McLaughlin: "I would not compromise"......

[Hanover1]

In light of his suspension for 3 positives (sub nanogram amounts is no argument), McLaughlin states: "I would not compromise the sport I love".
So are we to agree that using it on everything in the barn is not a compromise? hmmm...... (From a fellow horseman who is tired of guessing who is clean and who is not).

[the_fat_man]

C-H-E-A-T-E-R

He can spin it any way he wants but, to anyone who follows the game closely, the dude has/had an EDGE. That much is obvious. You'd think that someone who gets the best of stock wouldn't need to resort to cheating. Then again, Pletcher has shown us that good stock doesn't mean fair play.

Now that this fraud (good guy) is exposed, we can return to our regularly scheduled activities.

[Bochall]

This is frustrating me as well and I have a question: how much time is the trainer of record actually in his horses' company? Is it plausible that an underling with wagering on his mind can administer this stuff and cash without the boss knowing? Sorry if this is an elementary question and thx for any info.

[Hanover1]

This is frustrating me as well and I have a question: how much time is the trainer of record actually in his horses' company? Is it plausible that an underling with wagering on his mind can administer this stuff and cash without the boss knowing? Sorry if this is an elementary question and thx for any info.
A trainer of record is usually in the company of 20 to 30 at a time. Any more than that, and he cannot possibly administer a watchful eye/insight on to every mount in any given morning, and call himself responsible on any level. In that light, to answer your question, it is plausible, however devastating to the career if caught, and the "boss" will most certainly figure it out in due time. The confrence calls in early A.M. amongst assistants and lead trainers with satellite sheds reveal details of any misdeeds for the most part. Vet bills are not hard to audit.

[illinoisbred]

This is frustrating me as well and I have a question: how much time is the trainer of record actually in his horses' company? Is it plausible that an underling with wagering on his mind can administer this stuff and cash without the boss knowing? Sorry if this is an elementary question and thx for any info.
I these cases probably none. His Keeneland string was handled by his brother, but ultimately KM is responsible. As far as anyone else administering- that's what they all say when caught.

[Hanover1]

C-H-E-A-T-E-R

He can spin it any way he wants but, to anyone who follows the game closely, the dude has/had an EDGE. That much is obvious. You'd think that someone who gets the best of stock wouldn't need to resort to cheating. Then again, Pletcher has shown us that good stock doesn't mean fair play.

Now that this fraud (good guy) is exposed, we can return to our regularly scheduled activities.
Pletcher has shown me that good stock doesn't mean winning many classics.

[Bochall]

Kinda like steroids in baseball. Some users you suspect(McGwire,Sosa) and others catch you off guard (Petitte). But the paranoia, at least on my part, is the same...is EVERYONE who is winning doing this? Even Shug? Mandella? Shireffs? Cowboy Larry? The evidence is there in the numbers (like baseball-Brady Anderson is NOT a 50HR guy!) so do we take a closer look at all barns that are moving horses way up and winning like crazy? And more importantly, how do we legally justify the closer scrutiny? Suspicion alone probably aint enough to get the extra testing/monitoring needed. Maybe after a violation the barn is subject to close monitoring of their operation.

[DeanT]

In light of his suspension for 3 positives (sub nanogram amounts is no argument), McLaughlin states: "I would not compromise the sport I love".
So are we to agree that using it on everything in the barn is not a compromise? hmmm...... (From a fellow horseman who is tired of guessing who is clean and who is not).

I guess it is an age-old question for all of us - is giving horses therapeutic drugs between starts to help with allergens (a huge problem as you know) or dust and so on an intent to do harm to the sport? Is it good horsemanship, or cheating, when trace positives occur, which are sure to be timing errors?

What do you think as a horseman? Should intent be the number one factor in meting out punishment, or should we have zero tolerance for class three's or four's which are surely to be timing errors?

[LottaKash]

Kinda like steroids in baseball. Some users you suspect(McGwire,Sosa) and others catch you off guard (Petitte). But the paranoia, at least on my part, is the same...is EVERYONE who is winning doing this? Even Shug? Mandella? Shireffs? Cowboy Larry? The evidence is there in the numbers (like baseball-Brady Anderson is NOT a 50HR guy!) so do we take a closer look at all barns that are moving horses way up and winning like crazy? And more importantly, how do we legally justify the closer scrutiny? Suspicion alone probably aint enough to get the extra testing/monitoring needed. Maybe after a violation the barn is subject to close monitoring of their operation.

OR, ban "DRUGS" altogether, period....!!!...Problem solved....:jump:

best,

[TurfRuler]

In light of his suspension for 3 positives (sub nanogram amounts is no argument), McLaughlin states: "I would not compromise the sport I love".
So are we to agree that using it on everything in the barn is not a compromise? hmmm...... (From a fellow horseman who is tired of guessing who is clean and who is not).

"Well, you never know what's going on right under your nose, do you?"
Dick Francis

[11cashcall]

C-H-E-A-T-E-R

He can spin it any way he wants but, to anyone who follows the game closely, the dude has/had an EDGE. That much is obvious. You'd think that someone who gets the best of stock wouldn't need to resort to cheating. Then again, Pletcher has shown us that good stock doesn't mean fair play.

Now that this fraud (good guy) is exposed, we can return to our regularly scheduled activities.


I remember when Godolphin changed vets a while back & the majority of the barn turned around,Suroor's win % particulairly in NYRA increased.Not saying that this maybe the case.However a fact often overlooked by the public.

[illinoisbred]

OR, ban "DRUGS" altogether, period....!!!...Problem solved....:jump:

best,
I'm all for that. But what happens then- horses running just a few times a year?

[OTM Al]

OR, ban "DRUGS" altogether, period....!!!...Problem solved....:jump:

best,

Good idea. So when a million dollar animal gets sick, they should just let it suffer and die. Drug positives do not always mean an intent to cheat any more than negatives indicate that the trainer is squeaky clean. As bad as the drug issue is it seems to be one of the least understood issues as well.

[Bochall]

I hear ya!...Germany has tight rules (go figure) like that. You may not breed a horse in Germany if he/she has ever raced on medication like bute, lasix etc...Short term our horses will suck but long term its whats needed. Then we will find out who the real sires are. Trainers too.

[illinoisbred]

Sick, ailing horses need to be removed from the backstretch.

[LottaKash]

Good idea. So when a million dollar animal gets sick, they should just let it suffer and die. Drug positives do not always mean an intent to cheat any more than negatives indicate that the trainer is squeaky clean. As bad as the drug issue is it seems to be one of the least understood issues as well.

I'm not saying that at all....When they are sick, of course medicate, if that will work....I am saying that if an animal is not "fit" to race, then he shouldn't be racing, that's all....No drugs, when fit...period...


best,

[johnhannibalsmith]

I guess it is an age-old question for all of us - is giving horses therapeutic drugs between starts to help with allergens (a huge problem as you know) or dust and so on an intent to do harm to the sport? Is it good horsemanship, or cheating, when trace positives occur, which are sure to be timing errors?

What do you think as a horseman? Should intent be the number one factor in meting out punishment, or should we have zero tolerance for class three's or four's which are surely to be timing errors?

I must admit, as is usual for me, I jumped all over the guy when it was first reported figuring he was another blemish on my industry.

Having read his mea culpa, I was actually impressed.

Now I've used plenty of therapeutic medications between races and in preparation for races without having been in violation, so I'm not calling for any exoneration or even changing the 'zero-tolerance' policies per se.

But in this inane universe where a premium is placed upon the due-process of the accused at the expense of those that aren't accused - I found it refreshing that he assumed responsibility and took the punishment despite taking exception with the policy that quanitifies the overage as a violation.

For the loveofpeter, we have (someone) running horses that has seven lidocaine positives pending and is claiming that they were 'set-up'; flagrantly using their well-intended rights of appeal to simply buy time to fleece those around them before the inevitable hits... and unfortunately, the inevitable is likely to be a handful of months rather than a life sentence.

This crap happens constantly.

Personally, I'd like to see penalties for serious offenses amended to provide for decades or centuries of suspensions upon an ultimate finding of culpability and then grant the Commisions the latitude to significantly abridge those penalties for those that assume responsibility at the time of hearing, as KM did in this case.

The people that stand to 'lose less' by using an attorney as a shield than by taking the heat would be far less inclined to take that winning gamble as a primary course of conduct.

I may not be in love with the thought of learning that my peers are violating the rules, but I do love the thought of them actually taking responsibility for it when it happens.

It may not be the final destination in fixing this problem with the sport, but it would be, in my opinion, a huge leap in the right direction.

[OTM Al]

Problem is that you will get positives sometimes from drugs that were legitimately given to a sick horse because they haven't left the animal's system even when it is well enough to run. Now I agree that horses should not be racing even with Lasix or Bute, but my only point here is that when you hear of a positive, it doesn't mean the trainer is neccessarily a cheat because certain drugs are quite legitimate in their use

[DeanT]

John,

If you loved that mea culpa, how about Dick Clark?

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_headlines.asp?id=&s=&article=577

“I screwed up,” Clark said. “It’s nobody’s fault but mine. … It was just a communication problem. It was just a misunderstanding between me and [the groom]. I’m still responsible whether he did [understand] or not.”

One of my favorites.

Question: For the drug KM was caught with in trace, and as has happened with others (Zito for a 1 or 2 picogram violation several years ago which would not performance enhance a small fruit fly), I wonder - how do you feel about threshold levels? In ILL KM's thing might have been zero days for trace, while in KY it is 30 days. Somewhere else it could be 100 days. Would you like to see the same everywhere? And what about trace/trace levels uniform as well? Can we not help the sport having one set of threshold limits in this day and age where a test can see a picogram of something? I mean that is 1/1 trillionth of a gram, and that seems pretty weird to throw someone under the bus for to me; esp since we have some bad people out there doing some bad things we have to get rid of for good.

[lamboguy]

this guy just got 30 days. give them all 30 years and see how much better the sport will do. if it was a guy that had 2 horses in their stall and never won that guy wouldhave got 12 double life sentences and if they live that long they would need to go in front of a board to prove their eligibility

[johnhannibalsmith]

....
Question: For the drug KM was caught with in trace, and as has happened with others (Zito for a 1 or 2 picogram violation several years ago which would not performance enhance a small fruit fly), I wonder - how do you feel about threshold levels? In ILL KM's thing might have been zero days for trace, while in KY it is 30 days. Somewhere else it could be 100 days. Would you like to see the same everywhere? And what about trace/trace levels uniform as well? Can we not help the sport having one set of threshold limits in this day and age where a test can see a picogram of something? I mean that is 1/1 trillionth of a gram, and that seems pretty weird to throw someone under the bus for to me; esp since we have some bad people out there doing some bad things we have to get rid of for good.

My thought on uniform policy is essentially this:

I don't know how I feel about it.

I'm always a little bit leery of centralizing authority and policy when the simple solution is very simple: Know the rules.

If a man or woman wishes to race in several jurisdictions then it is his or her duty to be aware of the rules.

I can jump in my car and go to Massachussets, but I know better than to carry a handgun simply because the law in my State permits me to do so. Maybe that isn't a great analogy, and ultimately, what I see as the best end result from uniformity is the elimination of another lame excuse for personal responsibility.

In that sense, if 'confusion' is no longer a permissible defense, than I suppose it has merit. Hell, it has merit anyway, but there's a part of me that likes the individuality of jurisdictional policy and enforcement. There's a part of me that fears that such policies would vanquish racing altogether in certain areas that simply could not find the resources to be in compliance with each and every policy.

Maybe that's a good thing in the long term, but I'd just need to have more reassurances about how particular policies were intended to be imposed and enforced before I would explicitly believe that it would be an inherently positive step. :confused:

[tribecaagent]

Kinda like steroids in baseball. Some users you suspect(McGwire,Sosa) and others catch you off guard (Petitte). But the paranoia, at least on my part, is the same...is EVERYONE who is winning doing this? Even Shug? Mandella? Shireffs? Cowboy Larry? The evidence is there in the numbers (like baseball-Brady Anderson is NOT a 50HR guy!) so do we take a closer look at all barns that are moving horses way up and winning like crazy? And more importantly, how do we legally justify the closer scrutiny? Suspicion alone probably aint enough to get the extra testing/monitoring needed. Maybe after a violation the barn is subject to close monitoring of their operation.

Shug??
What's he using....."don't pass" supplements?

The most overrated trainer in America.

[Bochall]

Shug??
What's he using....."don't pass" supplements?

The most overrated trainer in America.

I would give that award to Neil Howard. His average payoff at FG for the last 10yrs or so has to be around $3.60 with a win % under 10. Dont know why, but folks love to bet Howard.

[nijinski]

Ipratropium Bromide , the drug in question.
I wonder if he was using it for sinus congestion or breathing?

If it was to clear the sinus it seems pretty benign .

I don't believe there is any steroid in this drug , as it's usually added
along with a steroid for people with breathing problems.

Nonetheless it's on the illegal substance list and rules are rules.
Kieran seems like a good guy and I don't consider this matter a horse
doping , I think he knows better.I don't believe this nebulizing agent had
an outcome on the race either IMO.

[WinterTriangle]

When they are sick, of course medicate, if that will work....I am saying that if an animal is not "fit" to race, then he shouldn't be racing, that's all....No drugs, when fit...period...


best,

Anyone who reads the racing rules and laws in Hong Kong, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan and all of Europe, knows what you are saying.

Sick, ailing horses need to be removed from the backstretch.

They are.

Horses banned from racing in the above nations are often removed from the backstretch there, and sent to America to continue to race, because we allow what they don't allow.

[Jackal]

Another problem we have is poor collection of evidence by track officials. Trainers know they can appeal a suspension to a regular court and have it thrown out 99% of the time. :bang:

Trainers are removing sick horses from the backside. It costs at least $30 a day to keep a horse on the backside. The same horse can be kept on a farm for $20 a day and get better care.

[ManeMediaMogul]

You guys wanna knock Shug and Neil but you want a clean game too.

Hard to win when everyone around you is taking all the edge.

[fmolf]

banning all substances in racing stock is what is needed...lasix included!follow this measure up with meaningful suspensions.By that i mean 2 or more years so the trainer in question needs to find another livelihood.second time caught equals lifetime ban!....problem solved except for who will pay for the increased drug testing of the animals?...can you say increased takeout! :lol:

[therussmeister]

Problem is that you will get positives sometimes from drugs that were legitimately given to a sick horse because they haven't left the animal's system even when it is well enough to run. Now I agree that horses should not be racing even with Lasix or Bute, but my only point here is that when you hear of a positive, it doesn't mean the trainer is neccessarily a cheat because certain drugs are quite legitimate in their use

Second problem: it takes some horses significantly longer to rid their system of drugs; so the vet says, should be clean in 10 days, horse runs 15 days later and tests positive.