Zenyatta, Rachel, and comparing beaten lengths

[FenceBored]

Is it a good thing for Zenyatta's reputation that she didn't run in Louisville on Oaks Day?

What if Zenyatta had indeed run in the Louisville Distaff on May 1 and won by her accustomed 1-2 lengths, then 4 races later Rachel wins by 20? Rachel still would have been the heroine of the day, and have successfully upstaged Zenyatta on the day of her 2010 coming out party. How would the memory of that event, the closest they would come to facing each other, effect the sentiment of the Eclipse voters?

[Moyers Pond]

This is the post of somebody that knows exactly ZERO about horse racing.

Beaten lengths means nothing. The best horse in the world, probably the best horse in the last 20 years, Sea The Stars, won most of his races by small margins.

The quality of the field and the time of the race is what matters.

The Oaks was the worst Oaks field ever assembled. None of Rachel's races against fillies was worth anything. Her win in the Preakness, and especially the Haskell is what she can hang her hat on. The Preakness because of the short turn around and barn change, and the Haskell because of the quality of the field. Her win at the SPA was gutty but she beat absolute garbage there.

Zenyatta's BCC win was the most impressive race of the year in the US by a mile. Top horses, won in hand, and she retired UNDEFEATED.

I have no problem with Rachel getting HOY over Zenyatta, but Zenyatta would have beaten Rachel if they ever faced off in a 10f race. Would not even be close on dirt or synthetic.

Say what you want, but Zenyatta NEVER lost in her career, Rachel can't say that. We will find out what Rachel is made of in the BCC, if she shows up. I doubt she even hits the board in a 10f race with top horses.

[Dahoss9698]

This is the post of somebody that knows exactly ZERO about horse racing.


I get quite a chuckle out of a post that starts out like this.



Zenyatta's BCC win was the most impressive race of the year in the US by a mile. Top horses, won in hand, and she retired UNDEFEATED.

I have no problem with Rachel getting HOY over Zenyatta, but Zenyatta would have beaten Rachel if they ever faced off in a 10f race. Would not even be close on dirt or synthetic.

Say what you want, but Zenyatta NEVER lost in her career, Rachel can't say that. We will find out what Rachel is made of in the BCC, if she shows up. I doubt she even hits the board in a 10f race with top horses.

Then includes nonsense like this. Won in hand? Did you watch the race? Top horses? A few turf horses on a different surface and the west coast version of "top horses". Yeah, some real killers in there.

The rest is just speculation, which is based on nothing more than a poor opinion.

[FenceBored]

This is the post of somebody that knows exactly ZERO about horse racing.


And yours is the response of someone who knows absolutely nothing about human psychology. I'm not talking about data, I'm talking about emotional impact. Zenyatta would have won convincingly, but Rachel's win would still have been the highlight of the day.

[levinmpa]

It's all speculation until they meet on a track they both like. I don't lean one way or the other, but in my opinion, Zenyatta cannot be measured in terms of time, lengths won by, or the normal means by which we measure great horses. Zenyatta is the kind of horse that will simply do what she needs to do to win, fast or slow. I have been watching races, and great horses for over 30 years, and never in my life have I seen a stone-cold closer do what she has done. Closers by nature need a fast pace, and a clean trip. This mare has won no matter what the pace scenario. She has been last in nearly every race she's run, and gets there every time. Her trainer says she does not even like synthetic surfaces, especially the surface at Del Mar, but still she wins. The best race of her career prior to the Breeders' Cup Classic was on dirt at Oaklawn. I am hopeful that her recent work tab, means that the owners will not retire her, and she and Rachel A will settle the score on the ovals. I would love to see a 3 race series at Oaklawn, Churchill, and Saratoga. Now that would be something to see. And may the best filly/mare win.

[Kimsus]

Is it a good thing for Zenyatta's reputation that she didn't run in Louisville on Oaks Day?

What if Zenyatta had indeed run in the Louisville Distaff on May 1 and won by her accustomed 1-2 lengths, then 4 races later Rachel wins by 20? Rachel still would have been the heroine of the day, and have successfully upstaged Zenyatta on the day of her 2010 coming out party. How would the memory of that event, the closest they would come to facing each other, effect the sentiment of the Eclipse voters?

To be fair how do you rate Rachel's rep after the Woodward if you are using the lengths analogy when comparing Zen to her? In my opinion Summer Bird was far more impressive in the Travers than Rachel was in the Woodward. Once you get past the hype, duelling a washed up D'tara and holding off the Macho Again(who hasn't done squat since) is not an indelible memory.

[FenceBored]

To be fair how do you rate Rachel's rep after the Woodward if you are using the lengths analogy when comparing Zen to her? In my opinion Summer Bird was far more impressive in the Travers than Rachel was in the Woodward. Once you get past the hype, duelling a washed up D'tara and holding off the Macho Again(who hasn't done squat since) is not an indelible memory.

What the heck are you talking about? I'm talking about one day when they were both entered to run, and the PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT of seeing them both run on that same day in the way which we know they did/would have run. That's it. Nothing about the Woodward, or the Classic, or the 2008 Apple Blossom. Got it.

Are Zenyatta supporters so defensive that they can't stop deflecting for 5 minutes and consider a reasonable question?

[11cashcall]

This is the post of somebody that knows exactly ZERO about horse racing.

Beaten lengths means nothing. The best horse in the world, probably the best horse in the last 20 years, Sea The Stars, won most of his races by small margins.

The quality of the field and the time of the race is what matters.

The Oaks was the worst Oaks field ever assembled. None of Rachel's races against fillies was worth anything. Her win in the Preakness, and especially the Haskell is what she can hang her hat on. The Preakness because of the short turn around and barn change, and the Haskell because of the quality of the field. Her win at the SPA was gutty but she beat absolute garbage there.

Zenyatta's BCC win was the most impressive race of the year in the US by a mile. Top horses, won in hand, and she retired UNDEFEATED.

I have no problem with Rachel getting HOY over Zenyatta, but Zenyatta would have beaten Rachel if they ever faced off in a 10f race. Would not even be close on dirt or synthetic.

Say what you want, but Zenyatta NEVER lost in her career, Rachel can't say that. We will find out what Rachel is made of in the BCC, if she shows up. I doubt she even hits the board in a 10f race with top horses.


The fastest 1 1/4 race in 09 was run by: NOT Macho Again,NOT RA....


ZENYATTA !


On a surface that was'nt scraped down

[Robert Fischer]

the funny thing about beaten lengths, is that Zenyatta's best effort was probably the Clement Hirsch where she won by a head against lightly regarded 22-1 Anabaa's Creation.

[Kimsus]

What the heck are you talking about? I'm talking about one day when they were both entered to run, and the PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT of seeing them both run on that same day in the way which we know they did/would have run. That's it. Nothing about the Woodward, or the Classic, or the 2008 Apple Blossom. Got it.

Are Zenyatta supporters so defensive that they can't stop deflecting for 5 minutes and consider a reasonable question?

Would it also be fair to say the same premise can be applied had Rachel ran in the BC as say the distaff not even the classic as Zen did, that the PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT would have been devestating to Rachel's supporters?

We can pick out bits and pieces to fit a perspective argument.

[Kimsus]

the funny thing about beaten lengths, is that Zenyatta's best effort was probably the Clement Hirsch where she won by a head against lightly regarded 22-1 Anabaa's Creation.

I don't think Sheriff's looked at the calendar and said let's drill her into submission to win the Clement Hirsch and then slide into the BC Classic. Alot of people don't seem to grasp certain trainer's (usually the good ones) gear horses to peak for the important races.

[Tom]

I agree with Fence. Very simple concept - how would the difference be perceived by the voters. Not really rocket science here, and probably it would have been a huge factor by many.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't think Sheriff's looked at the calendar and said let's drill her into submission to win the Clement Hirsch and then slide into the BC Classic. Alot of people don't seem to grasp certain trainer's (usually the good ones) gear horses to peak for the important races.
That's a fair premise, but how much do you think it translates out to?

Assuming she was geared up for the Classic, and not the Clement Hirsch, Does a pumped and prime BC Zenyatta win the the Clement Hirsch by a whole length? 1.5? 0.5?

[Kimsus]

I don't think Rachel's supporters have anything to worry about, if she isn't HOY this year I would be very surprised...It doesn't nor should it mean Zenyatta is not a better horse than Rachel. Infact if these 2 raced in a series of races I would side with Zenyatta, HOY means to the majority of people who had a better year. Now if HOY was being termed who was the better horse, then Zenyatta should win.

[joanied]

I don't think Rachel's supporters have anything to worry about, if she isn't HOY this year I would be very surprised...It doesn't nor should it mean Zenyatta is not a better horse than Rachel. Infact if these 2 raced in a series of races I would side with Zenyatta, HOY means to the majority of people who had a better year. Now if HOY was being termed who was the better horse, then Zenyatta should win.

Welcome :jump: to the forum...I see you just registered...you make a good point, I bolded the sentence...very true, HoY means what horse had the best year racing...not necessarily who the best horse is.
:ThmbUp:

[Kimsus]

Welcome :jump: to the forum...I see you just registered...you make a good point, I bolded the sentence...very true, HoY means what horse had the best year racing...not necessarily who the best horse is.
:ThmbUp:

Cheers.

I would go with Rachel for HOY, however at this point in time I would be hard pressed to say she is better than Zenyatta. To me Zenyatta could be even better on dirt, for her to stay undefeated on a random surface was poly is a far bigger accomplishment than running high dirt beyers. Mind you it was Beyer himself that had to admit to poly numbers being too low and thus were adjusted later on. Very unreliable if one just wants to cite beyers as a means of superiority.

[FenceBored]

[QUOTE=Kimsus]Would it also be fair to say the same premise can be applied had Rachel ran in the BC as say the distaff not even the classic as Zen did, that the PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT would have been devestating to Rachel's supporters?

We can pick out bits and pieces to fit a perspective argument.

Rachel was never going to run at the year's BC, either the Distaff or the Classic, so your premise is invalid.

Many Zenyatta fans have said "if you had only seen her in person you'd feel differently." It just occurred to me that over 100k people almost had the chance to see both of them run in person on the same day, and if Zenyatta had run I don't think it would have had the effect that those fans think.

[Kimsus]

[QUOTE=Kimsus]Would it also be fair to say the same premise can be applied had Rachel ran in the BC as say the distaff not even the classic as Zen did, that the PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT would have been devestating to Rachel's supporters?

We can pick out bits and pieces to fit a perspective argument.

Rachel was never going to run at the year's BC, either the Distaff or the Classic, so your premise is invalid.

Many Zenyatta fans have said "if you had only seen her in person you'd feel differently." It just occurred to me that over 100k people almost had the chance to see both of them run in person on the same day, and if Zenyatta had run I don't think it would have had the effect that those fans think.

Different styles when comparing the 2, Rachel is flashier, Zenyatta uses long efficient strides that don't look as appealing. I think this seeing in person argument can be a faulty one, hopefully it isn't the norm and from what I did read and heard the fans were pretty overwhelmed after the BC when Zenyatta crossed the finish line.

[FenceBored]

[QUOTE=FenceBored]

Different styles when comparing the 2, Rachel is flashier, Zenyatta uses long efficient strides that don't look as appealing. I think this seeing in person argument can be a faulty one, hopefully it isn't the norm and from what I did read and heard the fans were pretty overwhelmed after the BC when Zenyatta crossed the finish line.

:faint: Any more non sequiters you got prepared?

[46zilzal]

Beaten LENGTHS means NOTHING without the yardstick of pace.....and they are even MORE irrelevant comparatively.

I see this all the time when a horse runs a GREAT improving race against a very strong pace and then yokels say "You can't consider that line. The horse was beaten 12 lengths,"...... when it ran the race of it's life but was just in their with the equine equivalent of the Olympic 100 meter dash winner.

Conversely I here people telling me what a great final time a horse ran ON the lead the whole trip. Often, in these cases, the 2nd call pace was so pedestrian that the animal had much more than normal left in the tank to garner at FINAL time better than any other. Use that SLOW early pace and you will not see if often repeated as it was gift from the former field and rarely will happen again. This was how War Emblem won his last prep and Kentucky Derby: no one went seriously with him, so he was able to run a sustained race both times while ON THE LEAD.

Beaten lengths mean didly

[FenceBored]

Beaten LENGTHS means NOTHING without the yardstick of pace.....and they are even MORE irrelevant comparatively.

I see this all the time when a horse runs a GREAT improving race against a very strong pace and then yokels say "You can't consider that line. The horse was beaten 12 lengths,"...... when it ran the race of it's life but was just in their with the equine equivalent of the Olympic 100 meter dash winner.

Conversely I here people telling me what a great final time a horse ran ON the lead the whole trip. Often, in these cases, the 2nd call pace was so pedestrian that the animal had much more than normal left in the tank to garner at FINAL time better than any other. Use that SLOW early pace and you will not see if often repeated as it was gift from the former field and rarely will happen again. This was how War Emblem won his last prep and Kentucky Derby: no one went seriously with him, so he was able to run a sustained race both times while ON THE LEAD.

Beaten lengths mean didly

So, did you even bother to read the original post, or did you compose all that just from the title?

[Show Me the Wire]

That is our beloved Zilly.

[PaceAdvantage]

Top horses, won in hand, and she retired UNDEFEATED.Is it still top horses if the race is being run over a surface the top horse hates and/or three of it's feet are being held together with Elmer's and Prayers?

Oh, and she didn't win "in hand." Unless you mean by "in hand" Mike Smith beating the crap out of her down the stretch...

[Space Monkey]

r three of it's feet are being held together with Elmer's and Prayers?

??? Explain please. Maybe I missed it, but I never heard of Zenyatta having a soundness issue. Your statement makes it appear that she was Big Brown 3 times. :confused:

[Space Monkey]

if the race is being run over a surface the top horse hates

If you mean RA, she doesn't hate the surface, her owner does.

[letswastemoney]

If you mean RA, she doesn't hate the surface, her owner does.
RA's win on synthetic wasn't fast.

[delayjf]

The Oaks and the Haskell just go to show you how good RA is on an off track.

[Robert Fischer]

46 keeps making more and more sense, - i must be losin it

[johnhannibalsmith]

??? Explain please. Maybe I missed it, but I never heard of Zenyatta having a soundness issue. Your statement makes it appear that she was Big Brown 3 times. :confused:

I'm supposing that the reference here is Rip Van Winkle - the competition that was presumed the top rival - and had fairly well-documented foot problems leading into the Classic.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm supposing that the reference here is Rip Van Winkle - the competition that was presumed the top rival - and had fairly well-documented foot problems leading into the Classic.I thought it was obvious...my apologies for writing so poorly...

Yes JHS, I was referring to ol' Rip Van Winkle with my Elmer's and Prayers comment.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I didn't flinch - just didn't want to speak for you with any tone of certainty. :)

[Space Monkey]

'm supposing that the reference here is Rip Van Winkle - the competition that was presumed the top rival - and had fairly well-documented foot problems leading into the Classic

Makes sense now. Thanks.

[Space Monkey]

RA's win on synthetic wasn't fast.

Key word: WIN!!

I do need to look the race up and watch the replay to reach an informed opinion on her poly form. Just going by memory, but at the time, I think I considered the race impressive. I'll get back to you on this.