Rebate question

[misscashalot]

I have no knowledge of rebates

For betting win only, what is the highest negative roi a player can have and still churn a profit using rebates? and how much would he have to bet yearly?
And the name(s) of such shop(s)

How does betting exotics change the picture?

[Jeff P]

The answer is: It Depends.

Each ADW or "shop" has to sign a signal contract allowing them to carry a track signal. The signal contract can be between the "shop" and a single track. It can also be between a "shop" and a group of tracks.

The wholesale cost of the signal ultimately determines the amount of the rebate.

The higher the wholesale cost of the signal, the less room margin-wise the ADW or "shop" has when it comes to determining how much they can reasonably afford to rebate back to the customer.

As a general rule, the more popular the track signal, the more likely it is that the track will try to force higher wholesale signal costs into the signal contract signed between the track and the shop.

There are other factors at play. Sometimes tracks and horsemen will introduce something called "source market fee" into the signal contract. If a bettor is unfortunate enough to live within a "source market area" defined by the track and horsemen - language in the signal contract drives the wholesale cost of the signal so high that the "shop" can't afford to rebate anything back to the customer.

Two examples of this off the top of my head are state laws enacted in California and Virginia where the entire state is defined as the source market area.

An example... Let's say a "shop" has two customers... one who lives in Kentucky and another who lives in California.

Because of "source market" the "shop" offering rebates quickly discovers that the wholesale cost of the signal is prohibitively higher for the California customer compared to the Kentucky customer... The end result being that the California customer would realistically have to move to a different state if he (or she) wanted rebates.

Throw in another facet. The tracks and horsemen don't want the "shops" advertising the fact that rebates are available. That's why you don't see ADWs listing rate schedules on their sites. "Shops" know that if they were to get caught doing that they could face action from a track... such as a track pulling it's signal from the "shop." Tracks and horsemen seem to want to keep bettors in the dark about rebates.

Sound complicated so far?... That's because it is.

I'll try and simplify it.

Players seeking rebates will find that eligibility is determined by two things:

1. State of Residence

2. Handle

Rebate percentages are determined primarily by one thing:

The wholesale cost of the signal.

As a player, when you do business at a "shop" you will normally be presented with a rate schedule outlining the rebate percentage (or rate) for each specific wager type at each specific track.

Because the takeout is higher on exotics vs. straight bets like WPS... there is more room margin-wise for the "shop" for exotics than straight wagers - Therefore rates tend to be much higher on exotics than on straight bets.

To answer your specific question: For betting win only, what is the highest negative roi a player can have and still churn a profit using rebates? and how much would he have to bet yearly?The highest rates that I've seen offered by "shops" for win are on track signals like Kentucky Downs, Turfway, and Yavapai... and the lowest rates for win are offered on track signals like Santa Anita, Churchill, and NYRA.

Out of respect for the "shops"... I'm not going to post their names or actual rates. If I did that I could land them in trouble with the tracks that they carry.

Bottom line about rebates is this:

If you live in an eligible state and meet min handle requirements you are eligible for rebates.

If you are a player looking for rebates and could use some help navigating the waters...

Contact me privately... either by PM or by email,

I'll be happy to answer questions in more detail.


-jp

.

[Saratoga_Mike]

To answer your specific question: The highest rates that I've seen offered by "shops" for win are on track signals like Kentucky Downs, Turfway, and Yavapai... and the lowest rates for win are offered on track signals like Santa Anita, Churchill, and NYRA.


Bottom line about rebates is this:

If you live in an eligible state and meet min handle requirements you are eligible for rebates.

Out of respect for the "shops"... I'm not going to post their names or a typical rate schedule.

If you are a player looking for rebates and could use some help navigating the waters...

Contact me privately... either by PM or by email,

I'll be happy to answer questions in more detail.


-jp

.

If one were to wager $300k/yr in just win bets, what type of rebate might they earn in one of the higher rebate venues? I know you don't want to name the shop, which I understand, but I'm just looking for a ballpark estimate. 2%? 5% 10%? Thanks.

[misscashalot]

The answer is: It Depends.

Each ADW or "shop" has to sign a signal contract allowing them to carry a track signal. The signal contract can be between the "shop" and a single track. It can also be between a "shop" and a group of tracks.

The wholesale cost of the signal ultimately determines the amount of the rebate.

The higher the wholesale cost of the signal, the less room margin-wise the ADW or "shop" has when it comes to determining how much they can reasonably afford to rebate back to the customer.

As a general rule, the more popular the track signal, the more likely it is that the track will try to force higher wholesale signal costs into the signal contract signed between the track and the shop.

There are other factors at play. Sometimes tracks and horsemen will introduce something called "source market fee" into the signal contract. If a bettor is unfortunate enough to live within a "source market area" defined by the track and horsemen - language in the signal contract drives the wholesale cost of the signal so high that the "shop" can't afford to rebate anything back to the customer.

Two examples of this off the top of my head are state laws enacted in California and Virginia where the entire state is defined as the source market area.

An example... Let's say a "shop" has two customers... one who lives in Kentucky and another who lives in California.

Because of "source market" the "shop" offering rebates quickly discovers that the wholesale cost of the signal is prohibitively higher for the California customer compared to the Kentucky customer... The end result being that the California customer would realistically have to move to a different state if he (or she) wanted rebates.

Throw in another facet. The tracks and horsemen don't want the "shops" advertising the fact that rebates are available. That's why you don't see ADWs listing rate schedules on their sites. "Shops" know that if they were to get caught doing that they could face action from a track... such as a track pulling it's signal from the "shop." Tracks and horsemen seem to want to keep bettors in the dark about rebates.

Sound complicated so far?... That's because it is.

I'll try and simplify it.

Players seeking rebates will find that eligibility is determined by two things:

1. State of Residence

2. Handle

Rebate percentages are determined primarily by one thing:

The wholesale cost of the signal.

As a player, when you do business at a "shop" you will normally be presented with a rate schedule outlining the rebate percentage (or rate) for each specific wager type at each specific track.

Because the takeout is higher on exotics vs. straight bets like WPS... there is more room margin-wise for the "shop" for exotics than straight wagers - Therefore rates tend to be much higher on exotics than on straight bets.

To answer your specific question: The highest rates that I've seen offered by "shops" for win are on track signals like Kentucky Downs, Turfway, and Yavapai... and the lowest rates for win are offered on track signals like Santa Anita, Churchill, and NYRA.

Out of respect for the "shops"... I'm not going to post their names or actual rates. If I did that I could land them in trouble with the tracks that they carry.

Bottom line about rebates is this:

If you live in an eligible state and meet min handle requirements you are eligible for rebates.

If you are a player looking for rebates and could use some help navigating the waters...

Contact me privately... either by PM or by email,

I'll be happy to answer questions in more detail.


-jp

.

Thanks jp. Wow.
My specifics are: Residence of New York and bet only NYRA

[rrbauer]

Thanks jp. Wow.
My specifics are: Residence of New York and bet only NYRA

Your rebates will be slim and none!

[Ian Meyers]

Your rebates will be slim and none!

Geez, I wish Richard wasn't so wishy-washy and would just answer directly :lol:

He's 100% right. With a 16% take and a high signal fee about the best you can do on NYRA is ~3% WPS rebates.