Michael Dickinson on Zenyatta..

[tzipi]

One of the detractors is the man who trained Zenyatta's mother, Vertigineux.

"She's very overrated," said Michael Dickinson, now retired as a trainer and marketing his Tapeta racing surface around the world. "She's been beating up on nothing. Tell me a good horse she has beaten. The other horse [Rachel] would destroy her.

"What's she beaten this year? Life and death to beat some horses you and I can't name. She's the most overrated thing."

Shocking considering he trained her mother. This was before the BC run but I never thought much of that field(IMO) but still,I didn't think this would be what I would be reading when I saw,"Dickinsons take on Zenyatta" :eek: Even though those fields before were not much at all,I think the talk is a little harsh from a man who trained her mother. They are usually on the side of the horse. I mean,I love Rachel but I still think Zen is a talented girl.

[Saratoga_Mike]

One of the detractors is the man who trained Zenyatta's mother, Vertigineux.

"She's very overrated," said Michael Dickinson, now retired as a trainer and marketing his Tapeta racing surface around the world. "She's been beating up on nothing. Tell me a good horse she has beaten. The other horse [Rachel] would destroy her.

"What's she beaten this year? Life and death to beat some horses you and I can't name. She's the most overrated thing."

Shocking considering he trained her mother. This was before the BC run but I never thought much of that field(IMO) but still,I didn't think this would be what I would be reading when I saw,"Dickinsons take on Zenyatta" :eek: Even though those fields before were not much at all,I think the talk is a little harsh from a man who trained her mother. They are usually on the side of the horse. I mean,I love Rachel but I still think Zen is a talented girl.

Good objective analysis, as his economic interest certainly lies with promoting "alternative" dirt surfaces. But Dickinson has always spoken the truth, and he continues...

[Robert Fischer]

It's yet another good example of a prominent, high quality, skilled figure in a related field not knowing what the hell he is talking about.

It is a good example of why this game remains beatable. It is also a phenomenon that is extremely common in the sports world, and I imagine in any field where subjective nuanced opinions come into play.

to be most fair
a) - "technically" we are talking opinions and therefore "technically" this opinion couldn't be "proven" wrong

b) it may be fascinating to hear Dickinson wax on and on about his opinions, and I am judging him from one snippet of a comment I happen to disagree with on a highly debated subject.

[Jackal]

Michael Dickinson is like most horse trainers. "a horse trainer is the only person on earth you would trust with a million dollars, but wouldn't invite home for dinner."

I have heard that one myself a few times. :confused:

[Cardus]

Unless you are thinking about whatever impact Dickinson's words might have on Vertigineux' value -- which I suspect is zero at this point -- why must Dickinson speak only well of Zenyatta?

[tzipi]

Michael Dickinson is like most horse trainers. "a horse trainer is the only person on earth you would trust with a million dollars, but wouldn't invite home for dinner."

I have heard that one myself a few times. :confused:

Out of all professions for that saying huh? If some were still alive. Bobby Frankel,Zito,Linda Rice,H Allen Jerkens,Shullhofer,Michael Matz,Richard Mandella,etc,etc,along with many others are allowed over for dinner anytime :D Sorry just don't get the saying and how it goes with trainers or Dickinson IMO.

[matthewsiv]

She is a far better horse than he was a racehorse trainer.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[tzipi]

She is a far better horse than he was a racehorse trainer.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well his opinion on Zen aside,Dickinson trained the Da Hoss to win the 1996 and 1998 Breeders' Cup Mile despite the horse only having one race in between due to injury. Unbelievable training feat. Also trained the first five finishers in the 1983 Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Holds a couple World Guiness Book of Records as for one he trained 12 winners in one day! That's insane. He also won tons of stakes races over the years in America. The guy was one hell of a trainer.

[Steve R]

She is a far better horse than he was a racehorse trainer.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
It appears you know absolutely nothing about Dickinson's legendary status as a trainer achieved even before he came to the US. He is arguably among the greatest trainers in the history of English racing.

Winner of Racing Post poll of the 100 greatest training feats in the last 100 years (for training first 5 finishers of 1983 Cheltenham Gold Cup)

Elected to the British Steeplechasing Hall of Fame in its inaugural year

Champion steeplechase trainer by numbers and purse money won, 3 successive years

In the Guinness Book of World Records four times, including holding the world record for most winners in one day – 12

Won the King George VI Steeplechase, 3 successive years

Pacemaker International National Hunt trainer of the year, twice

Won the Breeders Cup Mile, 1996 and 1998, with Da Hoss, the second after a two-year layoff

[toussaud]

She is a far better horse than he was a racehorse trainer.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
wanna get away?

http://www.nawbo.org/imageuploads/video_southwest.jpg

[Stillriledup]

wanna get away?

http://www.nawbo.org/imageuploads/video_southwest.jpg

:lol:

[Rise Over Run]

What about his training job with A Heuvo?

[tzipi]

What about his training job with A Heuvo?

"What made A Huevo an intriguing horse in the DeFrancis was that the race was his third start off a layoff — a layoff of four years. After his win in the West Virginia race, A Huevo had suffered various injuries. Dickinson gave him two years off to recover but was dissatisfied. So he gave him another year. Still not ready. One more year? Yup, that does the trick."

Brings him back after all that and wins the DeFrancis. After A Huevo won by 2 lengths,race caller Dave Rodman said,"Another Michael Dickinson miracle!" Yup, Michael Dickinson doesn't know horses or horse training :D

[miesque]

"What made A Huevo an intriguing horse in the DeFrancis was that the race was his third start off a layoff — a layoff of four years. After his win in the West Virginia race, A Huevo had suffered various injuries. Dickinson gave him two years off to recover but was dissatisfied. So he gave him another year. Still not ready. One more year? Yup, that does the trick."

Brings him back after all that and wins the DeFrancis. After A Huevo won by 2 lengths,race caller Dave Rodman said,"Another Michael Dickinson miracle!" Yup, Michael Dickinson doesn't know horses or horse training :D

I don't think what you quoted was exactly what was being referred to

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/30450/a-huevo-euthanized-after-w-va-classic

A Huevo, a 9-year-old gelding owned by Mark Hopkins and winner of the 2003 Frank J. De Francis Memorial Dash (gr. I) was euthanized after being pulled up soon after the start and vanned off following the West Virginia Breeders' Classic Stakes the evening of Oct. 8. The son of Cool Joe had been the 1-2 favorite in the nine-furlong race at Charles Town Races and Slots

His start in this year's West Virginia Breeders' Classic came after more than a 10-month layoff. He had not started since finishing 11th in the Fred Hooper Handicap (gr. III) at Calder last Dec. 18.

[PaceAdvantage]

This was before the BC run...You seem to just gloss over this VERY important little set of words in your initial post.

I think most people would agree that prior to the BC, Zenyatta had beaten little in her four trips to the plate in 2009.

So why would his words shock you, given the fact that they were made pre-BC?

[tzipi]

I don't think what you quoted was exactly what was being referred to

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/30450/a-huevo-euthanized-after-w-va-classic

A Huevo, a 9-year-old gelding owned by Mark Hopkins and winner of the 2003 Frank J. De Francis Memorial Dash (gr. I) was euthanized after being pulled up soon after the start and vanned off following the West Virginia Breeders' Classic Stakes the evening of Oct. 8. The son of Cool Joe had been the 1-2 favorite in the nine-furlong race at Charles Town Races and Slots

His start in this year's West Virginia Breeders' Classic came after more than a 10-month layoff. He had not started since finishing 11th in the Fred Hooper Handicap (gr. III) at Calder last Dec. 18.


Oh,well name me a trainer who hasn't had a breakdown in their career. I mean it happens to everyone. We are going to pull one horse out and use it against him? How can anyone question this guys training career and his talent?

[Tom]

He has an opinion and a butt. I don't really care about either.
I see him as a snake oil salesman for the garbage he is selling.

[miesque]

Oh,well name me a trainer who hasn't had a breakdown in their career. I mean it happens to everyone. We are going to pull one horse out and use it against him? How can anyone question this guys training career and his talent?

I am not questioning his training talent, I was clarifying a prior post. However, I would ask that you take a closer look at exactly what I was highlighting and think about why I was doing so. Breakdowns do occur even to the best of trainers, but that said, I think if you do not pay attention to the past performances and more importantly the breaks, especially the severe breaks, in past performances line, then you may be glossing over some pertinent information.

[tzipi]

I am not questioning his training talent, I was clarifying a prior post. However, I would ask that you take a closer look at exactly what I was highlighting and think about why I was doing so. Breakdowns do occur even to the best of trainers, but that said, I think if you do not pay attention to the past performances and more importantly the breaks, especially the severe breaks, in past performances line, then you may be glossing over some pertinent information.

No I understand but mentioning a breakdown in a discussion about someone training talent kinda caught me off guard then. Only because what trainer has never had one? I understand breaks in running too and I do pay attention to breaks in the PP's. Now he always had more because he would rest horses and lay up horses after races because they were worn or there was a small problem. He was always a good horsemen.

There's a ton of horses with very few breaks in their PP's,not because they are healthy and fine and better horsemen but because their connections do not care and just want some kind of money rolling in. You can tell because these horses finish up the track race after race without a break or a very short one. Or stakes horses who are tired but constantly run just so they can get that occasional 3rd,4th or 5th money. Scotty Schulhoffer was a great horsemen and many of his horses had alot of breaks in their PP's. He didn't run tired horses or horses with an ailment.

There was one trainer in NY years back who was known to keep horses running with no rests at all. People wondered his magic. His magic was standing his horses in ice buckets 30 or more min before a race and then putting on iced down front wraps in the paddock. Those horses futures weren't bright.

[miesque]

No I understand but mentioning a breakdown in a discussion about someone training talent kinda caught me off guard then. Only because what trainer has never had one? I understand breaks in running too and I do pay attention to breaks in the PP's. Now he always had more because he would rest horses and lay up horses after races because they were worn or there was a small problem. He was always a good horsemen.

There's a ton of horses with very few breaks in their PP's,not because they are healthy and fine and better horsemen but because their connections do not care and just want some kind of money rolling in. You can tell because these horses finish up the track race after race without a break or a very short one. Or stakes horses who are tired but constantly run just so they can get that occasional 3rd,4th or 5th money. Scotty Schulhoffer was a great horsemen and many of his horses had alot of breaks in their PP's. He didn't run tired horses or horses with an ailment.

There was one trainer in NY years back who was known to keep horses running with no rests at all. People wondered his magic. His magic was standing his horses in ice buckets 30 or more min before a race and then putting on iced down front wraps in the paddock. Those horses futures weren't bright.

Again, I was not the one who made the post. I will simply comment what I comment in all these situations, both in racing, finance and life in general. Sometimes when you are aggressive and stick your neck out and push the envelope, you are hailed as brilliant and perhaps a hero because you were successful. However, if you fail, because you did not follow the conventional route you may well wind up the asshole in a particular situation, even if that was not your intent. Thats the cruel way life works.

[tzipi]

Again, I was not the one who made the post. I will simply comment what I comment in all these situations, both in racing, finance and life in general. Sometimes when you are aggressive and stick your neck out and push the envelope, you are hailed as brilliant and perhaps a hero because you were successful. However, if you fail, because you did not follow the conventional route you may well wind up the asshole in a particular situation, even if that was not your intent. Thats the cruel way life works.

No I agree,you are def on the money there :ThmbUp: . I know you didn't make the post was just shocked someone thought he was a bad or maybe average trainer. The guy was one of the great horsemen in racing I think.

[Robert Fischer]

You seem to just gloss over this VERY important little set of words in your initial post.

I think most people would agree that prior to the BC, Zenyatta had beaten little in her four trips to the plate in 2009.

So why would his words shock you, given the fact that they were made pre-BC?

Good Catch, i hadn't noticed that in reading the OP

[tzipi]

You seem to just gloss over this VERY important little set of words in your initial post.

I think most people would agree that prior to the BC, Zenyatta had beaten little in her four trips to the plate in 2009.

So why would his words shock you, given the fact that they were made pre-BC?

Man,I feel like I have to answer to you about everyother post :D

I was shocked Pace because he was saying overrated so much when talking about Zenyatta. He trained her mother and he's saying,"She's the most overrated THING" What's that mean? The most overrated THING in racing,in sports? Seems very harsh from him. I was also shocked at that statement,especially since he's connected to her in a way. I don't care what people thought of her before BC,I know what they thought. I was shocked as HIS take on her for reasons I just mentioned. Is it ok that I have an opinion about his comments on Zenyatta?

You really think his comments have changed big time POST BC because of her win over that field?

[PaceAdvantage]

Man,I feel like I have to answer to you about every post I make. I don't get it:D

I was shocked PACE because he was saying overrated so much when talking about Zenyatta. He trained her mother and he's saying,"She's the most overrated THING" What's that mean? The most overrated thing in racing,in sports? Seems very harsh from him. I was also shocked at that statement,especially since he's connected to her in a way. I don't care what people thought of her before BC,i know what they thought. I was shocked as HIS take on her for reasons I just mentioned. Is it ok Pace,that I have an opinion about his comments on Zenyatta?Is it ok that I comment on my own message board? Yeah, I think it is...thank you.

Now, back to the issue at hand (and why you are taking the fact that I reply to your threads personally is beyond me).

So he trained her mother...big deal...doesn't change the fact that Zenyatta's camp took the easy way out at every opportunity in 2009 (minus the BC Classic). That's what Dickinson was commenting on...you said so yourself...you said these comments were made before the BC Classic.

Nothing about this should be shocking.

[tzipi]

Is it ok that I comment on my own message board? Yeah, I think it is...thank you.

Now, back to the issue at hand (and why you are taking the fact that I reply to your threads personally is beyond me).

So he trained her mother...big deal...doesn't change the fact that Zenyatta's camp took the easy way out at every opportunity in 2009 (minus the BC Classic). That's what Dickinson was commenting on...you said so yourself...you said these comments were made before the BC Classic.

Nothing about this should be shocking.
Yeah couple posts you were all over me the past month,but whatever,I was laughing,not mad.

Anyway Pace,it's when you start pointing out why I'd be so shocked. Should I check with you after every article I read to see if my feelings about it are ok?
I never said she didn't have an easy campaign! I never said Zenyatta was the greatest. I WAS shocked at his harsh comments about the horse. Again really don't think his opinion changed much after that BC win over that field IMO. You think he was blown away? If Yes you do,ok.

"Big deal he trained her mother" Sorry Pace,again I know you have worked in every part of the buisness and know alot I guess. Just in my small journeys in the buisness,I have noticed listening to trainers,that alot do follow and care about good horses that came from their big horses they trained but mostly when it's a mare because they only produce a few foals that run.

Again,I was shocked at his "Most overrated thing" comment. Sorry I had that feeling when reading it. I'vealso met Dickinson and it doesn't seem like something he'd say,which added to it. Ok,end of story.

[magwell]

Yes Dickinson is a great race horse trainer nobody can deny that, but I think he was way out of line with the "overrated" statement. I doubt he would stand by that now since she won the big one against the men.

[tzipi]

Yes Dickinson is a greatrace horse trainer nobody can deny that, but I think he was way out of line with the "overrated" statement. I doubt he would stand by that now since she won the big one against the men.

That's just what I meant. Reading it I was a bit shocked and also had that same thought of it being out of line,especially because it's him. Not sure how he felt about BC win or about field(Not greatest BC field IMO),but in all honesty it couldn't have hurt his opinion of her. It was against a totally different field and honestly a better field than she was beating up on before.

[DanG]

It’s fascinating that when Dickinson says something that supports someone’s argument his integrity is never questioned. When he promoted his ‘Tapeta’ surface the infamous “conflict of interest” phrase was used and far worse.

Ironically; it turns out his Tapeta surface is performing tremendously and his opinion on the mare is off base imo.

[andymays]

It’s fascinating that when Dickinson says something that supports someone’s argument his integrity is never questioned. When he promoted his ‘Tapeta’ surface the infamous “conflict of interest” phrase was used and far worse.

Ironically; it turns out his Tapeta surface is performing tremendously and his opinion on the mare is off base imo.


Happy New Year Dan. :ThmbUp:

As I've said before I'd give it to Rachel by a neck but I would have liked to see them share the award. Calling Zenyatta overrated is off base at first glance but when you look at the public opinion polls maybe not. In my opinion any poll that is more than 5 points off is overrating one and underrating the other.
------------------------------------------------------
This comment from John Pricci: http://www.horseraceinsider.com/

"But the margin of 56% to 30% (14% voting for a co-championship) is, given any objective standard, well, laughable".
------------------------------------------
There is no question that the "surface thing", the "owner thing", and the "trainer thing" have played a role in shaping opinions on who they like best. Particularly the "surface thing".

And getting back to the "surface thing" the Triple Crown races and the Breeders' Cup are lessened in my opinion because of synthetic surfaces. This year the "surface thing" ruined HOY. In my opinion Zenyatta and Rachel would have faced each other at least once had these surfaces stayed at minor league tracks like Golden Gate and Presque Isle where they always belonged. But that's just me along with a majority of Horseplayers talking. ;)

[DanG]

As I've said before I'd give it to Rachel by a neck but I would have liked to see them share the award. Calling Zenyatta overrated is off base at first glance but when you look at the public opinion polls maybe not. In my opinion any poll that is more than 5 points off is overrating one and underrating the other.
I would give it to Rachel as well, and by a wider margin then most. That is no knock on Z of course; but the filly was just that exceptional imo.

As far as ‘public opinion pools go…I’m the wrong one to comment; I’ll never equate consumption with validation concerning almost anything. I don’t purchase the #1 selling music, wine, hamburger or purchase socks by the gross at Wall Mart.

There is no question that the "surface thing", the "owner thing", and the "trainer thing" have played a role in shaping opinions on who they like best. Particularly the "surface thing".
No doubt; but don’t underestimate the ‘regional thing. Read some of the Rachel comments pre-Mother Goose when she torched 2 opponents. “Dubious” was thrown around like a NY subway token.

And getting back to the "surface thing" the Triple Crown races and the Breeders' Cup are lessened in my opinion because of synthetic surfaces. This year the "surface thing" ruined HOY. In my opinion Zenyatta and Rachel would have faced each other at least once had these surfaces stayed at minor league tracks like Golden Gate and Presque Isle where they always belonged. But that's just me along with a majority of Horseplayers talking.
I never knew that was your stance on surface Andy. :D Just kidding; again; I don’t subscribe to anything just because the majority gathers. Enjoy your New Year! :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

I would give it to Rachel as well, and by a wider margin then most. That is no knock on Z of course; but the filly was just that exceptional imo.

As far as ‘public opinion pools go…I’m the wrong one to comment; I’ll never equate consumption with validation concerning almost anything. I don’t purchase the #1 selling music, wine, hamburger or purchase socks by the gross at Wall Mart.


No doubt; but don’t underestimate the ‘regional thing. Read some of the Rachel comments pre-Mother Goose when she torched 2 opponents. “Dubious” was thrown around like a NY subway token.

I never knew that was your stance on surface Andy. :D Just kidding; again; I don’t subscribe to anything just because the majority gathers. Enjoy your New Year! :ThmbUp:

I think the "regional thing" was exacerbated by the Zenyatta tribute at Hollywood Park (Santa Anita was fine). Regional biases have always been there but the over the top nature of the tribute prompted some sharp off the record responses from some voters (I received a couple of emails about this and the comments were ones the voters would not say in public).

[DanG]

I think the "regional thing" was exacerbated by the Zenyatta tribute at Hollywood Park (Santa Anita was fine). Regional biases have always been there but the over the top nature of the tribute prompted some sharp off the record responses from some voters (I received a couple of emails about this and the comments were ones the voters would not say in public).
I respectfully disagree Andy; regional biases were around long before we were born. They always will be and that’s not a bad thing either. From a gambling perspective its gold in an age when shippers and simulcasting are the norm.

I’ve lived in four different states; (NJ, Fla, Nevada and briefly in So Cal) and regional alliances exist in each and in most cases...even within the same state.

[Fingal]

Dickinson is just upset that Zenyatta didn't do her winning on Tapeta. Otherwise he'd be praising her & saying it was the surface that enabled her to achieve greatness.:rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Anyway Pace,it's when you start pointing out why I'd be so shocked. Should I check with you after every article I read to see if my feelings about it are ok?I have no idea what you are trying to say here or what your agenda is...I'm baffled by your responses.I never said she didn't have an easy campaign! I never said Zenyatta was the greatest.I never claimed you said she didn't have an easy campaign and I never claimed you said Zenyatta was the greatest...again, I'm baffled.I WAS shocked at his harsh comments about the horse.And again, I can't understand why...because he trained Zenyatta's dam? What does that really have to do with Zenyatta facing little in the way of quality horses in her four appearances prior to the BC?Again really don't think his opinion changed much after that BC win over that field IMO. You think he was blown away? If Yes you do,ok.I have no idea...you haven't posted any quotes from Dickinson after Zenyatta ran in the BC...so how would I know?"Big deal he trained her mother" Sorry Pace,again I know you have worked in every part of the buisness and know alot I guess.Why would you say such a thing? Where I have ever claimed publicly to work in ANY part of the business? Once again, color me baffled.Again,I was shocked at his "Most overrated thing" comment. Sorry I had that feeling when reading it.Nobody should ever apologize for their beliefs or feelings. Not sure why you are...but when you post your feelings or beliefs for public consumption, please don't be surprised or upset when someone responds.

[tzipi]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here or what your agenda is...I'm baffled by your responses.I never claimed you said she didn't have an easy campaign and I never claimed you said Zenyatta was the greatest...again, I'm baffled.And again, I can't understand why...because he trained Zenyatta's dam? What does that really have to do with Zenyatta facing little in the way of quality horses in her four appearances prior to the BC?I have no idea...you haven't posted any quotes from Dickinson after Zenyatta ran in the BC...so how would I know?Why would you say such a thing? Where I have ever claimed publicly to work in ANY part of the business? Once again, color me baffled.Nobody should ever apologize for their beliefs or feelings. Not sure why you are...but when you post your feelings or beliefs for public consumption, please don't be surprised or upset when someone responds.

Oh my God Pace,much respect and you got one hell of a site,but let it go! :D I was just shocked by the harsh words or kind of the tone he portrayed. I'm baffled with the feedback because it was just a simple post about his harshness. Not Zenyatta,not the races,not anything but his words he used about her. That's all! You also said "big deal he trained the mother" as if you know that it doesn't matter to him or why would it matter to him. Well from my experience it does to alot trainers,is all I said. I posted the BC comment so people would know this was said before the BC and not after by Dickinson. Geez.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh my God Pace,much respect and you got one hell of a site,but let it go! :D I was just shocked by the harsh words or kind of the tone he portrayed. I'm baffled with the feedback because it was just a simple post about his harshness.All I'm trying to do is explain to you why he was harsh with his words. What's wrong with that?

If you don't want any feedback in the future, simply mark your threads "PLEASE DON'T RESPOND."

Geeez.

[Dahoss9698]

Oh my God Pace,much respect and you got one hell of a site,but let it go! :D I was just shocked by the harsh words or kind of the tone he portrayed. I'm baffled with the feedback because it was just a simple post about his harshness. Not Zenyatta,not the races,not anything but his words he used about her. That's all! You also said "big deal he trained the mother" as if you know that it doesn't matter to him or why would it matter to him. Well from my experience it does to alot trainers,is all I said. I posted the BC comment so people would know this was said before the BC and not after by Dickinson. Geez.

Even though Dickinson trained Zenyatta's dam, what does that have to do with his feelings (pre BC) on her and who she has faced? Should he lie because he has some far off connection to her? Is he supposed to think every son and daughter of every sire and dam he has ever trained is a great horse?

[tzipi]

All I'm trying to do is explain to you why he was harsh with his words. What's wrong with that?

If you don't want any feedback in the future, simply mark your threads "PLEASE DON'T RESPOND."

Geeez.

Ok you were explaining to me why Dickinson used those words. Ok you know why he used those words. ok I agree with him that she is and was hyped a bit. I just taken back by his constant ripping of her and by saying "thing" Was just my opinion. You agreed with his harshness,ok cool. I thought he could've chose different words than "she's the most overrated thing".

Just seems like he's mad at her and against her. Why? Number one, he trained her mother. Cool connection. Number two, he's for synthetics. Number three, Zenyatta was far from the most overrated thing in racing this year. Don't get his anger. Anyway,ok call me crazy,just my thoughts :)

[tzipi]

Even though Dickinson trained Zenyatta's dam, what does that have to do with his feelings (pre BC) on her and who she has faced? Should he lie because he has some far off connection to her? Is he supposed to think every son and daughter of every sire and dam he has ever trained is a great horse?

No Dahoss. As I already wrote,sires are a different because they produce tons of horses it's tough to even follow but I do know some trainers follow some progeny from big mares they have trained. I mean,if the horse is a good horse. I will stand by that because I have worked for numerous trainers and have asked that because I was curious. I follow progeny of favorite great mares I have followed and loved.

[Dahoss9698]

No Dahoss. As I already wrote,sires are a different because they produce tons of horses it's tough to even follow but I do know some trainers follow some progeny from big mares they have trained. I mean,if the horse is a good horse. I will stand by that because I have worked for numerous trainers and have asked that because I was curious. I follow progeny of favorite great mares I have followed and loved.

Was Vertigineux a good horse on the track? I know she has had success in the shed, but I didn't think she did much on track.

Just doesn't seem all that shocking to me.

[WinterTriangle]

The local papers here gave 4 full COLOR pages to the Arkansas Derby.......Papa Clem's photo took up an entire page. Bigger than life! Then they had a complete breakdown, history, and everything you could possibly ask, concerning the race. :jump:

How many regional horse races and horses are promoted that way in YOUR neck of the woods? :)

To me, this can only help horse racing, bring in more fans, and get people to the track.

So, for the "over the top" celebration of Zenyatta, people in Arkansas went crazy for Smarty Jones. I guess my question is why didn't the racing establishment in the east give Rachel a ticker tape parade and everything she deserved for her feats? Didn't want to spend the money, or couldn't organize it, or what?

I see no problem giving as much attention to a horse, any horse that has brought a LOT of people a LOT of joy. Whether it be Rachel, Zenyatta, or any other equine. Why does it have to come down to "who did he/she beat"?

If that were the biggest measure of a racehorse then we wouldn't have much left to celebrate.:rolleyes: Maybe that is precisely why horse racing is dying. Perhaps there's no longer enough people into just enjoying HORSE RACING and the horses doing it, and are willing to show up and support the horses at the track.....

So, good for EVERY person who showed up in person for Zenyatta's parade. Good for EVERY person that went to see her race. Good for EVERY person who made a sign, and held it up. Good for every person who brought their young daughters to the track.

They didn't stay home complaining behind their computers. ;)


As for this trainer's opinion, his expertise seems to be racing in Europe, and if in any other situation a foreigner insulted one of our horses you guys would be up in arms! But since it suits some of your argument, you're okay with it.

Further, how many trainers WOULD come out publically and diss a horse? Let's find an US racing expert to dump on some of the horses he trained. I really can't imagine Sheriffs doing that, or any of the horsemen that I consider have some "class".

[Stillriledup]

Dickinson is just upset that Zenyatta didn't do her winning on Tapeta. Otherwise he'd be praising her & saying it was the surface that enabled her to achieve greatness.:rolleyes:

This is a great point. No way he would call her out if she was a 'tapeta superstar'.

[Dahoss9698]

Rachel Alexandra ran in Arkansas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Maryland, New York and New Jersey this year. Where would they have held the ticker tape parade?

In New York they have had sendoffs for horses like California had for Zenyatta. Not to the extent California did, but I was at similar sendoffs for Fourstardave, Commentator and a few others I'm forgetting.

[tzipi]

Was Vertigineux a good horse on the track? I know she has had success in the shed, but I didn't think she did much on track.

Just doesn't seem all that shocking to me.

Not much on the track. Maybe she got hurt or they wanted her for breeding. Vertigineux ran 7 times for 2 wins but shes the dam on Balance who racked up tons of stakes wins,Where's Bailey(stakes winner) and Zenyatta(we know her record ;) ). She's one hell of a dam!

Vertigineux has two horses coming out. One by Giants Causeway and another by Bernadini. Can't wait,because all of her kids are definately talented and big time runners!

[tzipi]

Also she's in foal to Henrythenavigator now.

[Zman179]

She is a far better horse than he was a racehorse trainer.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

You do realize that the date you wrote this was January 1st and not April 1st?

[joanied]

The local papers here gave 4 full COLOR pages to the Arkansas Derby.......Papa Clem's photo took up an entire page. Bigger than life! Then they had a complete breakdown, history, and everything you could possibly ask, concerning the race. :jump:

How many regional horse races and horses are promoted that way in YOUR neck of the woods? :)

To me, this can only help horse racing, bring in more fans, and get people to the track.

So, for the "over the top" celebration of Zenyatta, people in Arkansas went crazy for Smarty Jones. I guess my question is why didn't the racing establishment in the east give Rachel a ticker tape parade and everything she deserved for her feats? Didn't want to spend the money, or couldn't organize it, or what?

I see no problem giving as much attention to a horse, any horse that has brought a LOT of people a LOT of joy. Whether it be Rachel, Zenyatta, or any other equine. Why does it have to come down to "who did he/she beat"?

If that were the biggest measure of a racehorse then we wouldn't have much left to celebrate.:rolleyes: Maybe that is precisely why horse racing is dying. Perhaps there's no longer enough people into just enjoying HORSE RACING and the horses doing it, and are willing to show up and support the horses at the track.....

So, good for EVERY person who showed up in person for Zenyatta's parade. Good for EVERY person that went to see her race. Good for EVERY person who made a sign, and held it up. Good for every person who brought their young daughters to the track.

They didn't stay home complaining behind their computers. ;)


As for this trainer's opinion, his expertise seems to be racing in Europe, and if in any other situation a foreigner insulted one of our horses you guys would be up in arms! But since it suits some of your argument, you're okay with it.

Further, how many trainers WOULD come out publically and diss a horse? Let's find an US racing expert to dump on some of the horses he trained. I really can't imagine Sheriffs doing that, or any of the horsemen that I consider have some "class".

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Winter T...you saved me a lot of typing...well said. The only thing I'll add is that they should have given Rachel some kind of a special day...someone mentioned she ran at so many tracks, where would you do this...which is a dilema...but, I think Belmont could have pulled it off...or, it could have been done right after she won the Woodward...or maybe they just decided since she'll be racing this year, it could wait until she does retire...
at any rate, I do hope that the fans come out and the signs come out again this year...for every race Rachel runs in!!

Best of luck in 2010 Rachel:jump:

[Steve R]

[snip]...As for this trainer's opinion, his expertise seems to be racing in Europe, and if in any other situation a foreigner insulted one of our horses you guys would be up in arms! But since it suits some of your argument, you're okay with it.

Further, how many trainers WOULD come out publically and diss a horse? Let's find an US racing expert to dump on some of the horses he trained. I really can't imagine Sheriffs doing that, or any of the horsemen that I consider have some "class".
Concerning Dickinson's expertise, he has lived and trained in the US for about 25 years now and his experience in Europe was with National Hunt horses, not flat racers. IOW, his expertise today actually is American flat racing. Also, I believe after living and working in the US for so long he hardly qualifies as a foreigner insulting one of our horses. He may not be the most tactful or politically correct person on the planet, but he is honest to the point where he will tell owners directly that their horse isn't much good. I'm sure there are plenty of trainers out there that you might think of as having "class" who'd rather have the training fees and are more than happy to string the owners along. Also, as a private citizen, he has the right, just as you and I, to express his opinion about any horse owned by any person and trained by anyone. Considering his skills and abilities, I think his opinions about horses holds a lot more weight than those of 90% of the posters on this forum.

[Dahoss9698]

Concerning Dickinson's expertise, he has lived and trained in the US for about 25 years now and his experience in Europe was with National Hunt horses, not flat racers. IOW, his expertise today actually is American flat racing. Also, I believe after living and working in the US for so long he hardly qualifies as a foreigner insulting one of our horses. He may not be the most tactful or politically correct person on the planet, but he is honest to the point where he will tell owners directly that their horse isn't much good. I'm sure there are plenty of trainers out there that you might think of as having "class" who'd rather have the training fees and are more than happy to string the owners along. Also, as a private citizen, he has the right, just as you and I, to express his opinion about any horse owned by any person and trained by anyone. Considering his skills and abilities, I think his opinions about horses holds a lot more weight than those of 90% of the posters on this forum.

Well said, especially your last sentence.

[nearco]

Concerning Dickinson's expertise, he has lived and trained in the US for about 25 years now and his experience in Europe was with National Hunt horses, not flat racers. IOW, his expertise today actually is American flat racing.

In the interest of fairness, MD did have experience with flat racers in England. In the mid 80's, by which time he had totally dominated NH racing, he was hand picked by Robert Sangster to be his personal trainer. He was set up in a state of the art (for the time) facility in Manton, and given the best of the best horseflesh. Sangster fired Dickinson after the first season when he only managed 4 winners.

[saratoga guy]

Oh my God Pace,much respect and you got one hell of a site,but let it go!

I completely agree with PA.

To post that quote on Jan 1 -- two months after it was said (which was before the BC) -- without any link to the original source, was completely disingenuous.

[tzipi]

I completely agree with PA.

To post that quote on Jan 1 -- two months after it was said (which was before the BC) -- without any link to the original source, was completely disingenuous.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/horse_racing/20091104_Zenyatta_will_try_to_beat_the_boys_in_Bre eder__Cup_Classic.html

There you go Saratoga Guy. "Two months after it was said" I just saw the article couple days ago. How was I suppose to post it before the BC?! Unbelievable :rolleyes: .
"(these were before the BC)" I said in the post the quotes were before BC,so what's your point? Did actually you read the post? "Without a link to source" Uhhh try going to Google and putting in "Michael Dickinson Zenyatta most overrrated thing" or any other quote. Comes right up. Pretty easy to do. I see people all the time quoting people in their posts without sources and they don't get blasted.

Again,not a big Zenyatta fan and I agree not the hardest campaign but was shocked by his anger,not his opinion,thats all. Also him saying she was the most overrated thing in racing? Cmon no she wasn't. Not before BC and not after. I can think of a few who were way more overatted :D

[the little guy]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/horse_racing/20091104_Zenyatta_will_try_to_beat_the_boys_in_Bre eder__Cup_Classic.html

There you go Saratoga Guy. "Two months after it was said" I just saw the article couple days ago. How was I suppose to post it before the BC?! Unbelievable :rolleyes: .



Maybe because the headline is " Zenyatta will try to beat the boys in the BC " or that it was dated November 4th.

Other than that, I think the emoticon was extremely well used.

[magwell]

Yes he said it before the BC and I'm sure he wished NOW that he didn't say anything ....case closed

[andymays]

Yes he said it before the BC and I'm sure he wished NOW that he didn't say anything ....case closed


Mostly everyone I know thought she was overrated prior to the Breeders' Cup based on her competition and winning margins. Most experienced handicappers thought whe was a bad bet at 5-2. She did step up her game in the Classic.

As I said in an earlier post if you go by the public opinion polls Zenyatta is overrated. There is no way there should be more than a 5 point spread in any objective poll in my opinion.

[46zilzal]

Trainer over the jumps doesn't translate well to the flats...Even Sheppard did not fare all that well.

DEEP closers ONLY run as much as they have to and to try and beat these types the others TRY if they can, to slow it down in front of them so the pacesetters might have something left.

Zenyatta blew by fields after SLOW opening halves and fast opening halves and beat the best the world could throw at her on the big day and walked away the victor,.

She showed UP to get the chance to be great and showed just what an animal she is.

[tzipi]

Maybe because the headline is " Zenyatta will try to beat the boys in the BC " or that it was dated November 4th.

Other than that, I think the emoticon was extremely well used.

Well again,couldn't post it because I never saw article it till couple days ago. Anyway who cares anymore. OK again,I'm NOT the biggest fan of Zenyatta and you can check my posts but you guys really think she was that overrated before BC? I mean yeah she pretty much beat the same competition but they were decent races and certainly not the worst horses around and the Oaklawn race was great I think. I also think RA had it harder. Anyway,I think she was hyped a bit but far from the most overrated thing in racing. But RA for HOY for me :)

[11cashcall]

14 days to go...............

[saratoga guy]

There you go Saratoga Guy. "Two months after it was said" I just saw the article couple days ago. How was I suppose to post it before the BC?! Unbelievable

You didn't have to post it before the BC -- just, when you did post it, make it clear that it was a two-month old, pre-BC quote.

"(these were before the BC)" I said in the post the quotes were before BC,so what's your point?

Shocking considering he trained her mother. This was before the BC run but I never thought much of that field(IMO) but still...

Grammatically, as you used it, "This was before the BC," means "he trained her mother" "before the BC run."

Typically when a quote like this is posted it's something timely. The implication for readers is that it's relatively "fresh".

Context is important and the timing of this quote adds context to it. So, to be fair to the conversation, the "staleness" of this particular quote should have been explicitly stated.

For example, prior to the Travers there was some debate about how good (or bad) Summer Bird's first work over the track was.

What if I had posted this thread just prior to the Travers?

Title: Churchill Downs blogger comments on Summer Bird
Thread content: A blogger on the Churchill Downs website said this about Summer Bird, "Word is he has not looked good on track."

That's it. Title and comment. It sure seems like yet another person found fault with the Summer Bird's pre-Travers work... Except the quote is from April and was written before the Derby.

Out of context it has a different meaning - and the timing of this quote adds context to it.

Same with the Dickinson quote.

There's nothing wrong with discussing it -- if you still think it has relevance -- but give the readers the proper context (or a link back to the source).

[tzipi]

You didn't have to post it before the BC -- just, when you did post it, make it clear that it was a two-month old, pre-BC quote.





Grammatically, as you used it, "This was before the BC," means "he trained her mother" "before the BC run."

Typically when a quote like this is posted it's something timely. The implication for readers is that it's relatively "fresh".

Context is important and the timing of this quote adds context to it. So, to be fair to the conversation, the "staleness" of this particular quote should have been explicitly stated.

For example, prior to the Travers there was some debate about how good (or bad) Summer Bird's first work over the track was.

What if I had posted this thread just prior to the Travers?

Title: Churchill Downs blogger comments on Summer Bird
Thread content: A blogger on the Churchill Downs website said this about Summer Bird, "Word is he has not looked good on track."

That's it. Title and comment. It sure seems like yet another person found fault with the Summer Bird's pre-Travers work... Except the quote is from April and was written before the Derby.

Out of context it has a different meaning - and the timing of this quote adds context to it.

Same with the Dickinson quote.

There's nothing wrong with discussing it -- if you still think it has relevance -- but give the readers the proper context (or a link back to the source).

I wrote "this was before the BC run but I never thought much of that field anyway" Obviously pertains to his quotes I thought. Whats the BC field have to do with her mother?? :D Geez,get over it.

[saratoga guy]

I wrote "this was before the BC run but I never thought much of that field anyway" Obviously pertains to his quotes I thought. Whats the BC field have to do with her mother?? :D Geez,get over it.

Get over what? When people say that I don't even know what it means -- we're having a discussion. If you don't like the discussion -- don't respond.

As far as being obvious -- for better or worse, racing forums are not populated by Pulitzer prize authors, hence, often times things don't make sense.

So when you wrote, "Shocking considering he trained her mother. This was before the BC run but I never thought much of that field(IMO) but still...", it didn't make sense. Essentially then I skipped over it. If "this" didn't pertain to the mother, then it could pertain to many things.

Again, typically quotes like this that are the subject of threads are assumed to be timely. So for "this" to mean "the quote itself" I would have had to make an assumption to supercede that original assumption, which wouldn't make much sense either.

Easiest thing -- when referring to a two-month old quote -- make it clear up front that that's the context.

[tzipi]

Oh my God :lol:

Also check last post on 1st page. Seems like it was understood.

[tzipi]

With PA I was just argueing that I never said I was shocked at his Dickinsons opinion on her,she was a little hyped this year,but I was shocked at his harshness. She was not the most "overrated thing" in racing before the BC. There was plenty of more horses or trainers for that honor :lol: . It seemed a bit over the top and mean for him IMO. Dickinson seems pissed in the article and I do not know why IMMMOOOO :D .

[Cardus]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/horse_racing/20091104_Zenyatta_will_try_to_beat_the_boys_in_Bre eder__Cup_Classic.html

There you go Saratoga Guy. "Two months after it was said" I just saw the article couple days ago. How was I suppose to post it before the BC?! Unbelievable :rolleyes: .
"(these were before the BC)" I said in the post the quotes were before BC,so what's your point? Did actually you read the post? "Without a link to source" Uhhh try going to Google and putting in "Michael Dickinson Zenyatta most overrrated thing" or any other quote. Comes right up. Pretty easy to do. I see people all the time quoting people in their posts without sources and they don't get blasted.

Again,not a big Zenyatta fan and I agree not the hardest campaign but was shocked by his anger,not his opinion,thats all. Also him saying she was the most overrated thing in racing? Cmon no she wasn't. Not before BC and not after. I can think of a few who were way more overatted :D

How did you unearth Dickinson's "anger" from what all of us read in this link?

I am more anxious to see your reply to this than to anything I've posted in internet land.

[tzipi]

How did you unearth Dickinson's "anger" from what all of us read in this link?

I am more anxious to see your reply to this than to anything I've posted in internet land.

"more anxious to see your reply to this than anything I've ever posted on the internet" Over my choice of the word "anger"? :D How sad! Over me? Over this? Woooo I'm so important. No I was just joking he seemed happy in the article talking about Zenyatta.

"She's beaten up on nothing"
"Tell me a good horse she's beat"
"Rachel would destroy her" Really,Destroy?
"Again what has she beaten this year. Life and death to beat horses you and I can't name"
"She is the most overrated thing"

:lol: Yeah he seems thrilled and happy. He just keeps repeating it,saying who has she beaten three times! Also especially since it's him because I've met him and it doesn't seem like things he'd say about a horse MO. Rachel would destroy Zenyatta? Sorry I'm a big RA fan but if their in a race together,Zenyatta closing into what would prob be a good pace. No I would never think RA beats Zenyatta by 10+ lengths. Wins yeah,but destroy Zenyatta? Cmon.

[Cardus]

He went from angry to happy.

Interesting.

I'm never anxious for a reply.

[tzipi]

He went from angry to happy.

Interesting.

I'm never anxious for a reply.

I am more anxious to see your reply to this than to anything I've posted in internet land. :lol: :lol: So smart.

"He went from angry to happy" That was a joke because of his statments. Get it? Wow this post above was too funny. Nothing about his much repeated trashing statements about Zenyatta. Just.. ah whatever. Had a great laugh for the night. ;)

[Cardus]

It's impossible to read "anger" into what he said.

Sharp criticism, yes, but reading "anger" into what he said crosses into psycho-babble.

Last word is all yours.

[tzipi]

It's impossible to read "anger" into what he said.

Sharp criticism, yes, but reading "anger" into what he said crosses into psycho-babble.

Last word is all yours.

OK last word. I know debates get crazy on the forum but nothing meanspirited was felt or meant as always I think with most people on PA. Just fun debate jabs. Anyway,yeah I just took his constant jabs at her,repeating teh same statement over and over again as a bit of anger. Just my opinion. OK well it's beaten to death. Have a great and safe night :)