I want to make my own Software, but how?

[Tom-Oh]

Alright, let me give you the basic idea of what I want to do.

Basically, I have certain things that I look for in the PP when making my picks and I want a software that I can program EXACTLY what I would do manually into it, and with the click of a button have my races handicapped EXACTLY how I would have done them manually, except this would save me lots of time and handicap ALL the races on the card instead of only select ones I would normally do.

Any idea of how I can get this done? Or know someone who can do it for me?

Any information would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thank you!

[ranchwest]

Have you ever done any programming? If so, in what language?

Sounds like you may not have any need to retain the data in a long-term database. Is that correct?

Are you already purchasing data files? If so, from what source? Which files is it that you are purchasing?

[Tom-Oh]

Have you ever done any programming? If so, in what language?

Sounds like you may not have any need to retain the data in a long-term database. Is that correct?

Are you already purchasing data files? If so, from what source? Which files is it that you are purchasing?

I've never done any programming... I would probably need someone to make it for me.

And no I don't need to save the data anywhere... Just maybe be able to print it out or save it to my harddrive?

And yes I already purchase data files from Trackmaster. I have Unlimited so buying tons of .exe's is not a problem.

[JustRalph]

I suggest you look into some of the software that is already out there

There are no magic boxes ...........but you can pretty much do what you want with several different animals that already exist............

[Tom-Oh]

I suggest you look into some of the software that is already out there

There are no magic boxes ...........but you can pretty much do what you want with several different animals that already exist............

I've yet to find a software that will allow me to set it up EXACTLY how I would handicap a race manually. Most already have pre-set things in them that would throw off my method of capping.

If you can find one for me that would allow me to really customize it and work solely off my customizations, that'd be great!

[andymays]

In the what could go wrong category:

When computers were still prehistoric I tried the same thing with a buddy of mine who had some programmming experience. It took us a few months of real hard work and we finally got it done. We went to Del Mar with the selections and because the program was new and I really didn't like the horses it picked I threw them out. Needless to say it had 4 winners with a couple winning at over 20-1. It didn't pick anything over the next week so we went back in and checked it out. We found out that we were assigning positive values to negative attributes and negative values to positive attributes. :eek:

[mmdorn]

I've never done any programming... I would probably need someone to make it for me.

And no I don't need to save the data anywhere... Just maybe be able to print it out or save it to my harddrive?

And yes I already purchase data files from Trackmaster. I have Unlimited so buying tons of .exe's is not a problem.

If you were using Brisnet instead of Trackmaster, I might have been able to do it for you in my database software, e.g. DataEase or Access. Database software can not use single datafiles because there are to many fields, and the data has to be imported into multiple tables. Brisnet has both single and multi datafiles, Trackmaster only has single datafiles. If you want to keep Trackmaster, you would have to find someone that could do it for you with software like basic or any other software that can handle any number of fields.

[RichieP]

Tom
Contact Ted Craven here.

He works exclusively with Trackmaster/Equibase files and is a top notch programmer. Maybe he can help you :)

[Speed Figure]

Email Matt Thomas, he does custom programs. smertsoftware@verizon.net

[Tom-Oh]

Could any of you guys give me an estimate on the price it would cost for someone to create something like this for me?

[BillW]

Could any of you guys give me an estimate on the price it would cost for someone to create something like this for me?

You really should contact the people previously suggested for a quote. They'd be in the best position to provide that.

[BillW]

In the what could go wrong category:

When computers were still prehistoric I tried the same thing with a buddy of mine who had some programmming experience. It took us a few months of real hard work and we finally got it done. We went to Del Mar with the selections and because the program was new and I really didn't like the horses it picked I threw them out. Needless to say it had 4 winners with a couple winning at over 20-1. It didn't pick anything over the next week so we went back in and checked it out. We found out that we were assigning positive values to negative attributes and negative values to positive attributes. :eek:

Are you suggesting that testing a program after it is written is a good thing? ;)

[Tom-Oh]

You really should contact the people previously suggested for a quote. They'd be in the best position to provide that.
I'm just asking for a "round about" price before I have to bother these programmers if I can't afford their service.

[Speed Figure]

Could any of you guys give me an estimate on the price it would cost for someone to create something like this for me?
How can you get an estimate on the price if they don't know what you want? It's going to cost at lease $300 - $500, unless it's very simple.

[dukeofperl]

After taking a quick look at Trackmaster, it appears there are 2 choices for data formats ...

PDF and EXE files for the trackmaster database engine.

From my personal experiences, neither is a particularily convenient candidate for parsing and manipulaition (which is what the OP wants to do) where CSV and XLS are particularily handy and easy to use with parsers.

Just a thought.

[Tom-Oh]

Well, this program would be for Harness Racing... and I've used previous Harness software that has used Trackmaster... Is it that bad?

[dukeofperl]

Well, this program would be for Harness Racing... and I've used previous Harness software that has used Trackmaster... Is it that bad?

No, there is nothing wrong with it. And harness racing (as opposed to flat racing) doesn't matter to a professional programmer. It's simply data, no more, no less.

What does matter is how easy or difficult it is to read and manipulate the data.

If Trackmaster supplies some form of human-readable data that isn't proprietary, laden with copyright or otherwise encumbered with right-to-use standards, then you have half (granted the easy half) of the battle won.

From there you either write your own program or hire some one.

The price you pay is determined by the complexity.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Tom-Oh, be sure you can lay out/describe your method of handicapping - not here in the forum, but for the programmer. You'll need to know exactly what you look for (variables), what are good and/or bad values, and what order of priority or decision weight (not poundage weight) you give each of those items, so they know what priority to give each item over the others and/or split ties of similarly ranked variables.

[formula_2002]

HERE IS A REPORT I PUT TOGETHER USING THE BRIS SINGLE FILE FORMAT DATA FILES.
THE PROCESS IS SIMPLE(ONCE YOU HAVE DONE IT MANY TIMES :) )
IT IS ONE DAY RESULT FOR AQU 01-01-2009 WHERE THE BRIS RACE SHAPE IN THE HORSES LAST RACE IS LESS THAN THE PREVIOUS RACE AND TODAYS ODDS <2-1
i needed to make a new control file for extracting the data from the drf file and then was able to use many of my existing programs to update the drf file with the results file.. total time about 1 1/2 hours.
i can update the new data base with say a months worth of race and results in about 15 minuets.



REPORT FORM C:\TOMOH\TOMOH FOR VAL(N58)<VAL(N59).AND.VAL(N202)<2

N254 N255 N201 N202 N13 wmut pmut smut wins EXPECTED WI dbtfield siz

01-01-2009 AQU 5 1 1.95 TRUE REBEL 5.90 3.20 2.60 1 0.34 1.00
01-01-2009 AQU 6 10 1.75 AMERICAN LAN 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0.36 1.00
01-01-2009 AQU 8 1 .55 ZADA BELLE 3.10 2.50 2.10 1 0.65 1.00
9.00 5.70 4.70 2 1.35 3.00

[ranchwest]

HERE IS A REPORT I PUT TOGETHER USING THE BRIS SINGLE FILE FORMAT DATA FILES.
THE PROCESS IS SIMPLE(ONCE YOU HAVE DONE IT MANY TIMES :) )
IT IS ONE DAY RESULT FOR AQU 01-01-2009 WHERE THE BRIS RACE SHAPE IN THE HORSES LAST RACE IS LESS THAN THE PREVIOUS RACE AND TODAYS ODDS <2-1
i needed to make a new control file for extracting the data from the drf file and then was able to use many of my existing programs to update the drf file with the results file.. total time about 1 1/2 hours.
i can update the new data base with say a months worth of race and results in about 15 minuets.



REPORT FORM C:\TOMOH\TOMOH FOR VAL(N58)<VAL(N59).AND.VAL(N202)<2

N254 N255 N201 N202 N13 wmut pmut smut wins EXPECTED WI dbtfield siz

01-01-2009 AQU 5 1 1.95 TRUE REBEL 5.90 3.20 2.60 1 0.34 1.00
01-01-2009 AQU 6 10 1.75 AMERICAN LAN 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0.36 1.00
01-01-2009 AQU 8 1 .55 ZADA BELLE 3.10 2.50 2.10 1 0.65 1.00
9.00 5.70 4.70 2 1.35 3.00

He's doing standardbreds. The files are not at all like the thoroughbred BRIS single-file format.

[formula_2002]

He's doing standardbreds. The files are not at all like the thoroughbred BRIS single-file format.
yep i know.
I just thought i would try out his thoughts assimilating them with thoroughbred data. yer never know until you try!! :)

[fast4522]

Someone unemployed would maybe do it for $20 per hour, that is the bottom and should cost more depending on how good they are.

[douglasw32]

The handifast program is open source and the source code should be easily adjusted to any data structure, it could at least provide a starting point for opening a file and loading it into a usable string of information.

Of course you would need the trackmaster field definitions.

If I remember correctyl it breaks it out into a muti file format, but you could just add the file load routine in more than once with different parameters then work with the sets that way.

FOr the most part, you could strip out the guts of it and add in your own stuff to manipulate the loaded data and output it however you want.

The BASIC that handi and HH have used is also a free compiler, so you could start learning the process for nothing.

[ranchwest]

The handifast program is open source and the source code should be easily adjusted to any data structure, it could at least provide a starting point for opening a file and loading it into a usable string of information.

Of course you would need the trackmaster field definitions.

If I remember correctyl it breaks it out into a muti file format, but you could just add the file load routine in more than once with different parameters then work with the sets that way.

FOr the most part, you could strip out the guts of it and add in your own stuff to manipulate the loaded data and output it however you want.

The BASIC that handi and HH have used is also a free compiler, so you could start learning the process for nothing.


You are opening CSV files and the TrackMaster files are dBase files.

The key is to use the appropriate programming tool.

[headhawg]

I've opened up TM (DBase III) files in Liberty Basic, the language that Handifast is programmed in. Admittedly it's harder than plain ol' csv files as the format is more challenging. For those interested: dbase III structure (http://www.hist.uib.no/dokkeveien/diverse/dbaseiii.htm)

I suppose you could find a program that converts from dbf to csv but I don't know how reliable that would be.

[formula_2002]

I've opened up TM (DBase III) files in Liberty Basic, the language that Handifast is programmed in. Admittedly it's harder than plain ol' csv files as the format is more challenging. For those interested: dbase III structure (http://www.hist.uib.no/dokkeveien/diverse/dbaseiii.htm)

I suppose you could find a program that converts from dbf to csv but I don't know how reliable that would be.
I've been using Dbase for a very long time.
even before TM hit the market.

i just tried opening the tm drf file by importing it into excel and then saving it as a csv file..it seems to work.

this is what I got

TRACK,RACE,CARD_ID,DISTANCE,GAIT,TODAYS_CLS,TODAYS _CR,PURSE,STARTERS,POSTTIME,RACETEXT1,RACETEXT2,RA CETEXT3,RACEWAGERS,HORSE1,RD_NUM,SEND_TRACK,RACEOR D,DISTANCE_M,WARMUP,BULLETDATE
WDB,1,,1,PACE,See Below,75,17000,10, 7:20,"4 YEAR OLDS & YOUNGER, NW 1 RACE OR $7,500 LIFETIME. NO ALLOWANCES.",,,"DAILY DOUBLE (RACES 1 and 2), EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, TRIACTOR",1,1,WDB,1,1,Red,20091228
WDB,2,,1,PACE,See Below,77,19000,10, 7:40,"4 YEAR OLDS & YOUNGER, NW 2 RACES OR $15,000 LIFETIME.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, TRIACTOR",11,11,WDB,2,1,Blue,20091228
WDB,3,,1,TROT,See Below,91,23000,10, 8:00,"5 YEAR OLDS & YOUNGER, NW 3 (FM 4) RACES OR $55,000 (FM $70,000) LIFETIME.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, TRIACTOR",21,21,WDB,3,1,White,20091228
WDB,4,,1,PACE,See Below,85,17000,10, 8:20,"4 YEAR OLDS, NW $6,000 LAST 6 STARTS OR NW $12,000 LAST 10 STARTS. AE: OPT. CLM. $20,000.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, START OF PICK 4, TRIACTOR",31,31,WDB,4,1,Green,20091228
WDB,5,,1,PACE,See Below,87,23000,10, 8:40,"5 YEAR OLDS & YOUNGER, NW 3 RACES OR $50,000 LIFETIME. AE: 3 YEAR OLDS, CLAIMING $50,000. PLUS ALLOWANCES.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, SUPERFECTA, TRIACTOR",41,41,WDB,5,1,Black,20091228
WDB,6,,1,TROT,See Below,91,26000,10, 9:00,"NW 4 (FM 5) RACES OR $100,000 (FM $120,000) LIFETIME.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, TRIACTOR",51,51,WDB,6,1,Yellow,20091228
WDB,7,,1,PACE,See Below,83,21000,10, 9:20,"5 YEAR OLDS & YOUNGER, NW 2 RACES OR $30,600 LIFETIME. AE: 3 YEAR OLDS, CLAIMING $25,000. PLUS ALLOWANCES.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, TRIACTOR",61,61,WDB,7,1,Pink,20091228
WDB,8,,1,PACE,See Below,85,60000,11, 9:40,"NIAGARA PACING SERIES - FINAL - 3 YEAR OLD FILLIES. NON-WINNERS $50,000 LIFETIME AS OF OCTOBER 31, 2009. Also Eligible: ANOTHER DAWN",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, SUPERFECTA, TRIACTOR",71,71,WDB,8,1,Gray,20091228
WDB,9,,1,PACE,See Below,87,19000,10,10:00,"4 YEAR OLDS, NW $15,100 LAST 6 STARTS OR NW $23,000 LAST 10 STARTS. AE: OPT. CLM. $30,000. AE: NW $3,500 LAST 3 STARTS.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, START OF PICK 4, TRIACTOR",82,82,WDB,9,1,Purple,20091228
WDB,10,,1,PACE,See Below,91,19000,10,10:20,"4 YEAR OLDS, NW $15,100 LAST 6 STARTS OR NW $23,000 LAST 10 STARTS. AE: OPT. CLM. $30,000. AE: NW $3,500 LAST 3 STARTS.",,,"EXACTOR, START OF PICK 3, TRIACTOR",92,92,WDB,10,1,Blue-Red,20091228
WDB,11,,1,PACE,See Below,84,21000,9,10:40,"5 YEAR OLDS & YOUNGER, NW 2 RACES OR $30,600 LIFETIME. AE: 3 YEAR OLDS, CLAIMING $25,000. PLUS ALLOWANCES.",,,"LATE DOUBLE (RACES 11 and 12), EXACTOR, TRIACTOR",102,102,WDB,11,1,Light Blue,20091228
WDB,12,,1,PACE,See Below,87,17000,10,11:00,"4 YEAR OLDS, NW $6,000 LAST 6 STARTS OR NW $12,000 LAST 10 STARTS. AE: OPT. CLM. $20,000.",,,"EXACTOR, SUPERFECTA, TRIACTOR",111,111,WDB,12,1,,20091228

[headhawg]

Well, then they must have changed their format as the TM files that I have still have the headers in front of the data just like a typical dbase iii file. I can change the row where the import starts to eliminate the headers but I can't make the data come out clean as you posted.

[formula_2002]

Well, then they must have changed their format as the TM files that I have still have the headers in front of the data just like a typical dbase iii file. I can change the row where the import starts to eliminate the headers but I can't make the data come out clean as you posted.
I'm using dbase 5. that might mean something.

[raybo]

Use Excel spreadsheets, it's easier to learn than a programming language and you have complete control of the data and what you do with it. I recommend you check out my free spreadsheet on the website in my signature, then if you're interested, switch to Bris files and get going. Holler if you need help.

[ranchwest]

I've opened up TM (DBase III) files in Liberty Basic, the language that Handifast is programmed in. Admittedly it's harder than plain ol' csv files as the format is more challenging. For those interested: dbase III structure (http://www.hist.uib.no/dokkeveien/diverse/dbaseiii.htm)

I suppose you could find a program that converts from dbf to csv but I don't know how reliable that would be.

IMO, the tool to use is xHarbour. It is specifically geared to using this file type and produces 32-bit C code so there is no problem running on the newer platforms.

I've been working with dBase (xBase) files for 20 years professionally and for quite a few years with horse racing data.

[headhawg]

I'm using dbase 5. that might mean something.No, I just misread your post. I thought that you were importing straight into Excel and then saving as a csv. But you open in dbase and then resave the file. That would certainly be one way to go, but I am not familiar with dbase so I don't know what the programming capabilities are.

There are a few approaches to this but I'm guessing that Tom-Oh does not have much in the way of any programming experience. But I think that Speed Figure is pretty much in the ballpark with his custom programming estimate. The cost is probably an eye-opener for most but coding is very time consuming.

[ranchwest]

Use Excel spreadsheets, it's easier to learn than a programming language and you have complete control of the data and what you do with it. I recommend you check out my free spreadsheet on the website in my signature, then if you're interested, switch to Bris files and get going. Holler if you need help.

While I'm glad that you are able to accomplish your required tasks with Excel, I think "complete control" is a bit of a stretch.

For me, one very big drawback to Excel is that it is difficult to follow the flow from one step to the next. It is much, much easier for me to find my way around in a program.

[ranchwest]

No, I just misread your post. I thought that you were importing straight into Excel and then saving as a csv. But you open in dbase and then resave the file. That would certainly be one way to go, but I am not familiar with dbase so I don't know what the programming capabilities are.

There are a few approaches to this but I'm guessing that Tom-Oh does not have much in the way of any programming experience. But I think that Speed Figure is pretty much in the ballpark with his custom programming estimate. The cost is probably an eye-opener for most but coding is very time consuming.

The most time consuming aspect of programming is being unable to re-use code. If it's already done, it can be pretty easy.

[raybo]

While I'm glad that you are able to accomplish your required tasks with Excel, I think "complete control" is a bit of a stretch.

For me, one very big drawback to Excel is that it is difficult to follow the flow from one step to the next. It is much, much easier for me to find my way around in a program.

I'm, not trying to argue but I have never been unable to do anything I wanted to do in Excel. As for flow, I start at what I want as a final product and work backwards, just like programmers often do.

[Greyfox]

I'm, not trying to argue but I have never been unable to do anything I wanted to do in Excel. .

I agree and I use an even more primitive Lotus 1-2-3.

[fast4522]

I would dump any thought of using Trackmaster files, zero value if your talking content or nice extras.

[ranchwest]

I would dump any thought of using Trackmaster files, zero value if your talking content or nice extras.

I think he's already using TrackMaster files. He just wants the computer to do what he does manually.

[ranchwest]

I'm, not trying to argue but I have never been unable to do anything I wanted to do in Excel. As for flow, I start at what I want as a final product and work backwards, just like programmers often do.

By flow, I am referring to reading each program step in sequence.

[raybo]

By flow, I am referring to reading each program step in sequence.

Well, I don't program so there aren't any programming steps to read.

However, I insert comments in my spreadsheets letting me know what each section of the spreadsheet is doing, I guess that's similar to what you are saying. Of course, there are times when I need to look at something that isn't covered by a comment, in that case, I just select the cell(s), to get at the formula, then just work backward from there.

[ranchwest]

Well, I don't program so there aren't any programming steps to read.

However, I insert comments in my spreadsheets letting me know what each section of the spreadsheet is doing, I guess that's similar to what you are saying. Of course, there are times when I need to look at something that isn't covered by a comment, in that case, I just select the cell(s), to get at the formula, then just work backward from there.

Your formula are your programming steps. And, for each one you want to see you select the cell. That was my point.

[raybo]

Your formula are your programming steps. And, for each one you want to see you select the cell. That was my point.

Gotcha!

Well, then you have the macros, most are recorded but occasionally I have to modify one or write one with VBA, of course, there are hundreds of sites where you can ask how to accomplish something with VBA and someone always knows how to get it done. If I want to see the code for a macro button I just right click the button, select "assign macro", then "edit, and up pops the code. Or just open "macros" and scroll to the macro you want, select it, and "edit", and there's the code.

It ain't rocket science, just a little math/algebra/logic.

[ranchwest]

Anyone ever hear from Tom on this? I wonder what the purpose of this thread was.

[traynor]

Someone unemployed would maybe do it for $20 per hour, that is the bottom and should cost more depending on how good they are.

If you are hiring a programmer, avoid hourly rates like the plague. If you know exactly what you want, the programmer will create a "project matrix" that includes exactly what you specify, for an exact price.

Avoid the song-and-dance routine of "guaranteed done to your satisfaction" with open-ended pricing--unless you have very deep pockets. There are a lot of excellent programmers out there willing to do top-quality work for reasonable prices. If you know exactly what you want you can put it on O-Desk for bids.

Harness applications are much easier to code than thoroughbred applications, because most of the distance adjustments are eliminated.

[Greybase]

Tom-Oh, be sure you can lay out/describe your method of handicapping - not here in the forum, but for the programmer. You'll need to know exactly what you look for (variables), what are good and/or bad values, and what order of priority or decision weight (not poundage weight) you give each of those items, so they know what priority to give each item over the others and/or split ties of similarly ranked variables.
I work as a programmer by day (when I'm not programming my racing stuff at night :) ... and StatMan Steve gets a gold star for at least recommending a System Analysis. Before you even get into file formats, or coding... sit down and design it first. One way to start is by thinking in terms of Output - what do you want the Report to look like? Software designers use things like flowcharts and use case scenarios. There is a tool in MS Office called Visio, that provides all the boxes and diagram tools. Otherwise get a piece of paper and draw your own boxes!

Really there are so many good horse handicapping packages out there - I don't know why anyone would start from scratch. :confused:

[KingChas]

Really there are so many good horse handicapping packages out there - I don't know why anyone would start from scratch. :confused:

Why not?
If it is your personal program(figs) etc. ,It is unique.
All bought programs need to be interpetid correctly,but the same figs..etc show to all who purchased.
I understand why Tom wants his own.
Many of us still need to use pencil and paper somewhat.I had my program set up on the old Commodore computer,but since using windows,excel etc.,cannot write it.
Thus I have a computer printout set up for program,but have to enter final figs by hand.
There is nothing in the world after having a successful day,knowing you were the only person in the world (sans wife or close freinds)that had access to these unique figs.

[Dave Schwartz]

If you are hiring a programmer, avoid hourly rates like the plague. If you know exactly what you want, the programmer will create a "project matrix" that includes exactly what you specify, for an exact price.


Avoid the song-and-dance routine of "guaranteed done to your satisfaction" with open-ended pricing--unless you have very deep pockets. There are a lot of excellent programmers out there willing to do top-quality work for reasonable prices. If you know exactly what you want you can put it on O-Desk for bids


As some one who has spent over 30 years as a computer professional, I can tell you that this is the surest way to failure in a project that I know of.

While it sounds like a great idea on the surface, the above bolded statement is the root problem.

Don't misunderstand me... I quote jobs like this all the time for custom software within my own application... little tiny jobs that I estimate will take (say) 3 hours I compute at 4.5 hours and offer that as the price. The margin keeps me safe. (Of course I communicate this to the user.)

Often I quote jobs as X hours at Y rate per hour, and put a maximum on the hours, agreeing to eat anything that goes over. I can do this because I am not writing an entire program - just a small add-in. Even if I am wrong, what is it going to cost me? An extra hour or two of work that I don't get paid for? Big deal.

I do recall quoting 4 hours on a job that took me more like forty hours. When that happens, you just do it with a smile and move on.



Over the last 10 years I have done maybe 150 custom programming jobs within my software. Not a single one has resulted in a dispute. Why? because I am very careful to make sure the purchaser of hours gets what he wants. This is s small industry - too small to destroy relationships.

That's why the couple of guys on this forum who do custom programming are probably worth trusting - if they treat a customer unfairly they'll lose the other potential customers from this forum.

However, it is entirely different when you are hiring a programmer that has no reputation within your known industry or network to maintain. The "job list" sites are a perfect example of this. You just do not know what you are getting and have very little recourse if it goes wrong.

The biggest problem is putting down on paper exactly what you want. See, nobody knows exactly what they want. Now, don't misunderstand me. If you can produce a document that describes to the n-th degree what you want - that means screens, functions everything - a complete set of specs - then you can put it out for bid. But do not expect that the end product will not need tweaking and don't be surprised if the programmer wants to be paid for those tweaks.


What most people think of as "a simple system" might be several hundred hours of programming. I can tell you that it took me about 40 hours to get the HDW import built in my software (including fully debugging it). Admittedly, that is a tough file as it is binary (as opposed to comma-delimited). The excellent documentation helped.

My point is that when you begin with BRIS data, which are large, comma delimited files, you might have 10-20 hours just to get the data in. Maybe another 5-10 hours just to find some bugs. Heck, how long does it take to create a data dictionary with around 1,000 items or more? Just the typing of the data dictionary might take 3-5 hours!


The point here is that it is much easier to add what you want to an existing, working program than it is to write one from scratch.


Handiman and Doug - and I admit to getting confused about who is doing what - anyway, these two guys (I think) are both writing open source approaches. I applaud them for what they are doing. I think they are working on two different packages but I could be wrong.

The approach they are taking is one that would lend itself well to customization of the existing software, especially once it becomes stable (meaning not so many changes).

The first place to look for a fair deal would be with one of these guys. At the least, even if you have some pretty outlandish ideas, the data import is already built. In addition, these guys have shown to be actively pursuing improvement. Many ideas you might have could be added - perhaps without cost - in the cause of "improving the software" which appears to be their goal.


Finally, what is a fair hourly rate to pay? Well, in America I would expect to pay a minimum of $70 per hour for a professional programmer. Oh, I can hear the gasps from the audience already but consider that a handy man (i.e. a guy that makes small improvements to your house) is typically charging that much these days.

Specialty (or niche) programmers might expect a premium of 50% to 100% above that figure. Horse racing will certainly qualify as a "niche." Why so much? Well, imagine how difficult it is to find a "professional" programmer who understands the horse racing game; even just one that knows that there is such a thing as a "claiming race." By comparison, engineering and accounting experts are a dime a dozen.

However, if you search really hard, you may find a programmer that will work for almost nothing (relatively speaking). I recently found a programmer who lives in a highly depressed area of the U.S. willing to work for a much lower rate on reasonable-length projects. This guy is thrilled to get a steady income even though he doesn't make a big hourly rate. (Perhaps the auto workers could learn this?) I recently used him for a difficult but necessary add-on (an automatic betting interface) to my program that I just couldn't get to work. (Turned out to be old/bad documentation was at the root of the problem.) The problem took 15 hours of his time to solve. (I had already put in 50 trying to solve it myself.)

Just do the math... if you are starting from scratch, you might easily have 10 hours just to get the data file read into the program. At a bargain-basement price of $30 per hour, that's $300 and you haven't really begun the meat of the program yet.


In closing, permit me to say it is caveat emptor with regards to off-shore programmers that you get for those silly rates like $5 per hour. You think it's tough explaining to that Dell tech in India what your problem is? Imagine trying to teach him how a speed rating is calculated or what a par time is.


Kind regards to all,
Dave Schwartz

[Jeff P]

Having just completed an add to JCapper for importing and managing HDW binary files... and having done 100's of custom projects over the years... as well as a dozen or more web enabled projects for a few Fortune 500 companies...

I'll second pretty much everything Dave just said in his post. :ThmbUp:


-jp

.

[raybo]

It appears that Tom quit on his own thread. But, it appears that the main obstacle he has is trying to use Trackmaster data. Does Trackmaster have some really good proprietary figures or something? If not, I really don't understand why he is opposed to switching to a data file that is comma-delimited, then his opportunities for getting a program written would be greatly expanded.

I agree with Dave, Doug's/Handi's program, being open source would probably be the quickest and easiest way to go.

[Ted Craven]

Does Trackmaster have some really good proprietary figures or something? If not, I really don't understand why he is opposed to switching to a data file that is comma-delimited...

Although redundant, FWIW I too will concur with what Dave explained and what Jeff seconded. I have been a professional software developer for 25+ years, and those are the range of rates I've seen for North American based, enterprise level, what to speak of, specialized contract programming/analysis development. And don't get me started on working with outsourced (Indian) development teams...

Re 'why TrackMaster' (and see Tom-Oh's post #16), 2 words: Harness Data.

Ted

[ranchwest]

I offered Tom a preliminary estimate of dirt cheap and I never heard back. This is something I've seen hundreds of times.

[gm10]

You are opening CSV files and the TrackMaster files are dBase files.

The key is to use the appropriate programming tool.

The TM files are unzipped into foxpro files.
It's fairly straightforward to parse the data and store them in the db of your choice.

[ranchwest]

The TM files are unzipped into foxpro files.
It's fairly straightforward to parse the data and store them in the db of your choice.
It was my understanding that he didn't need a db. Read the file, read his mind, print a report. Could be easy. Or not. Guess I'll never know.

[eddie10]

Tom go to elance.com register for $10.00 and submit your request and explain everything you want done and providers will bid on job. I,ve done a couple of programs and they are great. They are reasonably priced. check it out. I would ask for providers with horseracing experience.

[traynor]

Dave Schwartz wrote:
The biggest problem is putting down on paper exactly what you want. See, nobody knows exactly what they want. Now, don't misunderstand me. If you can produce a document that describes to the n-th degree what you want - that means screens, functions everything - a complete set of specs - then you can put it out for bid. But do not expect that the end product will not need tweaking and don't be surprised if the programmer wants to be paid for those tweaks.


What most people think of as "a simple system" might be several hundred hours of programming. I can tell you that it took me about 40 hours to get the HDW import built in my software (including fully debugging it). Admittedly, that is a tough file as it is binary (as opposed to comma-delimited). The excellent documentation helped.


Therein lies the tale. Unless you can explicitly define in detail exactly what you want, you are hiring an analyst and designer, not a programmer. That is a fundamentally different thing. I agree completely with your statements, which in no way conflict with my suggestion to put the job out for bids.

If you don't know exactly what you want, you should be looking for an analyst or designer, not a programmer. The programming part is easy. The tough part is the explicit design that the programmer needs to start coding.

That will become clear when you try to put the job out for bids. No programmer in his or her right mind would consider starting work on a project with no clearly defined scope, deliverables, and requirements matrix, unless you agree to pay them on an hourly basis on an essentially open-ended project.

[Dave Schwartz]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

Dave, Ted, ranchwest, et al,

No one has said anything about source code ownership.

What is your policy or experience when it comes to the source code for projects? Do you supply it if you are the developer? Do you expect it when you are the buyer?

[Dave Schwartz]

As the purchaser, I say, "Yes." As the programmer I say "no." <G>

By default, the programmer owns it.

There are just a few of practical issues with the source code to consider...

1. Is it important for you to own the rights to the source code or is it just important that the programmer doesn't?

That is, are you concerned that the you won't be able to hire someone else to work on the project or are you concerned that the programmer will take your program and begin selling it?


2. What happens if the programmer has the right to use the internal coding?
In other words, the programmer might have some useful routines within the software (like a BRIS import) that could be useful to him but will have no negative impact on you.

3. Demand exclusive rights to the source code up front then use varying degrees of rights as price negotiation points.
In other words, can the programmer use your ideas somewhere else? If so, that should cause an immediate reduction in price.

When someone asks me about custom programming, I ask, "Is this exclusive to your installation of HSH or can I give it to everyone?" (That assumes I think enough of our users will benefit to make it worthwhile.)

If I can add it to HSH then there is an automatic price reduction of at least 1/2 the cost per hour and, in the case of a loyal customer (or a very good idea), it may well be free.

Enough for now.

Dave

[DJofSD]

Thanks, Dave. You beat me to the punch with some of the issues in your reply.

[ranchwest]

Dave, Ted, ranchwest, et al,

No one has said anything about source code ownership.

What is your policy or experience when it comes to the source code for projects? Do you supply it if you are the developer? Do you expect it when you are the buyer?
Dave pretty much answered this. There's no way I'd sign away rights to fundamental programming routines, but I would be negotiable on application specific algorithms.

[DJofSD]

What about vaulting source code?

[Ted Craven]

Dave, Ted, ranchwest, et al,

No one has said anything about source code ownership.

What is your policy or experience when it comes to the source code for projects? Do you supply it if you are the developer? Do you expect it when you are the buyer?
For commercial work (for hire) over the years, it's been pretty much customer owns the code, I own the expertise gained (i.e. customers have paid me to learn on the job how to be a good analyst/programmer/documentarist).

In the horse-racing software domain, well I have done a few customizations of RDSS so far, but the algorithms really only function in the context of the overall framework of the larger app itself, so the customized code was fairly useless outside of the framework.

On the other hand, re right-to-use, if I've judged the add-on to be valuable to the general body of users and the customer agrees, it's free. If it is not to be publicly available (i.e. by Non-Disclosure Agreement) but the ideas sounded intriguing and at least I got to use them for my own account, I've taken on a couple of such tasks also for free. If the project sounded dubious or of unknown value, I charged a modest rate to gain some knowledge (e.g. more tote analysis ideas). I do enjoy quoting my former full market rates to make annoying requests go away...

Bottom line - for add-ins to a proprietary framework like RDSS (or I assume like HSH, or other major apps) I don't see how source code would be very useful to the customer (and no one has asked me yet).

Ted

[ranchwest]

A significant point is whether the buyer wants copyright or some sort of useage license. I do consider a non-disclosure license. I don't sell copyright unless I'm a permanent employee.