to her, eastern horseplayers and media types will celebrate it as proof of RA's superiorty and further denigrate one of the greatest mares to ever race in NA. That would be disgraceful.

These two horses should meet at 9F on synthetic or 10F on dirt in a full field of quality males to ensure a honest pace for the quality of these horses.

Since we already know that RA's connections won't even consider facing Zenyatta at her game like some of the great horses I mentioned above, it's going to be Zenyatta that's going to have to accept the disadvantage and challenge.

If I were Z's connections, I would give her a prep or two at home, find a quality stakes on dirt, and then tell the connections of RA to meet them at CD at 10F against the best males in the world in the BC Classic. They might both lose that contest, but that's the only way to settle things between the two of them at close to fair terms.

Meeting RA on dirt would be a lot like Bjorn Borg asking Roger Federer to meet him at the U.S. Open, but if the race was at 10F against quality horses, at least Borg wouldn't have to beat him with a small wooden racket to finally get the proper respect from eastern handicappers, anti synthetic forces etc...

[Dahoss9698]

Hopefully this will be the last thing I say on this subject because I'm getting tired of it and want to move on to other things.

IMO, they gave the award to the right horse! :ThmbUp:

However, IMO that does not make the RA supporters that were trashing one of the greatest mares to ever race in North America any less disrespectful or clueless about measuring turf/synthetic ability relative to dirt ability.

This whole debate demonstrated the difference between a somewhat classy sport like tennis and one that needs a lot of work like horse racing.

The double standard was laughable.

It was OK that RA's connections avoided 10F on any surface even though races were available, avoided synthetic, and did not ship to CA to face Zenyatta on synthetic, but it was not OK that Zenyatta didn't come east to face the best dirt horse, on her favorite surface, at her favorite distance.

That is eqivalent of tennis fans saying it would OK be for Roger Federer to avoid playing Rafael Nadal on clay while simultaneously calling Nadal a wuss for not going to Wimbledon.

Fortunately, in tennis, great clay players try grass, great grass players try clay, and both try hard courts. MOST IMPORTANTLY, their losses on their inferior surfaces don't diminish their greatness. It's their victories on their inferior surfaces that enhance their greatness.

That's the way it should be in racing also.

In fact, it used to be that way when horses like Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Buckpasser, Damascus, and others tried turf even though they were dirt horses. Some won and enhanced their greatness. Others failed, but it didn't diminish them at all.

Only one of these horses has tried both surfaces against elite company and won.

Only one of these horses has tried the classic distance of 10F against older males and won.

Now if you want to say RA accomplished more in 2009, as I said, I agree. They gave the right horse the award. But that's not the way the debate was framed by a lot of people.

And I can already tell you what's going to happen if they meet.

If Zenyatta faces RA in a slow paced (relative to their ability) filly race at 9F and loses to her, eastern horseplayers and media types will celebrate it as proof of RA's superiorty and further denigrate one of the greatest mares to ever race in NA. That would be disgraceful.

These two horses should meet at 9F on synthetic or 10F on dirt in a full field of quality males to ensure a honest pace for the quality of these horses.

Since we already know that RA's connections won't even consider facing Zenyatta at her game like some of the great horses I mentioned above, it's going to be Zenyatta that's going to have to accept the disadvantage and challenge.

If I were Z's connections, I would give her a prep or two at home, find a quality stakes on dirt, and then tell the connections of RA to meet them at CD at 10F against the best males in the world in the BC Classic. They might both lose that contest, but that's the only way to settle things between the two of them at close to fair terms.

Meeting RA on dirt would be a lot like Bjorn Borg asking Roger Federer to meet him at the U.S. Open, but if the race was at 10F against quality horses, at least Borg wouldn't have to beat him with a small wooden racket to finally get the proper respect from eastern handicappers, anti synthetic forces etc...

:rolleyes:

[CincyHorseplayer]

Where are you joanied? Thoughts?


She just soiled her drawers and is crying her eyes out!!!Be back momentarily!!!:D

[tzipi]

Hopefully this will be the last thing I say on this subject because I'm getting tired of it and want to move on to other things.


However, IMO that does not make the RA supporters that were trashing one of the greatest mares to ever race in North America any less disrespectful or clueless about measuring turf/synthetic ability relative to dirt ability.


Oh and what about the Zen fans who trashed RA??? :rolleyes:

What about the drunk Zenyatta/California fan yelling during Farish's speech, "California! and No I wont shut up!" Real classy. Ridiculous post.

[PaceAdvantage]

THAT WAS FREAKIN' AWESOME!

[JustRalph]

Sorry...but winning by almost 25% is a blowout!

Congrats Rachael

ok.............

[CincyHorseplayer]

Hopefully this will be the last thing I say on this subject because I'm getting tired of it and want to move on to other things.

IMO, they gave the award to the right horse! :ThmbUp:

However, IMO that does not make the RA supporters that were trashing one of the greatest mares to ever race in North America any less disrespectful or clueless about measuring turf/synthetic ability relative to dirt ability.

This whole debate demonstrated the difference between a somewhat classy sport like tennis and one that needs a lot of work like horse racing.

The double standard was laughable.

It was OK that RA's connections avoided 10F on any surface even though races were available, avoided synthetic, and did not ship to CA to face Zenyatta on synthetic, but it was not OK that Zenyatta didn't come east to face the best dirt horse, on her favorite surface, at her favorite distance.

That is eqivalent of tennis fans saying it would OK be for Roger Federer to avoid playing Rafael Nadal on clay while simultaneously calling Nadal a wuss for not going to Wimbledon.

Fortunately, in tennis, great clay players try grass, great grass players try clay, and both try hard courts. MOST IMPORTANTLY, their losses on their inferior surfaces don't diminish their greatness. It's their victories on their inferior surfaces that enhance their greatness.

That's the way it should be in racing also.

In fact, it used to be that way when horses like Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Buckpasser, Damascus, and others tried turf even though they were dirt horses. Some won and enhanced their greatness. Others failed, but it didn't diminish them at all.

Only one of these horses has tried both surfaces against elite company and won.

Only one of these horses has tried the classic distance of 10F against older males and won.

Now if you want to say RA accomplished more in 2009, as I said, I agree. They gave the right horse the award. But that's not the way the debate was framed by a lot of people.

And I can already tell you what's going to happen if they meet.

If Zenyatta faces RA in a slow paced (relative to their ability) filly race at 9F and loses to her, eastern horseplayers and media types will celebrate it as proof of RA's superiorty and further denigrate one of the greatest mares to ever race in NA. That would be disgraceful.

These two horses should meet at 9F on synthetic or 10F on dirt in a full field of quality males to ensure a honest pace for the quality of these horses.

Since we already know that RA's connections won't even consider facing Zenyatta at her game like some of the great horses I mentioned above, it's going to be Zenyatta that's going to have to accept the disadvantage and challenge.

If I were Z's connections, I would give her a prep or two at home, find a quality stakes on dirt, and then tell the connections of RA to meet them at CD at 10F against the best males in the world in the BC Classic. They might both lose that contest, but that's the only way to settle things between the two of them at close to fair terms.

Meeting RA on dirt would be a lot like Bjorn Borg asking Roger Federer to meet him at the U.S. Open, but if the race was at 10F against quality horses, at least Borg wouldn't have to beat him with a small wooden racket to finally get the proper respect from eastern handicappers, anti synthetic forces etc...

Cry for me!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzn5d0dBLIU

[Grits]

Watching the telecast, I got the feeling "the room" including Jerry and Ann Moss, thought Zenyatta had the award in the bag. When the camera angled to them, upon the announcement of Rachel as HOY, they, more than disappointed, looked stunned. Something, I guess, is natural.

In listening to the speeches and the interviews of both owners, there are differences. The Moss's are more focused on Zenyatta--her record, her achievements and celebrating them with her fans. Mr.Jackson, though focused on Rachel, her achievements and her fans, just as he was with Curlin, is clearly about more. This man has a consuming dedication to this sport, looking forward at necessary change that will help in making it better for all, and elevating it, once again, to its former place. Mr.Moss does not have this same desire--and there's not anything wrong in this. Still, their differences are notable.

And the sport is blessed to have both families, and, certainly, both horses.

"2010 will be quite different, we love to travel, John loves to travel and Zenyatta travels well."--as Moss stated in post interview.

[LottaKash]

of them at close to fair terms.

Meeting RA on dirt would be a lot like Bjorn Borg asking Roger Federer to meet him at the U.S. Open, but if the race was at 10F against quality horses, at least Borg wouldn't have to beat him with a small wooden racket to finally get the proper respect from eastern handicappers, anti synthetic forces etc...

Perhaps, RA and Z could meet up in England @Wimbledon, the "turf" you know....Borg could ride one, and Federer the other....

best,

[bigmack]

Rachel Alexandra received 130 votes to 99 for Zenyatta. Two voters abstained, and one ballot was voided.

Who abstained and what's with the void?

[Stillriledup]

Ironically, when Tom Durkin called Rachel's win at the Spa, he said "RACHEL WON". She might have "won" hoy the split second Durkin said WON.

[Stillriledup]

Who abstained and what's with the void?

They said Steve Haskin was one who didnt vote because he believed both should have been winners.

[Grits]

It looked like a tradition bias to me.

There are still enough purist turf writers that the will of the Breeder's Cup LTD wasn't enough. You can debate the merit of a Championship day and what it ultimately means, but I'm inclined to believe that the real decisive factor was that the vote was one that pitted a campaign that culminated with one meaningful win in the premier event against a campaign with several meaningful wins that was a 'throwback' in style.

I wouldn't have argued with a vote that went either way, but in the end, I commend both trainers/owners for campaigning their steeds with an element of boldness and within the confines of what they believed in the horse's best interest.

The contemporary fan in me has a hard time encouraging a mild trivialization of the Championship day, but the core fan in me is happy to see that one predetermined race does not make or break an entire season in our sport.

Excellent post. And this was the reason I wanted Rachel to get the award. Unlike an Oscar, its not given for one performance.;)

[PaceAdvantage]

I can not WAIT for these two to meet. I haven't been this excited for a perspective matchup in a long time...probably since Sunday Silence was supposed to match up with Easy Goer at Arlington as 4yos. I just hope things end up better this time around.

Google is indeed the COOLEST tool:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19900713&id=iisTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GQcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4290,2130246 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19900713&id=iisTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GQcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4290,2130246)

[Stillriledup]

Jerry Moss was pumped up and basically guaranteed these horses would meet on the racetrack.

Lets hope Rachel doesnt come down with a 'mysterious' ailment forcing her retirement before this meeting happens.

[CBedo]

Sorry...but winning by almost 25% is a blowout!

Congrats RachaelI am happy that Rachel won. I am shocked that people's short term memories didn't allow Zenyatta to win. As far as blowouts, actually, it was the closest vote since they changed the system--far from a blowout.

[bigmack]

They said Steve Haskin was one who didnt vote because he believed both should have been winners.
I don't know much but that seems like an odd thing to do given his level of involvement in the game. It was so close for him, he couldn't log a vote?

[Grits]

I am happy that Rachel won. I am shocked that people's short term memories didn't allow Zenyatta to win. As far as blowouts, actually, it was the closest vote since they changed the system--far from a blowout.

Voting changed in what manner?

Here's Jay Privman's story with results and votes for each category.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/110214.html

[OntheRail]

Perhaps, RA and Z could meet up in England @Wimbledon, the "turf" you know....Borg could ride one, and Federer the other....

best,
Priceless :D :lol:

[JustRalph]

I am happy that Rachel won. I am shocked that people's short term memories didn't allow Zenyatta to win. As far as blowouts, actually, it was the closest vote since they changed the system--far from a blowout.

after all the hype about how close it was........31 votes is a blowout

[PhantomOnTour]

Who abstained and what's with the void?
The void was a dangling chad, I believe :lol:
Recount! :lol:

[098poi]

Congratulations to Rachael and connections!
(Since this wasn't actually a horse race there really are no losers only winners, hey it's 2010 remember:D )

Question for those in the know, do you think if they meet the field will be full (9-12 horses) or light (4-6 horses)? I know it's difficult to say but from the past with big match ups do other horses stay away or jump in?

I think a fuller field would be more exciting.

[tzipi]

Congratulations to Rachael and connections!
(Since this wasn't actually a horse race there really are no losers only winners, hey it's 2010 remember:D )

Question for those in the know, do you think if they meet the field will be full (9-12 horses) or light (4-6 horses)? I know it's difficult to say but from the past with big match ups do other horses stay away or jump in?

I think a fuller field would be more exciting.


I think it's a HUGE field wherever they run. My reasons:

1: A track might bump up a purse bigtime to get them together in one of their races.
2: Their will probably be a ton of owners wanting to say their horse beat Rachel or Zenyatta or even maybe both.

[gm10]

Well done to Rachel Alexandra. She definitely deserved to win, although I would have voted Zenyatta.

Let's hope they meet SOON.

[LottaKash]

Congratulations to Rachael and connections!
(Since this wasn't actually a horse race there really are no losers only winners, hey it's 2010 remember:D )

Question for those in the know, do you think if they meet the field will be full (9-12 horses) or light (4-6 horses)? I know it's difficult to say but from the past with big match ups do other horses stay away or jump in?

I think a fuller field would be more exciting.

I think that would mostly depend on whether it is a "girl-race" or a "boy-race"...I hope it is a "boy-race, myself.....Would love to see the outcome of that one...

best,

[Gorgeous George]

gutted zenyatta didnt win...actually lost a little faith in racing after that result but it will be restored when zenyatta beats her over the classic distance which i hopes on dirt just to shut a few people on here up

[Zman179]

The bottom line is that the best horse won HOY. Yes Zenyatta was good, but she only won one race of any meaningful value and never left California.

It's called Horse of the YEAR, not Horse of the Breeders' Cup.

[CincyHorseplayer]

gutted zenyatta didnt win...actually lost a little faith in racing after that result but it will be restored when zenyatta beats her over the classic distance which i hopes on dirt just to shut a few people on here up


Do you mean the classic distance that Zenyatta ran 1 time???

[tzipi]

gutted zenyatta didnt win...actually lost a little faith in racing after that result but it will be restored when zenyatta beats her over the classic distance which i hopes on dirt just to shut a few people on here up

I don't know why you lost a little faith in racing? They voted the horse with the best races and campaign throughout the year HOY. It's not horse of a career or Horse of the BC, it's Horse of the Year.

If winning a few good races and then winning the BC Classic gives you HOY, then take away 1998 HOY from Skip Away and give it Awesome Again, who went undefeated and beat Skip Away in one of the best BC Classics.

I wonder if Zenyatta fans argued heavily against Skip Away getting HOY over Awesome Again in 98?

[PaceAdvantage]

gutted zenyatta didnt win...actually lost a little faith in racing after that result but it will be restored when zenyatta beats her over the classic distance which i hopes on dirt just to shut a few people on here upOdd...I felt my faith restored a bit when I heard Rachel's name and I jumped out of my seat and started cheering as if the Yankees had won the World Series again.

Funny how life works.

[WinterTriangle]

The Moss's are more focused on Zenyatta--her record, her achievements and celebrating them with her fans. Mr.Jackson, though focused on Rachel, her achievements and her fans, just as he was with Curlin, is clearly about more. This man has a consuming dedication to this sport, looking forward at necessary change that will help in making it better for all, and elevating it, once again, to its former place. Mr.Moss does not have this same desire--

First of all, congratulations to Rachel Alexandra.

Grits, I think it is a tad bit impertinent to comment on the "desires" of Mr. Jackson or Mr. Moss. Desires are of the heart, highly personalized and internal, and often spiritual. Are you saying you *know* their hearts...have some kind of special ability to peer into the insides of other people's hearts and minds?

You did not say "I don't think Mr. Moss has this same desire". You said "Mr. Moss does not have this desire" ..........and my question to you is:
how do you know?

This idea that people have to "politicize" or be political in order to be valuable to their world makes no sense to me. It seems to me that pure endeavor, carried out with style and love and zest, and ethically, is under-appreciated in our world. The impeccable stewardship of Zenyatta is valuable, for instance, and elevated racing for me. :) And it provides a stark comparison to those in the sport who are greedy, who juice the lemon, and who do not "do right" by the horses themselves.


And, if you want to get political as to making racing the best it can be: a commitment to getting drugs out of racing, I don't see much "elevation" of the sport forthcoming, quite frankly. And that is "my" opinion. ;)

[toussaud]

Odd...I felt my faith restored a bit when I heard Rachel's name and I jumped out of my seat and started cheering as if the Yankees had won the World Series again.

Funny how life works.


All even add to that.

it really wasn't that close. and quite honestly... it shouldn't have been.

There are horses in the golden years of racing that we look upon in awe that did not do what Rachael did. one race should not take that away. no matter how great that one race was.

the fact that people were for the most part.. able to see this... made me feel good.


now.. let this be a lesson to owners.. you can't sit on your ass and hope a HOY falls in your lap.


please race against each other next year.. more than once if possible.

[Gorgeous George]

Do you mean the classic distance that Zenyatta ran 1 time???

your on the ball today;)

[andtheyreoff]

Sanity prevails!

[Gorgeous George]

Odd...I felt my faith restored a bit when I heard Rachel's name and I jumped out of my seat and started cheering as if the Yankees had won the World Series again.

Funny how life works.

From a neutral fan its clear zenyatta's the better horse. The day zenyatta silences the fans of the most over-hyped horse in years cant come soon enough.

Funny how life works.

[Jasonm921]

The BC the past two years were like inviting the olympic track and field runners to a barefoot olympics conducted on the beach. She appears to be a specialist at the moment and she will have to leave California. If you want to beat the champ....you must follow the champ. She has to get out of California, where a meaningful race hasn't been run in over three years.

[andymays]

Zenyatta can handle the dirt but I can't see her beating Rachel if both have trouble free trips. At any major league dirt track that it. ;)

[CyberBet]

From a neutral fan its clear zenyatta's the better horse. The day zenyatta silences the fans of the most over-hyped horse in years cant come soon enough.

Funny how life works.

You cannot be serious.......:eek::lol:

I love BOTH horses and see no need to disrespect either of them, but to say Zenyatta is clearly better is showing your neutral knowledge! I will see the matchup between these two and it will be the best thing I have seen on a racetrack since Affirmed and Alydar. Affirmed was clearly better but it took nothing away from the greatness of Alydar IMO. BOTH were great, just as it is today with Z and RA.
I will say my faith in racing was reAFFIRMED with the vote last night, as the horse that did more this YEAR won the award.

[CincyHorseplayer]

your on the ball today;)


As perfect as eggs Benedict with a hollandaise sauce!!:cool:

[tucker6]

From a neutral fan
Sorry Charlie. Neutral fans do not become "gutted" by these types of things. Methinks you are fibbing a little here.

[Jasonm921]

A synthetic surface is to dirt as Arena Football is to the N.F.L. Same sport...different game.

[FenceBored]

From a neutral fan its clear zenyatta's the better horse. The day zenyatta silences the fans of the most over-hyped horse in years cant come soon enough.

Funny how life works.

How is she going to silence the fans of Sea the Stars - he's retired.;)

[tucker6]

How is she going to silence the fans of Sea the Stars - he's retired.;)
NOW Boy George is gutted. :lol:

[KingChas]

Who abstained and what's with the void?

Also,how many votes did Serena W. receive? :eek: :lol:

[gm10]

Odd...I felt my faith restored a bit when I heard Rachel's name and I jumped out of my seat and started cheering as if the Yankees had won the World Series again.

Funny how life works.

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.

[Gorgeous George]

Sorry Charlie. Neutral fans do not become "gutted" by these types of things. Methinks you are fibbing a little here.

Neutral as in i have no east-west coast bias. Obviously im gutted the best horse didnt get it, its only natural to feel that way when a travesty has occurred. If greece beat brazil in this years world cup final, as a neutral fan i would be gutted because the best team never won, please use common sense before posting;)

[Gorgeous George]

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.

Paceadvantage has never been and never will be neutral on the RA Vs Zenyatta debate. He has clearly showed his new york bias towards RA in every post he has published. Its the integrity of an adminstrator to be nonsubjective on all debates which he clearly hasnt demonstrated. But no doubt he will try and argue his case otherwise.

[Gorgeous George]

How is she going to silence the fans of Sea the Stars - he's retired.;)

Funny i thought this thread was about Racheal Alexandra, just another example of her fans DUCKING the subject ;)

[gm10]

Paceadvantage has never been and never will be neutral on the RA Vs Zenyatta debate. He has clearly showed his new york bias towards RA in every post he has published. Its the integrity of an adminstrator to be nonsubjective on all debates which he clearly hasnt demonstrated. But no doubt he will try and argue his case otherwise.

I can understand why he would get involved in certain debates, but I find it too much that this is on the front page as "The right choice". This is a forum. We come here to discuss, not to be told.

[FenceBored]

Funny i thought this thread was about Racheal Alexandra, just another example of her fans DUCKING the subject ;)

Hey, you're the one who brought him up, who else could possibly be meant with the phrase "the most over-hyped horse in years." ;)

Rachel will beat Zenyatta, Zenyatta will beat Rachel, and the argument will go on.

[Steve R]

gutted zenyatta didnt win...actually lost a little faith in racing after that result but it will be restored when zenyatta beats her over the classic distance which i hopes on dirt just to shut a few people on here up
What is it with your preoccupation about classic distances? It's 2010, not 1950. In North America today, races at 10f or more on the main track are among the least competitive of any division. Only a dozen and a half such races are run all year at the graded stakes level and 80% of the horses entered don't belong.

How about a flat mile or a mile and a sixteenth? They are much more competitive distances with a far greater number of legitimate contenders and could conceivably draw both the best long sprinters and middle distance horses. Why not see how they both would do against a full field of top class runners, not just against each other at an uncommon distance?

[FenceBored]

I can understand why he would get involved in certain debates, but I find it too much that this is on the front page as "The right choice". This is a forum. We come here to discuss, not to be told.

He devotes his time and energy to host this site, and you think that should preclude him from expressing his opinion on the homepage? :confused:

Think of it as a conversation starter.

[Steve R]

Hey, you're the one who brought him up, who else could possibly be meant with the phrase "the most over-hyped horse in years." ;)

Rachel will beat Zenyatta, Zenyatta will beat Rachel, and the argument will go on.
Why does everyone assume this meeting will prove anything? It will have been months since either one has raced. Rachel Alexandra may have peaked as a three-year-old and Zenyatta may lose a step as a six-year-old. Regardless of the outcome, there will be no way to tell if they both are still at the very top of their game as they were in 2009...when they should have met.

[098poi]

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.

I was a little surprised to see that headline also. But in reality this is not a news site representing itself as unbiased and just presenting the facts, (not that anything is misrepresented) and it is not an employee website or money making site where the moderators opinions could have an unfair favorable affect on certain users. PA does this for the love of racing and does not censor alternative opinions. I am grateful this site is here!

[W2G]

In listening to the speeches and the interviews of both owners, there are differences. The Moss's are more focused on Zenyatta--her record, her achievements and celebrating them with her fans. Mr.Jackson, though focused on Rachel, her achievements and her fans, just as he was with Curlin, is clearly about more. This man has a consuming dedication to this sport, looking forward at necessary change that will help in making it better for all, and elevating it, once again, to its former place. Mr.Moss does not have this same desire--and there's not anything wrong in this. Still, their differences are notable.

I don't know if your interpretation is actually true or not, but I have the same perception. Jackson made his acceptance speech as much about Zenyatta as Rachel, which he obviously didn't have to do -- very classy. Sure, he might have mentioned Wiggins, so it wasn't perfect. Still, I thought he rose to the occasion and said the right things, and more importantly meant what he said.

[FenceBored]

Why does everyone assume this meeting will prove anything? It will have been months since either one has raced. Rachel Alexandra may have peaked as a three-year-old and Zenyatta may lose a step as a six-year-old. Regardless of the outcome, there will be no way to tell if they both are still at the very top of their game as they were in 2009...when they should have met.

'Everyone' doesn't "assume this meeting will prove anything." I agree with what you said in another thread, regardless of their form this year the automatic excuses are there and will be trotted out ... okay, galloped out.

[OTM Al]

I was so excited by this whole thing I watched "24" and went to sleep...excellent horses and always a joy to watch when they are racing, which matters much more than awards. Wish I was the owner of either one. And on the record, I don't think either was the best filly/mare to race in the states this year. Do like those little statues though. Very classy.

[ExoticDancer]

Now let's move on.

Racing did the right thing and gave HOY to the horse who earned it where many of the greats from the past earned it.

Let the record show you can't win HOY staying in one state and not running on dirt or turf.

[11cashcall]

This man has a consuming dedication to this sport, looking forward at necessary change that will help in making it better for all, and elevating it, once again, to its former place. Mr.Moss does not have this same desire--and there's not anything wrong in this. Still, their differences are notable.



1st off,Congratulations...Rachel Alexandra for HOY!

Yes,I heard Jackson was front & centre at the meeting with CHRB regarding the takeout trying to make it better for all,his consuming dedication to this sport,elevating it, once again, to its former place.What dribble!

Please stop putting this man on a pedestal higher than he has built for himself.

[KingChas]

Ironic how this voting for HOY resembles the College BSC.
I say settle it on the field.

Older -Zenyatta
3yo-Rachel

HOY-Zenyatta/Rachel=Both undefeated for the year Co-champs. :ThmbUp:

PS.Were is Richard Nixon's declaration when you really need him? :D

[gm10]

He devotes his time and energy to host this site, and you think that should preclude him from expressing his opinion on the homepage? :confused:

Think of it as a conversation starter.

I don't. I think of it as something that could have been avoided.

[Grits]

:faint: No, Winter :faint: . . . . I don't know either of these gentlemen. And no I can't emphatically state what's in their hearts, and no, I don't possess "some kind of special ability" of any kind.

What I do possess is a lacking of the goofiness of text speak, including the overused IMHO, FWIW, etc, etc, and that sort of thing.

I'll try and work harder at all of that. Though, in fairness, is it ok if I add the two final sentences of my paragraph, which you did not include in your post? I hope so!

"and there's not anything wrong in this. Still, their differences are notable."

"And the sport is blessed to have both families, and, certainly, both horses."

First of all, congratulations to Rachel Alexandra.

Grits, I think it is a tad bit impertinent to comment on the "desires" of Mr. Jackson or Mr. Moss. Desires are of the heart, highly personalized and internal, and often spiritual. Are you saying you *know* their hearts...have some kind of special ability to peer into the insides of other people's hearts and minds?

You did not say "I don't think Mr. Moss has this same desire". You said "Mr. Moss does not have this desire" ..........and my question to you is:
how do you know?

This idea that people have to "politicize" or be political in order to be valuable to their world makes no sense to me. It seems to me that pure endeavor, carried out with style and love and zest, and ethically, is under-appreciated in our world. The impeccable stewardship of Zenyatta is valuable, for instance, and elevated racing for me. :) And it provides a stark comparison to those in the sport who are greedy, who juice the lemon, and who do not "do right" by the horses themselves.


And, if you want to get political as to making racing the best it can be: a commitment to getting drugs out of racing, I don't see much "elevation" of the sport forthcoming, quite frankly. And that is "my" opinion. ;)

[delayjf]

but it was not OK that Zenyatta didn't come east to face the best dirt horse, on her favorite surface, at her favorite distance.

I agree with you, BUT at the same time - I have to ask, what race could Zenyatta have come east to run against Rachel?? RA connections kept her campaign a secret, they announced their intentions to run in the Woodward just days before the race (gee I wonder why). Which meant that Zenyatta would have had to ship, acclimate, and race within one week and race on about three weeks rest. After the Woodward Rachel Alexandra was retired for the season. I wish the Moss's had entered the Woodward just in case, don't know if they considered it but maybe they assumed RA would run in the Travers.
where many of the greats from the past earned it.
Thank goodness the connections of Secretriat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Spectacular Bid, Alysheba etc, etc, etc, raced into the fall? Well, she can run but she cannot hide - the chess game continues.

[Grits]

From the Paulick site:


http://fhiers.blogs.ocala.com/10027/jerry-moss-should-forget-the-thoroughbreds-and-play-poker-hes-got-the-stoic-face-down/

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/west-coast-wash/01192010-hold-your-horses/

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=4838114

[Grits]

In all of this--several hours telecast last night, by far, the biggest round of applause came after Steve Crist announced and presented the Eclipse winning, HANDICAPPER OF THE YEAR. His remarks brought the entire room to life.

Leave it to a horseplayer to light up a room!

[Dahoss9698]

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.

Are you serious with this nonsense? PA can't have an opinion on stuff in horse racing because he is a moderator on his own site? He's not telling you anything and for the most part we are all adults here. Adults can make their own choice.

[Dahoss9698]

Paceadvantage has never been and never will be neutral on the RA Vs Zenyatta debate. He has clearly showed his new york bias towards RA in every post he has published. Its the integrity of an adminstrator to be nonsubjective on all debates which he clearly hasnt demonstrated. But no doubt he will try and argue his case otherwise.

You really are gutted huh? Get a grip, there are far more important things to be so hung up on in the world right now.

[ExoticDancer]

The facts are the facts. Rachel did things as a 3 year old no horse in history had done and did it over a 8 race season. To not award the horse for one of the greatest 3 year old campaigns ever would have been dishonest at best.

[11cashcall]

I can not WAIT for these two to meet. I haven't been this excited for a perspective matchup in a long time...probably since Sunday Silence was supposed to match up with Easy Goer at Arlington as 4yos. I just hope things end up better this time around.

Google is indeed the COOLEST tool:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19900713&id=iisTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GQcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4290,2130246 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19900713&id=iisTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GQcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4290,2130246)


PA,

It WILL never happen.As much as everyone would like to see this 2 lock horns,thats invoking the formula of yesteryear whose tomb stone the media
& track officals cannot lift.

Had the results been reversed then you would have had these 2 meeting sometime in 2010.So with the ball still in Jacksons court,ask yourself if he is truly cut of that racing cloth of yesteryear that would have seen these 2
racing against one another.

[tzipi]

PA,

It WILL never happen.As much as everyone would like to see this 2 lock horns,thats invoking the formula of yesteryear whose tomb stone the media
& track officals cannot lift.

Had the results been reversed then you would have had these 2 meeting sometime in 2010.So with the ball still in Jacksons court,ask yourself if he is truly cut of that racing cloth of yesteryear that would have seen these 2
racing against one another.


No they'll meet. Seems like Jackson wanted to meet Zenyatta 3 times already in a race series but Moss declined.
http://fhiers.blogs.ocala.com/10027/jerry-moss-should-forget-the-thoroughbreds-and-play-poker-hes-got-the-stoic-face-down/

Jackson Ran his dirt horse Curlin on turf and on synthetics. He ran Rachel in tough races everywhere. He is old school racing.

[11cashcall]

No they'll meet. Seems like Jackson wanted to meet Zenyatta 3 times already in a race series but Moss declined.
http://fhiers.blogs.ocala.com/10027/jerry-moss-should-forget-the-thoroughbreds-and-play-poker-hes-got-the-stoic-face-down/

Jackson Ran his dirt horse Curlin on turf and on synthetics. He ran Rachel in tough races everywhere. He is old school racing.


I dont recall Moss declining since she was nominated to the Beldane right?

And you missed my point,i was talking a rivalry.Like the good old days of
yesteryear.You honestly think one race will settle the issue?

If you believe that RA was knocked out from racing,then you'll understand
that she is a way off before getting into race shape. Hurdle #1,i can go on.

Should they meet it would be in the BC which is what in the fall,alot can
happen between now & then.

[gm10]

Are you serious with this nonsense? PA can't have an opinion on stuff in horse racing because he is a moderator on his own site? He's not telling you anything and for the most part we are all adults here. Adults can make their own choice.

Sure. And moderators moderate discussions. They don't give you the outcome at the start.

[delayjf]

What is it with your preoccupation about classic distances? It's 2010, not 1950

Couldn't you same the same thing about the preoccupation with dirt??

[OntheRail]

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.

And if Zen had got the nod instead and Pace made that Statement would you still be upset? I think it's just a case of sour grapes... and nitpicking. Deep down All knew that RA was HOTY. She did more last year and that's how you win HOTY... and now the Horsemen clearly know what they have to do to win it. Zen's a great mare I've said that many times but her conservative campaign cost her in the end.

[gm10]

And if Zen had got the nod instead and Pace made that Statement would you still be upset? I think it's just a case of sour grapes... and nitpicking. Deep down All knew that RA was HOTY. She did more last year and that's how you win HOTY... and now the Horsemen clearly know what they have to do to win it. Zen's a great mare I've said that many times but her conservative campaign cost her in the end.

Hey it's a game of opinions. At least there's a chance we'll find out this time. I can just imagine the PA.com headline .... "Voters made the wrong choice: Zenyatta is better than Rachel Alexandra" :cool:

[Tom]

Man, all this crying.....Penn National just canceled tonight because of the tears! :rolleyes::D

[11cashcall]

Man, all this crying.....Penn National just canceled tonight because of the tears! :rolleyes::D


:lol:

[Steve R]

Couldn't you same the same thing about the preoccupation with dirt??
Not really. The declining significance of races at 10f and beyond on the main track is the result of long-term breeding trends and a less competitive environment. Nobody wants to watch a dozen horses gasping for air as they struggle down the stretch, which is pretty much what we see these days in the Kentucky Derby with maybe one or two legitimate 10f 3yos in the pack, sometimes none. Introduction of a third surface was not inevitable in the same sense. It was a decision at a particular point in time based on what appear to be false premises and apparently without a lot of serious research and investigation.

[WinterTriangle]

What is it with your preoccupation about classic distances? It's 2010, not 1950. In North America today, races at 10f or more on the main track are among the least competitive of any division. Only a dozen and a half such races are run all year at the graded stakes level and 80% of the horses entered don't belong.

How about a flat mile or a mile and a sixteenth? They are much more competitive distances with a far greater number of legitimate contenders and could conceivably draw both the best long sprinters and middle distance horses. Why not see how they both would do against a full field of top class runners, not just against each other at an uncommon distance?

FULL FIELD is the most important part of your post to me. A field like Sea the Stars raced in, it has a lot of opportunity for the best horse to overcome obstacles, etc. If the field is less than 9-10, without scratches, I won't even bother.

As for classic distance I have to take that side. These aren't sprinters. Therefore, I want to see some real stamina, a big field, and a race that poses obstacles and shows what a GRITTY horse can do.

If classic distance isn't important then we need to cut the TC races down to 1 mile to accomodate "the way we race today in America." :rolleyes:

If the race is on dirt, then that somewhat favors Rachel, who spends her time on dirt. Fairly, give Zenyatta a bone too, then. Make the distance 10F. This way, they are both at a disadvantage in one respect.

At 1 mile on dirt, Rachel is at a clear advantage. I don't even have to watch that race.

[WinterTriangle]

Seems like Jackson wanted to meet Zenyatta 3 times already in a race series but Moss declined.

Jackson Ran his dirt horse Curlin on turf and on synthetics. He ran Rachel in tough races everywhere. He is old school racing.

Perhaps Moss is not quite into this rather insane (IMHO) grudge match sort of mentality.

(You can call it old school racing if you wish. ;) )

2009 is over. The awards are over. Both had a great season, one got an award, both are much loved by the American public..........and I'm moving on to .................DERBY PREPS :jump: :jump: :jump:

Unless there's another award in the pike......you know, sainthood contest or soemthing between Jackson and Moss. That should keep things going.

[CyberBet]

Perhaps Moss is not quite into this rather insane (IMHO) grudge match sort of mentality.

(You can call it old school racing if you wish. ;) )

2009 is over. The awards are over. Both had a great season, one got an award, both are much loved by the American public..........and I'm moving on to .................DERBY PREPS :jump: :jump: :jump:

Unless there's another award in the pike......you know, sainthood contest or soemthing between Jackson and Moss. That should keep things going.

WT, they both won awards last night. In fact three awards between the two of them. Just saying. ;)

[delayjf]

Not really. The declining significance of races at 10f and beyond on the main track is the result of long-term breeding trends and a less competitive environment.

Perhaps horse are not breed for that distance anymore but the major Handicap races are still run at that distance. It has always been the test of champions.

[Steve R]

FULL FIELD is the most important part of your post to me. A field like Sea the Stars raced in, it has a lot of opportunity for the best horse to overcome obstacles, etc. If the field is less than 9-10, without scratches, I won't even bother.

As for classic distance I have to take that side. These aren't sprinters. Therefore, I want to see some real stamina, a big field, and a race that poses obstacles and shows what a GRITTY horse can do.

If classic distance isn't important then we need to cut the TC races down to 1 mile to accomodate "the way we race today in America." :rolleyes:

If the race is on dirt, then that somewhat favors Rachel, who spends her time on dirt. Fairly, give Zenyatta a bone too, then. Make the distance 10F. This way, they are both at a disadvantage in one respect.

At 1 mile on dirt, Rachel is at a clear advantage. I don't even have to watch that race.
I don't associate stamina with grittiness. Stamina is not a discreet trait. It is simply speed over a distance. And since no record at any distance has ever been run at a higher velocity than a record at a shorter distance, the preference for longer distances is purely cultural. There is no inherent physical superiority for horses that excel at 10f over those who excel at 8f. The 10f record holder could never set a record at 8f and vice versa. So which is really better? That said, it's been probably 20 years, but Wayne Lukas seriously proposed that the Derby be dropped to 9f because of the increasing paucity of legitimate 10f contenders. I don't agree, although considering the pattern that has been followed with other traditional races like the JCGC, it's not an outrageous thought.

My real point is that if we agree that Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta have separate and distinct areas of superiority, what does forcing them into a match-up that is some hybrid concoction prove? Absolutely nothing, although you can believe the fans of the respective rivals will gloat. The meaningful outcome would be if Rachel Alexandra wins at 10f on an AWS or Zenyatta wins at 8 1/2f on dirt, and even that's questionable considering the match-up is predicated on their respective form in 2009 which may be an illusion in 2010. More disconcerting would be if another horse won those races. Then it's much ado about nothing.

Frankly, I don't care if they ever meet. There is a romantic quality and a mystique surrounding this mythical rivalry. Since I don't believe it can ever be resolved satisfactorily, maybe it's best left to be pondered in future years. War Admiral and Seabicuit met and Seabiscuit won in a match race, but does anyone really believe that War Admiral wasn't much the better horse?

[Steve R]

Perhaps horse are not breed for that distance anymore but the major Handicap races are still run at that distance. It has always been the test of champions.
There were just 12 graded races in the US for older horses on the main track in 2009 carded at 10f or longer. In 1983 there were 26. Will it be a test of anything when it gets down to a half dozen or so?

[WinterTriangle]

The 10f record holder could never set a record at 8f and vice versa. So which is really better?

My real point is that if we agree that Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta have separate and distinct areas of superiority, what does forcing them into a match-up that is some hybrid concoction prove? Absolutely nothing <snip> The meaningful outcome would be if Rachel Alexandra wins at 10f on an AWS or Zenyatta wins at 8 1/2f on dirt, and even that's questionable considering the match-up is predicated on their respective form in 2009 which may be an illusion in 2010. More disconcerting would be if another horse won those races.

Frankly, I don't care if they ever meet. There is a romantic quality and a mystique surrounding this mythical rivalry. Since I don't believe it can ever be resolved satisfactorily, maybe it's best left to be pondered in future years.

Steve, POST OF THE YEAR for me, anyway. Rings true and clear, 100% spot on (x 500) . :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

My real point is that if we agree that Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta have separate and distinct areas of superiority, what does forcing them into a match-up that is some hybrid concoction prove? Absolutely nothing, although you can believe the fans of the respective rivals will gloat. The meaningful outcome would be if Rachel Alexandra wins at 10f on an AWS or Zenyatta wins at 8 1/2f on dirt, and even that's questionable considering the match-up is predicated on their respective form in 2009 which may be an illusion in 2010. More disconcerting would be if another horse won those races. Then it's much ado about nothing.


This is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

I never objected to RA getting HOY. I would have voted for her myself.

I objected to the attitude towards Zenyatta as a racehorse which IMHO was sometimes related to ignorance about the idiosyncrasies of turf/synthetic racing, sometimes pure east coast/west coast bullshit, and sometimes based on an anti synthetic bias. I was born and raised in NY and have lived here my whole life, but I can still see Zenyatta's greatness "at what she does" from 3000 miles away. It just happens to be something different than what RA does. Same goes for Sea of Stars. He probably couldn't beat RA at 9F on dirt either, but IMO he was definitely better at what "he does" than RA is at what "she does".

[delayjf]

The 10f record holder could never set a record at 8f and vice versa.

I'm not so sure about that, I believe horses like Spectacular Bid, Holy Bull, Secretariat, Seattle Slew and others not mentioned could have dominated the shorter distances as well.

My point was that just as dirt is the traditionally surface in America - 1 1/4 is the traditional championship distance. And while there may be a decline in the number of 1/14 races, those remaining dominate the handicap division.

[mostpost]

The 10f record holder could never set a record at 8f and vice versa.
Sadly, that is probably true now, but it wasn't always so. In the late 40's/early 50's Noor held the record for the mile (1:33 3/5) and the mile and a quarter (1:58 1/5). Swaps held world records at 1 mi. 1 1/16 mi. 1 mile and 70 yards, 1 1/8 miles, and 1 5/8 miles simultaneously. So it can be done.

[mostpost]

I'm not so sure about that, I believe horses like Spectacular Bid, Holy Bull, Secretariat, Seattle Slew and others not mentioned could have dominated the shorter distances as well.

My point was that just as dirt is the traditionally surface in America - 1 1/4 is the traditional championship distance. And while there may be a decline in the number of 1/14 races, those remaining dominate the handicap division.
I agree with you on Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid. To set a world record you need both ability and opportunity. They had the ability. but not the opportunity. Between the three of them, they ran in a one mile race one time after their two year old seasons. (Secretariat in the Gotham-1:33 2/5)
I disagree on Holy Bull. He won the Travers on class in 2:02, but a mile and a quarter was not his distance.

AND A CORRECTION. I said that Noor held the record of 1:33 3/5 for the mile.
He did not. Citation held that record. Noor beat Citation several times in 1950 and that may have led to my confusion.

[tucker6]

Sadly, that is probably true now, but it wasn't always so. In the late 40's/early 50's Noor held the record for the mile (1:33 3/5) and the mile and a quarter (1:58 1/5). Swaps held world records at 1 mi. 1 1/16 mi. 1 mile and 70 yards, 1 1/8 miles, and 1 5/8 miles simultaneously. So it can be done.
Not to take anything away from those great horses, but I wonder if distance specialization within the breed since then has something to do with it. They don't seem to be breeding the "everyhorse" these days.

[PaceAdvantage]

From a neutral fan its clear zenyatta's the better horse.It absolutely is not, especially on America's racing surface (that would be dirt in case you didn't know).

The day zenyatta silences the fans of the most over-hyped horse in years cant come soon enough.I agree 100%

[PaceAdvantage]

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.After 10 years of operating PaceAdvantage.com, I didn't think posts could get much sillier...until just now.

[PaceAdvantage]

Its the integrity of an adminstrator to be nonsubjective on all debates which he clearly hasnt demonstrated.Wait...perhaps I jumped the gun with gm10....

Do they make enough Kleenex to deal with all this whining and crying?

[gm10]

After 10 years of operating PaceAdvantage.com, I didn't think posts could get much sillier...until just now.

I'm not doubting your good intentions or being ungrateful for your hard work.
But my opinion is what it is. Why did you, the moderator, call it the right choice?

[PaceAdvantage]

I can understand why he would get involved in certain debates, but I find it too much that this is on the front page as "The right choice". This is a forum. We come here to discuss, not to be told.Now it's like watching a tennis match between Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne with these two.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why did you, the moderator, call it the right choice?Because I've been typing here since September that Rachel should be HOY. You didn't seem to have a problem any of the 1,000 times I expressed this thought over the last four months. But put it on the home page (which I'm grateful you noticed by the way), and all bets are off?

[CincyHorseplayer]

Pace is a big boy and can take care of himself.But IMO after reading thread after thread of mind numbing negativity,all the way back to June after the Preakness.The guy has earned the right to his opinion a thousand times over.Deal with it.After the BC this was one of the most miserable places to be.You couldn't even start a dialogue.Had I been in command it would have been tempting to NOT set it all aflame!!

[gm10]

Because I've been typing here since September that Rachel should be HOY. You didn't seem to have a problem any of the 1,000 times I expressed this thought over the last four months. But put it on the home page (which I'm grateful you noticed by the way), and all bets are off?

Yep - went too far there imo.

[gm10]

Now it's like watching a tennis match between Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunne with these two.

Who?????

[tucker6]

Because I've been typing here since September that Rachel should be HOY. You didn't seem to have a problem any of the 1,000 times I expressed this thought over the last four months. But put it on the home page (which I'm grateful you noticed by the way), and all bets are off?
I tell ya, I've never seen such a bunch of baby crying, poor sports on one site in all my life. I thought horse players were these Oscar Madison types that couldn't be fazed by a nuclear bomb. Now I see the game infested by Felix Unger and his merry gang of feel-gooders who wince at a wood splinter. :bang:

[gm10]

I tell ya, I've never seen such a bunch of baby crying, poor sports on one site in all my life. I thought horse players were these Oscar Madison types that couldn't be fazed by a nuclear bomb. Now I see the game infested by Felix Unger and his merry gang of feel-gooders who wince at a wood splinter. :bang:

It's got nothing to do with that. A moderator is supposed to be neutral. Even if he were a Zenyatta fan he should not write "The wrong choice: RA wins HOY".

And I've got nothing against RA winning. I am disappointed, and I think the result is more a reflection of the higher number of East Coast voters than of who actually was the horse of the year.

But at the end of all these discussion, I agree that she also deserved to win. But I am just a PA member, of course.

[Pace Cap'n]

But at the end of all these discussion, I agree that she also deserved to win. But I am just a PA member, of course.

What an apt description.

[delayjf]

Sadly, that is probably true now

Maybe at the current moment. But IMO more recent horses like Ghostzapper, Sunday Silence, Point Given, and Cigar could compete at the top level at the mid distance routes as well. As I recall, Cigar's 1 mile split in the 1 1/4 Pacific Classic actually exceeded the Delmar track record for a mile.

[Bobzilla]

And I've got nothing against RA winning. I am disappointed, and I think the result is more a reflection of the higher number of East Coast voters than of who actually was the horse of the year.


Or perhaps the result was an indication that the majority of the voters were able to remember that their analysis was to be based solely on the merits of the horses' respective performances, in aggregate, between the dates of 1/1/09 and 12/31/09. This East Coast bias paranoia is, at least in this case, a red herring that amounts to nothing more than a convenient excuse. Believe me, I have a world of respect and admiration for Zenyatta, but I think a stroner argument could have been made for her after her 2008 campaign. She's not the first to be unlucky in this regard, Personal Ensign; Unbridled; and maybe even Smarty Jones had the misfortune of having a campaign worthy of HOY only to be denied the honor due to the presence of another strong candidate with an equally compelling campaign, or at least in the minds of enough of the voters. My only hope leading up to the announcement was that the voters honored their privledge by analyzing the total body of the respective campaigns and not sullying their vote by using it as an instrument of activism on behalf of the Breeders' Cup.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... A moderator is supposed to be neutral...

This isn't Meet The Press or a high school debate team. You can dislike him or think his opinions are shit, but he's generally one of the more well-thought out opiners in a variety of forums, so he's more than merely a moderator - he's a valuable contributor.

If that garners a reference to my needing to get a room, so be it, but as you've noticed, you can feel free to disagree and bicker with PA without repercussion - so I'm not sure what anyone feels is a motive for being up his ass just to do it.

[Cratos]

Rachel Alexandra (my choice) winning the 2009 Horse-of-the-Year Award was the best thing to happen in this industry in a long time.

Why? Because it speaks to the competitive side of this game, the desire of the owner to take risk and I really don’t give a damn about the motivation. I wasn’t against Zenyatta because of her resume, but because of her connections refusal to take risk.

There were races at Saratoga and Belmont (e.g., the Personal Ensign, the JCGC. the Whitney, etc) that Zenyatta should have competed in and I truly believe that her connections didn’t want to risk Zenyatta being defeated; they wanted a retired undefeated HOTY champion.

However that wasn’t the case and now we the racing fans have something to look forward too barring health issues to Rachel or Zenyatta.

I personally don’t want to see any special match races for these two horses because there are enough G1 races that both can enter without the “circus atmosphere” of a match race.

Also, we should not overlook the possibility of a good 3yo coming onto the scene or a horse from last year coming into his or her own and becoming a terror on the racetrack.

2010 should be a very good year for the racing fan.

[Steve R]

It's got nothing to do with that. A moderator is supposed to be neutral. Even if he were a Zenyatta fan he should not write "The wrong choice: RA wins HOY".

And I've got nothing against RA winning. I am disappointed, and I think the result is more a reflection of the higher number of East Coast voters than of who actually was the horse of the year.

But at the end of all these discussion, I agree that she also deserved to win. But I am just a PA member, of course.
Regardless of the number of East Coast voters, Zenyatta would have been the first HotY since at least 2000 to have raced within a single racing circuit during the year. I could be wrong, but I believe Tiznow never even raced on the East Coast. Point Given and Azeri raced everywhere. Mineshaft and Rachel Alexandra, East and Central. And so on. Perhaps the result was partly from the number of voters who wanted to see a less conservative, more demanding campaign.

[gm10]

Regardless of the number of East Coast voters, Zenyatta would have been the first HotY since at least 2000 to have raced within a single racing circuit during the year. I could be wrong, but I believe Tiznow never even raced on the East Coast. Point Given and Azeri raced everywhere. Mineshaft and Rachel Alexandra, East and Central. And so on. Perhaps the result was partly from the number of voters who wanted to see a less conservative, more demanding campaign.

Fair enough. But the whole world came to race her in that local circuit. Macho Again probably didn't even qualify for the race.

[gm10]

This isn't Meet The Press or a high school debate team. You can dislike him or think his opinions are shit, but he's generally one of the more well-thought out opiners in a variety of forums, so he's more than merely a moderator - he's a valuable contributor.

If that garners a reference to my needing to get a room, so be it, but as you've noticed, you can feel free to disagree and bicker with PA without repercussion - so I'm not sure what anyone feels is a motive for being up his ass just to do it.

How is that an answer to what I wrote. Honestly - I say that I expect him to be neutral and you write this??

[gm10]

Rachel Alexandra (my choice) winning the 2009 Horse-of-the-Year Award was the best thing to happen in this industry in a long time.

Why? Because it speaks to the competitive side of this game, the desire of the owner to take risk and I really don’t give a damn about the motivation. I wasn’t against Zenyatta because of her resume, but because of her connections refusal to take risk.

There were races at Saratoga and Belmont (e.g., the Personal Ensign, the JCGC. the Whitney, etc) that Zenyatta should have competed in and I truly believe that her connections didn’t want to risk Zenyatta being defeated; they wanted a retired undefeated HOTY champion.

However that wasn’t the case and now we the racing fans have something to look forward too barring health issues to Rachel or Zenyatta.

I personally don’t want to see any special match races for these two horses because there are enough G1 races that both can enter without the “circus atmosphere” of a match race.

Also, we should not overlook the possibility of a good 3yo coming onto the scene or a horse from last year coming into his or her own and becoming a terror on the racetrack.

2010 should be a very good year for the racing fan.

But if they wanted her to remain undefeated surely they would have gone for the Ladies Classic?? This is all with hindsight - at the time RIP Van Winkle looked as good as Ravens Pass.

[joanied]

Originally Posted by Steve R
Regardless of the number of East Coast voters, Zenyatta would have been the first HotY since at least 2000 to have raced within a single racing circuit during the year. I could be wrong, but I believe Tiznow never even raced on the East Coast. Point Given and Azeri raced everywhere. Mineshaft and Rachel Alexandra, East and Central. And so on. Perhaps the result was partly from the number of voters who wanted to see a less conservative, more demanding campaign.


Tiznow won the 2001 BC Classic at Belmont...and ran in the Woodward too....
just so ya know:)

[Cratos]

But if they wanted her to remain undefeated surely they would have gone for the Ladies Classic?? This is all with hindsight - at the time RIP Van Winkle looked as good as Ravens Pass.


Agree, this is all with hindsight, but to keep a horse with the talent that Zenyatta exhibited in the BC Classic “under wraps” so to speak must be sparked by something other than competitiveness; now in 2010 they want to be competitive with Zenyatta and I applaud that decision because it is good for racing.

[gm10]

Agree, this is all with hindsight, but to keep a horse with the talent that Zenyatta exhibited in the BC Classic “under wraps” so to speak must be sparked by something other than competitiveness; now in 2010 they want to be competitive with Zenyatta and I applaud that decision because it is good for racing.

YES - last year I had the feeling she was going backwards a bit. My own figures suggested the same. But now I think she is actually stronger than ever - figures are just figures, they can't always capture all aspects. She looked like a machine in the parade ring @ SA. Would love to see her fly the American flag @ Dubai.

[johnhannibalsmith]

How is that an answer to what I wrote. Honestly - I say that I expect him to be neutral and you write this??

What can't you understand?

He's a valuable contributor - his opinions add to the discussions - why on earth should he remain neutral?

He has never, to my knowledge, edited away the opinons of those that don't agree with him or given some preferential treatment to those that do - so what is exactly your reason for needing a useful contributor to be neutral simply because he gives us a playground to sling dirt in?

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by Steve R
Regardless of the number of East Coast voters, Zenyatta would have been the first HotY since at least 2000 to have raced within a single racing circuit during the year. I could be wrong, but I believe Tiznow never even raced on the East Coast. Point Given and Azeri raced everywhere. Mineshaft and Rachel Alexandra, East and Central. And so on. Perhaps the result was partly from the number of voters who wanted to see a less conservative, more demanding campaign.


Tiznow won the 2001 BC Classic at Belmont...and ran in the Woodward too....
just so ya know:)
Thanks, but I was talking about the year the horse won the HotY award. Point Given won it in 2001 and in 2000, when Tiznow won, the furthest east he got was Churchill and Louisiana Downs.

[tzipi]

I object to your title page where it says 'The right choice'.
You are a moderator - with that comes neutrality. In my opinion anyway.

I dont agree at all. Pace is a horse racing fan and loves the sport. Why shouldn't he voice his opinion? I think he moderates well. I don't agree with Pace all the time and have had arguements with him and wish he didn't disagree with me on some things :D But honestly it's all in fun and I don't think he shouldn't say his feelings or that he should be silent on the board.

If he was a Zenyatta fan and said "wrong choice", would same people be mad? Pace has had alot of opinions since I've been here and never saw posts about how he should be neutral because he's a moderator, till now. JMO ;)

Plus IMO it was obviously the right choice and the votes showed that. It's Horse of the Year. Not horse of her career or Horse of one race. It's the horse with the better campaign and results over the year. That was RA.

[joanied]

I tell ya, I've never seen such a bunch of baby crying, poor sports on one site in all my life. I thought horse players were these Oscar Madison types that couldn't be fazed by a nuclear bomb. Now I see the game infested by Felix Unger and his merry gang of feel-gooders who wince at a wood splinter. :bang:

:lol: Priceless:ThmbUp:

[joanied]

I dont agree at all. Pace is a horse racing fan and loves the sport. Why shouldn't he voice his opinion? I think he moderates well. I don't agree with Pace all the time and have had arguements with him and wish he didn't disagree with me on some things :D But honestly it's all in fun and I don't think he shouldn't say his feelings or that he should be silent on the board.

If he was a Zenyatta fan and said "wrong choice", would same people be mad? Pace has had alot of opinions since I've been here and never saw posts about how he should be neutral because he's a moderator, till now. JMO ;)

Plus IMO it was obviously the right choice and the votes showed that. It's Horse of the Year. Not horse of her career or Horse of one race. It's the horse with the better campaign and results over the year. That was RA.

:ThmbUp:
Let's face it... some folks (members) just can't stand it...the bitching and whiney behavior must be in their DNA...and some just have to make mountains out of molehills...it's amazing, really.

Pace, IMO, has always been square and fair...and, IMO, moderator or not, he is just as entitled to his opinion as anyone else here...

to pick on the text he chose for the Rachel HoY video on the Home page is so petty and ridiculous, I can hardly beleive it...jeeze...give it a rest.
Makes me think regardless of what text he put up...some one was gonna find fault with it...
get over it:p

[Saratoga_Mike]

I love the "Right Choice" tagline.

[PaceAdvantage]

If he was a Zenyatta fan and said "wrong choice", would same people be mad?I would never have written "wrong choice" if Zenyatta had won....not that I wouldn't have thought it or written about inside the board, but I would not have put that as a headline out front for Zenyatta.

[PaceAdvantage]

How is that an answer to what I wrote. Honestly - I say that I expect him to be neutral and you write this??You've been here for almost five years. In all honesty, have I ever been NEUTRAL in any highly debated horse racing topic?

Of course not. But you've waited this long to voice your displeasure?

Odd.

[PaceAdvantage]

But at the end of all these discussion, I agree that she also deserved to win.By your very own words you agree with me! It was the RIGHT CHOICE...so what's the problem? :lol:

[gm10]

By your very own words you agree with me! It was the RIGHT CHOICE...so what's the problem? :lol:

That was never the issue, was it.

[gm10]

I dont agree at all. Pace is a horse racing fan and loves the sport. Why shouldn't he voice his opinion? I think he moderates well. I don't agree with Pace all the time and have had arguements with him and wish he didn't disagree with me on some things :D But honestly it's all in fun and I don't think he shouldn't say his feelings or that he should be silent on the board.

If he was a Zenyatta fan and said "wrong choice", would same people be mad? Pace has had alot of opinions since I've been here and never saw posts about how he should be neutral because he's a moderator, till now. JMO ;)

Plus IMO it was obviously the right choice and the votes showed that. It's Horse of the Year. Not horse of her career or Horse of one race. It's the horse with the better campaign and results over the year. That was RA.

Hey we are civilized people and these aren't issues that can be mathematically proven - so we must agree to disagree on the mentioned issues.

[PaceAdvantage]

That was never the issue, was it.As far as I'm concerned, there was never an issue to begin with...