Mott to replace Frankel for Juddmonte

[Moyers Pond]

Well I think that was the best choice available. It is good to see Juddmonte still will have a major presence in the states.

[Fingal]

PR move to go to a " name ". When Frankel was in New York, who took care of & oversaw the string that was in California ? Sure Frankel was on the phone telling Ascanio what he wanted, but who actually carried it out ? When the one of the many stars in the stable maybe turned an ankle or whatever, who took care of it ? Who dealt daily with the help, the jocks & their agents ? How long was he the assistant for Frankel, a guy that would get rid of jocks or anyone that he didn't approve of without a 2nd thought ?

It's their stable, & they can do what they want.
But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Moyers Pond]

PR move to go to a " name ". When Frankel was in New York, who took care of & oversaw the string that was in California ? Sure Frankel was on the phone telling Ascanio what he wanted, but who actually carried it out ? When the one of the many stars in the stable maybe turned an ankle or whatever, who took care of it ? Who dealt daily with the help, the jocks & their agents ? How long was he the assistant for Frankel, a guy that would get rid of jocks or anyone that he didn't approve of without a 2nd thought ?

It's their stable, & they can do what they want.
But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

You can't really believe these guys are on par with Mott. Those guys always had Frankel to go to with problems.

These guys need to go out on their own with some claiming/allowance level horses before being trusted with the best horses in the world. You have to prove yourself with decent ones before someone gives you great ones.

[Grits]

You can't really believe these guys are on par with Mott. Those guys always had Frankel to go to with problems.

These guys need to go out on their own with some claiming/allowance level horses before being trusted with the best horses in the world. You have to prove yourself with decent ones before someone gives you great ones.

Since you know so much.

Tell this to Frankel's former assistant, CHAD BROWN, bud!

[Dahoss9698]

Humberto Ascanio will still be training Midships, although all of the rest are going to Mott. Maybe they are just kind of seeing how Ascanio will do on his own before giving them all to him.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/109626.html

"Bill Mott will be our number-one trainer," said O'Rourke. He added that Juddmonte is "down to a pretty small string already" in the United States.

[bisket]

for turf racing you want your runners in california more than other parts of the country. with mott that's not really possible. i thought they would stay with humberto, but hey i'm just a poor little handicapper trying to make my way in this world.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Since you know so much.

Tell this to Frankel's former assistant, CHAD BROWN, bud!

Chad Brown went out on his own. He's now proven, just what MP suggested. There are plenty of assistant trainers that have been great asst trainers then flopped on their own.

[Dahoss9698]

for turf racing you want your runners in california more than other parts of the country. with mott that's not really possible. i thought they would stay with humberto, but hey i'm just a poor little handicapper trying to make my way in this world.

Why would you want to be in California for turf racing? And did you read the article? Mott will have a string at Santa Anita this winter and he is thinking about keeping a string after that.

[Moyers Pond]

Since you know so much.

Tell this to Frankel's former assistant, CHAD BROWN, bud!

You mean the Chad Brown that went out on his own and got some maiden/allowance types and proved himself? Last I checked he won his breeders cup race with a claimer.

Thanks for making my point.

You don't get the good Juddmonte horses with absolutely no experience as a trainer. In fact, you don't even get them with a small resume like Chad Brown. The reason Juddmonte chose Frankel was because he proved himself for decades first.

These guys can go out on their own and prove themselves.

[Grits]

You mean the Chad Brown that went out on his own and got some maiden/allowance types and proved himself? Last I checked he won his breeders cup race with a claimer.

Thanks for making my point.

You don't get the good Juddmonte horses with absolutely no experience as a trainer. In fact, you don't even get them with a small resume like Chad Brown. The reason Juddmonte chose Frankel was because he proved himself for decades first.

These guys can go out on their own and prove themselves.

You started this thread without a link, choosing instead, one sentence of proclamation. Failing to note that Midships would remain in the care of Ascanio, and as DaHoss pointed out in the story, O'Rourke stating, the stable is down considerably in number. The large presence not being here.

I'd have a hard time claiming Humberto Ascanio as someone lacking trainer experience, or as someone who hasn't "proved himself," (lol) regardless, whether he holds a license in his own name or not.

Working as an assistant for Frankel for 36 years . . . .

Since 1973. 36 years is a mighty long time. Amazed someone would question whether this man's earned the qualifications to train well bred horses, or cheap bred. Doesn't matter. And don't care who is paying the feed bill. How much more knowledge might this man need to catalogue in order to train Juddmonte's greats, or So'nSo's 20K claimers?

Hoping to see him compete against Bill Mott all afternoon and respecting Mott greatly, still I'd love to see Ascanio kick his butt sideways.

Generally speaking, in this sport, people still like to see great things happen for those who've worked hard, maybe this is what Fingal was pointing to.

Again, that's 36 years next to Frankel, everyday!

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/11/frankel-assistant-not-worried.html

"It didn't take long for Ascanio, who went to work as a groom for Frankel in 1973, to climb his way up the ladder in the Hall of Famer's barn. He was promoted to assistant about a year later, but not before some serious thought."

[Tom]

You mean the Chad Brown that went out on his own and got some maiden/allowance types and proved himself? Last I checked he won his breeders cup race with a claimer.



I'd say that pretty much proved himself. :lol:

[Moyers Pond]

You started this thread without a link, choosing instead, one sentence of proclamation. Failing to note that Midships would remain in the care of Ascanio, and as DaHoss pointed out in the story, O'Rourke stating, the stable is down considerably in number. The large presence not being here.

I'd have a hard time claiming Humberto Ascanio as someone lacking trainer experience, or as someone who hasn't "proved himself," (lol) regardless, whether he holds a license in his own name or not.

Working as an assistant for Frankel for 36 years . . . .

Since 1973. 36 years is a mighty long time. Amazed someone would question whether this man's earned the qualifications to train well bred horses, or cheap bred. Doesn't matter. And don't care who is paying the feed bill. How much more knowledge might this man need to catalogue in order to train Juddmonte's greats, or So'nSo's 20K claimers?

Hoping to see him compete against Bill Mott all afternoon and respecting Mott greatly, still I'd love to see Ascanio kick his butt sideways.

Generally speaking, in this sport, people still like to see great things happen for those who've worked hard, maybe this is what Fingal was pointing to.

Again, that's 36 years next to Frankel, everyday!

http://www.insidesocal.com/horseracing/2009/11/frankel-assistant-not-worried.html

"It didn't take long for Ascanio, who went to work as a groom for Frankel in 1973, to climb his way up the ladder in the Hall of Famer's barn. He was promoted to assistant about a year later, but not before some serious thought."

All this say is that Humberto Ascanio is a good assistant. The world is full of people that are good assistants that go out on their own and fail.

Last I checked more assistants that go out on their own FAIL than succeed.

Mott is already proven he is a great trainer. All Humberto Ascanio has proven is he can do well what Frankel told him to do.

[joanied]

In agree with Grits...well said, by the way. I am a fan of Mott's, and have no problem with him getting the horses, but not all of them (sans Midships)...and I would bet our farm, that Bobby is up there on a cloud and is good and pissed off about this.
Over 35 years of education from the Master gives Humberto, IMO, the goods to be a top class trainer...and he deserves the chance to proove it...I hope there are owners that know what Humberto can do...and give him nice horses to train...and, IMO, shame on Juddmonte for taking them all away from Humberto...and IMO, it has something more to it than Humberto's being an assistant. You all must realize, that if Humberto keeps these horses, or, for that matter, gets other horses to train...he'll be doing it just like Bobby did...and that is a good thing.

[Spalding No!]

...and IMO, it has something more to it than Humberto's being an assistant.

I think I know what you mean....those people...can't trust 'em.

By the way, no love for Eduardo Inda?

[tribecaagent]

I think I know what you mean....those people...can't trust 'em.

By the way, no love for Eduardo Inda?

Eduardo Inda was Ron McAnaly's assistant. No relation to Frankel.

I feel Mott was not a wise choice; he's lost a step. To me, Cristophe Clement or even Dick Manndella would've been smarter.

[Dahoss9698]

Eduardo Inda was Ron McAnaly's assistant. No relation to Frankel.

I feel Mott was not a wise choice; he's lost a step. To me, Cristophe Clement or even Dick Manndella would've been smarter.

Mott has lost a step? How so?

[tribecaagent]

Over the last five years, a highly profitable angle has been 1st time claim from Mott. Doesn't have to be "Tricky" Dutrow claiming either.

If he's training for me, I'd want "the lemon dry" before I lay em' in.

[Dahoss9698]

Over the last five years, a highly profitable angle has been 1st time claim from Mott. Doesn't have to be "Tricky" Dutrow claiming either.

If he's training for me, I'd want "the lemon dry" before I lay em' in.

Any examples of this?

[tribecaagent]

Any examples of this?

I'm not going to give away the farm, my friend. Trust me, it exists.

[Dahoss9698]

I'm not going to give away the farm, my friend. Trust me, it exists.

Give away the farm? You said it's a profitable angle. I'm just looking for an example of it. How are you giving away the farm by giving a past example of something?

[aaron]

Over the last five years, a highly profitable angle has been 1st time claim from Mott. Doesn't have to be "Tricky" Dutrow claiming either.

If he's training for me, I'd want "the lemon dry" before I lay em' in.
M

That angle has been around for a while. Mott doesn't want these horses,he is not a claiming trainer. These horses are let go to make room for horses that have a future as stake horses. How many of these claimed horses became GR1 or 2 winners ?

[tribecaagent]

Give away the farm? You said it's a profitable angle. I'm just looking for an example of it. How are you giving away the farm by giving a past example of something?

I'm handing you a profitable angle. Don't push it.

[Dahoss9698]

I'm handing you a profitable angle. Don't push it.

It's not that I don't believe you. I just like to see an example of something, before I believe it. I'm weird like that. If you don't have any, just say so.

[matthewsiv]

Who Prince Khalid Abdullah gives his horses to is up to him.
He would want someone who has a proven record or somebody he or his team know very well and is respected by his peers.
He is the best of the Arabs (in my opinion) and very rarely changes trainers.
Bill Mott is a known trainer who will replace Bobby Frankel as a name but will never fill his shoes.
The only assistant that I know of the Prince using is Roger Charlton who was assistant to Jeremy Tree.
I do not believe that they have a full time racing manager in the USA as they do in Europe with Teddy Beckett (Lord Grimthorpe).

[NTamm1215]

I'm handing you a profitable angle. Don't push it.

In the last five years, horses making their first start off a claim from Mott are 15-73 with an ROI of $1.93. I hope you picked your spots carefully.

In just 2009 the record is 6-22 with an ROI of $2.08.

NT

[Spalding No!]

In the last five years, horses making their first start off a claim from Mott are 15-73 with an ROI of $1.93. I hope you picked your spots carefully.

In just 2009 the record is 6-22 with an ROI of $2.08.

NT

Shhhh! You're gonna give away the outhouse.

[joanied]

I think I know what you mean....those people...can't trust 'em.

By the way, no love for Eduardo Inda?

I don't think I'd want to say more than that...but they didn't even give Humberto a chance to proove himself.

[gales0678]

Any examples of this?


Mesiques Approval to Wolfson

[Stillriledup]

I'm not going to give away the farm, my friend. Trust me, it exists.

This makes no sense.

[Stillriledup]

Humberto was an asst for so long who's to say he wants to be a head guy? If he wanted to go out on his own don't you think he would have done it already?

[Dahoss9698]

Mesiques Approval to Wolfson

He wasn't claimed. Not to mention Wolfson has shown an amazing ability to improve off pretty much any trainer.

[gales0678]

mott has him and can't win , and wolfson wins a breeders cup with him

[Stillriledup]

mott has him and can't win , and wolfson wins a breeders cup with him

Maybe the water in florida is better.

[tribecaagent]

This makes no sense.

I could care less if my statements make any sense to you. I'm giving you an angle that has produced a positive roi.

On point, Mott has been a guy you can claim/acquire from and improve upon. How about Court Vision? "Tricky" Dutrow takes over and this horse wins a gr.1. Nuff said.

[Dahoss9698]

mott has him and can't win , and wolfson wins a breeders cup with him

Wolfson improved nearly every horse that Gann transfered from Pletcher to him. His nickname isn't Marty Miracle for nothing.

[Stillriledup]

I could care less if my statements make any sense to you. I'm giving you an angle that has produced a positive roi.

On point, Mott has been a guy you can claim/acquire from and improve upon. How about Court Vision? "Tricky" Dutrow takes over and this horse wins a gr.1. Nuff said.


Its makes no sense to anyone. If you wanted to not give away the farm, why talk about your angle in the first place? Just trying to understand what you mean, no need to have a cow.

[Dahoss9698]

I could care less if my statements make any sense to you. I'm giving you an angle that has produced a positive roi.

On point, Mott has been a guy you can claim/acquire from and improve upon. How about Court Vision? "Tricky" Dutrow takes over and this horse wins a gr.1. Nuff said.

The stats NTamm presented before show it hasn't produced a positive roi the last 5 years.

Didn't Mott win a grade 1 with Court Vision?

[Spalding No!]

Its makes no sense to anyone. If you wanted to not give away the farm, why talk about your angle in the first place? Just trying to understand what you mean, no need to have a cow.

Can't you read? He has a farm to run.

[Stillriledup]

Can't you read? He has a farm to run.

:lol:

[tribecaagent]

Its makes no sense to anyone. If you wanted to not give away the farm, why talk about your angle in the first place? Just trying to understand what you mean, no need to have a cow.

Amateur. Good luck.

[Stillriledup]

Amateur. Good luck.

:sleeping:

[NTamm1215]

Amateur. Good luck.

So have you just cashed a few tickets on horses claimed from Mott and are remembering those? Because the stats really don't back up this angle as the panacea for horseplayers looking for an angle.

NT

[joanied]

Humberto was an asst for so long who's to say he wants to be a head guy? If he wanted to go out on his own don't you think he would have done it already?

Maybe, but maybe not...maybe he was just happy to be Bobby's right hand guy...and you could be right...that Humberto doesn't want to be a trainer...I guess we don't know at all, do we...but I wish that they would have mentioned in the article about this, wether or not Humberto had been offered Bobby's horses, and declined...I suppose there is a good chance that Juddmonte did speak to Humberto about all this first...I hope so...
but, it's a done deal, so, speaking for myself, I just hope that Humberto will be happy regardless...hell, maybe the man just wants to retire now. I just feel sad for everyone that worked for Bobby a number of years, and wish them all the best....especially Humberto.

[WinterTriangle]

I'd have a hard time claiming Humberto Ascanio as someone lacking trainer experience, or as someone who hasn't "proved himself," (lol) regardless, whether he holds a license in his own name or not.

Working as an assistant for Frankel for 36 years . . . .

There are plenty of so-called trainers out there who couldn't shine his shoes.

I agree with you, Grits.

[NY BRED]

Seems to me this Barn would want to appoint a trainer
well versed in synthetics as they are aiming at California
(unless Billy disagrees).

Love Mott on the Grass, not really on dirt, and synthetics
becomes a real challenge , at least inmho.

[Stevie Belmont]

Bill Mott is a world class horseman.

[castaway01]

Never thought I'd even see a thread knocking Mott as a horseman. Wow.

And thanks for that profitable secret angle that isn't, you know, profitable.

[joanied]

I heard from a very reliable source, one that is close to Bobby's barn...Humberto is happy to have Midships, and hopes to get a few more horses...he is dealing with the barn changes pretty well.

I guess time will sort it all out. I hope that Juddmonte will give him more horses, and he does have some from other owners.

He was named the 'Trainer of the Meet'...and that makes me very happy! Ventura was named 'Horse of the Meet'...Bobby would have been so proud.

[toussaud]

true story:

I co founded and run an internet web development firm. About 5 months ago I had a client that had a pretty nice sized job that we were going to work on for him. We did all the prep work and then soon poof. he just disappeared. I was upset but it happens, you deal with it.

Well it turns out, one of my better programmers, who was talking to the client from time to time, told him he could do the work at his normal rate, outside the company. This "saved" the client about 35% of the budget.

Well long story short, 3 weeks ago, the programmer came clean to me and told me what happened (I had my suspecions) and basically begged me to help him turn the project around becuase he coudlnt' deal with the client, now the client was threatening to sue him becuase of breach of contract.

I didn't fire him, because quite honestly, i can't fire someonef or doing something I would have done as well. Plus, I knew he was a good programmer but I also knew the guy does not have what it takes to deal with the clients we deal with.

I'm an above avg programmer myself, but I have guys on my staff that could (and do) run circles around what I'm capable of doing. But technical skill, and in this case, horsemanship is only part of the equation.

The avg horse owner is well off, usually a business owner, used to getting his own way, more often than not clueless about horses and horseman ship, and all want to win the kentucky derby, 3YO or not. The avg owner doesn't understand you told him to buy this yearling for 150k and now you want to dump him in a 20k claimer. The avg owner gets a bill every month and you re telilng him that the horse needs rest! are you serious?

so, just becuase the guy knows how to train.. they still made the right call. although I think one could have done better than mott.

[Dahoss9698]

true story:

I co founded and run an internet web development firm. About 5 months ago I had a client that had a pretty nice sized job that we were going to work on for him. We did all the prep work and then soon poof. he just disappeared. I was upset but it happens, you deal with it.

Well it turns out, one of my better programmers, who was talking to the client from time to time, told him he could do the work at his normal rate, outside the company. This "saved" the client about 35% of the budget.

Well long story short, 3 weeks ago, the programmer came clean to me and told me what happened (I had my suspecions) and basically begged me to help him turn the project around becuase he coudlnt' deal with the client, now the client was threatening to sue him becuase of breach of contract.

I didn't fire him, because quite honestly, i can't fire someonef or doing something I would have done as well. Plus, I knew he was a good programmer but I also knew the guy does not have what it takes to deal with the clients we deal with.

I'm an above avg programmer myself, but I have guys on my staff that could (and do) run circles around what I'm capable of doing. But technical skill, and in this case, horsemanship is only part of the equation.

The avg horse owner is well off, usually a business owner, used to getting his own way, more often than not clueless about horses and horseman ship, and all want to win the kentucky derby, 3YO or not. The avg owner doesn't understand you told him to buy this yearling for 150k and now you want to dump him in a 20k claimer. The avg owner gets a bill every month and you re telilng him that the horse needs rest! are you serious?

so, just becuase the guy knows how to train.. they still made the right call. although I think one could have done better than mott.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. But, considering the way Juddmonte operates, who would have been better for them? I ask, because I'm kind of confused how people are taking Mott's ability into question in this thread. You didn't per se, but you think they could have done better. So who would have been better for an operation that is mostly turf based and specializes in quality over quantity.

[toussaud]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. But, considering the way Juddmonte operates, who would have been better for them? I ask, because I'm kind of confused how people are taking Mott's ability into question in this thread. You didn't per se, but you think they could have done better. So who would have been better for an operation that is mostly turf based and specializes in quality over quantity.

if you can't get my point after reading that you are simply trying to pick a fight. it's clear as day what my point is. go run along and play somewhere.

[Dahoss9698]

if you can't get my point after reading that you are simply trying to pick a fight. it's clear as day what my point is. go run along and play somewhere.

Juddmonte isn't the typical horse owner. You said one could have done better than Mott. I asked who would have been better. It's not a difficult question.

[PaceAdvantage]

if you can't get my point after reading that you are simply trying to pick a fight. it's clear as day what my point is. go run along and play somewhere.Either answer the man's very rational and polite question or don't. If anyone seems to be picking a fight in this instance, I think it might be you.

[tribecaagent]

Linda Rice.

[Dahoss9698]

Linda Rice.

She's a good trainer, but she specializes in turf sprints and New York State Breds. Not exactly Juddmonte's bread and butter.

[toussaud]

Either answer the man's very rational and polite question or don't. If anyone seems to be picking a fight in this instance, I think it might be you.
sure

[DanG]

Bill Mott is a world class horseman.
Period…the end.

[joanied]

I still think Humberto should get at least 4 or 5 Juddmonte horse to train...but I understand the point that maybe he wouldn't be as good as an established trainer as far as dealling with owners...there is more to being a trainer than sending the horse out in the morning...I sure don't know Humberto, so I guess I really can't say one way or another.
But...I have no problem with Mott...he's a top trainer and the man has a ton of class...and he sure knows how to train turf horses...it's his forte!!

[Dahoss9698]

sure

I'll help you out. There are other guys who might be able to handle the job also, although Mott is more than qualified. People forget Mott was main trainer for the Paulson operation for a long time. That stable was very similar to Juddmonte. Almost all of the horses are homebreds. Their focus is turf, although they have had some high quality dirt runners. But, most of all, they are patient, loyal outfits.

Guys like John Sheriffs, Neil Drysdale, Dick Mandella, Angel Penna would all have been good choices also. But Bill Mott takes a back seat to no one, in this country at least in terms of training and horsemanship IMO.

[andymays]

Opening Day at Santa Anita in the 10th race #5 Ad Infinitum (2yo Storm Cat colt and a first time starter) is a Juddmonte runner trained by Humberto Ascanio.