Trainer Gary Stevens

[DJofSD]

Has he had his first training win yet?

[alhattab]

According to Sat DRF he was 1-15 in 2009

[Fingal]

Forget the horse's name, but Stevens won a 6 1/2 race down the hill at Santa Anita during the Oak Tree meet.

[WinterTriangle]

Looks like it's gonna be a steep learning curve for him.

today's San Gorgino. I left Diamondarella off ticket in selections area as I thought it absurd that Stevens would think he knew something Angel Penna didn't. Penna has said he didn't think she would like more than a 1 turn mile..plus the fact he spent 2 years NOT entering D in that way..... would kinda make ya wonder.

Dismal turf ITM/wins at this distance for both Diamondarell's sire or broodmare sire. Triple whammy: Solis didn't *bring it* on any of the other horses when he rode them---who were also in this race. Stevens with 0% trainer stats for stakes races.

I am not a believer in ignoring every stat simply based on class of a horse... esp when asked to do something they've never done. She went off as the favorite.

[Space Monkey]

Down through the years I've seen more than a few great jockeys fail at training. Angel Cordero comes to mind first. It has always amazed me. I thought Gary would be different. Time will tell, but it hasn't started out very well.

[jtat]

Diamondrella was a good horse and she made my Belmont Day. I thought she should have won today's race at Santa Anita regardless of the trainer switch from Penna Jr. to Stevens. 1 1/8 might have been pushing it a bit but she was a shell of herself. The sharpies with IEAH have to be wondering why they fired Angel Penna Jr. as he always had Diamondrella fit and ready to run.

[WinterTriangle]

Angel Penna Jr. as he always had Diamondrella fit and ready to run.

At 1 mile and below.

D was 11th in the BC Sprint over Turf at 6.5F-------so your reasoning is that she should have no problem winning a turf race at 1 1/8 miles, a distance she has never raced before, 2 months later, under a trainer with 0% stakes win stats no less? :confused:

D is 6 years old. So you think there's no *reason* that in 3 full years of racing, Penna (and Violette) never stretched her out? Looking at the PPs she was the *only* horse in the race running at mostly sprinter distances and a few at a mile.


I can appreciate you like her due to the Belmont race. I like her too. She's a nice mare. But she's only won 8 of 20 races, and not like a world beater . The way we race horses, she probably is just not a horse who is going to maintain condition and vitality at 6.

[therussmeister]

Down through the years I've seen more than a few great jockeys fail at training. Angel Cordero comes to mind first. It has always amazed me. I thought Gary would be different. Time will tell, but it hasn't started out very well.

This certainly isn't unique to horse racing. It seems in a lot of sports, many of the best coaches were average players at best.

[Dahoss9698]

At 1 mile and below.

D was 11th in the BC Sprint over Turf at 6.5F-------so your reasoning is that she should have no problem winning a turf race at 1 1/8 miles, a distance she has never raced before, 2 months later, under a trainer with 0% stakes win stats no less? :confused:

D is 6 years old. So you think there's no *reason* that in 3 full years of racing, Penna (and Violette) never stretched her out? Looking at the PPs she was the *only* horse in the race running at mostly sprinter distances and a few at a mile.


I can appreciate you like her due to the Belmont race. I like her too. She's a nice mare. But she's only won 8 of 20 races, and not like a world beater . The way we race horses, she probably is just not a horse who is going to maintain condition and vitality at 6.

I agree that she doesn't belong in races farther than a mile. But, I think you are underestimating her quality a bit. She isn't a world beater, but aside from Ventura she was the best grass filly we had in the US last year.

Only winning 8 of 20? That's pretty good in my opinion, especially nowadays, but you have to look at the what she did while with Angel Penna. When he got her she was 1 for 8. He got her to win 8 of 10 races and also got her to not only win a mile race, but also a 2 turn mile race, beating last years eclipse winner for turf female twice. The only bad races she ran for Penna was on the crap at Presque Isle and down the hill at Santa Anita.

She probably has lost a step, but really, who knows because they keep racing her. She needs a break IMO and she needs to get back in Penna's hands, which will never happen.

[bisket]

my opinion of gary stevens as a jock is an arrogant arse. when your a jock that won't hurt you. now as a trainer it'll get you in trouble. especially when you start thinking you know what a horse can do. when it conflicts with the actual ability of the horse. in my opinion the best trainers let the horse show them what the horse is capable of. its a trade that demands a level of humility to be succesful. take frankel for instance. to other people he could be arrogant, but when it came to the animals. he had a humility and understanding that you rarely see. he also had a talent for training and getting the best out of his animals. i could be wrong, but i don't see this in gary stevens.

[plainolebill]

He impresses me as somewhat less brilliant than he believes.

[WinterTriangle]

Bisket, I doubt that IEAH expected Stevens to round Diamondarella back into form at age 6 in a matter of weeks. I am not willing to bash Stevens for this.

Penna still had her 11/07 when she was 11th in the BC. Then under Stevens she comes in 3rd in the Matriarch in a very short field 21 days later....against Ventura no less.

I'm just saying she wasn't in form, and I personally didn't expect a 0% win trainer to "bring it" in a stakes race and create some kind of miracle, on top of it all running her further than she's ever gone. I guess I don't *get* the experimentation with a 6 year old mare. :confused:


Dahoss, did you see the post parade? I did not, just wondering what people saw.

BTW, another subject: you look at some of these tout sites, Eponies for instance, I just looked at and they had her at the top under "form". She came in 11th and 3rd in her last races. The workouts weren't there either------ maybe they were using her form from back in the Summer of 09. :D These software handicapping programs crack me up sometimes.

also, I'm not underestimating her overall-----just for *this* race at this time in her life. She was knocking 'em down in summer of 09 and fall of 08. I really am not taking that away from her at all, sorry if it sounded that way.

[lsosa54]

[QUOTE=WinterTriangle]
BTW, another subject: you look at some of these tout sites, Eponies for instance, I just looked at and they had her at the top under "form". She came in 11th and 3rd in her last races. The workouts weren't there either------ maybe they were using her form from back in the Summer of 09. :D These software handicapping programs crack me up sometimes.
[QUOTE]

Programs like Race Prophet had her last in terms of their "fitness" rating and Handifast had her next to last in terms of their FM or Form rating, so I guess it depends what tool you're using.

[bisket]

theres no way the matriarch had anything to do with stevens. that win should have been pena's. not enough time for stevens to affect the horse's performance.

[tundral]

Gary is a horseman raised and bred into this game. So anything he does with these animals he will be a hall of fame act. Wish him the best in 2010

[big frank]

I feel Stevens will not be a very good trainer.. I think handicapping and knowing your horses and the other horses you face is very important. Listening to Gary on tv makes me think he is not that sharp.Remember Bobby Frankel was a great handicapper and knew what his horses could and couldnt do.. I also think Ron Ellis is a sharp handicapper and it helps him pick his spots and what distances he should run his horses at. It also helps to be a good handicapper when it comes to giving the jock instructions..

[Stillriledup]

I feel Stevens will not be a very good trainer.. I think handicapping and knowing your horses and the other horses you face is very important. Listening to Gary on tv makes me think he is not that sharp.Remember Bobby Frankel was a great handicapper and knew what his horses could and couldnt do.. I also think Ron Ellis is a sharp handicapper and it helps him pick his spots and what distances he should run his horses at. It also helps to be a good handicapper when it comes to giving the jock instructions..

Stevens will be as good of a trainer as he wants to be. A lot of being a trainer is hiring amazing help, having great exercise riders and being able to deal with owners. One of the biggest key's to success as a big time horse trainer is to be able to convince skeptical old men why they should give you an expensive investment to manage. Since there haven't really been too many ex riders who went on to make great trainers, Gary has an uphill climb.

I think that if Gary was serious about being a great trainer, he would have taken an assistant trainers job with a top barn and really learn. But, he decided that he's Gary Stevens and being an asst trainer is beneath him, so, he's going to have to learn on the fly.

[Space Monkey]

true, russ. Larry Bird, Ted Williams!! :lol:

[Space Monkey]

Gary is a horseman raised and bred into this game. So anything he does with these animals he will be a hall of fame act. Wish him the best in 2010

I agree, and I thought his analysis when he started on TVG was outstanding. I've read his bio, and I am a fan, both of him as a jock and as a person. Good luck Gary. I'm hoping he can beat the odds.

[Niko]

I think that if Gary was serious about being a great trainer, he would have taken an assistant trainers job with a top barn and really learn. But, he decided that he's Gary Stevens and being an asst trainer is beneath him, so, he's going to have to learn on the fly.

good point

He's ridden horses in the morning, I'm sure he knows a bit about how a horse is doing but I wonder where he did learn to train. I would certainly think you'd have to train under someone a bit to get a good idea of how and when to work a horse, manage their campaigns etc. Vets will take care of what they need to.

[Pace Cap'n]

Wasn't his dad a trainer?

[senortout]

Ok look I'm gonna bring something up here and some won't like what I say.

What's your opinion(s) of JV Berg? One of the best horsemen out there, in my opinion, yet lately....nuttin'....a bet against.

What's your opinion of R Mcnally?....another top horseman...and lately?.....
nuttin'......

So your opinions on a new trainer are certainly short-sighted, to say the least.

I guess it belongs in another thread, but why the big drop-off in performance from these two mentioned trainers....and don't forget DW Lukas either.

senortout

ps its probably cause they don't get the stock they used to...thats the main reason, I believe

[DJofSD]

So, as a trainer, Gary is just as good as Jack, Ron and Wayne. Got it.

[Show Me the Wire]

Unless you are giving Gary Steven's an expensive investment to train, it seems silly to discuss the merits of whether or not he is a capale trainer.

[DJofSD]

I would expect him to claim or purchase runners for himself, first. Then let's see how he does before daddy war bucks start to foot the bills.

[Jackal]

Another reason trainers drop off after they become famous is they don't take as many risks. They stick with the people and products that have been using when they were successful.

Horse training is like any other business. After a while businesses get top heavy and set in their ways. Most of an established trainers employees have been there a long time. They have no knowledge of the condition of other stables stock. Trainers that don't have an established staff, hire staff often and get the inside info on claimers.

[ranchwest]

Unless you are giving Gary Steven's an expensive investment to train, it seems silly to discuss the merits of whether or not he is a capale trainer.

Do you not wager on races in which Stevens has an entry?

[Show Me the Wire]

Do you not wager on races in which Stevens has an entry?

As of yet, no. If I do, he will be analyzed the same as any other new trainer, meaning wait and see if he proves himself capable of placing horses in appropriate conditions and having the horses fit. So far I am not impressed with his placement.

However, this thread seems to imply more than an analysis of a new trainer regarding the fitness or placement of his stock and more about if Stevens should be given stock to train.

Why would handicappers debate whether or not a certain trainer should be given stock by investors? Whether or not Stevens should or should not recieve stock is an owner concern and not in the realm of handicapping.

[ranchwest]

As of yet, no. If I do, he will be analyzed the same as any other new trainer, meaning wait and see if he proves himself capable of placing horses in appropriate conditions and having the horses fit. So far I am not impressed with his placement.

However, this thread seems to imply more than an analysis of a new trainer regarding the fitness or placement of his stock and more about if Stevens should be given stock to train.

Why would handicappers debate whether or not a certain trainer should be given stock by investors? Whether or not Stevens should or should not recieve stock is an owner concern and not in the realm of handicapping.

Good post. I think maybe the gist of your previous post didn't squeeze through my end of the internet.

[Grits]

However, this thread seems to imply more than an analysis of a new trainer regarding the fitness or placement of his stock and more about if Stevens should be given stock to train.

Why would handicappers debate whether or not a certain trainer should be given stock by investors? Whether or not Stevens should or should not recieve stock is an owner concern and not in the realm of handicapping.

Another example of why one finds it easy to respect ShowMe's posts.

[Stillriledup]

Stevens 'off' seems to be a profitable angle.

[lamboguy]

if you ever listen to HRTV, G.STEVENS and LAFITT PINCAY JR. always refer to races as being "jockey races". after the race they both tell you how exceptional a job the rider did to get the horse to win, and how great the guy that rode the 4th place horse did to keep the horse out of trouble and save 4th money for the owner.

[Leonard]

As of yet, no. If I do, he will be analyzed the same as any other new trainer, meaning wait and see if he proves himself capable of placing horses in appropriate conditions and having the horses fit. So far I am not impressed with his placement.

However, this thread seems to imply more than an analysis of a new trainer regarding the fitness or placement of his stock and more about if Stevens should be given stock to train.

Why would handicappers debate whether or not a certain trainer should be given stock by investors? Whether or not Stevens should or should not recieve stock is an owner concern and not in the realm of handicapping.

This seems to be the most level headed response regarding Gary Stevens in his new role as a trainer. I have met and spoken with Stevens a few times at Keeneland and, to me anyway, he seemed like a nice enough guy. But that, in itself, has nothing to do with his training ability. The same goes for the quality of stock he recieves (it doesn't matter if his stable is full of stakes horses or 10k claimers). Results matter. How well Stevens trains and places his horses will determine his success as a trainer and nothing else.

Right now I don't think there is enough of a record to determine whether or not Stevens eventually succeeds as a trainer or fails. There is certainly no reason to wager on a Stevens-trained horse simply because he is the trainer at this point.

[Leonard]

if you ever listen to HRTV, G.STEVENS and LAFITT PINCAY JR. always refer to races as being "jockey races". after the race they both tell you how exceptional a job the rider did to get the horse to win, and how great the guy that rode the 4th place horse did to keep the horse out of trouble and save 4th money for the owner.

That is because they are commenting on what they know best. A breeder acting as a commentator is more likely to talk about a horse's breeding while a trainer will focus more on a horse's training.

In discussing a 4th place "jockey race" they may very well be commenting on something they have encountered time and again -- the aftermath of dealing with pissed off connections who didn't get a little 4th place money compared to not-so-pissed connections that at least got something for riding a horse out. I would be surprised if a jockey-centric commentator DIDN'T comment on what they see as important -- getting in the money (connections, not necessarily those wagering on the race).

[Relwob Owner]

Seems to me that Stevens has gone through what many athletes have in terms of struggling to find a fit after retiring from what they do best......I thought he was terrific in Seabiscuit and if he is going to be featured in the new HBO show about racing, I hope he likes it and the show turns out as good as I think it will be.......

[Dahoss9698]

This seems to be the most level headed response regarding Gary Stevens in his new role as a trainer. I have met and spoken with Stevens a few times at Keeneland and, to me anyway, he seemed like a nice enough guy. But that, in itself, has nothing to do with his training ability. The same goes for the quality of stock he recieves (it doesn't matter if his stable is full of stakes horses or 10k claimers). Results matter. How well Stevens trains and places his horses will determine his success as a trainer and nothing else.

Right now I don't think there is enough of a record to determine whether or not Stevens eventually succeeds as a trainer or fails. There is certainly no reason to wager on a Stevens-trained horse simply because he is the trainer at this point.

Just for the sake of clarity, because it isn't mentioned in this thread, Stevens decided he didn't want to train anymore back in January.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65724

[Leonard]

Just for the sake of clarity, because it isn't mentioned in this thread, Stevens decided he didn't want to train anymore back in January.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65724


Then I would definitely avoid betting on any horses where he is the listed trainer. D'OH! :faint:

[mountainman]

theres no way the matriarch had anything to do with stevens. that win should have been pena's. not enough time for stevens to affect the horse's performance.
Opinion varies and so does evidence on the time required to turn an aquisition around. I'm not a big believer in crediting the previous trainer for any performance-good OR bad-under the current conditioner's name. I've seen too many ABRUPT reversals of form. If this implies that drugs may often be the catalyst....oh well.

[slew101]

Former Stevens horse scored in Santa Anita's 6th on Sunday. First time for Kathy Walsh, moved up from maiden 75,000 to MSW for second start. Won at 6-1.

[Fingal]

You beat me too it. Unfortunately, the 1st start / barn change from Stevens angle is going to run out eventualy. :(

[mountainman]

Seems to me that Stevens has gone through what many athletes have in terms of struggling to find a fit after retiring from what they do best.............

He reminds me of Jethro Bodine. One week a fry cook..the next a double knot spy..etc..etc..

[Robert Goren]

if you ever listen to HRTV, G.STEVENS and LAFITT PINCAY JR. always refer to races as being "jockey races". after the race they both tell you how exceptional a job the rider did to get the horse to win, and how great the guy that rode the 4th place horse did to keep the horse out of trouble and save 4th money for the owner. Dumb me. I always thought "jockey races" meant something else.;)

[mountainman]

Dumb me. I always thought "jockey races" meant something else.;)
And I thought the term was 'boat race.' My dad taught me that one when I was eight. From hearing him mutter on the way home, I really DID wonder how I'd managed to miss all those speed boats whipping around the track. Kind of like I wondered how grim-faced Vic Morrow could find himself pitted each week against soooo many guys named Jerry.

[Relwob Owner]

He reminds me of Jethro Bodine. One week a fry cook..the next a double knot spy..etc..etc..


I hope he settles on one thing and enjoys it.....I really thought he was a good actor in Seabiscuit and I hope the new HOB show pans out for him......

[mountainman]

....I really thought he was a good actor in Seabiscuit ......

He played a cocky jockey. Think that was a reach?

[DJofSD]

Well, if they ever did a movie about George Woolf, he'd be a shoe-in.

[mountainman]

Well, if they ever did a movie about George Woolf, he'd be a shoe-in.
Same with me and John Daly. I'm expecting the call any day now. I'll even start smoking for the role. Not sure abt the stomach staple.