HANDICAPPING TOURNAMENT FORMATS

[Jay Trotter]

I'm looking for thoughts on different possible formats for running single day Handicapping Tournaments -- all ideas, thoughts and examples are welcomed.

Some of the formats I'm familiar with are:

The Win/Place Format where a player obviously receives the pari-mutual payouts for the win and place positions for each of the contest races.

The 50% Bankroll Format where a player must play at least 50% of their existing bankroll on each contest race.

The TTC Format where players receive 20 points for a Win, 10 points for Place and 5 points for Show and double points on their Best Bet race.


Please add your two cents whether it be an existing format or just one you thought would be interesting to play! If possible, indicate where you came across the concept. Tell me what you like or don't like about the format. Tell me which formats truly reward the "best" handicapper.

Thanks for your assistance,

Trotter:ThmbUp:

[Bochall]

i would like to see a contest where the playable races are pre-selected or a pool of playable races are pre-selected.


PS- love your Dreyfuss qoute from Let It Ride. Reminds me a little of Mel Brooks in History Of The World, "..its good to be the king."

[Tom]

Whatever wagering is allowed at the track on that race, but with a bankroll where you can tap out. Too many contests allow stupid betting on longshots. You should be able to tap out relatively early on.
Say 1 day, 9 races - wps/dd/ex/trix/p3/p4/p6 but a $50 bank. Focu on actually handicapping a winner rather than shotgunning long shots.

[highrider]

A contest where the player can only score when the horse finishes in the exact position as picked. You never lose money on a wager but the only way to score is a direct hit. If the player wagers show and the outcome is a win or place,then it`s a loser. This would be a interesting game of skill. The scores would be low,The contest would be a dogfight.

[Bobzilla]

Occasional PA poster Tejas Kidd, a very good tournament player, recommended the following plan to the NTRA as an alternative to the rudimentary $2W $2P format used at the DRF/NTRA NHC.

It works by having 3 sets of 5 wagers each (assuming 15 plays/day traditionally used at NHC). The first set is for $10 Win bets with a 5/1 cap. The second set is for $5 Win bets with an 11/1 cap. The third set is for $2 Win bets with a 29/1 cap. The most anyone could make with any bet would be $60. The beauty of this format is that it allows the player to weigh his/her wagers based on their degree of confidence in the bet. If a player loves a horse who is 9/2 and the player has fair value at 5/2 that player can use one of his/her 5 allotted $10 bets to get back $55 on the 9/2 horse. This would be especially useful if it's the end of the day and the player would like to have that big hit to climb the leaderboard but accomplishing this with a horse the player actually loves and at an overlaid price. It beats taking blind stabs on 29/1 horses for whom you may, or may not, be able to make a rational case. If you do happen to like a 29/1 horse you can still save one of your 5 allotted $2 Win bets for it.

Seems like a good format because strategy is very much in play. The kicker is the respective caps for the different sets. Furthermore the set of plays that the bet was chosen from can better reflect the strength of opinion that the player actually had for the horse's chances. Wouldn't it be nice to hit a "Capper" with a 5/1 horse who you backed with conviction?

[Spendabuck85]

Tejas Kidd format :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

Whatever wagering is allowed at the track on that race, but with a bankroll where you can tap out. Too many contests allow stupid betting on longshots. You should be able to tap out relatively early on.
Say 1 day, 9 races - wps/dd/ex/trix/p3/p4/p6 but a $50 bank. Focu on actually handicapping a winner rather than shotgunning long shots.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Also you can bet your winnings

[fmolf]

mythical w/p/s only...bet every race on the card(this should encompass a good variety of races so players need to be well rounded handicappers)or select a variety of races from two or more tracks.a few claiming sprints maybe two allowance routes a baby race a mcl and a stakes too as well as a turf sprint.each race each contestant bets the same amt....player with largest bankroll at the end wins

[GARY Z]

MY TWIST:

ONE MAXIMUM WIN BET ON WINNER(USUAL FORMAT), BUT
ADD A NEW TWIST ON A 50% MAX BET ON THE HORSE
FINISHING LAST(MIN OF EIGHT HORSES IN THIS TYPE OF BET)

[WinterTriangle]

My suggestions for a single day contest:

1) Provide a pool of races beforehand (no races with 6 or less runners before scratches!)
2) Limit amount of tracks
2) Each race allows WPS wagers, as well as ONE type of straight exotic
3) Set amount that can be wagered on each race
4) Contestants are encouraged to wait for scratches, as no changes can be made and only refunds for scratches will be applied

If it is too complicated, it's a nightmare for the score-keeper. Even if contestants do their own scorekeeping, you often have differences. I personally would not want to be keeping the spreadsheet for 20+ people doing any kind of progressive wagering, or playing whatever tracks and/or races they wanted to. I also would not want to be keeping track of anyone's "rolling" bankroll, so I would not want to allow wagering of winnings.

The simpler the better, because there will ALWAYS be somebody who didn't follow instructions. ;)

[Robert Goren]

This Aqu pick 4 contest is a pretty good one. The parlay one is not too bad either, but it has got to be a ton of work for the scorekeeper. For a one day contest, a trifecta with say $20 max per race might be fun. The more I think about it the better the pick 4 becomes.

[Robert Goren]

MY TWIST:

ONE MAXIMUM WIN BET ON WINNER(USUAL FORMAT), BUT
ADD A NEW TWIST ON A 50% MAX BET ON THE HORSE
FINISHING LAST(MIN OF EIGHT HORSES IN THIS TYPE OF BET) It is lot harder to pick the last place horses than the winners. Another idea for a one day tourny at only one track is to see who can go the longest without getting a horse in the money ( 1st, 2nd or 3rd).

[GARY Z]

rOBERT:

If memory serves me right Andy Beyer corectly picked one of the heavy
derby favorites to finish last years ago in a prop bet offered by Vegas.

As I remeber the fav went lame during the race and Andywon about 50k..

I agree picking for last is quite difficult but this type of bet could
juice up a contest1

[illinoisbred]

rOBERT:

If memory serves me right Andy Beyer corectly picked one of the heavy
derby favorites to finish last years ago in a prop bet offered by Vegas.

As I remeber the fav went lame during the race and Andywon about 50k..

I agree picking for last is quite difficult but this type of bet could
juice up a contest1
Are you thinking of the year Demons Begone with Pat Day up bled down the backstretch at 9-5[1987] ?

[fmolf]

How about an exacta only one day tourney.Each player tries to pick the exacta cold in all nine races on the card and gets a mythical $2 wager on each race.winner is player with the largest winnings after nine races

[Canarsie]

How about an exacta only one day tourney.Each player tries to pick the exacta cold in all nine races on the card and gets a mythical $2 wager on each race.winner is player with the largest winnings after nine races


:ThmbUp:

I like this one.

Here's another to consider it was done on a harness board and was lots of fun. Both involve teams either you can pick your partner or it would be randomly chosen. If I remember right you were given "X" amount to win on certain races, a Pick 4 ($72), and a Pick 6 ($216). You only get paid if someone hits the exotic otherwise you get the consolation posted at the track. It really was enjoyable with the bantering going back and forth.

You can learn a lot from a partner just my two cents.

[Bill Cullen]

1) 100 races

2) Mythical win-bets only at $2 a bet for a total of 100 wins bets and a total of $200 wagered.

3) Formula for determining the winner:

(median win price) multiplied by (% of winners)

The highest figure wins.

[Bill Cullen]

FYI, the tournament formula for determining the winner that I just posted is how I personally measure systems and methodologies.

[Jay Trotter]

Question on this system: Would the caps be based on the ML odds?

Occasional PA poster Tejas Kidd, a very good tournament player, recommended the following plan to the NTRA as an alternative to the rudimentary $2W $2P format used at the DRF/NTRA NHC.

It works by having 3 sets of 5 wagers each (assuming 15 plays/day traditionally used at NHC). The first set is for $10 Win bets with a 5/1 cap. The second set is for $5 Win bets with an 11/1 cap. The third set is for $2 Win bets with a 29/1 cap. The most anyone could make with any bet would be $60. The beauty of this format is that it allows the player to weigh his/her wagers based on their degree of confidence in the bet. If a player loves a horse who is 9/2 and the player has fair value at 5/2 that player can use one of his/her 5 allotted $10 bets to get back $55 on the 9/2 horse. This would be especially useful if it's the end of the day and the player would like to have that big hit to climb the leaderboard but accomplishing this with a horse the player actually loves and at an overlaid price. It beats taking blind stabs on 29/1 horses for whom you may, or may not, be able to make a rational case. If you do happen to like a 29/1 horse you can still save one of your 5 allotted $2 Win bets for it.

Seems like a good format because strategy is very much in play. The kicker is the respective caps for the different sets. Furthermore the set of plays that the bet was chosen from can better reflect the strength of opinion that the player actually had for the horse's chances. Wouldn't it be nice to hit a "Capper" with a 5/1 horse who you backed with conviction?

[njcurveball]

I really like Tejas Kidd's suggestion. However, there is no way to implement it without going back to the "good ole days" where people actually got involved in running a tournament, rather than stand by a printer and watching a computer post the top names.

Heck, I even remember the days when they had a host for tournaments who would announce scratches and scores. They also had an on track camera interviewing the leaders back in those days.

Even further back they would have a rope over the tourney tables and you would hang your bets up there before 2 or 3 minutes to post so the crowd could walk around and see what everyone bet.

[GARY Z]

Are you thinking of the year Demons Begone with Pat Day up bled down the backstretch at 9-5[1987] ?

Hi Illinoisbred:


SPOT ON! ! Thanks for that information.

I'm still uncertain how Mr.B. made that pick unless he had some
backstretch info.


regards

Gary

[Bobzilla]

Question on this system: Would the caps be based on the ML odds?

No. The caps are strictly based on the amount wagered. It would be up to the player to decide from which set of wagers (5 $2.00 wagers; 5 $5.00 wagers; and 5 $10.00 wagers) to back a given horse while attempting to maximise his/her edge. .

This format would probably work better in a tournament in which players can make their selections up until post time as the players would know the actual odds, well.... maybe close to it, and pick which amount to play the horse according to odds and perceived edge. It may not be as appropriate for a tournament in which the players would have to submit all of their plays prior to the start of the tournament. It could still work but the players would be guessing as to the actual post time odds and would probably be using the ML odds as a guide.

This method may not be perfect but it at least allows for the players to leverage their resources as part of an overall strategy that takes into account, among other considerations, strength of opinion.

[kid4rilla]

Whatever wagering is allowed at the track on that race, but with a bankroll where you can tap out. Too many contests allow stupid betting on longshots. You should be able to tap out relatively early on.
Say 1 day, 9 races - wps/dd/ex/trix/p3/p4/p6 but a $50 bank. Focu on actually handicapping a winner rather than shotgunning long shots.

This should be the format for the NHC. Allowing vertical and horizontal players to do what they wish with the same amount of money to try and get the most return. It is a lot like the reality of the track, without the advantage of having a big stack.

Sounds like fun.

[jackosnaps]

Not sure, if this is the correct post to ask a question, though very newbie on handicapping, well certainly want to play and get insight on how to pick and consider the pick.

Can anyone guide me where are the top contests available (looking for free fun to play contests only) on the web.

[NTamm1215]

This should be the format for the NHC. Allowing vertical and horizontal players to do what they wish with the same amount of money to try and get the most return. It is a lot like the reality of the track, without the advantage of having a big stack.

Sounds like fun.

You want to have the pools open to everyone and only give them $50?

The NHC format can be improved upon but I think the biggest issue with it is the size. It's not long enough and one "cap" horse can put someone over the top. I found the 3-day Horseplayer World Series much better because you can actually get some separation.

NT

[Immanuel Kant]

Is the best handicapper the one who picks the most winners or the one who makes the most money?

Once you have answered that question you'll know what type of format to run.

My preference (and I've played in a lot of contests) is to simulate a day at the track as close as possible....

Rules:

1) Every player gets $200 bankroll
2) Contest starts at 1st post of the day (East Coast)
3) Contest ends after last race of the day is over (West Coast)
4) Any wager allowed at the track is OK
5) Largest bankroll wins.

You wish to extend the contest....just one favour. Allow the bankrolls to continue after Day 1......at Woodbine this year in a 2 day NHC qualifier we were not allowed to roll-over our Day 1 bankrolls. They counted when totalled with Day 2, but were not available to bet with on Day 2 (we were given a fresh bankroll).

[Bobzilla]

You want to have the pools open to everyone and only give them $50?

The NHC format can be improved upon but I think the biggest issue with it is the size. It's not long enough and one "cap" horse can put someone over the top. I found the 3-day Horseplayer World Series much better because you can actually get some separation.

NT


I would prefer to see the NHC go to three days rather than two. The NTRA pays for three nights of accomodations (most host qualifying sites pay for transportation) so an extra night for 300 players might be beyond what they want to spend. I do agree that results over three days might be perceived as being more credible.

An interesting wrinkle with the HPWS tournament at The Orleans is that the first $2 for both the $20 win and $20 place wagers pay full track odds. The remaining $18 wagered are graded with the price caps of 19/1 and 9/1 respectively.

[RainMan]

I have always thought that the NHC should be a Thursday/Saturday tournament with Friday off as a study day. It is impossible to effectively prepare, study and watch replays for around 70 potential races given just an overnight and morning while still being mentally sharp enough to make good decisions come late Sat. afternoon.

[Pell Mell]

Is the best handicapper the one who picks the most winners or the one who makes the most money?

Once you have answered that question you'll know what type of format to run.

My preference (and I've played in a lot of contests) is to simulate a day at the track as close as possible....

Rules:

1) Every player gets $200 bankroll
2) Contest starts at 1st post of the day (East Coast)
3) Contest ends after last race of the day is over (West Coast)
4) Any wager allowed at the track is OK
5) Largest bankroll wins.

You wish to extend the contest....just one favour. Allow the bankrolls to continue after Day 1......at Woodbine this year in a 2 day NHC qualifier we were not allowed to roll-over our Day 1 bankrolls. They counted when totalled with Day 2, but were not available to bet with on Day 2 (we were given a fresh bankroll).

This is the only format that makes sense to me. As a player, isn't the object to make money? What does a contest prove?

A question about item #4, does this mean one must bet only that track or any track that they handle?

[Robert Fischer]

Is the best handicapper the one who picks the most winners or the one who makes the most money?

Once you have answered that question you'll know what type of format to run.

My preference (and I've played in a lot of contests) is to simulate a day at the track as close as possible....

Rules:

1) Every player gets $200 bankroll
2) Contest starts at 1st post of the day (East Coast)
3) Contest ends after last race of the day is over (West Coast)
4) Any wager allowed at the track is OK
5) Largest bankroll wins.

You wish to extend the contest....just one favour. Allow the bankrolls to continue after Day 1......at Woodbine this year in a 2 day NHC qualifier we were not allowed to roll-over our Day 1 bankrolls. They counted when totalled with Day 2, but were not available to bet with on Day 2 (we were given a fresh bankroll).

Live bankroll contests like this are the best IMO as well. Skill should be emphasized.

[kid4rilla]

You want to have the pools open to everyone and only give them $50?

The NHC format can be improved upon but I think the biggest issue with it is the size. It's not long enough and one "cap" horse can put someone over the top. I found the 3-day Horseplayer World Series much better because you can actually get some separation.

NT

Doesn't matter as long as you all start with the same chucks. I like the $200 amount to start.

Of course the goal is to accumulate the most money. It would be better for the state of the game as well. What sounds better to those on the outside looking in?

"The 2010 champion turned his $20 into a whopping $140 dollars to take the prize."

or

"Chris Moneymaker, the 2010 champion turned his $200 into $46,000 to take the prize"

[NTamm1215]

Doesn't matter as long as you all start with the same chucks. I like the $200 amount to start.

Of course the goal is to accumulate the most money. It would be better for the state of the game as well. What sounds better to those on the outside looking in?

"The 2010 champion turned his $20 into a whopping $140 dollars to take the prize."

or

"Chris Moneymaker, the 2010 champion turned his $200 into $46,000 to take the prize"

John Conte, last year's winner, turned his $400 entry fee to the Belmont Spring Handicapping Challenge into $500,000.

NT

[kid4rilla]

John Conte, last year's winner, turned his $400 entry fee to the Belmont Spring Handicapping Challenge into $500,000.

NT

Yeah, sounds better.

But I mean to those on the outside looking at a single contest day, who sees what is possible with cash on one race day.

[bpiets]

$10.00 A DAY CONTEST....5 DIFFERENT $2.00 BETS WITH A CHOICE OF ANY BET FOR THE SELECTED CARD OF RACING...( TRACK )....lol...