Breeding

[WinterTriangle]

Was studying my pedigrees tonight (as an aside, (I found it amazing how many great horses have never raced in North America!)


While reading on Ellen Parker's site (reines-de-course) I came across this quote, which is just amazingly ON TARGET:

"While the market becomes more and more polarized toward big commercial operations, first-season sires and a handful of 'top' stallions.... the breeder with long-term goals, other than commercial gain, will have to defy this trend. Breeding decisions, which may seem to many unwise or unconventional, may in fact represent the key to our survival."
---The H. H. Aga Khan

[matthewsiv]

Was studying my pedigrees tonight (as an aside, (I found it amazing how many great horses have never raced in North America!)


While reading on Ellen Parker's site (reines-de-course) I came across this quote, which is just amazingly ON TARGET:

"While the market becomes more and more polarized toward big commercial operations, first-season sires and a handful of 'top' stallions.... the breeder with long-term goals, other than commercial gain, will have to defy this trend. Breeding decisions, which may seem to many unwise or unconventional, may in fact represent the key to our survival."
---The H. H. Aga Khan



The Agha Khan and Prince Khalid Abdullah (Judmonte Farms) are two of the most successful breeders in the last fifty years.
Both are genius who follow their own path.

[Steve R]

Was studying my pedigrees tonight (as an aside, (I found it amazing how many great horses have never raced in North America!)


While reading on Ellen Parker's site (reines-de-course) I came across this quote, which is just amazingly ON TARGET:

"While the market becomes more and more polarized toward big commercial operations, first-season sires and a handful of 'top' stallions.... the breeder with long-term goals, other than commercial gain, will have to defy this trend. Breeding decisions, which may seem to many unwise or unconventional, may in fact represent the key to our survival."
---The H. H. Aga Khan


Perhaps the quotation is out of context, but I don't quite understand it. The original Aga Khan hired Lord Derby's trainer, George Lambton, to select his initial purchases based on physical attributes and he hired Lt. Col. Vuillier, the creator of Dosage, to evaluate their pedigrees. He focused at first on fillies, several of which were by so-called "top" stallions like The Tetrarch and Tracery. One was Mumtaz Mahal, the second highest-price filly sold in England to that time. She retired undefeated and is a direct female-line ancestor of Mahmoud and Nasrullah. Among the colts he bought was Blenheim II by major winner Blandford which was, if not a first-season sire, still early in his career path to being one of the greatest breeding stallions. In later years the Aga Khan and his son bought shares in very high end stallions like Nearco while retaining shares in some of their own very successful colts.

My point is that even though the Aga Khan may have experimented (and he certainly had the opportunity to do so because of his enormous wealth), much of his own program was upscale to say the least. The most unconventional part may have been the initial use of Vuillier and his Dosage method to get things started. But as I said, the quotation may be out of context and there may be more I am missing.

[Show Me the Wire]

Perhaps the quotation is out of context, but I don't quite understand it. The original Aga Khan hired Lord Derby's trainer, George Lambton, to select his initial purchases based on physical attributes and he hired Lt. Col. Vuillier, the creator of Dosage, to evaluate their pedigrees. He focused at first on fillies, several of which were by so-called "top" stallions like The Tetrarch and Tracery. One was Mumtaz Mahal, the second highest-price filly sold in England to that time. She retired undefeated and is a direct female-line ancestor of Mahmoud and Nasrullah. Among the colts he bought was Blenheim II by major winner Blandford which was, if not a first-season sire, still early in his career path to being one of the greatest breeding stallions. In later years the Aga Khan and his son bought shares in very high end stallions like Nearco while retaining shares in some of their own very successful colts.

My point is that even though the Aga Khan may have experimented (and he certainly had the opportunity to do so because of his enormous wealth), much of his own program was upscale to say the least. The most unconventional part may have been the initial use of Vuillier and his Dosage method to get things started. But as I said, the quotation may be out of context and there may be more I am missing.

The quote is perfectly clear. Emphasizing long-term goals over short-term economic gain is more important. Breeding decisions seemingly unwise in the current market, which are not based on win early speed, will be seen as wise decisions in the future.

[joanied]

The quote is perfectly clear. Emphasizing long-term goals over short-term economic gain is more important. Breeding decisions seemingly unwise in the current market, which are not based on win early speed, will be seen as wise decisions in the future.

There ya go:ThmbUp:

[Steve R]

There ya go:ThmbUp:
If the thumbs up is for the idea that the Aga Khan didn't make his breeding decisions based on early speed, I'll refer you to Abram Hewitt's analysis of the Aga Khan's program in THE GREAT BREEDERS AND THEIR METHODS: "The Aga Khan thought that speed was the first essential..." The primary example Hewitt used was Palestine, a colt the Aga Khan thought "was likely to prove the best horse he had ever bred." Palestine was by the miler Fair Trial out of a mare by Tetratema, "the best speed horse of his time, nearly all of whose stock were pure sprinters." Palestine was a superior juvenile which failed to stay on at three and became a sire of sprinters.

It was the Aga Khan's son, Prince Aly Khan, who shifted the focus to stout breeding by buying stout French mares and then mating them with stout sires like Bois Roussel. This resulted in St. Leger winner Tulyar. However, he also bought part or all of stout high-class racing stock like Avenger and My Love which, because they lacked early maturity and speed, failed as sires.

The stud's early success probably had more to do with the nine farms in Ireland and France loaded with top class breeding stock than it did with any insightful breeding theories. And loads of yearlings were offered through the premier sales at Deauville. As Hewitt notes: "The Aga Khan at times was accused of being a mere dealer rather than a breeder, and his motto seemed to be buy high and sell still higher", which sounds a lot like a commercial objective.

Their greatest latter day successes - horses such as Darshaan (Shirley Heights/Abdos), Kalamoun (Zeddaan/Prince Bio), Blushing Groom (Red God/Wild Risk), Akiyda (Labus/Abdos), Shergar (Great Nephew/Val de Loir) and Zarkava (Zamindar/Kahyasi) - revived the stud's decline that began in the 1950s. Somewhere along the way, a viable breeding pattern did emerge that was different from the Aga Khan's fascination with speed or Prince Aly Khan's devotion to stoutness. The group of more recent winners are all characterized by balanced pedigrees derived by breeding speed sires to stouter mares or the reverse, stout sires to speedier mares. Nevertheless, for most of its existence the Aga Khan's stud was a large commercial operation that did, in fact, emphasize the use of a select group of "top" stallions, unless you consider sires like Blandford, Blenheim II, Mahmoud, Nearco, Hyperion and Bois Roussel not representative of the top.

Nowadays there actually may be a shift in philosophy, but if there is, I'd attribute it to necessity because of an inability to compete with powerhouse organizations like Coolmore. The addition of Sea The Stars to the Aga Khan's more modest stallion roster seems to suggest at least one "first-season sire" that will be prominent in their program. I don't think the proposed mating of Sea The Stars to Zarkava "defies any trend."

[Show Me the Wire]

The :ThmbUp: is to my explanation of the quote, which you asked for, not as an endorsement or non-endorsement of the Aga Kahn's breeding decisions.

[Steve R]

The :ThmbUp: is to my explanation of the quote, which you asked for, not as an endorsement or non-endorsement of the Aga Kahn's breeding decisions.
Never asked for your explanation, thanks. I was merely pointing out that the history of the Aga Khan's stud essentially contradicts the quotation. As Hewitt pointed out, short-term economic was an integral part of the Aga Khan's game plan. If it's not today, it's likely because Dalakhani is the only stallion they have (not including Sea The Stars) with any serious commercial value.

Breeding decisions made today are only wise or unwise if they result in winners in the first case and losers in the second. They will, however, determine the configuration of racing, something that has nothing to do with wisdom per se but everything to do with cultural preference..

[Show Me the Wire]

You asked what the quote meant. You said it did not make sense to you.

I explained it.

Now I explained what the :ThmbUp: meant.

[Steve R]

You asked what the quote meant. You said it did not make sense to you.

I explained it.

Now I explained what the :ThmbUp: meant.
Do show me where I asked what the quote meant or indicated that it didn't make sense.

I'm pretty sure I wrote that I didn't understand it (not that I didn't know what it meant) because...[insert paragraph that followed] (not because it didn't make sense).

Why do you persist in playing the village idiot?

[Cardus]

Do show me where I asked what the quote meant or indicated that it didn't make sense.

I'm pretty sure I wrote that I didn't understand it (not that I didn't know what it meant) because...[insert paragraph that followed] (not because it didn't make sense).

Why do you persist in playing the village idiot?

It's clear that you are fluent on this topic.

The rest... nowhere.

[joanied]

The :ThmbUp: is to my explanation of the quote, which you asked for, not as an endorsement or non-endorsement of the Aga Kahn's breeding decisions.

Correct...I was simply saying that I agree that breeding for early speed and fast commercial value is not good in the long run...wether or not I agree with, or beleive the Aga Khan's breeding program is a good one or not, is beside the point...
although, Steve R, your post was excellent...again, the ':ThmbUp: ' was in agreement that breeding for stamina and long term value, not making a quick buck, so to speak, is most beneficial.
:) :) :)

[Spalding No!]

I think Steve R's initial concern that the quote was taken out of context may prove to be accurate, if the headline on the "Reines-de-Course" website is any indication (and this is in large font for all to see, BTW):

CONTRADICTION OF THE YEAR

Oak Tree Director and Executive Vice President Sherwood Chillingworth in a Santa Anita Park press release dated 11/9/09:

"We had zero injuries on the main track over the two-day Breeders' Cup."

Daily Racing Form online article dated 11/7/09:

"Lillie Langtry, the beaten favorite in the Nov. 6 Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf, suffered a slab fracture in a knee during the race."

How much credibility does the webmaster of a Horse Racing site lose when you have to explain to them what surface the Breeder's Cup Juvenile Fillies Turf is run on?

[Show Me the Wire]

Perhaps the quotation is out of context, but I don't quite understand it. ...... But as I said, the quotation may be out of context and there may be more I am missing.

Perhaps you really do not understand what you write. If you meant that quote was or is taken in the wrong context for the author's conclusion, then say it.

The way you phrased your question, you asked what joanied meant. You were given the correct information as to its meaning per joanied, which she confirmed.

If you want the correct answer to a different question ask the appropriate question. If you were making a statement about the error made by the webmaster, use a declatory sentence.

[Bochall]

If you are breeding a horse to win the Ky Derby what is your ideal matchup in terms of stallion and broodmare sire?

Smart Strike out a Broad Brush mare? Affirmed mare?

[Steve R]

Perhaps you really do not understand what you write. If you meant that quote was or is taken in the wrong context for the author's conclusion, then say it.

The way you phrased your question, you asked what joanied meant. You were given the correct information as to its meaning per joanied, which she confirmed.

If you want the correct answer to a different question ask the appropriate question. If you were making a statement about the error made by the webmaster, use a declatory sentence.
The way I phrased my question? Where exactly was my question to Joanied? Read the words again. I didn't ask her what she meant. I didn't ASK her anything. I said "If the thumbs up is for the idea that the Aga Khan didn't make his breeding decisions based on early speed, I'll refer you to Abram Hewitt's analysis of the Aga Khan's program...". Grammatically it is a correlative conjunction, not a question. In fact, there isn't a question mark anywhere in the response. And do us all a favor. Learn how to spell.

Finally, please don't respond to my posts and please don't refer to my posts in your responses to others. I certainly will do the same for you. But if you insist, I will defend myself. So can we agree to ignore each other? A simple YES will do just fine.

[Show Me the Wire]

I quoted your words as justification for my original answer. Something for you to ponder, It seems Joanied and I understood each other. Why is it that the only misunderstanding involved you? .

If you want to make a point, which I understand now, declaratory statements work better than questions for us village idiots.

If you are trying to imitate the use of the Socratic method to elicit certain responses, your imitation is flawed.

BTW I didn't attack you, you came after me. I made no sarcastic remarks about you, I answered a question, you secretly meant as a statement. I did so without calling you names or any attempt at ridicule.

If you mistake a response to your question as an attack on you, I don't know what to say.

If you read your postings to me on your other threads, you are the attack dog, with your name calling. I only refuted your points and discussed your opinions. It seems criticism is something with, which you have a problem.

[pedigreeman]

This is a article from 1960 by Mme Vuillier.

1.) The principal role of the mare is to improve the stallion.

2.) Today, the stallion's racing record, the stakes won, the class,
and the amount of money won play important roles in breeding,
because a big winning stallion may become the founder of a new
series in the Vuillier System. Formerly, these were les important.

3.) The conformation of the Thoroughbred counts for little. It is the
pedigree that most important.

4.) The Aga Khan's best race mares have not been and presently are
not his best broodmares. His best horses usually come from the
sisters and half sisters of the great winning mare.

"It is important for all breeders to appreciate the magnificent
importants and influence of Hermit, Stockwell, St. Simon, and the
matron Pocahontas, which four are the most important foundations of
today's Thoroughbred."

[joanied]

This is a article from 1960 by Mme Vuillier.

1.) The principal role of the mare is to improve the stallion.

2.) Today, the stallion's racing record, the stakes won, the class,
and the amount of money won play important roles in breeding,
because a big winning stallion may become the founder of a new
series in the Vuillier System. Formerly, these were les important.

3.) The conformation of the Thoroughbred counts for little. It is the
pedigree that most important.

4.) The Aga Khan's best race mares have not been and presently are
not his best broodmares. His best horses usually come from the
sisters and half sisters of the great winning mare.

"It is important for all breeders to appreciate the magnificent
importants and influence of Hermit, Stockwell, St. Simon, and the
matron Pocahontas, which four are the most important foundations of
today's Thoroughbred."

I don't agree with #3...conformation does count...no horse is perfectly conformed, that is obvious...little faults here & there are OK...but you sure don't want a horse with a stellar pedigree that is not balanced/has poor conformation....IMO :)

[joanied]

I hope my little ':ThmbUp: ' sign isn't the cause of your arguing...I agreed with a sentence within the entire post that states breeding for precocious speed isn't going to help in the long run.
I'm sorry if this is the cause of your agrument...if it is.

[bisket]

The quote is perfectly clear. Emphasizing long-term goals over short-term economic gain is more important. Breeding decisions seemingly unwise in the current market, which are not based on win early speed, will be seen as wise decisions in the future.
this is why the breed here in the states is in such a bad state. also why tracks have resorted to the hated poly track to change things

[PaceAdvantage]

I grow weary of the petty bullshit bickering back and forth. If I didn't know any better, I would think some are doing this on purpose.

[Jackal]

I grow weary of the petty bullshit bickering back and forth. If I didn't know any better, I would think some are doing this on purpose.
They must be TVG forum immigrants. PA, you should take a peek at TVG forums. It's the same nonsense - the difference is they have teams.

[WinterTriangle]

How much credibility does the webmaster of a Horse Racing site lose when you have to explain to them what surface the Breeder's Cup Juvenile Fillies Turf is run on?

Ellen Parker is not a webmaster. She is a breeding consultant and pedigree researcher who has spent lots of time studying famous mares. She writes for American Turf Monthly and for Washington Thoroughbred and is on the NTWA member roster webpage. She invented Reines-de-Course (Queens of the Turf), i.e. influential female thoroughbreds, which, when inbred to, can strengthen a pedigree, in 1985. She also wrote A history of Princequillo.

I found out about her from links on other Pedigree and breeding sites.


As I said to you before, anyone reviewing your posts see that you do nothing except criticize eveyone and everything.....now I see it also extends to anyone in the industry who has accomplished something.

I see no indepth pedigree analysis from you on this board, nor any selections for races.

So----what "information" or content, do you provide here, besides ragging on Zenyatta and ragging on other posters? Because it is not apparent. :D

(Or did you just rag on Ellen Parker because I published a quote from her site?)

[bisket]

winter its a well known fact that unraced mares just seem to have a penchant for producing good race horses. why is really anyones guess, but it is a rather frequent occurance.
another little known fact: for the majority of the last 10 years the derby winners have been homebreds. horses purchased at the sales haven't been doing well on derby day lately.

[joanied]

Ellen Parker is not a webmaster. She is a breeding consultant and pedigree researcher who has spent lots of time studying famous mares. She writes for American Turf Monthly and for Washington Thoroughbred and is on the NTWA member roster webpage. She invented Reines-de-Course (Queens of the Turf), i.e. influential female thoroughbreds, which, when inbred to, can strengthen a pedigree, in 1985. She also wrote A history of Princequillo.

I found out about her from links on other Pedigree and breeding sites.


As I said to you before, anyone reviewing your posts see that you do nothing except criticize eveyone and everything.....now I see it also extends to anyone in the industry who has accomplished something.

I see no indepth pedigree analysis from you on this board, nor any selections for races.

So----what "information" or content, do you provide here, besides ragging on Zenyatta and ragging on other posters? Because it is not apparent. :D

(Or did you just rag on Ellen Parker because I published a quote from her site?)

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: ...Winter T...that is what some people do...spend their time finding fault with anyone and everyone...:faint:

[joanied]

winter its a well known fact that unraced mares just seem to have a penchant for producing good race horses. why is really anyones guess, but it is a rather frequent occurance.
another little known fact: for the majority of the last 10 years the derby winners have been homebreds. horses purchased at the sales haven't been doing well on derby day lately.

Without double checking...which I would never do to you, da bisket :) ...I beleive you are correct...about the homebreds...and ya know what...I love that...when are 'they' gonna learn...paying multi millions for a horse usually won't get you to the winner's circle on the 1st Saturday in May.

Mares area mystery...or sure can be...one thing that is generally true, is the more they race, especially into their 5th year, the chances, for some mysterious reason, of them getting special foals drops considerably...one reason you'll find mares with wonderful bloodlines that are unraced, or started few times.
I am sure that has played into the Moss's calling it quits for Zenyatta...which I mentioned several times when some were screaming about them not going another year with her.

[Spalding No!]

Ellen Parker is not a webmaster.

Ellen Parker maintains that Reines-de-Course website, correct?

Wanna guess the definition of a "webmaster"?

As I said to you before, anyone reviewing your posts see that you do nothing except criticize eveyone and everything.....now I see it also extends to anyone in the industry who has accomplished something.

Hey, if you're gonna put yourself out there like your some sort of authority on horse racing in whatever respect, the least you can do is (a) edit/review the content you put forth, or (b) figure out the difference between "the main track" and the "turf course". Hopefully the problem was more (a) than (b).

I see no indepth pedigree analysis from you on this board, nor any selections for races.

I'll admit I haven't contributed anything along the lines of pointing out that Seeking The Gold is a good dirt sire.

So----what "information" or content, do you provide here, besides ragging on Zenyatta and ragging on other posters? Because it is not apparent.

Early I mentioned Skywalker was 5th in the '85 Kentucky Derby.

[Spalding No!]

Without double checking...which I would never do to you, da bisket :) ...I beleive you are correct...about the homebreds...and ya know what...I love that...when are 'they' gonna learn...paying multi millions for a horse usually won't get you to the winner's circle on the 1st Saturday in May.

Actually, 6 of the last 10 Derby winners were purchased at the sales.

Now do you see my "contribution"?

[bisket]

Actually, 6 of the last 10 Derby winners were purchased at the sales.

Now do you see my "contribution"?
actually the previous 5 years prior to big brown they were all homebreds

[bisket]

heres pps from
street sense
http://drf.com/tc/kentuckyderby/2007/pps/07kyderby_winner_streetsense.pdf
barbaro
http://drf.com/tc/kentuckyderby/2007/pps/07kyderby_winner_streetsense.pdf
giacomo
http://drf.com/tc/kentuckyderby/2006/pps/2005derbywinner.pdf
smarty
http://drf.com/tc/kentuckyderby/2006/pps/2004derbywinner.pdf
ok so it was 4 years

[bisket]

Actually, 6 of the last 10 Derby winners were purchased at the sales.

Now do you see my "contribution"?
yeah don't see how i've made through the last 35 years playing the ponies without you :p

[Spalding No!]

actually the previous 5 years prior to big brown they were all homebreds

That was 2 years ago.

14 of the last 20 (that's as far as I cared to look) were bought out of the sales.

[Spalding No!]

yeah don't see how i've made through the last 35 years playing the ponies without you :p

Yep. I'm sure you're doing just fine.

Its a good MO: Keep passing off bad information to your parimutuel competitors and you'll have a leg up on them.

[Dahoss9698]

Yep. I'm sure you're doing just fine.

Its a good MO: Keep passing off bad information to your parimutuel competitors and you'll have a leg up on them.

For what it's worth, I fail to see what you have done wrong in this or any other thread. Nothing wrong with questioning things, especially false information.

[Spalding No!]

For what it's worth, I fail to see what you have done wrong in this or any other thread. Nothing wrong with questioning things, especially false information.

It's just backlash for pointing out some inconsistencies in the epic Reflect Times redboard post (it originated in the "Selections" section, mind you) over in the Handicapping section.

My original post in this thread was 2 days ago and wasn't broached until now.

I dread entering the "Unraced" thread...