How impressed are you with 20+ length wins?

[Stillriledup]

Many people Secretariat's Belmont is the greatest performance any thoroughbred has ever accomplished. The ones who don't think its the best effort ever, probably have it ranked in their top 5. I feel that one of the things that gets people over the top on this one is the margin of victory. People are very impressed with the winning margin. Secretariat gets brownie points for winning by more than 20. I don't think that Sec could have gone any faster or won by any more. In other words, he ran up the score.

Why then, does Rachel NOT seem to get the same 'credit' for winning multiple races by 20? Why does she not get 'brownie pts' for her margins? People are quick to say "Well, she beat nothing".

Lets try and put her 20 lengths win(s) in perspective.

Think of how many races are won by 20 or more. I would say very few. Much less than 1 percent. Wouldn't you think that there were plenty of times in horse racing history where a horse won and 'beat nothing' and still didn't win by 20?

How many lengths would she have won the Ky Oaks by had she been asked all the way to the wire? Could she have won by 40?

You just don't see margins of victory like this in modern racing. I know Man O War won some races by bizarre margins, but in modern racing, we don't see these types of wins.

I would love to see all the non sloppy track graded stakes wins in the last 40 years that were 20 lengths or more. (i know, technically she didnt win by 20, but i'm rounding up).

Can anyone remember horses winning by 20 or more in graded races? Maybe Landaluce won a race by 20. Ruffian never won a race by 20. You would have to imagine that in at least one of her lifetime races, Ruffian 'beat nothing' and still never beat 'nothing' by 20 or more.

[bisket]

i think secratariat gets browny points because of the 1 1/2 mile distance. that extra 3/8 does make the level of difficulty much harder. horses just don't keep running like secratariat did after those early fractions in 1 1/2 mile race. its the speed with the stamina that makes his performance spectacular. 1 1/8 mile races are a classy speed horse like rachel's best distance. it is unusual for the 20 length win, but in a 1 1/8 mile race i don't think its as difficult an accomplishment to freak like rachel did. the 1 1/8 mile distance is the edge of a speed horses maximum effort without the falloff you normally see with horses with rachel's speed. regardless her win in the oaks is quite an accomplishment. that coupled with the preakness, haskell, and woodward makes her the hoy in my book.

[Linny]

Secretariat gets extra points for blasting the 1 1/2 mile record by 2 seconds after being eased for nearly 3 furlongs.
Most 20+ length wins speak more clearly about the competition than the winner.

[tzipi]

Turcotte said he never asked Secretariat to run in that Belmont. Scary.

[cj]

If the Oaks was 1 1/2 miles RA would have won by 50.

[maxwell]

I'm very impressed if the horse is 10/1. If the horse is 1/9 ....

There wasn't much money to be made on Big Red but his Belmont effort was out of this world.

[Jasonm921]

"If the Oaks was 1 1/2 miles RA would have won by 50."-CJ

maybe more perhaps....simply un-be-lievable!

[tzipi]

To me the lengths margin shock value depends on the time of the race. Ruffian won many races by double digit lengths while setting records. I've seen a claimer at Aqueduct win by 18+ length,beating nags and running a slow time. That doesn't mean anything to me.

[Cratos]

Many people Secretariat's Belmont is the greatest performance any thoroughbred has ever accomplished. The ones who don't think its the best effort ever, probably have it ranked in their top 5. I feel that one of the things that gets people over the top on this one is the margin of victory. People are very impressed with the winning margin. Secretariat gets brownie points for winning by more than 20. I don't think that Sec could have gone any faster or won by any more. In other words, he ran up the score.

Why then, does Rachel NOT seem to get the same 'credit' for winning multiple races by 20? Why does she not get 'brownie pts' for her margins? People are quick to say "Well, she beat nothing".

Lets try and put her 20 lengths win(s) in perspective.

Think of how many races are won by 20 or more. I would say very few. Much less than 1 percent. Wouldn't you think that there were plenty of times in horse racing history where a horse won and 'beat nothing' and still didn't win by 20?

How many lengths would she have won the Ky Oaks by had she been asked all the way to the wire? Could she have won by 40?

You just don't see margins of victory like this in modern racing. I know Man O War won some races by bizarre margins, but in modern racing, we don't see these types of wins.

I would love to see all the non sloppy track graded stakes wins in the last 40 years that were 20 lengths or more. (i know, technically she didnt win by 20, but i'm rounding up).

Can anyone remember horses winning by 20 or more in graded races? Maybe Landaluce won a race by 20. Ruffian never won a race by 20. You would have to imagine that in at least one of her lifetime races, Ruffian 'beat nothing' and still never beat 'nothing' by 20 or more.
When I initially read the title of your post I felt it to be intriguing, but after reading your post and your comments about Ruffian I concluded either you wasn’t there or refuse to believe what you saw.

In my opinion and in 42 years of watching racing in person and electronically the absolute best two fillies were Ruffian and Go for Wand; the best race mare was Zenyatta.

[tzipi]

I agree totally with poster above about Ruffian.

[bisket]

If the Oaks was 1 1/2 miles RA would have won by 50.
that speaks more to who was in the race than ra herself.

[cj]

Yes, but I think that is always the case when horses win by large margins.

[tzipi]

that speaks more to who was in the race than ra herself.

Just like Man O Wars 100 length win over Hoodwink,a horse who was entered as a good hearted move by his owner and for the 2nd place money wasn't ridden hard at all. Man O War was only restrained at the end. Imagine RA or Zenyatta picking on a big time lesser small circuit horse and winning by that much. They would say who cares and it was pathetic competition. Whether they ran a record time or not, talk about the time,not the 100 lengths. It's such a joke when people talk about the story and lengths win and that no one will ever do that again.
At least RA had some talented young horses in the Oaks who were running to win.

[bisket]

most times this is the case. although with secratariat the competition was a good field.

[affirmedny]

most times this is the case. although with secratariat the competition was a good field.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't a good field save for Sham who hit the gate at the start and lost a few teeth which is what made him so rank. He never ran again. I don't think any of the other horses in the race ever won another race. Were their hearts broken (which makes for a better legend) or did they just stink?

[Cratos]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't a good field save for Sham who hit the gate at the start and lost a few teeth which is what made him so rank. He never ran again. I don't think any of the other horses in the race ever won another race. Were their hearts broken (which makes for a better legend) or did they just stink?

The horses in the 1973 Belmont Stakes were Secretariat, Sham, Twice A Prince, My Gallant, and Pvt Smiles.

I don’t ever remember any mentioning of Sham having a problem in the gate and he ran second a head apart from Secretariat for the first ½-mile of the Belmont and remained second up to the end of the 1 mile point and then he just stop running to finish last.

[bisket]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't a good field save for Sham who hit the gate at the start and lost a few teeth which is what made him so rank. He never ran again. I don't think any of the other horses in the race ever won another race. Were their hearts broken (which makes for a better legend) or did they just stink?
you can get it right from the horses mouth. at about 4 minutes into this video pincay says, "my instructions were to be very close to secratariat from the word go".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-KvaeuIIsw
no lets take into consideration that sham also set a track record in that same derby that secratariat won. secratariat was just faster in the derby, and faster overall. now how can anyone say that rachel's win is similar to this? that field in the oaks were a below average group of FILLIES. now IF rachel could beat summer bird or say curlin or maybe rags to riches at 1 1/2 miles by even a head. then we can make a comparison to say affirmed or seattle slew. :rolleyes: but comparing rachel's oaks to secratariat's belmont is like comparing the 69 mets to the yankees of the 40's and 50's :lol: you just can't get better than perfection.

[WinterTriangle]

I've seen a claimer at Aqueduct win by 18+ length,beating nags and running a slow time. That doesn't mean anything to me.

GIve me a long race, with all the horses equally talented, and I am impressed by the one who overcomes obstacles and wins anyway. One of the reasons I liked Sea The Stars last race.

Great talent running against lessers doesn't impress me, so when they win by 20 lengths......I'm yawning.

Give me a real war horse, like john henry, it was said that he wanted to win so bad that he would actually bite the other horses--- and when he finished in second place in a tight race he would walk to the winner circle. :lol: That was one tenacious, determined horse.

I Want Revenge's race at Aq, where he horrible start and traffic in the lane but stormed home for the win. Afleet Alex in the preakness. Zarkava in the Arc, running against boys, soft ground(not her forte), bad post, terrible start, then terrible traffic---probably one of the top 3 fillies in the last 20 years.

[Stillriledup]

GIve me a long race, with all the horses equally talented, and I am impressed by the one who overcomes obstacles and wins anyway. One of the reasons I liked Sea The Stars last race.

Great talent running against lessers doesn't impress me, so when they win by 20 lengths......I'm yawning.

Give me a real war horse, like john henry, it was said that he wanted to win so bad that he would actually bite the other horses--- and when he finished in second place in a tight race he would walk to the winner circle. :lol: That was one tenacious, determined horse.

I Want Revenge's race at Aq, where he horrible start and traffic in the lane but stormed home for the win. Afleet Alex in the preakness. Zarkava in the Arc, running against boys, soft ground(not her forte), bad post, terrible start, then terrible traffic---probably one of the top 3 fillies in the last 20 years.

But, those are great and professional racehorses and deserve kudos for being able to overcome odds to win races. Horses who win by bizarre margins, well, that's something different to be impressed about. Its a different kind of impressiveness. I get your point, some horses just know how to get it done and know how to fight for wins. That's also a very impressive trait to have.