Cheatin

[superfecta]

A comment by a recent post made me wonder, do you think cheating is as widespread in racing as the people standing around you on an average day at the track say it is?
I am constantly amazed at how many horseplayers will say the races are fixed.
This is after they have lost of course,no one wins a race and sez ,"Boy ,I am glad I got in on the steam on that one"
Are there any tracks you won't play because you think they are fixing races?

[Dave Schwartz]

I think there are a significant amount of unethical practices and a somewhat smaller amount of illegal ones.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Bobby]

I'm not sure how widespread cheating is. I doubt there is much, if any, cheating at the major tracks. However, I can't help but remember the horse (Valhol??) that won the Arkansas Derby a few years back, and ESPN caught red-handed the jockey dropping a battery-powered buzzer onto the track.
Bobby

[MikeH]

I'm not sure if you are referring to my comment about Penn National. Those that know me know that, if I thought that racing in general was fixed, I wouldn't be spending my time writing informative posts to PA's Message Board.

To be blunt, people at the Races that repetitively state that races are fixed should be referred to Gamblers' Anonymous. If they think that they are fixed, why are they playing them?

I agree with Dave Schwartz' post. Penn National has had recurring problems; Robbie(?) Hansen's body was found next to the footings to one of Northern California's Bay Bridges,... There are a few illegal doings out there. But, let's face it, people: it's a parimutuel game. You can only make a certain amount without depressing the odds. Do you think that Chris McCarron or Eddie Delahoussaye would risk an annual income of $500,000 ++ to cash a $30,000 trifecta?? The jockeys in California and New York make more in one race than the Penn National guys made on all the races that they threw... (Well, I might be stretching it a little here, but you get the point.)

[smf]

I worked in the Defense Electronics industry for over 20 years and I can tell you I _never_ saw any underhanded dealings that cost the shareholders/ public any money.

Brrrrwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha.

I won't bet Retama or Sam Houston unless it's straight wagers on a top-flite trainer. Seen too much junk go on at these 2 tracks over the years. At Hou it's the same jock involved (3 different times).

Overall, I believe it's straight-up enough I suppose. Certainly as reliable as any other business.

[PaceAdvantage]

I still love watching Stevens and Day pull up in the 1995 Kentucky Derby......you should go back and watch it if you get a chance, and make sure you have your finger on the frame by frame advance......LOL


==PA

[baravot]

And if I do, just exactly what will I see?

good article on race fixin by Jay Cronley over at ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/horse/columns/misc/1235880.html

[Dave Schwartz]

mrdezo,

Yeah, I've heard that story before. There must be almost no cheating because you can't get a bunch of trainers/jockeys etc to agree on anything.

I've also heard people say that they think there is very little cheating in casino gaming because, "Why would they?"

Yeah, right.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Whitehos]

I was at my local track one day when a fellow patron began ranting about fixed races. This was at the time that a couple of guys by the name of Milliken and Boesky were being indited for stock price fixing and the same week that a State Appeals Judge committed suicide after an investigation learned he was fixing the verdict of large civil suits. After telling him this his answer was,"whats left?"
If it involves people and money, there is nothing left.
Whitehos

[Dave Schwartz]

WHitehos,

Exactly my point.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by baravot
And if I do, just exactly what will I see?


It was quite a famous incident. The investigation made the cover of the DRF back then. I guess you'll see what you want to see. The official explanation was that it was a shadow. I have no idea what it is, but it acts like no shadow I've ever seen.....


==PA

[baravot]

PA,

I was out of touch with racing then. Could you please provide some details? Thanks

[Lefty]

This is the most policed sport of any... Valhol incident:
Purse taken away, jockey suspended.
Like they say, always someone taking shortcuts, but don't think they get away with them all that often.
If I did, i'd quit playing.

[Tuffmug]

This is a WISE GUYS Game! You have to accept that fact to play the horses. The WISE GUYS and the trainers and owners. What they know about the horse and what they intend to do in a given race are the things we have to guess about to make a profitable wager.

YOU LOSE if you guess they are going for it today but they ACTUALLY are just preping the horse for another race. Trainers and owners secretly running prep races is the most dishonest part of this game as they allow the public to bet on a horse with no chance of winning!

[so.cal.fan]

Has anyone read Kelso Sturgeon's new book?
He thinks the races are crooked!
I don't think much about it. I think there are unethical things going on, like Dave says. However....if I concentrated on cheating, it would destroy my handicapping. I've seen it happen.
Better to correct your own errors, too many horseplayers blame "crookedness" on the fact that they are incompetent handicappers.
If you feel uncomfortable betting at certain tracks, like smf pointed out, stay clear of them.

[Dave Schwartz]

So.Cal.Fan,

I agree with you.

To pretend that cheating doesn't exist would be to keep your head in the sand. (Hard to see much taht way.)

To dwell on it beyond the point where you accept it as part of the game will make you crazy. If that is how one feels, they'd be better off taking up some other sport to be interested in. (Maybe something like WWF. <G>)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[karlskorner]

There are legitimate ways to "fix" a race.

1. RACING SEC. He is the "chief fixer" he can write races
for certain horses on the ground. He
can "persuade" trainers to enter horses
to fill a card. He has a good knowledge
of all the horses in the stables.

2.TRAINER If he has the ability to read the condition
book, he can place his charge where it
belongs. Proper feeding, exercise and
training add to the "fix"

3.MAINTENANCE The ground crew can change
yesterdays surface into something you
would not recognize today, part of the
"fix"

4. VETERINARIAN Pain "fixes" races. If he can ger rid of
the pain he can "fix" a race.

5. BLACKSMITH A good horse can be made sound and
the race "fixed" with the proper shoes.
A trainers best ally. Add to this grooms,
jockey's agents, the weather and you
get my idea on how a race can be "fixed"

Karl

[tanda]

Also, should not most the race fixing even out over the long run.

A handicapper will lose races to a fix, but will not he also win races when he inadvertently bets on a fixed race?

In other words, view race fixing (to whatever extent it occurs) as part of the randomness of the sport. In the long run, that stuff evens out.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by baravot
PA,

I was out of touch with racing then. Could you please provide some details? Thanks


At the end of the 1995 Kentucky Derby, Gary Stevens and Pat Day pulled up their mounts side by side and appear to shake hands in a victory salute (Stevens rode Thunder Gulch, Day rode Timber Country)....a woman watching the race on ABC noticed that it appeared that something was passed from Stevens to Day during the handshake and called the network.

News got out, and the still shot of the exchange was on the cover of the DRF (it was completely unclear in the photo). Churchill stewards took a look I believe and concluded it was a shadow after both jockeys denied anything was passed between them.

I then looked at the tape myself and my jaw hit the floor as I frame by framed the end of the race. Everyone I've ever shown the tape to agrees with my assesment that something appears to be passed, and most of these people were non-believers to begin with.

I don't have a clue what might have been passed. But to say it is a shadow is hard to believe if you watch the tape and study it carefully.

Weird story came out a few months ago about two brothers from California who had tried to extort money from Gary Stevens in relation to this incident. They demanded money from him and mailed him still photos and other stuff related to the 1995 Derby in an attempt to bribe him I suppose. They were both arrrested for extortion.

I'm not implying that any cheating occured in the 1995 Kentucky Derby. I just don't believe that it is a shadow that everyone sees when they look at the replay. Shadows don't have the physical properties seen on that tape. At least not on this planet.

Since both jocks deny anything was passed between them, I will always remain quite suspicious.


==PA

[Dave Schwartz]

Tanda,

No, it does not even out... and the better the handicapper the more it works against him.

Think about it like this:

A handicapper is making a decision based upon his assessment of the race. The better the handicapper, the more accurate his prognostication will be.

Cheating is something that flies in the face of any handicapping. Think of it as "noise" if you choose to. The noisier the game is, the more difficult it is to get a handle on what wins.

Or, if you prefer, think of it as simply an "abnormal" race.

Whatever it takes to win an "abnormal" race is something different than a "normal" race. But, since we lack the ability to tell one from another, the abnormal races will run different than what we expected and work against us.

When you think about this, remember that trainers/jockeys do not cheat with 2/5 shots. The more predictable the horse is, the less likely he is to be cheated with (in a positive way).


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[karlskorner]

Tanda;

In nature, the person who can adapt to it's specific enviroment is the one who survives. In handicapping it is the same way. Don't expect the track to adapt to you,
you must adapt to the track. That is why I work one track and manage to survive.

Karl

[Rick Ransom]

Yeah, but if it's in claiming races they may not be trying to fool you. They're probably trying to fool anyone who might want to claim their horse. If you think of the other trainers and owners as being their competition instead of you, it may improve your profitability.

I don't know. What do any of you who are "insiders" think? Are these guys trying to cash bets all the time or are they trying to run a business? It seems to me that running a profitable business is easier than beating the track takeout. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Rick Ransom]

karlscorner,

Great summary of the way races can be fixed. Well, OK if it happens, then maybe you can tune in to when it's going to occur. I was in the groove at Northern California tracks when Ron Hansen was doing his thing in the 80's. Unfortunately, he was permanently put out of business. The general idea though is to look for a jockey or trainer who never wins at short odds but always wins at longer odds. I still don't think there are very many of these cases, but if you find one, ride it out as long as possible.

[karlskorner]

Rick;

I think you went right on by me, those are legitimate "fixes" that take place at every track in the country. All of them perfectly legal. These are all reasons I feel it necessary to be there. A handicapper must be able to understand the condition book and what a conditioner is trying to do with his horse.

He must be able to go to the paddock and have a first hand look at the animal he is interested in, he must check the "shoe' board for any changes plus any changes in equipment to the horse, there has tp be a reason the trainer put a "tongue tie" or shadow roll on his charge. He must keep records and charts to indicate how the horse ran his last race, was he "ridden out" after the finish line, etc.

There has to be a reason the jocks agent switched him from a horse in this race that he won on to another animal. CRC posts on their site a maintenance report, indicating what was done to the triack in the morning, you have to understand why the surface was graded a certain way. I could go on, but I think you understand what I mean. It has become a ritual with me prior to each race.

And then of course we come to the "candy store" the Vet runs and that something I have no control over.

Karl

[Dave Schwartz]

Karl,

Could you please explain what you mean by a "legal" fix?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
[B]


At the end of the 1995 Kentucky Derby, Gary Stevens and Pat Day pulled up their mounts side by side and appear to shake hands in a victory salute (Stevens rode Thunder Gulch, Day rode Timber Country)....a woman watching the race on ABC noticed that it appeared that something was passed from Stevens to Day during the handshake and called the network.

ME:
Do you really think some woman in her house ,probably thousands of miles away,could see something that no one else saw?Not the stewards,the people watching the race at the track,and the 15 million others watching from their home?

PA:
Weird story came out a few months ago about two brothers from California who had tried to extort money from Gary Stevens in relation to this incident. They demanded money from him and mailed him still photos and other stuff related to the 1995 Derby in an attempt to bribe him I suppose. They were both arrrested for extortion.

ME:
The incident came soon after Chris Antleys death,and I suspect it had more to do with Gary being in the spotlight at that time.Don't you think if Gary had something to hide he would'nt want the police involved?As I recall,he requested protection at the time.

PA:
I'm not implying that any cheating occured in the 1995 Kentucky Derby. I just don't believe that it is a shadow that everyone sees when they look at the replay. Shadows don't have the physical properties seen on that tape. At least not on this planet.

Since both jocks deny anything was passed between them, I will always remain quite suspicious.

ME:
Since these guys make millions of dollars a year,what in the world could you bribe them with?Unless you had pictures of them sleeping with their Derby horse,I can't see what you would have to do to get them to throw the worlds most famous race.

I would say some sort of fixing goes on at some tracks,but on a small scale at the smaller tracks is probably the extent of it.And the ironic part is I bet even then the race doesn't go like the fixers would like.

But what about the horse put in a race to get his endurance up?His connections don't expect him to win ,is that a "fix"?What if the horse accidently wins is that a fix?

[PaceAdvantage]

Do you really think some woman in her house ,probably thousands of miles away,could see something that no one else saw?Not the stewards,the people watching the race at the track,and the 15 million others watching from their home?

Quite fortunately, ABC had a very NICE close-up on the two jockeys just as they shook hands. It was very easy to see it on TV on the ABC telecast. Like I said, it received some pretty good media coverage, and made the front page of the Daily Racing Form. Obviously the questions raised by this television viewer had enough merit to start an investigation.

Since these guys make millions of dollars a year,what in the world could you bribe them with?Unless you had pictures of them sleeping with their Derby horse,I can't see what you would have to do to get them to throw the worlds most famous race.

Money, no matter how wealthy you are, can be a very motivating factor. Lets not forget who the owner of Thunder Gulch was/is.

And just because someone is a success and wealthy doesn't mean they don't do stupid things that can screw up their careers and lives. Can anyone say OJ Simpson, Richard Nixon, Robert Downey Jr., Bill Clinton, and a host of others who have done things they shouldn't have, potentially ruining their careers and lives....

I would say some sort of fixing goes on at some tracks,but on a small scale at the smaller tracks is probably the extent of it.

Can anyone say Arkansas Derby, a Grade II nationally televised race at a major racecourse???? And I dare say the video that incriminated Valhol's jockey Patin compares quite well with the video I am talking about in the 1995 Derby. It's just that Patin is no Gary Stevens/Pat Day, so Stevens/Day get the complete benefit of the doubt because of who they are.

The only difference between the Arkansas Derby video and the 1995 Kentucky Derby video (in my opinion) is that Pat Day had a tighter grip on the situation.


Unless you have seen the tape with your own eyes, in frame by frame slo-mo, you really can't dismiss my opinions with what "should be". I highly suggest you find someone who has a copy of that race from the ABC TV feed and watch it yourself.


==PA

[4thandlong]

Do you have access to a copy PA? If so, can you post it (or a still from it) showing the "foreign object"?

[smf]

Roger Stein stated on his program that a Frankel or a Baffert drugging a horse is like Bill Gates robbing a 7-11..."what is the point, and why would he need the money? The risk is greater than the reward".

Well, that's hard to argue. However, I remember people in the 60s and 70s saying that TEXAS, OU, Alabama, Notre Dame, USC, etc didn't HAVE to cheat to win football games. Why would they "risk" getting caught and forfeiting championships? (that line sounds so ridiculous now, it's laughable).

Turns out they DID have to cheat to win, and they did it in bigtime style.

I don't doubt racing is much different. It's just a part of the game that won't go away.

[karlskorner]

Dave Schwartz;

See my post 8-10 posts back. These are legal ways to fix a race and than some.

Karl

[Dave Schwartz]

Karl,

Don't know how I missed that post.

I agree with you. Those are unethical, but legal practices.


Thanks.

Dave Schwartz

[karlskorner]

Dave;

I am not certain if I can agree with "unethical", everything I mentioned are everday occurances. Unfortunately the simulcast players are not privy to this information and the general public who attend a track don't make themselves available to it.

Karl

[Tom]

The track advertises that you come out and bet on horses. Now, not every horse is meant to win or even try. Aside from the fact that our job as handicappers is to figure this out, but to the general publc, people we are trying to cultivate as regular fans, isn't thie the same thing as fraud?
Did you ever see a roullette wheels with a number taped off because it was just painted?
And at Finger Lakes, there is the biggest rip-off
I have ever heard of, and it the reason to ever play seriously there again. they use a flipping halter. What this is is a special halter that they "flip" over the starting gate so that when it opens, the horse is literally pulled out ot a good start. I know this sounds incredible, but it is true, and horses being flipped are listed on the changes board at the track. Problem is, if you play off track, there is no announcement, and there is no records kept so you never know if a horse was flipped or not in previuos races, unless you go daily and keep your own records.
Apparently, this is not done at all tracks because a certain type of starting gate is need to work.
Everything is legit and out in the open, but it stinks and it is clearly cheating to me.
Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

A number on the roulette wheel "taped off?"

As someone that spent way to many years in Nevada gaming, I can tell you that I have never heard of that. It would be a violation of the gaming code.

It would be something like taking a few cards out of a deck and playing onward.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[so.cal.fan]

There always have been people who HAVE to cheat. It doesn't matter how much they have or don't have. Cheating IS the game to them. That is their challenge.
It is like that in business, politics and anything in between.
Most people are honest, but since the beginning of time, there are always going to be the ones who just have to cheat to satisfy themselves.
Bill Gates wouldn't rob a 7-11, but he may try some other means of getting that little extra, even if it is not honest. Wasn't he investigated by the government?
Why would Bill Clinton "cheat"? Gary Condit?
Why would certain top trainers be any different?
Or jockeys?
However, after saying that, I do believe that 99% of people in racing are honest, I doubt if we could say that about politicians.

[Rick Ransom]

karlscorner,

I was thinking along the lines of races being "fixed" in legitimate or undetectable ways. You mentioned some cases that are usually legitimate, maybe not always. Since their are so many people controlling things that could make a horse run better or worse, at least one of them may be tempted to affect the outcome of a race.

It might not be for money, it might be a favor for an influential person who'll surely pay them back later. It might be track maintenance changing the surface to suit an owner who also happens to own the track. It might be someone not feeding the horse right so this race will be dull in order to cash in later. It might be someone trying to get revenge on a famous trainer. The possibilities are endless.

You're absolutely right that it is important to be at the track to get all of the information you can. That's not always possible for most of us, but I'll admit you do have an advantage as a careful observer.

[Lefty]

Dave, Karl described his "legal Fixes" towards the top of
page 2 of this thread. And I think to call these situations
"fixes" is quite a stretch and "legal fixes"? can you say
oxymoron?

[Lefty]

Tuffmug, funny, the late Huey Mahl used to write that when he owned horses and got in with other owners,
trainers and typical "wiseguys" is when he LOST more
money betting horses than ever before.

[Tuffmug]

Lefty,

The biggest edge the "WISEGUYS" have is knowing when their horse ISN'T going to WIN. I would love to have that edge.

When they try to win with THEIR horse they are confronted with the same handicapping puzzle we are, what are the OTHER WISEGUYS trying to do!

[Tom]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Tom,

A number on the roulette wheel "taped off?"

As someone that spent way to many years in Nevada gaming, I can tell you that I have never heard of that. It would be a violation of the gaming code.

It would be something like taking a few cards out of a deck and playing onward.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

D'oh!!
No wonder I always lose!!!

No, actually, I fogot the ~G~ in that post.
I meant it as an absurd example. You don't have some betting interests that have no chance to win.
Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

Now that makes more sense. <G>


Dave

[tanda]

It seems like some of Karlskorners "fixes" are actually the application of skill.

His examples of trainer actions seems to me to be skill on the part of a trainer. The same can be said about the blacksmith or vetenarian. The application of skill, strategy, tactic, etc. is not "fixing" a race.

Also, there is nothing illegal about placing a horse improperly. A player should know that not all horses are well-intended. And this phenomenon is not unethical.

For example, if Tiznow returns in an allowance race before the Breeders' Cup (Yes, I know he is scheduled for the Woodward), do any of you believe he will be fully cranked up? Would you tell your jockey to go all out, risking injury, for a meaningless win? The answers are NO.

If casual fans do not know this, that is not fraud. It is lack of knowledge/ability by those fans.

Do the Yankees go all out to win in spring training? Or after they have clinched the division title? How about when Tiger Woods deliberately experiments new shots in the Western Open in order to prepare the shots he needs for the British Opem, thereby compromising his chances to win the Western?

Any competitor knows that you cannot physically peak for every race/game/match, etc. Every competitor knows that some events are used as practices and preps. The fact that a trainer does that is fine. The other day I had a golf match well won on the 18th hole, so I tried to hit a shot that was risky (and which I never would have hit in a close match) for future reference. Was I cheating by deliberately not playing my best (by choosing an inferior shot)? Of course not, even if people were betting on me.

You may think that trainers/jockeys have an obligation to go all out in each race. That is not true. Sometimes the long term interests of the horse supersede the short run goal of winning one race. That is why handicapping requires that you determine if a horse is well-intended and what the trainers goals are for this race. Sometimes his goal is not to win the race (and not for the nefarious reason of cashing a bet).

[Tuffmug]

The ETHICAL thing for a trainer sending out a horse for EXCERCISE or as a PREP which he does not intend to WIN with is to run him for PURSE MONEY ONLY and not to allow him to be a BETTING CHOICE.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by 4thandlong
Do you have access to a copy PA? If so, can you post it (or a still from it) showing the "foreign object"?


I have a copy of the race, but I don't have the means to digitize the video at this time.....


==PA

[karlskorner]

Lefty, Tanda, etal

To quote from the poem "The Cremation of Sam Magee"

There are "strange" things done
under the midnight sun,
By men who moil for gold

I guess the word "fix" was taken out of context and interpreted to mean something illegal, when all I meant was that there are numerous legitimate procedures that can be taken by trainers and others connected with the racing industry to try and insure the outcome of a particular race. Unfortunately the general public is not informed of this.

The Trainers singular purpose for being at the track is to win races. Unhappy owners soon move their stock out of a trainers barn should he fail to produce purses (gold) When all else fails, the Trainer may have to shop at the Vet's "candy store"

Karl

[Tom]

We can all jaw all day long about what is right, wrong,
fraudulent, unethical, or downright illegal, but the bottom line is what the casual palyers perceive the game. If a person goes to the track and thinks he got robbed, he won't be back, whether or not he robbed gfor real. Raciong has more stories about fixes and cheating than anyother sport. The WWF has more creditbility to a lot of people than racing, and they admit it is scripted!
As long as we have so many losing trainers and jockeys (earnings-wise) there will be abuses to the game. The game has got to be focused on the bettors, not the trainers, jockeys, owners. We need less of them and more of us. Simulcasting makes it unnecessary for a lot of third and fourth tracks to exist. Racing needs to thin out the heard. As it is, it is welfare and guess who is paying the bills?

Tom

[anotherdave]

Many years ago, at a small track that I used to go to, there was this big deal about a particular race months before where the jockeys of the two big favourites admitted to stiffing their horses. I checked the race in my records and I won the race and got 10-1 on the horse!

You never know!

[Rick Ransom]

Wow! I can't believe the controversy this is causing. At least it's not harness racing, then you'd have a legitimate gripe. You're going to have to live with the fact that everything is not 100% honest in horse racing, or at the company that you work at, or with the politicians in the country you live in. Try living overseas for a while as I did. After that, you'll think people are extraordinarily honest in this country.

I think so.cal.fan has it right. Most people are honest but a few like to cheat no matter how much it costs. Watch COPS on Saturday night sometime. These guys who get caught are idiots who can't possibly win, but a few try anyway.

[Dave Schwartz]

Rick,

I think there is also the issue that many of them do not feel that they ARE cheating.

I spent years in the gaming industry. I recall asking a fellow 21-dealer (that was an admitted card mechanic) about 20+ years ago how he slept at night, stealing from people. His response was something like: "What difference does it make? They are going to lose anyway."

It is amazing what the mind can justify if it works to do so.

It is possible that many trainers' attitudes are "All is fair in love, war, and horse racing."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

Dave brings up a good point-casino cheating. If you are a good player and win too much, they can throw you out for no reason. Card counters are basically the casino version of a good handicapper. I call this cheatin too.

Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

I made my living for several years in the '70s as a card counter. (Until I couldn't play any more.) In fact, that is how I got into horse racing... looking for something else to beat. LOL - I thought, "It should take me about 6 months to beat the horses... It took 9 YEARS!"

As a former card counter, I must disagree with you on this one. I don't see where the casinos owe me (or anyone else) a living. I don't blame them for "pulling someone up."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

I am surpprised you say that, having been a counter.
The casino didn't owe you anything, you went out and learned it and worked hard to perfect it (I assume).
I consider that to be your right. I think it is cheating becasue the casino sets all the odds in its favor to begin with, so the games are basically fixed . Then you come along and are good enough to beat them in spite of their edge and they take their ball and go home.
Tom

[tanda]

I agree with Dave.

If I run a business (blackjack) and you have a demonstrated ability to make money off me and cause me losses, why should I be compelled to continue to do business with you?

I think there are good PR reasons why casinos should tolerate winners and rough treatment of winners is not acceptable. But the right to terminate or refuse to enter an unprofitable business relationship seems to be a right we all should have.

The argument is that they make so much money off of other players, they can afford the winners. That is true. But you can say that about any business. Should McDonald's be forced to sell food at a loss to some people just because they make so much money off the other customers that they can afford a losing deal on a few?

[Tom]

That is apples and oranges using McDonalds.
Buying food at a known set price is nothing at all like betting into a game of chance.
Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

I don't think it IS "apples and oranges."

I guarantee you that a bunch of competant card counters playing out of a gigantic bankroll could easily cause a small (and I really mean SMALL) casino to make nothing for the year.

I am reminded of a REALLY huge guy I used to know about 25 years ago back in Florida. He weighed in at around 550 pounds. Every night he went to dinner at this place that offered a 72-ounce steak dinner along with the advertisment, "Dinner free if you can eat it all."

Now, should this place of business be forced to feed this man for the rest of his (likely shortened) life?

Legally, yes, they should because they advertised this deal. Of course, they could add a bit of small print at the bottom which says, "People over 500 pounds may be excluded."

Morally, perhaps not, because there is such a thing as common decency on the part of the patron.

I contend that the casinos, having made no such advertisement, are entitled to bar people as they see fit.

Actually, my experiences regarding being barred from playing in Nevada casinos have been (with a couple of exceptions) very pleasant.

I recall being barred from playing at the old Mint Hotel in Las Vegas. The swing shift manager said, "I am sorry but we've got to pull you up. But please let me buy you dinner any time you are in the area."

I had many fine dinners (some with 2 or 3 friends) at the expense of the Mint. And, in return for this kindness I did not partake there often. The Mint and I parted friends.

In contrast, I was once removed almost forcibly from the Flamingo Hilton (1977) by five large security guards. LOL - They waited impatiently while I cashed out my $20k in winnings. In the meantime I screamed for a gaming agent, they read me the "tresspass act," I got into a cab and left.

Stories? I got a million of them from those days. (And as I get older I seem to like telling them even more. Okay, and maybe they get embellished a bit as well. <G>)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Lefty]

Tuffmug, only place I ever noticed horses sometimes
running for purse only is NY. I always wondered what
that was about. Maybe your post 'splains it.

[Rick Ransom]

Dave,

I counted cards, lived in Vegas and Reno, and worked in the gaming industry for a while. Are we living in parallel universes or something? I knew a woman who was on one of Ken Uston's teams. Now there's an interesting story.

[Dave Schwartz]

Rick,

And I knew almost everyone on Ken Uston's team(s). <LOL> They were a wild and crazy bunch.

Dave

[Tom]

You know, I was going to use the all-you-can-eat example. I say, if you advertise it, live with it.

BTW, what is the address of that place with the big steak? ~G~


Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

Oh, he closed them down long ago. Just before he died of a stroke, I think. <G>


Dave

PS: If the high red meat content of his diet didn't kill him the extremely bad steaks would have. <G>

[Rick Ransom]

Dave,

Alice was her first name, I don't remember the last. She worked for the "BP". I talked to her when I was in slot technician school in Las Vegas. She went to Colorado to work for somebody who may have been a little "connected". That was 1993.

I worked as a floorman for a while and then later for Bally Systems in Las Vegas and Reno doing installation and customer service for slot accounting systems.

I was in Vegas when Rosenthal and Spilotro were there. The daily news was better than "Casino" in the 70's and early 80's. The Stardust even had a TV show on for a while that had guys that would be considered Godfather or Sopranos stereotypes these days.

[Dave Schwartz]

Is "BP" the "Bingo Palace?"

If so, I have an interesting story. And, I think I knew ALice.

Dave

[tanda]

Tom,

You are right about the advertisement. Without a disclaimer, it is an offer which is binding once it is accepted by the patron. However, the casinos make no such offer. They have the right, and it is well known, to refuse service to people of their choice.

The casinos are a business. Why must they be compelled to engage in losing transactions?

Also, with card counters, it is not a game of chance in the long run. It has been proven mathematically and through personal experience that proper basic strategy plus a competent point count system (with a betting strategy) can lead to a long term edge for the player.

The problem is that casinogoers (except for blackjack card counters and some video poker players) willingly play a losing game. Just because they are stupid enough to do that does not mean that the casinos must be forced to do the same on the rare occasions when a losing proposition for them arises. Can you really blame them for being smart enough/disciplined enough to say no to losing deals. The fact that so many of their customers cannot does not make their practice wrong.

[karlskorner]

The one good thing about "cheating" is that the monies go back into circulation, "somebody" benefits from it. Very few people can hoard their ill gotten gains. If you haven't gotten your share yet, you will, you will.

Karl

[Tom]

tanda,
You are correct. It is absolutely legal. I am talking about integrity. That is something you don't see much of anymore, and rarely in this game.
To many people use "business" as an excuse for their lack of ethics, integrity, and honesty. It is not an excuse for that activuty, it is merely an refelction of their character. Or lack of it.

Tom

[Lefty]

I was no genius but picked up a few hundred here and
there using a simplified "shortcount" I was satisfied to
win a $100 any one place and leave. AND I was still barred from 3 places.
Dave, Ken Ustin certainly disagreed with your "casino
protection act from smart people" as he had several lawsuits going.
I disagree too. They advertise in effect: "come in play
our games and our rules" If you win they want to cry and throw you out. Their signs should also read: IF YOU
DIDN'T LEAVE YOUR BRAIN AT HOME YOU MAY BE ASKED TO LEAVE

[Larry Hamilton]

I purposely stayed away from this thread as it's title "Cheatin" is loaded with potential ambiguity. I was certain the title would find away to draw excuse after excuse for losing.

I was bored this morning so I read the whole thing (it takes me a while to get thru stuff)...

In particular, I was fascinated with the disucssion about card counting. I would love to see what the license to game says. Does it say that the establishment can evict any they choose. Or does it say they can evict cheaters? What is a cheater? Who defines cheating? Does it say, this license is provide to this gaming establishiment provided it only caters to those who cant win? Personally, I think this stinks. It appears that the establishment has provided games which the client cant win, and have the legal system to ensure that their edge does not change. Who else gets such a deal in business--only the IRS.

If I use my brain to forecast an outcome, how in the hell is that cheating? If I could predict the outcome of a race by counting the buttons on the jocks shirt, would I be escorted from the track for button counting?

These gaming businesses are doing what the law makers are allowing them to do. Dont blame the businesses, they are trying to protect there gains. You want to find the snake(s) in all of this, follow the money.

Wait! I just figured a way to console everyone about card counting. In each casion, there should be two black jack tables. One should be labeled,
"WINNERS ONLY-10 cents limit" and the other should be labled "LOSERS ONLY-no limit"

Or how about this one..every casino and track you enter, you give the ticket taker 500 bucks. Now you can play all the games you like, pull all the handles, yack about every race but you cant you use money...Oh, make sure you get the back of your hand stamped, cause if you go out to the truck to get a sandwich or a little taste of jack black, they will have to charge you again to get back in...Monthly tickets are also available for 20,000 a month.

[Dave Schwartz]

Larry,

You should consider writing a book... that was an entertaining post.

The reality of the "joints' (and as my daddy used to say, "They're all joints... some glittzier than others but still joints.") is that they are built on the backs of the "recreational" players. That is, the people that like the idea that they come in and take up their time pulling handles, guessing colors and/or numbers, or being religious. ("Oh God, PLEASE give me an 8!")

The point is that these joints were not designed for anyone that (heaven forbid) figured out how to consistently come out with more than they walked in with.

As a testimony to that, I offer up two examples:

Example 1. slot teams - Slot teams (essentially) wait for a progressive jackpot to reach a point where every wager has a positive expectancy. This means that the casino has already gotten its "pc" (we'd call that "percentage").

So, what do they care whether it is a team player or a little old lady from Pasadena that hits it? Well, they do care because the slot teams siphon money out of the casino coffers, never to return.

Example 2. sports book middle players - Often called "Bette Middlers," these teams of players search for discrepencies in the line from one book to another and play both the long and the short end (i.e. take and lay the points) hoping to catch the "middle" where they win both bets.

Again, why should the casinos care? In fact, one could argue that the BMs serve a purpose FOR THE CASINO by naturally moving the line back to "balance." Nevertheless, they do.


In both these examples the casinos have taken a stand (though not neccessarily a strong one) against these team efforts. The issue is not because they are team oriented but simply because they result in someone winning.

So, if you want to be angry at them, I can see you point. Of course, it won't do any good, really. <G>

By the way, there is a third type of player that the casinos don't like... the winner that bets big.

I am not referring to the guy that has an edge, such as a card counter, sports bettor, or horse player. I am talking about a guy that has simply been consistently lucky in one club. (Yes, it happens.) I have seen "joints" (boy, I love that word) strongly discourage winning players from returning. They prefer stupid players... players that simply throw their money away.

Rick? Care to share your experiences?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Larry Hamilton]

I can see that i know very little about professional gambling...I hope you, rick, john and others wax long winded for quite a while..thank you for the education

[Tom]

I have been to casinos twice and if I never go to another one it wouldn't bother me in the least.
When I did go, I played slots and roulette and blackjack.
I won the most on slots. I consider it entertainment pure and simple. If I am going to gamble, it's going to be horses or poker. And not casino poker. Real poker, where drunken stiffs put up thier rent and grocery money in someone's basement or garage or the back room of a bar after hours, real gambling. Not this ritz-fritzy bright light BS they pass of as gambling. Spittin' on the floor, chuggin' brewskies, searing, breathing in second hand smoke, that's real gamling. Not this James Bond "Banko!" style of play-"Gimme three, a*****e, and they better be good!" gambling.
Or else the track, where things aren't alway as polite as poker.
Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Larry,

I hope you did not misunderstand me. I meant it when I said it was an entertaining post.

I enjoyed reading it and did not mean to infer that you did not know what you were talking about.

I hope you did not take it that way.


Dave

[Larry Hamilton]

no hard feelings dave...I was merely remarking the obvious--I dont know much about the gambling world outside of horses..

[Rick Ransom]

Dave,

I remember the Bingo Palace but that's not what I was referring to. The "BP" I was referring to was for "Big Player". I'm sure you know what it means but for others, the Big Player was the guy who stepped in and bet the big time money. They had teams counting and would signal this guy to come to the table and play a few hands when there was a large edge for the players at that table.

Alice couldn't work in the legitimate gaming industry because she had a record and couldn't get a gaming card. She didn't say what it was and I didn't ask.

Hey, do you remember the Jolley Trolley? The word was that they had to get a one day loan for a very large amount of money when gaming officials came in to check that their reserve requirements were being met.


Larry,

I was never a full-time 21 player. I was working at the time as a programmer and played during graveyard shift before work a lot. I only made a couple of thousand dollars during a one year period on small bets. I enjoyed the challenge of beating the game, but got tired of the hours. After a few hundred hours of counting cards you start feeling like a machine.

I thought about trying poker too, but there again you have to spend a lot of hours and it's boring to sit there waiting for the right hands. Also, in poker you're trying to find the biggest losers you can to play against. Finding bad opponents improves your profit more than playing a better game. I decided I didn't want to spend all of my time with losers.

So, I got into horse racing where you do spend a lot of hours doing research but it's creative and enjoyable. The betting process itself doesn't occupy much time compared with other games. Sports betting is similar, but you absolutely can't get behind on your record keeping and therefore don't get many days off in the daily sports. NFL football isn't so time consuming since they only play once a week, so I follow that every year.

[Rick Ransom]

Dave,

Since I was a small player I was never actually physically removed from a casino. They usually just started shuffling every hand and I got the message and left. I did a lot of table hopping to increase my edge. I'm positive I couldn't have gotten away with that playing for large money and probably nobody can these days. I probably haven't played more than 100 hands of blackjack in the last 10 years. It gives me a headache now after a while.

It used to be that they would throw out some guys who bet large and got lucky because the pit bosses didn't know how to count and were largely faking it. Now I think most of them know what to look for.

In the early 70's I lived in LA and would buy a Vegas package deal for $10 containing about $50 in two for one free plays at their table games. Then I'd go over on the weekend and play their two for one coupons and see how much I could come back with. If you had any discipline and even only knew basic strategy you should come out ahead on that deal. But apparently most people were stupid enough to blow a lot more than what they were getting anyway.

I don't think anyone gives away anything these days though. And you probably can't find any single deck games anywhere. Some guys are probably still beating the game though. It's hard to resist the chance to be a "wise guy".

[Dave Schwartz]

Rick,

We always referred to the big player as "The Bomber."

I certainly get what you mean, though.

Dave

[Rick Ransom]

Dave,

I only read the book and talked to the one team player. I was a small stakes independent part time player and wasn't thinking about giving up a regular paycheck at the time. Also I didn't know about any of that until years later after I'd stopped playing. Did anyone ever determine what caused Uston's death (in Paris I think)?

[Dave Schwartz]

Rick,

I have no idea. The only time I ever met Ken Uston was over dinner at Binion's one night about a million years ago. Never really followed that thing much.

I was invited to be part of that team a couple of times but was making more money on my own than I would have as a "team member."

Once gave some of the members "cheating lessons." Can't recall if that was a paid gig or not. It probably was, but I can't be sure. LOL - I so hated casinos in those days (still not thrilled with them, but we do mature a bit.) that I used to take would-be card counters aside and tell them what they were doing wrong just so the casinos would have it a little worse.

Ah, the good 'ole days. <G> (Boy, do I sound old!)


Dave

[Rick Ransom]

Dave,

I'm still amused and amazed at how much of an influence gaming has in Nevada politics. They really run the state. The mob may not be involved much anymore but it still looks the same anyway. Look at their position on internet gaming. They reversed their position 180 degrees overnight once they decided it was the best course for the gaming industry. I used to laugh at all of the ads they used to pay for in California warning them of the evils of legalizing gaming there.

And it really is rather strange to equate card counting with cheating and allow a business to say you're trespassing if you play the game too well. If the game is not profitable, they aren't required to offer it. A grocery store that offers loss leader items doesn't have bouncers escort me to the door if I only buy those items. The track doesn't threaten me if I bet into a minus pool.

As you know, it works the same way on the other side of the table too. If a dealer gets too unlucky, he's "cheating" and will never work in the industry again. There's no legal recourse for any of this. You're guilty with no chance to prove otherwise. What other industry could accuse you of stealing and fire you without having to prove it? Oh well, life ain't fair.

Actually though, the main reason I don't go to casinos much any more is that they're just plain boring. Aside from a few changes in the building and the specialty slots to reflect the theme of the place, they all look the same. It's a little better in Reno than Vegas but there are only a handful of places with any real individuality once you get inside.

[Stillriledup]

I still love watching Stevens and Day pull up in the 1995 Kentucky Derby......you should go back and watch it if you get a chance, and make sure you have your finger on the frame by frame advance......LOL


==PA

You don't have to go frame by frame if you know the 'tell'

Why does Stevens look back TWICE at Pat's hand after the initial low five ? Was he thinking I can't believe I got to shake hands w Pat Day? Was he thinking i just want to make doubly sure I didnt accidentally injure Pat with my vice like grip? :eek:

G27sCLfyMgQ

[Kash$]

You don't have to go frame by frame if you know the 'tell'

Why does Stevens look back TWICE at Pat's hand after the initial low five ? Was he thinking I can't believe I got to shake hands w Pat Day? Was he thinking i just want to make doubly sure I didnt accidentally injure Pat with my vice like grip? :eek:

G27sCLfyMgQ

Look at the jockeys head at 12:10 whos inside both of them...Hes looking :lol:

Lukas wasnt he the one on the peta video talking about buzzers?

Lukas the Hall of Fame trainer whos well respected :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Nutz and Boltz]

You don't have to go frame by frame if you know the 'tell'

Why does Stevens look back TWICE at Pat's hand after the initial low five ? Was he thinking I can't believe I got to shake hands w Pat Day? Was he thinking i just want to make doubly sure I didnt accidentally injure Pat with my vice like grip? :eek:

G27sCLfyMgQ


Re-opening a thread from 2001? :D

[EMD4ME]

12:11 Black Box. That's all you need to see.

[Stillriledup]

12:11 Black Box. That's all you need to see.
Tells tell me more than shadows.

[PaceAdvantage]

Re-opening a thread from 2001? :DThe man has no shame. I honestly think he does this to push me and see how far I can bend before I finally break.

The funny thing is he thinks I keep him around because I need his "hits." :lol:

[Stillriledup]

The man has no shame. I honestly think he does this to push me and see how far I can bend before I finally break.

The funny thing is he thinks I keep him around because I need his "hits." :lol:

If you're ever considering jettisoning your best poster (by far :D ) because he bumped an old but relevant post, you have bigger issues.

Not once have you ever thanked me for being your best poster. I know it's not in your DNA, but it would feel good to hear once in a while. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

If you're ever considering jettisoning your best poster (by far :D ) because he bumped an old but relevant post, you have bigger issues.

Not once have you ever thanked me for being your best poster. I know it's not in your DNA, but it would feel good to hear once in a while. ;)Now you're truly delusional.

I'm surprised you haven't taken the hint yet...it's only been dropping for years... :lol:

[deelo]

I think it's the same argument as to when people claim casino games are fixed...No racetrack or casino or wagering system, etc, in their right mind would ever risk their entire operation on being caught cheating the customer...that said, they can't stop individuals here and there from trying to get one over, but I think there's enough regulation most come to light sooner or later.

Also, the average Joe may be consistently losing money to not only sharper bettors but to trainers & owners and all their friends and family. They call it cheating but really they're just losing to people 'more in the know'

[green80]

Pittsburg Phil said it best:

"There is enough natural inconsistency in horse racing without having it forced upon the public by unscrupulous men, yet there is not one-tenth of one per cent, as much crookedness on the turf as it is given credit for."

and that was 100 years ago, not much has changed.

[Dahoss9698]

I've probably watched that video a thousand times over the years and for the life of me I can't make out exactly what is happening. It can be anything from totally innocent to we watched cheating in our biggest race on live TV and they didn't even have the courtesy to try and hide it from us.

But here's my dilemna with the cheating claim. How do you explain Thunder Gulch's prior FOY and Florida Derby wins? How about what he did after the Derby? I guess what I'm saying is the Derby effort doesn't exactly stick out from the other races for him that year.

[EMD4ME]

I've probably watched that video a thousand times over the years and for the life of me I can't make out exactly what is happening. It can be anything from totally innocent to we watched cheating in our biggest race on live TV and they didn't even have the courtesy to try and hide it from us.

But here's my dilemna with the cheating claim. How do you explain Thunder Gulch's prior FOY and Florida Derby wins? How about what he did after the Derby? I guess what I'm saying is the Derby effort doesn't exactly stick out from the other races for him that year.

Maybe there were some awkward low fives in those races as well that were not captured on tape?

[Stillriledup]

I've probably watched that video a thousand times over the years and for the life of me I can't make out exactly what is happening. It can be anything from totally innocent to we watched cheating in our biggest race on live TV and they didn't even have the courtesy to try and hide it from us.

But here's my dilemna with the cheating claim. How do you explain Thunder Gulch's prior FOY and Florida Derby wins? How about what he did after the Derby? I guess what I'm saying is the Derby effort doesn't exactly stick out from the other races for him that year.

TG owned by massive gambler Tabor. I won't ever suggest he 'darkened the form' so that he could try and put William Hill out of business, i guess Hill is still operational so maybe Tabor didn't bet enough. :D

I was curious as to why Pat Day, who took a vicious beat for 2nd was 'happy enough' to rush up to Gary to congratulate him, if it were me, i'd be mad i missed 2nd, historically, jocks who finish 2nd are the first ones to approach the winner, not the guy who finishes 3rd, at least not anytime i can remember.

What worries me is Gary looking down at Pat's hand for 1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi...why wait, why not just try and go for the jubliant low five? If you miss so what, it was like Pat held his hand out steady, palm up and Gary concentrated on that hand and its place in the air space before making a move...than, looked back TWICE one look and then a 'tell' look after the first look....if you're not 'passing the baton' why would you look and then take another quick look, that makes no sense.

I totally agree about trying to hide it, i guess they just figured we would assume it was a low five/congratulations and think nothing of it. Unless you actually see the device being passed, they could just say it was a high/low five, and its their word against anyone trying to suggest otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tabor

[johnhannibalsmith]

Looking back for one or six mississippis could just as easily be you watching a guy looking back to say "hey thanks Pat you son of a bitch!" as it could be him checking to make sure it was a heismanesque handoff. I also have never been convinced that he's got such good and natural mechanics that he can ride a horse with a left handed stick from the middle of the turn to the eighth pole and switch seamlessly and immediately go to a right whip while packing. He'd be in a pretty small class of talent to make it look that good.

That said, I've always had an impossible time being able to conclude with certainty on this one since those few frames do just paint a rather vivid picture.

[Dahoss9698]

TG owned by massive gambler Tabor. I won't ever suggest he 'darkened the form' so that he could try and put William Hill out of business, i guess Hill is still operational so maybe Tabor didn't bet enough. :D

I was curious as to why Pat Day, who took a vicious beat for 2nd was 'happy enough' to rush up to Gary to congratulate him, if it were me, i'd be mad i missed 2nd, historically, jocks who finish 2nd are the first ones to approach the winner, not the guy who finishes 3rd, at least not anytime i can remember.

What worries me is Gary looking down at Pat's hand for 1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi...why wait, why not just try and go for the jubliant low five? If you miss so what, it was like Pat held his hand out steady, palm up and Gary concentrated on that hand and its place in the air space before making a move...than, looked back TWICE one look and then a 'tell' look after the first look....if you're not 'passing the baton' why would you look and then take another quick look, that makes no sense.

I totally agree about trying to hide it, i guess they just figured we would assume it was a low five/congratulations and think nothing of it. Unless you actually see the device being passed, they could just say it was a high/low five, and its their word against anyone trying to suggest otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tabor

I'm very familiar with Tabor. But even if he did what you are not suggesting but really are....how does it explain TG's performances AFTER the Derby?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm very familiar with Tabor. But even if he did what you are not suggesting but really are....how does it explain TG's performances AFTER the Derby?Who says they didn't continue using the same equipment? :lol:

[betovernetcapper]

I spent a season working as a hot walker for my uncle who was a small time trainer. I'd hear rumors about some score that happened to someone somewhere but very little evidence of anything that I'd consider to be a fixed race. Some trainers know how to read condition books better than others and some are more competent at training & placing horses.
A trainer stalled next to us shipped his good horse Olive Tree to AP to run in a turf unlisted stake. He won & paid $307.00 . The trainer, his wife & son had collectively bet $4 to show on the horse. I think a lot of time when huge unpredictable long shots show up the owners & trainers are as surprised as anyone else.
On the other hand many long shots in retrospect have a certain logic. It's just not glaringly obvious.

[12/ALL/ALL]

Andy Beyer had it right about 30 years ago on a PBS show about racing. When asked whether horse racing was honest he said that it was pretty honest. That answer still applies today. As handicappers we all know that we have bet on fixed races but we probably don't know which ones they were. What is important for us is that there isn't enough cheating to make TB racing unplayable.

[so.cal.fan]

This is very true

[Robert Fischer]

some of it depends on what you consider Cheatin'

Was Lance Armstrong cheating?
Was Barry Bonds cheating?
Or just the 1919 Chicago 'black' Sox?

Was Pete Rose cheating if he only bet to win?

Were the 'absolute' incentives for Pete Rose (money, paying off debt etc..) greater than the game incentives (winning the games themselves) to sufficiently incentivize going beyond just betting to 'win' the game??

tough questions

You can't really have insight into any behavioral system, unless you understand the incentives.

The most that I can ask for is to understand the incentives,
to hope that most incentives are aligned with the sporting incentives of the game itself (winning the game),
to be wary when the absolute incentives do not match with the game's incentives,
and to have an opportunity to see a consistent (formful) approach by the contestants.

[azeri98]

The Raiders used to have a large sign in their locker room, not sure if its still there, of the Raider rules. Rule #1 Cheating is encouraged.
Rule #2. See rule #1

[pondman]

A comment by a recent post made me wonder, do you think cheating is as widespread in racing as the people standing around you on an average day at the track say it is?
I am constantly amazed at how many horseplayers will say the races are fixed.
This is after they have lost of course,no one wins a race and sez ,"Boy ,I am glad I got in on the steam on that one"
Are there any tracks you won't play because you think they are fixing races?

I think most trainers have a high level of con in them. And if they can beat you at the window, they will. Jockeys lose races deliberately. You are only getting 10% of the story. I believe the higher end of racing is more competitive, and because of the $$$ involved their is less flimflam. I won't play Indiana at all.

[Stillriledup]

Andy Beyer had it right about 30 years ago on a PBS show about racing. When asked whether horse racing was honest he said that it was pretty honest. That answer still applies today. As handicappers we all know that we have bet on fixed races but we probably don't know which ones they were. What is important for us is that there isn't enough cheating to make TB racing unplayable.


i would say this is generally true, whats disappointing is that racing commissions and judges essentially look the other way with jock shenanigans and whatnut, jocks kinda do whatever they want, there's no real policing the riders other than a minor fine for bumping a horse, standing up before the finish and maybe excessive whipping and of course, smoking in the shedrow.

its kind of the 'we cant prove they were cheating' stuff so they just accept the jocks explanation if he's even questioned at all and move on with their lives. jocks know this, so, take that for what its worth.

[pondman]

Andy Beyer had it right about 30 years ago on a PBS show about racing. When asked whether horse racing was honest he said that it was pretty honest. That answer still applies today. As handicappers we all know that we have bet on fixed races but we probably don't know which ones they were. What is important for us is that there isn't enough cheating to make TB racing unplayable.

I heard this after just spending an hour looking around the corner while a trainer juiced a horse. The jockeys sitting around the barbecue started telling drunk stories about having to pull horses, or they wouldn't ride much.

[TJDave]

I thought that Pat Day was a committed Christian.

[EMD4ME]

I heard this after just spending an hour looking around the corner while a trainer juiced a horse. The jockeys sitting around the barbecue started telling drunk stories about having to pull horses, or they wouldn't ride much.

Care to expand a bit more? Or was this sarcasm?