Is It Poly or is it something else?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Wednesday at Woodbine (Total Handle $1,635,771) Field size 10.78
Race and purses
Race 1

Claiming

$40,100
Race 2

Maiden Claiming

$25,100
Race 3

Claiming

$29,800
Race 4

Maiden Claiming

$25,100
Race 5

Maiden Claiming

$17,100
Race 6

Sir Barton Stakes

$125,000
Race 7

Allowance

$62,800
Race 8

Claiming

$21,600
Race 9

Claiming

$25,800
Wednesday at Beulah (Total Handle $1,994,441) Field size 9.78 per race
Race and purses
Race 1

Claiming

$3,800
Race 2

Maiden Special Weight

$6,100
Race 3

Claiming

$4,000
Race 4

Claiming

$4,800
Race 5

Claiming

$5,100
Race 6

Claiming

$4,000
Race 7

Claiming

$4,200
Race 8

Claiming

$4,000
Race 9

Claiming

$3,800

[Steve 'StatMan']

Was the WO card at night?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Was the WO card at night?
Yes. But they aren't up against much. Wednesday is a light schedule for horse racing. You'd think running up against less competition would yield better results.

[senortout]

only one explanation....Beulah Twins...

no, seriously


Beulah Twins


or could it be day racing vs work-week night racing differences...many may bet from their offices during working hours, who knew?....certainly the quality of racing cannot compare here...forget about your surface angles for half a moment....gheesh!

[andymays]

Both! It's the poly and something else.


I resent TVG showcasing Woodbine. :ThmbDown:

Tracks in the United States need the business.

This internationalization crap rubs many Horseplayers in the U.S. the wrong way. :mad:

[Steve 'StatMan']

When there are few other tracks running, it also means fewer patrons that are attacted by the other tracks that bet more than one track. So get a larger piece of the pie, but a smaller pie to being with.

What night was U.S. President Obama's speech about the updated war plans?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Both! It's the poly and something else.


I resent TVG showcasing Woodbine. :ThmbDown:

Tracks in the United States need the business.

This internationalization crap rubs many Horseplayers in the U.S. the wrong way. :mad:
I never heard the anti-Canadian excuse before. I'm wondering if it is the fact that rebate players can get the the best lower net takeout at Beulah than anywhere else on a Wednesday than any other track.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

When there are few other tracks running, it also means fewer patrons that are attacted by the other tracks that bet more than one track. So get a larger piece of the pie, but a smaller pie to being with.

What night was U.S. President Obama's speech about the updated war plans?
Woodbine always does around 1.6 million on a Wednesday night no matter who they are up against.

[rrbauer]

only one explanation....Beulah Twins...

no, seriously


Beulah Twins


or could it be day racing vs work-week night racing differences...many may bet from their offices during working hours, who knew?....certainly the quality of racing cannot compare here...forget about your surface angles for half a moment....gheesh!

Yeah, but Chantal is at Woodbine!

[RichieP]

I resent TVG showcasing Woodbine. :ThmbDown:



Why???

Woodbine has without doubt the best extended race meet in this hemisphere along with VERY accurate data.

If you are saying such garbage tracks as Tup and Yav that deserve absolutely ZERO dollars from anyone(imo) should get the TVG airtime instead than I disagree totally.

Woodbine for win bettors(less than 17%rake) rocks and they have a quality product on a polytrack that is done RIGHT.

my 2c
:)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Why???

Woodbine has without doubt the best extended race meet in this hemisphere along with VERY accurate data.

If you are saying such garbage tracks as Tup and Yav that deserve absolutely ZERO dollars from anyone(imo) should get the TVG airtime instead than I disagree totally.

Woodbine for win bettors(less than 17%rake) rocks and they have a quality product on a polytrack that is done RIGHT.

my 2c
:)
For win betting I'd rather play at Betfair. I play exotics. Does Woodbine rock when it comes to betting exotics?

[andymays]

Why???

Woodbine has without doubt the best extended race meet in this hemisphere along with VERY accurate data.

If you are saying such garbage tracks as Tup and Yav that deserve absolutely ZERO dollars from anyone(imo) should get the TVG airtime instead than I disagree totally.

Woodbine for win bettors(less than 17%rake) rocks and they have a quality product on a polytrack that is done RIGHT.

my 2c
:)


It was just my guess and nothing more. Nothing against Canadians! :) Everything against Poly! ;)

[46zilzal]

Yeah, but Chantal is at Woodbine!
yes she is.

I interact regularly with members of the Jockey Club of Canada, Thoroughbred Hall of Fame at Woodbine, as well as Woodbine Entertainment: they are all class acts.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

yes she is.

I interact regularly with members of the Jockey Club of Canada, Thoroughbred Hall of Fame at Woodbine, as well as Woodbine Entertainment: they are all class acts.
In other words, they don't understand the horseplayer.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Willmot to step down at Woodbine Entertainment: http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/12-4-09/willmot-step-down-weg-ceo.html

Maybe this will open the door to the growth of horse racing in Ontario.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Woodbine.....

High takeout

They stick a gun in their core customers side when robbing them on their simulcast takeout rates

They refuse rebate bettors

They charge more than avg for their simulcast signal

Polycrap


Beulah......

Their signal is open to everybody

They charge a very low host fee so rebates are great

Dirt


Basically....Woodbine makes almost every bettor....1. Alter their play as to avoid exotics......2. Feel like they were robbed when betting simulcasts....3. Not be able to bet their product.....4. Decide that they might not want to bet on Polycrap...or 5. feel like they are a necessary evil and not valued when they can't just bet and feel good about betting there.

Beulah just says....bring it on even though our races are crap, our track is crap and we have nothing to offer except we try to have a fair betting deal for all.

[RichieP]

For win betting I'd rather play at Betfair. I play exotics. Does Woodbine rock when it comes to betting exotics?

NO they do not but it means nothing to ME as I am a 100% win bettor when I play "HB".

Woodbine has the lowest % of winning favs at any extended thoro meet and that's a good thing for a wagercapper like myself.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I really done know as I am a 100% win bettor when I play "HB".

Woodbine has the lowest % of winning favs at any extended thoro meet and that's a good thing for a wagercapper like myself.
You could get better odds on Woodbine winners playing Betfair most of the time.

[RichieP]

You could get better odds on Woodbine winners playing Betfair most of the time.

Really? I honestly don't understand this Betfair thing but if it is open to folks in NY I am game to look into it man.

Thanks :)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Really? I honestly don't understand this Betfair thing but if it is open to folks in NY I am game to look into it man.

Thanks :)
Yes they generally pay more because the average takeout is only around 3%.
Now the bad news. Canadians can play but Americans can't.

[RichieP]

Canadians can play but Americans can't.

Ah now the fog lifts. Thanks

[Steve 'StatMan']

Maybe Wednesday Night TB cards aren't a good idea anymore. Might handle more during the daytime.

[Stillriledup]

Just say no to Woodbine.

[WinterTriangle]

This internationalization crap rubs many Horseplayers in the U.S. the wrong way. :mad:

You're kidding, right? :confused:

Racing developed in the UK with the introduction of Arab stallions brought back from the Crusades in the 12th Century Or did you think the the Darley Arabian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darley_Arabian), the Godolphin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godolphin), and the Byerly Turk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byerly_Turk) were US creations? The "sport of kings" wasn't named that because it's a US creation. We don't have kings.

As a matter of fact, the US was a bit "late to the party". The American Stud Book wasn't even started until 1868, which prompted the beginning of organized horse racing.

Whereas, the UK Jockey Club was the first governing body for the sport as we know it today, founded in the 1750's. Australia's first country racing club was established at Wallabadah in 1852. Mauritius inaugurated their first race track in 1812. Horse racing in South Africa can be traced back to 1797. Horse racing in South Korea traces back to May 1898. India's first derby was in 1842.

There are stories about in Norse mythology about racing, and Arabians raced back in 1500 B.C.



You sound like one of those people who think they "invented the internet". :lol: And now, you don't want anyone else playing on your network.:bang:

[andymays]

You're kidding, right? :confused:

Racing developed in the UK with the introduction of Arab stallions brought back from the Crusades in the 12th Century Or did you think the the Darley Arabian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darley_Arabian), the Godolphin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godolphin), and the Byerly Turk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byerly_Turk) were US creations? The "sport of kings" wasn't named that because it's a US creation. We don't have kings.

As a matter of fact, the US was a bit "late to the party". The American Stud Book wasn't even started until 1868, which prompted the beginning of organized horse racing.

Whereas, the UK Jockey Club was the first governing body for the sport as we know it today, founded in the 1750's. Australia's first country racing club was established at Wallabadah in 1852. Mauritius inaugurated their first race track in 1812. Horse racing in South Africa can be traced back to 1797. Horse racing in South Korea traces back to May 1898. India's first derby was in 1842.

There are stories about in Norse mythology about racing, and Arabians raced back in 1500 B.C.



You sound like one of those people who think they "invented the internet". :lol: And now, you don't want anyone else playing on your network.:bang:


Not kidding about my statement. Right or wrong many Horseplayers feel that way.

[Trotman]

Andymays LISTEN to Richie P he is on the money. I agree there are a lot of tracks in the US in trouble including their gem in Harness The Meadowlands, and word the last three years has WEG ready to jump in and save it under their banner though I don't know if this is still their plan.

[andymays]

Andymays LISTEN to Richie P he is on the money. I agree there are a lot of tracks in the US in trouble including their gem in Harness The Meadowlands, and word the last three years has WEG ready to jump in and save it under their banner though I don't know if this is still their plan.


Too many tracks and not enough handle to go around.

I was thinking last night that one possible reason for the decline in wagering could be the fact that a lot more people buy the PP's on line. The DRF from the liquor store had 4 or 5 tracks in it but when you buy them on line you tend to buy and print only one or two tracks. Then you think about the cost of ink as well. A very small factor but a factor nonetheless.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Andymays LISTEN to Richie P he is on the money. I agree there are a lot of tracks in the US in trouble including their gem in Harness The Meadowlands, and word the last three years has WEG ready to jump in and save it under their banner though I don't know if this is still their plan.
WEG won't even step in to help Fort Erie. They aren't going to save US tracks.

[Trotman]

HPBET, Why would they help Fort Erie? Back in the late 70's the OJC as they were known then decided to downsize their product with the closing of Garden City their Niagara area harness track,land sold for cash. Next up was Fort Erie,as much as they didn't want to they had an offer they could'nt refuse,sold. In 93 they sold Greenwood to developers for mega bucks,again planning for the future and lining their vaults with cash. Then the transformation of Woodbine as a dual facility with a 7/8's harness track and the rebuilding of Mohawk also a 7/8"s track,point being they had foresight where racing was going so they two tracks handling all their business with cash to buy for future where it fits into their business plan,like any good business would do. :)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

HPBET, Why would they help Fort Erie? Back in the late 70's the OJC as they were known then decided to downsize their product with the closing of Garden City their Niagara area harness track,land sold for cash. Next up was Fort Erie,as much as they didn't want to they had an offer they could'nt refuse,sold. In 93 they sold Greenwood to developers for mega bucks,again planning for the future and lining their vaults with cash. Then the transformation of Woodbine as a dual facility with a 7/8's harness track and the rebuilding of Mohawk also a 7/8"s track,point being they had foresight where racing was going so they two tracks handling all their business with cash to buy for future where it fits into their business plan,like any good business would do. :)
My point is that they aren't about to help any US tracks. Had they held on to Fort Erie, things would have been much different today. The track was sold for a dollar and assumption of a million in debt. Within a few years the new owners made 17 million their end in slots one year.
Had Woodbine owned it, I doubt it would be losing money these days, and not in trouble of closing down, because if it was under the same umbrella, purses would be good enough the quality of racing there would be much better, and they could have more flexibility when it comes to running more quality Stake races, plus they could market HPI better to the Niagara Region. Right now, it isn't worth the effort for Fort Erie to, or HPI to because of the way profits are split.

[Trotman]

HPBET, that's horse s*** if for one minute you think what WEG is doing is wrong then fine, but the bottom line is the bottom line. This started years ago with Frank Stronach when he rubbed the directors the wrong way saying they had no vision. That was a wake up call for Willmot and all the other silver spoon babies. They kicked Stronach off the board of directors realizing his vision was somewhat right and revamped everything. I did not say that they we're going to save US racing, but that they had reason to buy the Swamp and have a strangle hold on the Harness product. :bang:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

HPBET, that's horse s*** if for one minute you think what WEG is doing is wrong then fine, but the bottom line is the bottom line. This started years ago with Frank Stronach when he rubbed the directors the wrong way saying they had no vision. That was a wake up call for Willmot and all the other silver spoon babies. They kicked Stronach off the board of directors realizing his vision was somewhat right and revamped everything. I did not say that they we're going to save US racing, but that they had reason to buy the Swamp and have a strangle hold on the Harness product. :bang:
They have more reason to have a strangle hold on thoroughbred racing in Ontario.
Without Fort Erie, owners will have very few outs if their horse can't compete at Woodbine. This will create an even lower demand for horses in Ontario, as well as less owners, and all this as an enormous impact on growth overall.

Their number one concern to me would be at least maintaining the status quo in Ontario before they worried about a stranglehold on the jugheads.

In other words, I don't expect them to do anything regarding Meadowlands or Fort Erie. But if they were to do anything, it would be something to do with Fort Erie.

[Trotman]

HPBET, You have you're opinion and I have mine that's why we have forums such as this to debate. But in the big picture down the road we will see how this plays out. Don't for one moment short change what WEG values as important, trust me they do not divide their product and their product is Woodbine / Mohawk both breeds one company. :)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

HPBET, You have you're opinion and I have mine that's why we have forums such as this to debate. But in the big picture down the road we will see how this plays out. Don't for one moment short change what WEG values as important, trust me they do not divide their product and their product is Woodbine / Mohawk both breeds one company. :)
We'll see. The reality is horse racing is dying, and Woodbine has been able to just hang on without growing their fan base.

It has been run by people born with a silver spoon in every orifice who are out of touch with not only the bettors, but the small owners and trainers.

I don't see expansion of their empire outside of casino games on the properties they own.

[Trotman]

No Mas, No Mas as Roberto Duran was claimed to have said. With that know-it-all attitude HPBET I wouldn't do business with you. You have quite demonstrated to all of your customers that if you don't like it shove it, so be it.
I'm done have a battle of wits with someone totally unarmed.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Any horseplayer with an ounce of pride or dignity that is educated in the ways of Woodbine and the people who are in charge of it would have to take a hot shower for at least an hour to wash all the filthy slime off if they made a bet on their product.

[Trotman]

Inside the Nylons or whatever another narrow minded view, or should I say uninformed view.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

No Mas, No Mas as Roberto Duran was claimed to have said. With that know-it-all attitude HPBET I wouldn't do business with you. You have quite demonstrated to all of your customers that if you don't like it shove it, so be it.
I'm done have a battle of wits with someone totally unarmed.
Talk about projection.
I didn't tell you to shove it. I just gave my opinion and you gave yours. And we don't agree with each other.
If you ask my customers how they are treated, you won't hear a bad word.
Don't do business with me. It is your loss.

[Trotman]

HPBET, we really heated it up down the stretch, this post has been going for a spell. It was totally unwarranted for me to speak about HPBET the way I did. I know nothing about your product or method or the way you treat your customers and shame on me. :)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

HPBET, we really heated it up down the stretch, this post has been going for a spell. It was totally unwarranted for me to speak about HPBET the way I did. I know nothing about your product or method or the way you treat your customers and shame on me. :)
No problem. I really don't think it was heated, at least on my end. I just stated my opinion. I didn't call you names or curse.
I just don't see WEG expanding their harness empire. Horse racing is in the pits right now and harness racing is really in the dumps. So much so that harness racing may become the leader when it comes to reducing takeout to get their game going again. And the reality is that lowering takeout is not something WEG seems to give a hoot about.

[Trotman]

HPBET, With everything there comes change,and with this passing the torch this June, Willmot stepping down if you look back in History with WEG they always have made a move the industry sits up and takes a look at. This way if it fails the new guy gets axed when all along Willmot will be running the puppet show off of the main stage. Then WEG releases the statement that Willmot has to step back in the picture to straighten things out, and HE ALWAYS DOES IT WITH A BIG SPLASH. Don't get me wrong their is a ton of things they do wrong with their noses up in the air to the customer, but I'm hearing some change is in the wind and don't be surprized if it plays out the way I've said.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

HPBET, With everything there comes change,and with this passing the torch this June, Willmot stepping down if you look back in History with WEG they always have made a move the industry sits up and takes a look at. This way if it fails the new guy gets axed when all along Willmot will be running the puppet show off of the main stage. Then WEG releases the statement that Willmot has to step back in the picture to straighten things out, and HE ALWAYS DOES IT WITH A BIG SPLASH. Don't get me wrong their is a ton of things they do wrong with their noses up in the air to the customer, but I'm hearing some change is in the wind and don't be surprized if it plays out the way I've said.
I think at 59, Willmot is through (he doesn't need the stress anymore). I've been told he has had some health issues as well.
Eaves is only 41, the same as as the tail end of the last surge of horseplayers racing was able to attract with any reasonable success.
Will he change the philosophy of WEG and make it a customer first business, instead of WEG exec, and big horse owner first? Time will tell.

Willmot came in when Woodbine was heavily in debt. Right after they closed Greenwood. They were forced to sell paintings in the director's room at Woodbine to pay off debt.

He sold Fort Erie in 1997, while starting up HPI phone betting the same year. He apparently didn't have the foresight of the impact of slots which came into the picture 2 years later or Fort Erie would not have been sold. It was a huge mistake for the OJC to have sold the Fort, and it may play out its hand next year if the Fort doesn't open for business.

They successfully lobbied to get the government taxes on each bet to get reduced from over 8% to 1.3 percent. But they kept the takeouts the same, which was a huge mistake, as it really killed growth, and they missed the boat on a whole generation of new potential horseplayers as competition sprouted in the forms of more lotteries, poker, and online sports bookies.

If not for slots, Willmot wouldn't have lasted longer than 5 or 6 years.

I hope change is in the wind. But it is going to have to have a lot to do with reducing takeouts in a major way if change is going to work.

[Trotman]

HPBET You must be from around the WEG scene the way that the names and hell the FORT roll off you're tongue. They had a man Hugh Mitchell running Standardbreds a few years back and he left to run Western Fair. Word has it Hugh had to get out because he was too open door to the customers and WEG did'nt like it. Well he took Frank Salive the voice of Standardbred racing with him and they all did ok. Hugh knew of Frank's down the road plans to go south and he did this year calling the races at Pompano,but Hugh needed to get the show off on the right foot. The guy had vision which WEG did'nt like, an employee showing up the boss.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

HPBET You must be from around the WEG scene the way that the names and hell the FORT roll off you're tongue. They had a man Hugh Mitchell running Standardbreds a few years back and he left to run Western Fair. Word has it Hugh had to get out because he was too open door to the customers and WEG did'nt like it. Well he took Frank Salive the voice of Standardbred racing with him and they all did ok. Hugh knew of Frank's down the road plans to go south and he did this year calling the races at Pompano,but Hugh needed to get the show off on the right foot. The guy had vision which WEG did'nt like, an employee showing up the boss.
I spoke to Hugh on the phone years ago. I remember he was very up on when peak betting occurred and things like that. But he was still toting the company line when discussing takeouts.

[Trotman]

It was their way or the highway at WEG, I'll give Hugh a call next week and have a chat.

[fmolf]

More and more tracks are going to be closing shop in the next five years in my opinion.This i believe will be good for racing in the long run.There will be better horses being trained by better trainers and perhaps as handle goes up at the surviving tracks takeout might be reduced to further attract new monies to the game!...One can dream can't one?.... :D ....contraction is imminent though.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It was their way or the highway at WEG, I'll give Hugh a call next week and have a chat.
I'm pretty sure it was Hugh Mitchell who answered a letter I wrote around 1988 or 1989 saying they should put up probable payoffs for the Win 4.
I gave a couple of good reasons. 1. It might promote more betting from a player who was alive on a few horses to bet on a saver or two. 2. That the people who didn't hit the Pick 4's last leg after being alive after 3 legs would have a story to tell people at home or at work of coulda woulda shoulda, which would help promote horse racing outside the race track.

I was told they didn't have the technology to do so, which I found odd considering I also wrote that the technology should exist because they are able to show daily double probables, so why not Win 4 probables?

Shortly after my letter, probables were posted.