It's Starting Already

[Pell Mell]

Dec. 31 (Bloomberg) -- The Mayo Clinic (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aboutthissite/aboutmayoclinic), praised by President Barack Obama (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Barack+Obama&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) as a national model for efficient health care, will stop accepting Medicare patients as of tomorrow at one of its primary-care clinics in Arizona, saying the U.S. government pays too little.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHoYSI84VdL0

I guess we better start to learn all the home remedies we can. :(

[ElKabong]

I guess the CBO had this fact/ action figured into its calculations, eh?

We better get used to it. Just remember to vote in 2010 and 2012.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I guess the CBO had this fact/ action figured into its calculations, eh?

We better get used to it. Just remember to vote in 2010 and 2012.

I assume you support eliminating Medicare? It's the largest govt-run healthcare program (excluding Medicaid, which is administered by the states of course).

[ElKabong]

I support the existing health care "status" over anything the house or senate is pushing on us currently.

From what I can tell, their "bills" are pretty much an expansion of what's already there, adding 30 million people or so to the rolls without a way to ramp up staffing levels to meet the needs of those additional 30 million. What the OP put up pretty much tells me we're headed in a direction of a capacity problem. When that happens, services are cut.

I'm sure when the bill is finalized I'll have a stronger opinion, but none of us know right now exactly how it falls out (other than real concern of overextending the current "capacity").

Is that clear enough?

[ElKabong]

I assume you support eliminating Medicare? It's the largest govt-run healthcare program (excluding Medicaid, which is administered by the states of course).

Ah, one other thing...when I was in 4th-5th grade, LBJ pimped the great society. It was supposed to all but eliminate poverty and hunger in the USA by creating 'a more enlightened & productive society'. Today one of every 8 folks are on food stamps.

So excuse me if I'm leery of social engineers spreading their bullshit.

[exactaplayer]

Ah, one other thing...when I was in 4th-5th grade, LBJ pimped the great society. It was supposed to all but eliminate poverty and hunger in the USA by creating 'a more enlightened & productive society'. Today one of every 8 folks are on food stamps.

So excuse me if I'm leery of social engineers spreading their bullshit.
If you will take the time to analyze what has happened since you were in the 4th-5th grade, you will find that this country has moved to the right at a slow steady pace since then. This is in fact the reason one of every 8 folks are on food stamps. (Clinton was the best Republican the Democrats ever elected). And Obama still thinks he can create a bi-partisan coalition with the thugs in D.C. You see this country is still controlled by the corporate lobbyists. Not a good thing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Ah, one other thing...when I was in 4th-5th grade, LBJ pimped the great society. It was supposed to all but eliminate poverty and hunger in the USA by creating 'a more enlightened & productive society'. Today one of every 8 folks are on food stamps.

So excuse me if I'm leery of social engineers spreading their bullshit.

What was the poverty rate among those over 65 in 1960? Okay, what is it now?

[boxcar]

If you will take the time to analyze what has happened since you were in the 4th-5th grade, you will find that this country has moved to the right at a slow steady pace since then. This is in fact the reason one of every 8 folks are on food stamps. (Clinton was the best Republican the Democrats ever elected). And Obama still thinks he can create a bi-partisan coalition with the thugs in D.C. You see this country is still controlled by the corporate lobbyists. Not a good thing.

And we all know the BO administration isn't, right? :bang: :bang:

And another thing, sir: If you want to look at the most poverty-stricken and financially-strapped areas in our nation,the vast majority of them have been controlled by Democrats. I take it that these stellar inner-city models that the liberals have done such a superb job all these many years at extricating from the death clutches of poverty, misery. high unemployment, etc. are what BO has planned for the entire country? :rolleyes:

Boxcar
P.S. Happy New Year!

[Tom]

Liberalism breeds failure. Fact of life.
Where libs go, poverty and dependency follow. Those libs in charge design it that way. They need dependency to justify their positions.

Not that repubs are nay better, but repubs, being only concerned with their own rewards are content to let us fight for our own survival, which some do and other do not.

Our government is pre-occupied with perpetuating itself rather than serving us.
Time to end it. It does not represent us.

[witchdoctor]

I now work for a multispecialty practice in Tulsa. As a cardiologist, 60% of my practice is Medicare. However if I try to get the an Internist to take care of their diabetes or hypertension, not a single internist out of over 100 will take care of them. One of my partners could not even get his mother to be seen by the internist because she only had Medicare. This has been going on for the last several years.

[exactaplayer]

Boxcar and Tom,
Problem here is, you guys both take the corporate policy of blaming this on liberals. That of course is just what they want, a bickering amongst the working class of citizens. The real culprit here is the corporate lobbyists that have taken control of BOTH parties. Of course the liberal communities are showing the most suffering they would be the first to show the results of corporate greed.

[DRIVEWAY]

I now work for a multispecialty practice in Tulsa. As a cardiologist, 60% of my practice is Medicare. However if I try to get the an Internist to take care of their diabetes or hypertension, not a single internist out of over 100 will take care of them. One of my partners could not even get his mother to be seen by the internist because she only had Medicare. This has been going on for the last several years.

Let's talk turkey. What's the office visit charge? What does Medicare Plan:A/B
pay? What does Advantage plan or Medicare supplements kickin?

Sounds like a policy decision by the practice. Ultimately it's all about $$$.

[RaceBookJoe]

Dec. 31 (Bloomberg) -- The Mayo Clinic (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aboutthissite/aboutmayoclinic), praised by President Barack Obama (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Barack+Obama&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date<img src=) as a national model for efficient health care, will stop accepting Medicare patients as of tomorrow at one of its primary-care clinics in Arizona, saying the U.S. government pays too little.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHoYSI84VdL0

I guess we better start to learn all the home remedies we can. :(

Thats probably a smarter and safer way to go anyways. There are some really good books and products out there...if you want some info send a message or write back on the thread. rbj

[boxcar]

Boxcar and Tom,
Problem here is, you guys both take the corporate policy of blaming this on liberals. That of course is just what they want, a bickering amongst the working class of citizens. The real culprit here is the corporate lobbyists that have taken control of BOTH parties. Of course the liberal communities are showing the most suffering they would be the first to show the results of corporate greed.

How come the conservatives communities seem to fare a lot better than those liberal ones? Thank you for making my point! :rolleyes:

What you don't understand is that it's Liberals who always want to inject themselves into the private sector! They want to control, control, control, and then afterward regulate, regulate, regulate and then you guys get all bent out of shape when you find out that Democrats are actually much bigger prostitutes with corporations than are conservatives. The corporations that the libs are supposed to be controlling on behalf of the down-trodden, opportunity-challenged, poverty-stricken "little guy in order to curb their insatiable appetite for money are actually being paid by the corporations (in various ways) to screw us -- the "little guys"! You wouldn't recognize fascism if it bit you on the rear end! Fascism always, always, always works to our disadvantage. Only the corrupt politicians and the corporations win out. Something you'll never understand because you really believe in your heart of hearts that your brand of politician has your best interest at heart. He does not, sir!

Solution: Set up a wall of separation between Government and the Private Sector. Keep government out of the private sector as much as possible and, therefore, out of our personal lives. Right now,. there is no area of our personal life that government doesn't want to control. And this is what you champion, Mr. Chump!? :bang: You really relish being a slave to Nanny, don't you? Eating the crumbs from Nanny's table? Being told what you can buy and can't buy? How much energy you can consume and can't consume? What you can eat and can't eat, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Thats probably a smarter and safer way to go anyways. There are some really good books and products out there...if you want some info send a message or write back on the thread. rbj

The problem is that the government wants to control that, too! Case in point: The government suddenly (after all these many years of use) wants to ban the sale of colloidal silver because of "side effects". But this natural remedy has been used for centuries as a natural antibiotic and preservative and many, many people swear by it, including yours truly. So, what it may have side effects if not used properly? Virtually all prescription drugs today can have harmful side effects! But we don't see the FDA moving to ban all the drugs on the market that have these potential side effects, do we!? See, there's no money to be had with products that aren't under government control; therefore the government wants to ban what it can't control.

Boxcar
P.S. And I'm not going to debate this issue. I raise it merely as an example of what kind of control freaks we have in the U.S. government. I have used CS, my wife has -- we even give it at times to our pets -- but we use it judiciously -- with care, and we're all still alive and well.

[Tom]

Let's talk turkey. What's the office visit charge? What does Medicare Plan:A/B
pay? What does Advantage plan or Medicare supplements kickin?

Sounds like a policy decision by the practice. Ultimately it's all about $$$.

Do you work for free?
Of course it as about money - just as it is with you, me, and everyone else.

[exactaplayer]

How come the conservatives communities seem to fare a lot better than those liberal ones? Thank you for making my point! :rolleyes:

Boxcar
Way too many words here Boxcar.
I will just address the first question. Where I live there are three seperate communities within 35 miles of each other. Two are and always have been liberal the third is and always has been conservative. All three communities are experiencing the same woes. Cutting back on schools, police, firefighters and other former services provided by the local governments. All three are suffering because of the lack of funding. The liberal one I live in froze their property taxes in the 1970s and is actually in the worst shape of the three. I continually chide my Republican friends asking them why don't they move into my community with its lower tax rate. They ignore my question.
Could you give me an example of a conservative community that is faring better then a liberal community ?

[DRIVEWAY]

Do you work for free?
Of course it as about money - just as it is with you, me, and everyone else.

The question is HOW much money? What is the practice charging for a 12-20 min office visit and what is Medicare willing to pay?

Nobody is working for free. How much is fair is at question?

All I'm asking for are the facts.

Example: Office visit retail charge is $180. No Insurance or Government program will pay the $180. How much is Medicare willing to pay and How much do the Drs. want? This is the dispute.

[boxcar]

Way too many words here Boxcar.
I will just address the first question. Where I live there are three seperate communities within 35 miles of each other. Two are and always have been liberal the third is and always has been conservative. All three communities are experiencing the same woes. Cutting back on schools, police, firefighters and other former services provided by the local governments. All three are suffering because of the lack of funding. The liberal one I live in froze their property taxes in the 1970s and is actually in the worst shape of the three. I continually chide my Republican friends asking them why don't they move into my community with its lower tax rate. They ignore my question.
Could you give me an example of a conservative community that is faring better then a liberal community ?

Hold on, EP: You were the one who earlier said that the liberal communities are the ones hit the most and feel it the first. Your own admission tell us that, generally, conservative communities are not hit the worst or first. And now you want me to tell you which "conservative" communities in America aren't hurting? And then you cite a "conservative" example that contradicts your earlier statement about the state of liberal communities? :bang:

But since you asked, I can make some general but accurate observations about areas in my own state. Migration to The Gold Coast of Florida has slowed to a crawl. Hardly anyone wants to move to Dade and Broward Counties, especially -- two counties that are steeped in debt and poverty. Palm Beach County to the north is faring only slightly better.

My talented, intelligent, and industrious wife is a musician, among other things. And the volume of her work in this tri-county area this year has decreased substantially. And this stands in sharp contrast to northern Florida which is quite conservative. Her colleagues up there not only report no drop in work, but in many cases, increases in work! This is saying a lot, considering that the arts are the first to suffer during economic downturns. Patrons don't contribute as much, and some even stop giving altogether.

Northern Florida is also growing leaps and bounds. Hardly anyone wants to move, anymore, to the more subtropic climes of S.E. Florida that are aeras controlled by Democrats.

Boxcar

[Tom]

The question is HOW much money? What is the practice charging for a 12-20 min office visit and what is Medicare willing to pay?

Nobody is working for free. How much is fair is at question?

All I'm asking for are the facts.

Example: Office visit retail charge is $180. No Insurance or Government program will pay the $180. How much is Medicare willing to pay and How much do the Drs. want? This is the dispute.

How much did it cost the doctors to get where they are today? Medical school, residency, internship. His office, equipment, staff, medical records expenses, malpractice insurance......all that figures in. How much less would medicine cost if college - with out of wack tuition costs - where more reasonable? If frivolous lawsuits were outlawed? Medicine is a business. But then, ODrama thinks he knows all there is to know about running business, even though he has never done it.

You call it a dispute, but what are the facts, ie, the balance sheets?

[DRIVEWAY]

How much did it cost the doctors to get where they are today? Medical school, residency, internship. His office, equipment, staff, medical records expenses, malpractice insurance......all that figures in. How much less would medicine cost if college - with out of wack tuition costs - where more reasonable? If frivolous lawsuits were outlawed? Medicine is a business. But then, ODrama thinks he knows all there is to know about running business, even though he has never done it.

You call it a dispute, but what are the facts, ie, the balance sheets?

The majority of Specialists in the metro NYC area will not take HMO's anymore.
Has nothing to do with the government.

If the cost of malpractice insurance were to be reduced, there isn't a doctor alive that will reduce their rates.

Your right when you say "Medicine is a Business". However, there's no competition. The Doctors change/raise their billing rates as a group.

If there are an excess of Doctors in a given area, there's no competition or reduces rates. They all raise their rates so they can make as much as before.
Everyone else faces the realities of competition - downsizing, offshore job movement, lower prices. If "Medicine is a Business" then the realities of competition must be part of the equation.

Forget about Obama, Doctors have already stopped taking Medicare and HMO's for years now.

What are seniors supposed to do, if the majority of doctors will no longer take Medicare?

Somethings got to give.

[boxcar]

The majority of Specialists in the metro NYC area will not take HMO's anymore.
Has nothing to do with the government.

Exxxcuuuuse me for jumpin' in here, but it has everything to do with a government-run program. The problem here is not greedy doctors. It's a badly structured, ill-conceived social program. And since the government hasn't been able to get Medicare right after all these decades, why in the world would anyone in their right mind think that a new socialized scheme will work better?

Somethings got to give.

You're right. The government needs to get out of our lives and out of the private sector and quit trying to reinvent the wheel.

Boxcar

[DRIVEWAY]

Exxxcuuuuse me for jumpin' in here, but it has everything to do with a government-run program. The problem here is not greedy doctors. It's a badly structured, ill-conceived social program. And since the government hasn't been able to get Medicare right after all these decades, why in the world would anyone in their right mind think that a new socialized scheme will work better?



You're right. The government needs to get out of our lives and out of the private sector and quit trying to reinvent the wheel.

Boxcar

If the government got out of healthcare completely, then what would happen to all the Medicare participants? How much would the Doctors and Hospitals charge then?

My quess is the premium for a healthy 80 year old woman would be around $2000 a month. Ninety+ % could not afford that. They would have to rely on charity from people like yourself. Can they count on you?

[boxcar]

If the government got out of healthcare completely, then what would happen to all the Medicare participants? How much would the Doctors and Hospitals charge then?

My quess is the premium for a healthy 80 year old woman would be around $2000 a month. Ninety+ % could not afford that. They would have to rely on charity from people like yourself. Can they count on you?

Don't you realize that they're already counting on me and millions like me in the form of taxation and for an inefficient, inadequate, overpriced, fraud-ridden, mismanaged, government-run socialist system?

Boxcar

[DRIVEWAY]

Don't you realize that they're already counting on me and millions like me in the form of taxation and for an inefficient, inadequate, overpriced, fraud-ridden, mismanaged, government-run socialist system?

Boxcar

The Government should thank you. :lol:

[boxcar]

The Government should thank you. :lol:

Don't you know they're not in the Gratitude biz? They're strictly in the Scam and Thievery biz. At these, they excel!

Boxcar

[exactaplayer]

But since you asked, I can make some general but accurate observations about areas in my own state. Migration to The Gold Coast of Florida has slowed to a crawl. Hardly anyone wants to move to Dade and Broward Counties, especially -- two counties that are steeped in debt and poverty. Palm Beach County to the north is faring only slightly better.


Northern Florida is also growing leaps and bounds. Hardly anyone wants to move, anymore, to the more subtropic climes of S.E. Florida that are aeras controlled by Democrats.

Boxcar
SE Florida was a hotspot for the exuberant housing boom, folks were buying condos sight unseen and flipping them for a quick profit. When the bubble burst the area tanked. Nothing to do with politics.
If northern Florida is such a conservative haven why are you still in southern Florida paying them nasty taxes and all ?

[boxcar]

SE Florida was a hotspot for the exuberant housing boom, folks were buying condos sight unseen and flipping them for a quick profit. When the bubble burst the area tanked. Nothing to do with politics.
If northern Florida is such a conservative haven why are you still in southern Florida paying them nasty taxes and all ?

Because it suits my family's purposes at the present time. Any more of my business you want to stick your nose into? And besides, wiseguy, isn't our patriotism measured by how much taxes we pay -- per your buddy Biden?

And for your info, the Gold Coast of Florida started tanking way before the "bubble burst", thanks to Democrat leadership.

It's no coincidence that Democrat-controlled states, counties or municipalities fare a lot worse, generally, than their conservative counterparts. Look at New York City, Detroit, Chicago, LA, Frisco, Miami -- the list is endless. I wouldn't live in any of these places on your dime!

Boxcar

[exactaplayer]

It's no coincidence that Democrat-controlled states, counties or municipalities fare a lot worse, generally, than their conservative counterparts. Look at New York City, Detroit, Chicago, LA, Frisco, Miami -- the list is endless. I wouldn't live in any of these places on your dime!

Boxcar
With the corporate lobbyists running the country would you expect anything different ?

[hazzardm]

All three are suffering because of the lack of funding. The liberal one I live in froze their property taxes in the 1970s and is actually in the worst shape of the three. I continually chide my Republican friends asking them why don't they move into my community with its lower tax rate. They ignore my question.
Could you give me an example of a conservative community that is faring better then a liberal community ?

This may be the dumbest policy I have ever read regarding local goverment .

[exactaplayer]

This may be the dumbest policy I have ever read regarding local goverment .
I agree and this has been voted on 3 or 4 times since its inception. The few remaining conservatives continue to convince the voters that it is good policy. And the voters continue to complain about a lack of services yet refuse to pay for same. Go figure ?

[jonnielu]

If you will take the time to analyze what has happened since you were in the 4th-5th grade, you will find that this country has moved to the right at a slow steady pace since then. This is in fact the reason one of every 8 folks are on food stamps. (Clinton was the best Republican the Democrats ever elected). And Obama still thinks he can create a bi-partisan coalition with the thugs in D.C. You see this country is still controlled by the corporate lobbyists. Not a good thing.

Moved to the right...:lol: :lol: :lol:

jdl

[hazzardm]

I have a well-to-do uncle that vehemently hates paying taxes. The guy has lived in sh*t hole towns( with no state taxes) his entire life. Can't even give away his current home in Sparks NV.

[boxcar]

With the corporate lobbyists running the country would you expect anything different ?

And who is letting them run the country, EP? Who!?

Boxcar

[exactaplayer]

And who is letting them run the country, EP? Who!?

Boxcar
The United States Government has been doing this for the past 30-40 years.

[boxcar]

The United States Government has been doing this for the past 30-40 years.

Thank you. Once again, you make my point. This is precisely why the U.S. Government and the Private Sector need to get divorced. The unholy marriage needs to be broken up. A platonic relationship at a distance is fine, desirable and practical in some cases. But the marriage needs to be broken up. Far too much money and power is being exchanged between the two, so you know who suffers.

Boxcar

[exactaplayer]

Thank you. Once again, you make my point. This is precisely why the U.S. Government and the Private Sector need to get divorced. The unholy marriage needs to be broken up. A platonic relationship at a distance is fine, desirable and practical in some cases. But the marriage needs to be broken up. Far too much money and power is being exchanged between the two, so you know who suffers.

Boxcar
Thank you for finally agreeing with what I have been posting for years. The corporate lobbyists have control of our government. We must do what we can to regain control of our government. A government of, for and by the people.

[boxcar]

Thank you for finally agreeing with what I have been posting for years. The corporate lobbyists have control of our government. We must do what we can to regain control of our government. A government of, for and by the people.

You're not going to get it with the Dems, my friend. Never happen. The vast majority of politicians are in it for themselves. The name of their game is to perpetuate their power. They do this by playing both sides -- the people and the corporations. But the money that comes from the people can't hold a candle to the corporations'. So, guess who loses?

Boxcar

[acorn54]

i say it's all pap and a yard wide. does anyone have a hole i can get sick in?

[exactaplayer]

You're not going to get it with the Dems, my friend. Never happen. The vast majority of politicians are in it for themselves. The name of their game is to perpetuate their power. They do this by playing both sides -- the people and the corporations. But the money that comes from the people can't hold a candle to the corporations'. So, guess who loses?

Boxcar
Well we had agreement for a minute there. Then you had to go and make it a partisan thing. The problem is not just the Dems, the Repubs are just as guilty. BOTH parties are under the control of the corporate lobbyists. And yes the politicians are in it for themselves, ALL politicians.
The people do not have the money but, they do have the votes. As long as the corporate powers can keep us arguing amongst ourselves they will maintain control. And the fascism continues.

[acorn54]

we hang the petty thieves and vote the great ones to office

[DRIVEWAY]

There's a need for productivity in medicine. Since medicine is labor intensive, one of the fastest and easiest ways to improve productivity is to reduce the labor component.

Today there is a new procedure called the Virtual Colonostopy. It is performed using imaging equipment by a medical technician. It costs 30-40% of a standard Colonostopy and the Doctor only becomes involved if there is a problem.

In ninety plus percent of the time, the Virtual Colonostopy is all that is required. In the other ten or less percent of the time a regular colonostopy or surgery are required.

The general reluctance of people age 50+ to have a colonostopy is overcome. Early detection is therefore increased and longevity is also enhanced.

It sounds like a no brainer. But it's not. My doctor called the procedure stupid. His opinion is to do a standard colonostopy and fix the majority of problems in one step. Cost is not a consideration to him.

Is the Doctor right or is he protecting his legacy approach?

[Tom]

Are you qualified to make that judgment?
Is the doctor aware of something you are not?

Is it just a cost consideration?
Why don't we allow other doctors to offer the cheaper procedure to anyone who wants it? Why are we tied to a primary care doctor?
Why can't we have the option of shopping for procedures, like physicals, screenings, etc, and control our own medical files, which we bring with us to the various doctors we visit? Let our PCP review that various things we do on our own.

[DRIVEWAY]

Are you qualified to make that judgment?
Is the doctor aware of something you are not?

Is it just a cost consideration?
Why don't we allow other doctors to offer the cheaper procedure to anyone who wants it? Why are we tied to a primary care doctor?
Why can't we have the option of shopping for procedures, like physicals, screenings, etc, and control our own medical files, which we bring with us to the various doctors we visit? Let our PCP review that various things we do on our own.

Ask your HMO or PPO why you're tied to a primary care doctor. It's a big brother control. Who does the Doctor work for - patient or Insurance co?

Medicare doesn't tie you to any Doctor.

How do you shop medical procedures when Doctors don't post their real prices. They have list prices which are exorbitant. Then they negotiate with the payor(insurance or government) and bitch that they're not being paid enough.

We need standard prices set for every procedure by zipcode. Let the doctors advertise discounts or specials like every other business.

As far as controlling our own medical records, yes yes yes.

[Tom]

Then why doesn't congress address those items? You know, something would actually reduce costs?

Oh, wait, what am I smoking? :cool: