Racehorse Ownership

[karlskorner]

http://www.dailyrecord.com/sports/pro/sports3-horse0614.htm

The site they recommend

www.thegreatestgame.com

Interesting site

[VetScratch]

Gay Fisher, executive director of The Greatest Game, said that while racing is heavily regulated, the business of buying and selling thoroughbreds is hardly regulated at all. The Greatest Game, she said, reviews consultants and makes them adhere to a code of ethics. It can then match prospective investors with those consultants, who act as their mentors in the business.

Investors apply for mentorship, and are matched with consultants, who pay a fee to be part of The Greatest Game. Those consultants could be trainers, bloodstock agents, current owners, partnership managers or others involved in the business of thoroughbred racing.

I hope their code of ethics still allows three-way cutting, which can give mentors three slices of every pie. Let's see, a percentage fee from the client, a percentage fee from the seller, and a bonus cut if you bid and buy above the secret target price. The Greatest Game may revive an occupation that was victimized by computers and networking. In the "Good Old Days" you could have your partners buy low at one auction then sell high at another (to your client) before the first transaction could be found in an old fashioned records search.

[Kentucky Bred]

At one point in my life I owned 22 horses in training, some with partners. Today I own none.

Most people have no idea what they are getting themselves into. You are responsible for everything and every problem that your horse has.

Do you know when your horse needs new shoes or what type of shoes? Do you know when your horse needs to have his teeth "floated" by a horse dentist? Do you know when your horse needs special vitamins or food? Could you even verify that your trainer actually did what he/she is claiming they did?

There are some excellent trainers but communicators they are not. Most owners universally complain that they never know what is going on or when their horse is going to race or what is coming up.

You are a pawn. You will lose money. You are a sucker.

Solution: Get a vets license...get a trainers license...do it all yourself. Some owners have taken more control. As I see it, it is the only way.

This is the dirty little secret on the backstretch. Maybe it is just my experience. If so, I'm sure we will flooded with postings on this thread from owners reporting how much money they have made from their racing "business".

There has only been one smart owner. A man named Rubin bought a unregarded horse named John Henry. He owned a bicycle shop in Pasadena, Ca. He paid, I believe, $1700. He made $6 Million. To my knowledge, from what was reported, he NEVER INVESTED AGAIN IN ANOTHER HORSE. McAnally was furious. It is considered polite to reinvest your money after a big winning horse. Rubin took the money and RAN!

But then again, you can also employ an expert to "match prospective investors with those consultants". I'm sure that will solve the problems stated above. ;)

Kentucky Bred

[Show Me the Wire]

Kentucky Bred:

As you said it is a tough business. Like any business you need to be knowledgeable about the business and economics. I agree with your post in total.

I believe the absolute worst form of ownership is a public syndication, unless you are looking for losses for tax reasons.

The best advice, I can give to anyone, get a mentor always a good idea in any business, but get one you personally know or you would like to emulate.

Race horses are major investments and should be treated as such, unless you have some other reason than profit motives to get involved.

Most important of all set the ground rules with the trainer, that the trainer is not in control, except for the physical conditoning of the horse. Bottom line before you own, you need a solid business plan. Even with all the negatives I think it is the "greatest".

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[TonyK@HSH]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
Kentucky Bred:

Most important of all set the ground rules with the trainer, that the trainer is not in control, except for the physical conditoning of the horse. Bottom line before you own, you need a solid business plan. Even with all the negatives I think it is the "greatest".

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

SMTW,

I agree that there is no greater experience than horse owning. I also agree that it MUST be run as a business in order to be successful and that ground rules should be set with the trainer. But I don't necessarily agree that a trainer should not have significant control.
In my opinion, the most important part of owning is trainer selection just as employee selection is critical to the success of your business. If you don't select a trainer that is compatible with you, your business is doomed. Once you have the right trainer, the balance of the partnership will be smooth.
I think it's also important to recognize that this is a business and all businesses go through periods of ups and downs. All businesses must be flexible enough to be sensitive to current market demands. Have a plan, but be prepared to massage it whenever necessary.
One thing that really make me laugh is to see new owners, often very successful in other endevours, invest in horses then trying to call the shots. Using that logic, since I've invested in many companies through stock acquisitions, I should have the right to set policies for there company. No, instead I'm investing in the expertise of others. I don't see horse owning as very different.

Tony

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by TonyK@HSH
SMTW,

I agree that there is no greater experience than horse owning. I also agree that it MUST be run as a business in order to be successful and that ground rules should be set with the trainer. But I don't necessarily agree that a trainer should not have significant control.

I should have the right to set policies for there company. No, instead I'm investing in the expertise of others. I don't see horse owning as very different.

Tony

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes and yes? Generally if you own 51% of the voting stock you determine the policies. You do this by electing the management you want. If you disagree with their style you fire them and hire new management.

As you said you need to rely on expertise. All trainers do not have the same expertise. I read a stat from the Jockey Club, if I remember correctly, that about 50% of licensed trainers don't even one race in a given year.

Yes, know your trainer, and his strengths, and at a minimum a trainer should be able to condition a horse. A great trainer has to wear many hats, conditioner, handicapper, business owner, public relations, etc. A difficult task for people on the whole.

IMO, most trainers either because of the trainer-owner economic dynamics, I talked about before or because the trainer does not have the needed expertise to place the horse in a winning situation, is strong support for the owner to exercise control. The trainer is the employee, owners are not the trainer's employee.


Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Storm Cadet]

SMTM is right...I am a part owner in a public limited partnership over the past year. Both of my investments did very well...that is NOT the norm, that's for sure. both ran in stakes as 2YO's.

But that's it...no more ownership after these two colts...especially with a public company.

The purchase markups (double their purchase price at yearling or in training sales), trainer markups...vet fees marked up...now many are adding management fees...it's almost next to impossible to make out in the horse business going with a public LLC. Imagine their profit with 10 colts a year to sell...with a sales profit of $75,000 each ($750,000) then a $500 per month per horse mgt fee ($6000 X 10= $60,000), and thats BEFORE their share of added vet and trainer fees. Most NY trainers get between $60-85 per day per horse, but the LLC pays at a much higher rate of $120 per day to the mgt company! And they in turn pay the trainer his usual fee...profit to MGT company again of $1,400 per horse per month...another $170,000 profit. Add those figs plus the prior years LLC's that they manage and they are doing quite well! And we're not even discussing the expenses they charge the LLC owners after a horse DOES make a profit with purses or either being sold or unfortunately dies. There's more hands in the pot taking part of the proceeds than you can believe!

Go on any of their sites on the net...look at their offerings...and do a little checking at the Fasig-Tipton sales and see what they REALLY paid for them!!! Would we ever pay double for any commodity that was double the listed price??? I wish I was part owner of the LLC company that runs the partnerships for investors...especially with Funny Cide doing well...those business are booming. Their downside is not being able to sell off the parnerships and you eating the unsold horse shares.

The only way I'll ever own another is to join a privately run LLC where you know that all the fees and charges are REAL and you have some face time with the trainer.

[Kentucky Bred]

Great posts guys. Show and Tony...it is true that the thrill of a big win is unmatched. Two of the most exciting moments of my life were in the winner circle in a relatively big stakes races. Seabiscuit ran like hell to win a 100 Grand Stakes Race. I was in the winner's circle of one of those and I was lighter than air.

Now, the reality. Imagine deciding to go to Orlando Disney World, but instead of paying $50 to get in you paid $500,000 as a decent size owner might be expected to "pony-up". Maybe not all at once but a good trainer has his/her eye on that. The key is to get him/her (owner) to get really caught up in the game. And spend most of the owner's money before the owner can see what is happening.

Play the math. There are roughly 40,000 T-BRED FOALS BORN EACH YEAR!! Much more than half will never see a racetrack in their lifetimes. One disaster after another will befall them. As many possibilities of injuries as you can imagine and then multiple by TEN! It is that bad.

Once you get to the race the competition gets very fierce. Much of our stock had to go to NoCal because SoCal was very tough. You were facing horses that cost over a million dollars, at one stage of their life, on a regular basis in SoCal. Then when you win you get rewarded by facing a group of horses that all won at the same level that your horse did. And when you win again you get to rewarded by facing a group of horses that all won at the same level again!

But that assumes that those hundreds of potential problems don't get you. And that is a very dangerous assumption. One exception to the general owner's complaint that they never get a call from their trainer is when BAD THINGS HAPPEN. If a trainer calls you, just answer with "Ok, what's wrong now" and you will be right most often.

And we are actually taking about doubling or tripling the overall costs by buying them through a racing partnership. You can hit a winning horse with those guys and still lose your ass. And for those who suggest that the horses were purchased through the sale with an official published price, I have another dirty little secret. The partnership companies have friends that attend the sale too. The are told to run the bid up very high. Partnership horses will go for far higher than other similar horses. The reason is obvious. The partnership has already agreed to purchase the horse at an agreed upon price. Then all they have to do is pay the 5% sales fee above the strike price. Keeneland, Fasig or Barretts all make a few more bucks and whose the wiser? The new partnership owner down the road has to foot this bill too.

Kentucky Bred

[Show Me the Wire]

If anybody is seriously considering purchasing a racehorse, I have posted the following for your enjoyment. I had serious trepidations about this post, because I am setting myself up for some potshots, but I am a risk taker.

Most of the successful owners I know learned the business the hard way. They were taken to school by the trainers and they survived. These owners were tenacious enough to learn from their mistakes, understand the economics, formulate business plans and eventually take over the management of the horse, while leaving the responsibility to condition the horse to the trainer and whatever other responsibility the owner believed the trainer was competent to perform. For example these owners learned they should consult personally with the vet about the horse’s health and treatment. The vet knows the owner pays the bill and if he sends it directly to an owner the vet has lots of incentive to talk to the owner. They also are savvy enough to learn about rudimentary physicality of the horse. But the savvy owner understands his limitations also, in order to defer to the expertise of the other team members. In short this is a hands on type of business.

For a new owner, it really is important to have an understanding of what the business is about. The same can be said for any business venture. If you want to open a restaurant it would be prudent you understand what running a restaurant entails.

This business can be built around dreams or around reality. You can try to breed or buy a Kentucky Derby winner or try for a reasonable return on your investment.

Since there has been interest on this board about horse ownership, I would be willing to consult anyone or any group that is seriously considering owning a racehorse. Based on this board’s history I am sure other owners on this board will more than likely be willing to help potential owners gain enough knowledge to have a chance at succeeding in racehorse ownership. I am sure any advice you get from these owners would be much more beneficial than any advice you get from any thoroughbred owners association.

I am located in the Chicago area and I race in Illinois, Kentucky, Indiana, and OakLawn, so it would be more convenient and I would have actual personal knowledge of these circuits and the trainers. Please do not ask general questions, such as how much does it cost a month to train a horse, because it varies from market to market and horse to horse.

For all you SEC types this is not a solicitation for investment, to raise capital, sell partnership interests, or refer business to specific trainers. It is only an offer to assist, mentor if you prefer, possible new owners to understand the business and avoid some of the common pitfalls.

Additionally, please be advised I am not holding myself out as an expert on ownership, but I am willing to impart the knowledge I have gained through my personal experiences. Based on the above my first advice is never become involved in a public syndication and do not buy babies.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire
Perception is reality

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Kentucky Bred
Great posts guys. Show and Tony...it is true that the thrill of a big win is unmatched. Two of the most exciting moments of my life were in the winner circle in a relatively big stakes races. Seabiscuit ran like hell to win a 100 Grand Stakes Race. I was in the winner's circle of one of those and I was lighter than air.
Kentucky Bred

What a thrill it must have been. I belive I would enjoy talking to you for hours and even days.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[JustRalph]

I used to own and Airplane that was on "Lease-back" and I would let some other pilots rent it. Replace "Veterinarian" with "Aircraft Mechanic" in the posts above and I understand completely about getting calls from the Trainer or Vet.........

[Shacopate]

You were in the winners circle of a Seabiscuit race? This horse raced in 1938. Given legal age projections that would make you about 78 years old.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Kentucky Bred]

No Shacopate: Seabiscuit was a few decades before my time..LOL. My point (albeit stupidly made) was that, if you have read the book, you know how hard the trainer worked to eventually get to the big "hundred grander" race at Santa Anita and eventually win it. When our horse won one, it wasn't quite worth what it was back then but a thrill I'll never forget.

Show, without sounding patronizing, you last post was as intelligently written as any I've ever read on this site. It is clear you know the pitfalls and problems associated with racing ownership. Based purely on your post I would recommend that anyone seriously thinking of having some fun with horse ownership contact you and take you up on your consultation offer.

You are so right that the sharp owners now were once the dumb owners of the past. They learned a painful and expensive lesson. Nobody on the backstretch cares that you run a button manufacturing company. Gaining control over your horses is as much art as it is about strength and knowledge. Your points were simply excellent. Your tutelage could save new (or old) owners a bunch of money and heartache.

Kentucky Bred

[Suff]

Originally posted by Kentucky Bred
.


There has only been one smart owner


2 if you count Michael Gill. He Figured out a way to make Money in the biz and what happened? They black balled him. The Horseman have too much say in the distribution of Money.,.Race condition book, and the running of the track.

This years Cancelling of the Grade 2 600K Masscap was all about the Horsemen. With no summer circuit at Rockingham. Horserman threatened Suffolk Management that they'd all go to Calder for the summer........and never come back. So Suffolk was forced to take the 600K and sweeten the summer purses so the stock would stay.

Bill O'Malley(runs suffolk) went up to the STate House Early last year and got what he said at the time was a "Great Deal" for the Horsemen and Player. A year later he quietly admitted the deal he struck did'nt materialize and Canceled the MassCap. How can you make money when this is the environment your racing your horses in. The trainer and the track does whats good for them 1st , 2nd , 3rd and always.

There is a Large Owner Population that is in the sport for just that. Sport. These are the owners that The Backside wants to cater too. If You find holes in the system that allow you to actually take money out of the game...... Your considered bad for the game and they'll do anything they can to stop you. Hence..The Michael Gill situation.

[so.cal.fan]

We are lucky on this board to have good handicappers, willing to share some of their insights with us.
I think SMTW and some of you other guys who own horses and pay bills, etc.....are most generous in your offer to advise any new prospective owner.
The two groups in horseracing that need the most help are the ones who pay for the sport.......the owners and the bettors.
I know SMTW is an honest guy........he'll give you the straight scoop on the business of horse ownership.....the advantages and the disadvantages without the hype.
I haven't owned horses in Calif. since 1991.....due to the high cost of training bills here in So.Cal. So. Cal. is NOT the place to own and race horses....unless you are in a syndicate or have unlimited funds.
We used to be able to own horses, train them really cheap at Caliente, under Juan Garcia.......if they were any good, he'd send them up here to the big tracks to race....if not.....you saved your money. Gone are the days! <sigh>
This is one of the main reasons we have short fields in So. Cal.

[VetScratch]

Cancelling the Cap to fund daily racing was wise. At practically every track, the majority of owners, trainers, and jockeys would applaud moving money into the daily purse structure.

Historically, the problem has been that the horsemen have very little influence and have been unsuccessful in uniting as a lobby.

The vast majority of owners, trainers, and jockeys suffer when a track gives a disproportionate share of total purse money to the big outfits that ship in for a handful of graded stakes.

[Suff]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Cancelling the Cap to fund daily racing was wise. At practically every track, the majority of owners, trainers, and jockeys would applaud moving money into the daily purse structure.

.

The deal he sold to the legislators was that he NEEDED they're conssecions to KEEP the MASSCAP. The grade 2 event is the Cornerstone of any respectability the Track may have.

The legislators gave him his deal. I could track down the Herald storys for you. Suffolk got big stuff from the legislators. Upwards of 3 Million dollars. PLus they agreed to let Suffolk keep the outs....which averages 600K a year. and other little hor douv's were thrown in as well. Suffolk Could have taken the state lottery to superoir court to challenge the Slot Machine vote in the State Congress. And the State Lottery mighta been defeated or even worse , forced to air its dirty laundry under deposistion. The Legislators PAID him off to go away.

He took that Money. raised the purses $500 bucks. 9 months later that money is gone and Bob says,,,,ooooppps that did'nt work. I need the $600K Masscap Purse and $100K Promotion Budget. If Suffolk were a Stock. Sell it short. Its all done. They're raiding the cabinets.

Meanwhile...Suffolks a Nice track and facility. On Some of the most desirable property in Greater Boston. Its ONE mile from a major international airport. its 3/4'rs of a mile from Atlantic Ocean Beach Front Property. It's two Miles to smack downtown Boston, 5 Million people Live within 2 hours drive of the place. I can Leave here at 9:00 AM and run a Horse in NY's First race.

And O'malleys had the Reigns for 15+ years and he Can't improve the product or make it work. The Time for a change was long ago.

[Show Me the Wire]

Kentucky Bred and so.cal.fan.:

Thank you both for your kind words.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's try and keep the thread on ownership....we're drifting here with talk of Suffolk and the Mass' Cap....

[Suff]

I know...Your right. Besides........ talking about Suffolk Downs is Boring anyway.

Back to the Topic: Horse racing Ownership.



Pretty Soon they'll be alot of horses for Sale at Suffolk Downs.

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's buy one and form the PaceAdvantage Racing Stable....

PARS for short....LOL

[andicap]

2 if you count Michael Gill. He Figured out a way to make Money in the biz and what happened? They black balled him. The Horseman have too much say in the distribution of Money.,.Race condition book, and the running of the track.

----------------

He was always quoted as saying he was losing money. Not sure this was true or not tho.

[VetScratch]

However shrewd you might be as a handicapper, unless you were raised in or around the horse business, ownership presents you with a whole new learning curve.

Buying yearlings and two-year-olds at auctions is the riskiest way to acquire horses. Years of knowledge plus solid horse connections are required before auctions should be considered. After you begin to understand the game from the perspective of the backside, auctions offer an additional learning experience so long as you leave your money and credit line at home.

Going to auctions with the mentality of an observer is much different than going with the passion of a buyer. A few days at the sales in Ocala, Lexington, or Saratoga should expose the daunting risks, as you rub shoulders with and eavesdrop on the some of the major figures in the industry. Like lottery windfalls, lucky bounces are few and far between. Owners who have fared the best at auctions:

(1) Have deep pockets so that the promise of future investments is the carrot that motivates their current connections.

(2) Have enough stock in the racing pipeline or perceived clout in the industry to pose a threat to the financial futures or reputations of their connections (i.e., bloodstock agents, racetrack trainers, and the farms that will care for and initially train their purchases).

(3) Adopt a divide and conquer strategy for dealing with their connections insofar as delegating responsibilities for researching pedigrees, compiling lists of prospects, appraising prospects in the sales barns, and executing predetermined bidding strategies.

(4) Make all the final real-time decisions and capriciously reject a sufficient number of recommendations to discourage enthusiasm for collusion between connections on the sell and buy sides of the auction.

[Pace Cap'n]

Psssstt.........Wanna buy a horse?

www.racehorsetrader.com/

[Shacopate]

1. How much does it cost? Kentucky area.

2. At what level would you consider a horse not to be worth the
expense?

[Kentucky Bred]

Hey Shacopate:

Prices will vary greatly (yea I know--big help) depending on the type of bone chip(s), the number of them and location. It is a surgery so it won't be too cheap. I would say in Lexington you are certainly looking at low four figures. Maybe $1000-2000 especially if the horse has to be transported to a major hospital. But no price today would suprise me anymore.

If your horse is in training, these days you probably would keep the horse on the grounds hotwalking and then reverse galloping. You are trying to save the money you have put into conditioning. Most owners elect for the surgery. If the horse isn't in training and you don't think it is a runner, then it may be dump time. That is why when you purchase a horse, you must check all the areas for chips.

As always, your call. All horses are on a self-destruction mission. Your job to to save them from themselves. I love them but they aren't the brightest animals God ever created. They also weren't created to run 6 furlongs in 1:08 and change either.


Kentucky Bred

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Shacopate
1. How much does it cost? Kentucky area.

2. At what level would you consider a horse not to be worth the
expense?

1. Depends, can it be scoped ,does the joint have to be opened, vet's reputation, etc.

2. Once again it depends, how bad is the chip, can you afford 6 months of rehab time, what type of animal claiming or stakes.

This is a specific business decision, the one guidline I would use if I do the surgery and the rehab time what are the probabilities that I would recoup my expenses within 2 races if my animal gets claimed.

If you want to give me more specific details, feel free to pm me.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Shacopate]

Kentucky Bred, I haven't bought the horse yet because I know he's got chips. But he's a stone cold runner, he's been double claimed in his last two races winning races with Beyers of 80,81,90,91. And this is a 5k claimer.

Showmethewire, REHAB time....hmmm. Good point. Is 6 months about average. I can't afford to keep the horse on the shelf for that long.

Thanks guys.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Kentucky Bred

All horses are on a self-destruction mission. Your job to to save them from themselves. I love them but they aren't the brightest animals God ever created. They also weren't created to run 6 furlongs in 1:08 and change either.
Kentucky Bred

Ain't that the truth.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception Is reality

[Shacopate]

Your price quote seems to be on the money because a trainer at CD today told me "a couple grand."

[VetScratch]

Here's another tidbit of pre-owner info.

All licensed owners must establish a Horseman's Account in each financial jurisdiction where they intend to claim or run horses. Depending on where you are licensed and how many racing interests you have (i.e., as sole proprietor plus any partnerships), you may need a set of one or more accounts for each track and/or racing circuit.

Each account is similar to a checking account that has automatic bill paying features. Official Horseman's Bookkeepers at each track and/or regional bookkeeping agencies (such as the HGCA for the Chicago circuit) maintain these accounts and issue fully descriptive statements plus IRS Form 1099s.

Accounts for sole proprietorships correspond to all horses owned/leased entirely by a single legal tax entity and must be linked to a Social Security Number (SSAN) or Taxpayer ID. Partnership accounts correspond to all horses owned/leased by a licensed racing partnership, but are often linked by SSAN or Taxpayer ID to only one legal tax entity within the partnership. Therefore, a valid legal agreement that identifies each tax entity and defines financial interests/responsibilities for all parties should be executed before a partnership is licensed and represented by a Horseman's Account.

Many tracks/circuits issue fully descriptive statements and 1099s ONLY to the single partner whose taxpayer identification is linked to each partnership account. In essence, one partner is treated as the account holder. By mutual agreement, the account holder usually assumes responsibility for making financial disclosures to all other partners. In any case, tax and legal consultation is advisable to determine how matters concerning income, liabilities, and tax reporting should be handled.

Typical Horseman's Account Credits:
===========================
Deposits by owners, which must be collected funds before disbursement to claim horses or pay fees (unless you have big-time clout).
Gross purse income (automatic: whenever purse money is earned).
Net claiming proceeds (automatic: claiming price for horses claimed from account).
Transfers from other Horseman's Accounts.

Typical Horseman's Account Debits:
==========================
Jockey fees (automatic: always the first to get paid).
Gross claiming costs (automatic: claiming price plus any applicable sales tax for horses claimed into account).
Nomination/entry/starter fees for Stakes/Handicaps (automatic if you are fortunate enough to incur these expenses).
Winner's circle photos/tapes (automatic if you order them, and everyone does).
Miscellaneous fees (automatic: will vary by track, many non-recurring, not a big deal).
Transfers to other Horseman's Accounts (by specific request from authorized account holder).
Disbursement checks (by specific request from authorized account holder).

If you ship horses to run in Stakes/Handicaps or to establish eligibility to make claims, you are advised to open new accounts with cash or a cashier's check. Prior to Stakes/Handicaps, some tracks are strict about receiving collected funds for scheduled fees, while others may tolerate a temporary debit balance until the day of the race. In most instances, your trainer should know the ropes and advise you ahead of time about local/regional licensing and financial idiosyncrasies.

As a general rule, use transfer debits and disbursement checks ONLY to pay major expenses. Each transfer or check request is extra work for the Horseman's Bookkeeper, so remember that virtually every backsider and track insider can cause you grief if you become a pain in the ass. Almost everyone with a job at the track is related in some fashion to another backsider or insider that owners should NOT trifle with.

Payments to trainers is the one major expense category that many smart owners handle via transfers and checks from their Horseman's Account. The psychological message should be obvious, and this a very common practice which I recommend so long as you make it clear that you have the sole authority to initiate such transactions. A fairly common, but unwise practice, is for owners to give trainers authority to act as their financial agents with respect to Horseman's Accounts.

[Show Me the Wire]

VetScratch:

I thought all the knowledgable posters would contribute valuable information about ownership. Thanks for filling in some blamks.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality and my reality is horse racing is sum positve game.

[Shacopate]

I've been able to work out a deal with a young, up and coming trainer who was a former Jack Van Berg assistant for 5 years.

He is willing to waive training fees in exchange for half of earned purse money. This does NOT entitle him to half of the money if the horse gets claimed. We will pay farrier, dental and vet fees.

We've done this with a trainer at another track already, starting with a 4k claimer that won and was claimed enabling us to upgrade to a 7500k claimer that we broke even on.

[Shacopate]

And by saying: "This does NOT entitle him to half of the money if the horse gets claimed, I mean WE OWN THE HORSE. Not that he loses half of the purse money if the horse gets claimed.

[Show Me the Wire]

Well if it worked for you before. I would not be comfortable with this arrangement. It certainly puts the trainer in a position to train to win, but where is he going to get the money to pay his groom, hot walker, feed, etc. No money no help, cheap feed ,etc.

Additionally, I personally feel you should not claim anything below 7.5k, if the lowest level is 5K, or higher than 15K.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Shacopate]

It has worked before and I think that this is an affordable way to break in.

Our first trainer got half of 1st place purse money (a slot track) and was more than able to pay his help. (horse was claimed)

Why would you be uncomfortable with this arrangement?

Not trying to push your buttons, just curious.

[VetScratch]

Shacopate,

I can think of only one scenario where the scheme that you outlined has a chance to work.
(1) The young and upcoming trainer (a.k.a, the Kid) is employed and lives on a horse farm with a training track.
(2) The Kid is getting a stall, straw, baled feed, supplements, tack room gear and supplies, plus time on the training track as perks for working on the farm.
(3) The horse will be trained on the farm and vanned to and from the track for races.

If that is very far removed from the actual circumstances, you are dealing with a phony or certainly with one of Van Berg's rejects.

The deal as you envision it will invite every horseman to bristle and suggest ways the Kid should try and skin you because you are trying to run the game backwards: in favor of the owner!

I predict that this scheme will never win a race (unless maybe you run at one of the unsanctioned meets where horses go when they can't compete at Les Bois or other bottom-level ovals).
:)

[Shacopate]

The kid, as you call him is about 35 years old. As far as him being a reject, WAY OFF. I've spoken to alot of people, but better yet, I've seen how good his horses look on the track. Dappled and on the muscle.

Your prediction that this "scheme" will never win a race has allready been busted. We won with our first horse in a 4k claimer.

And everybody benefited.

[Shacopate]

Your third reason that this might work is exactly where we are.

[Show Me the Wire]

My reservations:

"It certainly puts the trainer in a position to train to win, but where is he going to get the money to pay his groom, hot walker, feed, etc. No money no help, cheap feed ,etc."

If you do not win first out does he have enough funds to carry him, without you paying? My concern is cash flow with this arrangement/

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[VetScratch]

I noticed that you said:
Our first trainer got half of 1st place purse money (a slot track)

I didn't bother to ask then, but am now curious. What slot track?
Thoroughbred, quarter-horse, or Arabian race? Slot tracks usually run quarter-horse distances, regardless of breed, because at that level none of them get enough training to go beyond their natural ability to make an anaerobic dash.

Which is why I said:
I predict that this scheme will never win a race (unless maybe you run at one of the unsanctioned meets where horses go when they can't compete at Les Bois or other bottom-level ovals).

I really doubt you won at KEE (nearest to your Lexington Profile home), CD, KD, or TP because 4K is below the bottom claiming rank at these ovals. I think the same is true for ELP, but maybe that track has dropped in class since the Indiana track opened.

I also have a hunch you didn't beat thoroughbreds.

[Shacopate]

Good point.

I think, maybe we got lucky the first time. But everyone knew the risks. It was a good claim and we can do it again.

[Shacopate]

It was Mountaineer.

And yes, we did beat thoroughbreds that day.

Any more questions?

I'll be happy to answer them.

[VetScratch]

Since you are training on the farm, is it your farm or a similar arrangement where the standard (and inflated) costs for baled feed and other racetrack expenses are mitigated? I would imagine so, even to the point of doing your own vanning.

Even with a full-time job and few out-of-pocket expenses, your trainer has still cut himself a thin deal unless there is more to it.

When they ship in off the farm (unless it is a recognized name), horses seldom get claimed from their first race unless someone knows more than they should (given circumstances that should have obscured the horse's ability until AFTER his first race).

My impression is that your trainer then and now are different. How has that original winner fared since you lost him? If he was or is competitive while moving up in class after the claim, I might suspect the first trainer took half the purse proceeds plus a spiff for tipping off the outfit that claimed him. Or worse yet, has that trainer somehow ended up training the horse after you lost him?

I sincerely wish you good luck bootstrapping your way into racing.
However, if you do enjoy further successes, at some point down the line you need to worry about the inevitable consequences of deals that appear too good to last.

[Shacopate]

You're making fun of MNR? This is too easy.

Do you know what the purse is for a 4k claimer at Mnr?

Check it out, my friend.

You can have your suspicions and doubts. I'll take cold hard cash.

[VetScratch]

Shacopate,

With purses subsidized by slot machines, the gross purse in your race was probably equal to or greater than the 4K claiming price!

I took your reference to a slot track to mean a quarter-horse slot that someone had graded and rolled somewhere in their back 40.

As an afterthought, anything is possible when you consider that Funny Cide's dam started out so far into the bushes that her maiden-race result chart barely got printed before Funny won the Derby! :D :D :D

[Shacopate]

Actually, it's much higher. The purse for a 4k claimer at Mnr is 11k.

Not too shabby.

Glad we got this worked out, you were like a dog that wouldn't let go of my pant leg.

Good luck.

[VetScratch]

After the purses soared, MNR turned around on a dime. For a short while, it was a bonanza for the local horsemen, but good news travels fast, and the purses soon attracted much better competition.

For a second short period, horses shipping from MNR to other tracks like SPT, HOO, RD, TDN, BEU, TP, PEN, and PHA provided some great overlay opportunities until the general handicapping community realized how competitive MNR had suddenly become.

Now if someone could just carry MNR down through the hollow and up over yonder ridge, we could put MNR on the highway and tow it outside W. VA. to civilization! :D :D :D

[VetScratch]

Shacopate:

Glad we got this worked out, you were like a dog that wouldn't let go of my pant leg.

Like a bitch would have won the cigar! You are obviously a guy, and all guys want to have a brief debate followed by a flare up of some kind, then share a few beers, watch a ballgame, swap stories, and totally forget whatever started the whole thing.

Probably someone near and dear to you has occasionally been just as exasperating as I was! :) :)

[Kentucky Bred]

I post a response last night and wake up to see two more pages of stuff!

Anyway, regarding MNR, horsemen run to the money. I predict that, unless KY gets a brain and competes with slots, MNR will become more powerful than all local tracks but Keeneland and CD. It certainly now is getting a better class of horses than TP on most days.

Back to the bone chip question. Unless I missed something Shacopate, I never found out were the chips where. An important question before I could try to pose an answer.

Kentucky Bred

[Shacopate]

knee.

[Kentucky Bred]

...ouch.


Friendly advice...run.


Kentucky Bred