Let's Cut to the Chase

[Steve R]

In 1990 Unbridled won the two most important races in North America, the Kentucky Derby and the BC Classic, yet was denied the Horse of the Year Award. That same year he won the Florida Derby (G1) and finished second in the Preakness Stakes (G1), Super Derby (G1) and Secretariat Stakes (G1) on the grass. Overall he won or placed in eight graded stakes and earned close to $4 million (in 1990 dollars).

This year there are people ready to award Zenyatta the title because of one race, the BC Classic. They claim the field she defeated was so strong that it overshadowed the hopefully weak fields she had defeated in her four earlier races, fields which in total included just one G1 stakes winner. Thay also claim the her Classic victory overshadows the historic campaign of Rachel Alexandra. As for the actual quality of the BC Classic field, many people apparently are willing to overlook how for most of the year the male three-year-old division and male older horse division were continually derided as, essentially, crap. However, when they showed up in the BC Classic they became stellar competition.

Now if you look at the field Unbridled defeated in his BC Classic, a very good argument could be made that his competition was easily as good as, if not superior to that faced by Zenyatta. Below is a rundown of the horses Unbridled defeated by a widening 3 1/2 lengths in a time of 2:02.0 on a track labeled "good". GSW refers to number of graded stakes wins and GSP refers to graded stakes placings. Also, consider the fact that average purses in North America have doubled since 1990 and that a dollar in 1990 is equivalent to $1.70 today.

Ibn Bey, 4 G1, 7 GSW, 4 GSP, $3.7 million
Thirty Six Red, 1 G1, 2 GSW, 3 GSP, $1.1 million
Lively One, 1 G1, 5 GSW, 9 GSP, $1.5 million
De Roche, 1 G1, 1 GSW, 9 GSP, $1.1 million
Izvestia, Canadian classic winner and HotY, 4 GSW, 3GSP, $2.7 million
Opening Verse, 2 G1, 4 GSW, 7 GSP, $1.7 million
Rhythm, US Champion, 2 G1, 3 GSW, 4 GSP, $1.6 million
Mi Selecto, 3 G1, 6 GSW, 11 GSP, $1.5 million
Beau Genius, 1 G1, 2 GSW, 1 GSP, $1.1 million
Flying Continental, 2 G1, 3 GSW, 10 GSP, $1.8 million
Dispersal, 1 G1, 4 GSW, 5 GSP, $1.5 million
Home At Last, 1 G1, 2 GSW, 2 GSP, $1 million
Go and Go, Irish champion and US classic winner, 1 G1, 2 GSW, 2 GSP, $0.7 million

If easily besting this field while also winning the Derby and performing at a top level all year at multiple venues, distances and surfaces was not enough for Unbridled, then giving the award to Zenyatta would be nothing short of criminal. Worse, it arbitrarily dismisses the long-standing precedent that the Horse of the Year title is for accomplishments achieved throughout the year. A Zenyatta win tells the world that the BC Classic is now the only race that counts, which is odd because the Classic distance of 10 furlongs is becoming less competitive year by year.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I agree Steve and I think imagination and forgetfullness have already set in for people.

This is a copy/paste from another thread.I believe my eyes and people should watch all these,then say what they think.

"Let's watch em for a minute and say after.

Zen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeV9Wb2OWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M9ozmgsSGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb68fbcFp30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt-88DTxeYs


Rachel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRGvbUmqv-s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbF1kZQLjA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS1EG0zf8sk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysO_Fhc8Fpw

Loved all those races.But I saw one gal run her eyeballs out and win big in escalating spots."

[ghostyapper]

Unfortunately for this threads purpose, the HOY award is not based on case law so eliminating zenyatta from HOY because unbridled didn't win it is wrong.

2009 was an especially unique year so bringing up the field unbridled beat or his accomplishments is meaningless.

The fact remains that the 2009 bc classic field was the BEST field assembled of 2009. This is something that all the rachel fans continue to ignore and try to knock it by comparing it to bc fields in other years. Let me repeat that. The 2009 BC Classic field was the best of the year.

Zenyatta is a worthy HOY. For anyone to say it would be criminal if she won it is clueless but we knew that before this thread.

[DeanT]

Worse, it arbitrarily dismisses the long-standing precedent that the Horse of the Year title is for accomplishments achieved throughout the year.
I don't think that is precedent at all. When voting people look at a lot of stuff, like if a horse is retiring and never really got their props yet, and things like that. People seem to like the Skip Away/Awesome Again thing........... they gave it to Skip Away in 1998, after he came second in 1997. I bet he could have lost his last few races and still be named HOY, because for him not to be named for his lifes work would have been a travesty.

Rachel is not up against 5 for 5 Zenyatta this year, she is up against 14 for 14 Zenyatta this year. I am not saying that is right, or just, but I think it is what it is.

[andymays]

This attachment could help a little for those that are undecided.

[FenceBored]

Unfortunately for this threads purpose, the HOY award is not based on case law so eliminating zenyatta from HOY because unbridled didn't win it is wrong.

2009 was an especially unique year so bringing up the field unbridled beat or his accomplishments is meaningless.

The fact remains that the 2009 bc classic field was the BEST field assembled of 2009. This is something that all the rachel fans continue to ignore and try to knock it by comparing it to bc fields in other years. Let me repeat that. The 2009 BC Classic field was the best of the year.

Zenyatta is a worthy HOY. For anyone to say it would be criminal if she won it is clueless but we knew that before this thread.

Oh 'yapper, yoohoo!

Who's ignoring things when you run from every discussion of facts. You think it was the best field assembled? Prove it. You keep making an affirmative declaration, so obviously you have the details to support it. Go through every graded stake this year and demonstrate how they don't have the strength of field the classic did. I'll sit here and wait for you. (not really, I have better things to do, and I know you never back up your silliness with real data.)

[ghostyapper]

Oh 'yapper, yoohoo!

Who's ignoring things when you run from every discussion of facts. You think it was the best field assembled? Prove it. You keep making an affirmative declaration, so obviously you have the details to support it. Go through every graded stake this year and demonstrate how they don't have the strength of field the classic did. I'll sit here and wait for you. (not really, I have better things to do, and I know you never back up your silliness with real data.)

Hmm so in 1 thread you say you already admitted it was the best field. Now you are debating it and want me to prove it? Talk about flip flopping in less than 24 hours. The only one running from facts was you when I asked you to tell me a better field, which you still have not done.

[Dahoss9698]

Hmm so in 1 thread you say you already admitted it was the best field. Now you are debating it and want me to prove it? Talk about flip flopping in less than 24 hours. The only one running from facts was you when I asked you to tell me a better field, which you still have not done.

It's really not that simple though. The surface needs to be discussed as part of the equation. Was the Classic the best field assembled on synthetic this year? Of course. But, at the same time, the Woodward, in my opinion at least, was the best field assembled on dirt. So, they each beat the best field assembled on their respective surfaces.

[tzipi]

AWESOME AGAIN went undefeated and also beat one of the best BC Classic fields ever and still lost HOY big time.
Zenyatta wont win HOY because of one race over a basically average field.

[Steve R]

Unfortunately for this threads purpose, the HOY award is not based on case law so eliminating zenyatta from HOY because unbridled didn't win it is wrong.

2009 was an especially unique year so bringing up the field unbridled beat or his accomplishments is meaningless.

The fact remains that the 2009 bc classic field was the BEST field assembled of 2009. This is something that all the rachel fans continue to ignore and try to knock it by comparing it to bc fields in other years. Let me repeat that. The 2009 BC Classic field was the best of the year.

Zenyatta is a worthy HOY. For anyone to say it would be criminal if she won it is clueless but we knew that before this thread.
Your intellectual limitations pop up with every successive illogical post you make....You can try to show us a better field in 1990 than Unbridled's BC Classic, but you won't find it. Therefore, by your logic he should have been Horse of the Year. Why not Raven's Pass last year? He came from very far back and ran a last quarter under 24. Sound familiar? Plus he defeated not only the reigning Horse of the Year but the future Horse of the Year and a host of G1 winners. It also was the best field of the year. Why didn't he get it for that one performance? If you think Unbridled shouldn't have gotten it after overpowering the best field of his year, or that Raven's Pass shouldn't have gotten it for the same reason, then why should Zenyatta get it this year. Do the standards change according to your misinformed opinions? Of course we know logic is not your strong point, so you shouldn't be faulted for making dumb statements.

OTOH, both Unbridled and Raven's Pass lost in the voting to horses that most believed had more compelling overall campaigns. I disagree, but that's not case law. That's tradition. And if you don't care about tradition, you should involve yourself in a sport that requires less understanding of its history.

This year there is another horse with a more compelling overall campaign. Rachel Alexandra also was undefeated, won more races, more G1 races, defeated more G1 winners and graded stakes winners, won an American classic, became the first 3yo filly to win an open G1-level race in New York in a century, became the first 3yo filly to win 3 G1 races against males in a single season, raced in more venues, ran the fastest Mother Goose and 2nd fastest KY Oaks in history as well as the fastest Haskell in 23 years and 3rd fastest ever and beat those graded stakes winners often by unprecedented margins. Of course, by your inane reasoning none of those graded stakes winners were any good, although I suspect you think the pigs Zenyatta defeated in her first four races were simply marvelous. In reality, those races and the management of Zenyatta's campaign are an embarrassment...and so are you.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The 1990 HOY, who you did not mention by name, Criminal Type, looks like was picked based on his competition. He also won at several different tracks, but several wins in 1990 were titled "Handicap".
IMHO, the purpose of the HOY is PR, not pleasing all.

[ghostyapper]

That's tradition. And if you don't care about tradition, you should involve yourself in a sport that requires less understanding of its history.


So you are saying that because unbridled didn't win it that means Zenyatta shouldn't win it? Talk about clueless.

What about 2004? Ghostzapper won it off 4 races, with only 2 of them being G1 races. What happened to your tradition? To say 1 horse or another should win HOY based on previous HOY results is idiotic but again you and idiotic go hand in hand.

Zenyatta won 4 G1 races and a G2. Whether you respect those races or not is meaningless.

And your summary of Rachel's campaign is PR at its finest (or worst). I think you should write summary's for overrated stallions.

In mentioning her woodward, instead of saying she beat a weak field at 1-5, you spew the crap about being the first 3yo filly to win in NY. Of course with Zenyatta's BC win all you do is look at the field or surface without waxing poetic about how she was the first female EVER to win a BC classic or putting the race into historical perspective like you so eloquently do with everything rachel does.

Like I said I have no problem with someone who thinks rachel deserves HOY based on her entire campaign but clowns like you who say "it would be a crime" if zenyatta won it are the ones who have no understanding of the sport.

[ghostyapper]

It's really not that simple though. The surface needs to be discussed as part of the equation. Was the Classic the best field assembled on synthetic this year? Of course. But, at the same time, the Woodward, in my opinion at least, was the best field assembled on dirt. So, they each beat the best field assembled on their respective surfaces.

The woodward was not the best field. The whitney and jcgc were both better.

[Dahoss9698]

The woodward was not the best field. The whitney and jcgc were both better.

Field for the JCGC

Summer Bird
Quality Road
Tizway
Macho Again
Dry Martini
Setto E Mezzo
Asiatic Boy

Whitney

Bullsbay
Macho Again
Commentator
Tizway
Dry Martini
Smooth Air

Woodward

Rachel Alexandra
Macho Again
Bullsbay
Asiatic Boy
It's A bird
Past The point
Cool Coal Man
D'Tara

The Woodward was clearly the best field. Try again.

[Dahoss9698]

So you are saying that because unbridled didn't win it that means Zenyatta shouldn't win it? Talk about clueless.

What about 2004? Ghostzapper won it off 4 races, with only 2 of them being G1 races. What happened to your tradition? To say 1 horse or another should win HOY based on previous HOY results is idiotic but again you and idiotic go hand in hand.

Zenyatta won 4 G1 races and a G2. Whether you respect those races or not is meaningless.

And your summary of Rachel's campaign is PR at its finest (or worst). I think you should write summary's for overrated stallions.

In mentioning her woodward, instead of saying she beat a weak field at 1-5, you spew the crap about being the first 3yo filly to win in NY. Of course with Zenyatta's BC win all you do is look at the field or surface without waxing poetic about how she was the first female EVER to win a BC classic or putting the race into historical perspective like you so eloquently do with everything rachel does.

Like I said I have no problem with someone who thinks rachel deserves HOY based on her entire campaign but clowns like you who say "it would be a crime" if zenyatta won it are the ones who have no understanding of the sport.

I've seen you embarass yourself about every subject you have tried to talk about from speed figures to this. Yet, you continually tell others how they have no understanding of the sport. It's amazing.

[ghostyapper]

Field for the JCGC

Summer Bird
Quality Road
Tizway
Macho Again
Dry Martini
Setto E Mezzo
Asiatic Boy

Whitney

Bullsbay
Macho Again
Commentator
Tizway
Dry Martini
Smooth Air

Woodward

Rachel Alexandra
Macho Again
Bullsbay
Asiatic Boy
It's A bird
Past The point
Cool Coal Man
D'Tara

The Woodward was clearly the best field. Try again.

O so rachel gets credit for beating herself in the woodward??

[Dahoss9698]

O so rachel gets credit for beating herself in the woodward??

No, I don't think I said that. I included her in the field, because she ran in the race right? Instead of deflecting, address what I posted.

[riskman]

O so rachel gets credit for beating herself in the woodward??

Yep, that would mean she beat the best or the ghost of herself.

[Show Me the Wire]

Macho's Again two poor subsequent showings, against decent horses, really confirms a very weak Woodward field, a field R.A. desperately held on to beat.

Understanding this fact, shows that R.A.'s performance is not that great. It is actually pedestraian as she barely beat a very sub-standard field of older males.

[ghostyapper]

No, I don't think I said that. I included her in the field, because she ran in the race right? Instead of deflecting, address what I posted.

You said she beat the best field assembled. Obviously this would not include herself. Talk about deflecting.

[postpicker]

Unbridled was never a serious candidate for HOY because prior to the BC Classic, he only had ONE Grade 1 victory. If you review the year, there were many 3 year olds with only ONE Grade 1 victory. I can't think of any other 3YO with 2 or more Grade 1 victories that year. Then look at Criminal Type, he won FOUR consecutive Grade 1 races, defeating horses like Sunday Silence, Easy Goer and Housebuster along the way. Criminal Type basically had it clinch in June after winning the Hollywood Gold Cup

[ghostyapper]

Macho's Again two poor subsequent showings, against decent horses, really confirms a very weak Woodward field, a field R.A. desperately held on to beat.

Fortunately the rachel crowd already has an explanation for that. He got so worn down from trying to catch rachel that he has been a shell of himself the last 2 races. :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

Steve R doesn't believe in the bounce. Can't have it both ways. Any how Macho's performance was not very taxing as he really only ran about 2 1/2 furlongs, if that.

Bottom line, a very weak field R.A. barely beat.

[Dahoss9698]

Macho's Again two poor subsequent showings, against decent horses, really confirms a very weak Woodward field, a field R.A. desperately held on to beat.

Understanding this fact, shows that R.A.'s performance is not that great. It is actually pedestraian as she barely beat a very sub-standard field of older males.

So know the Woodward was a very weak field? Interesting. So what was a better field on dirt this year?

[Show Me the Wire]

So know the Woodward was a very weak field? Interesting. So what was a better field on dirt this year?

Do you mean main track?

[Dahoss9698]

You said she beat the best field assembled. Obviously this would not include herself. Talk about deflecting.

I think it's obvious who is deflecting. In my post I included the entire field for each race. She was in the race. You have yet to address it, or really any point anyone makes. Spin away.

[Dahoss9698]

Do you mean main track?

Dirt is not the same as synthetic. Not main track, dirt.

[ghostyapper]

I think it's obvious who is deflecting. In my post I included the entire field for each race. She was in the race. You have yet to address it, or really any point anyone makes. Spin away.

This is a great cover up by you. She did not defeat the best field on dirt this year. Had she run in the whitney or jcgc they both were more competitive races than the woodward. You made a wrong statement and keep digging a deeper hole, just give it up already.

It would be similiar to saying the fields zenyatta beat in her first 4 races were not weak because she was in the race. :eek:

[Show Me the Wire]

Exactly. so what is the point? Dirt gets preference? I don't think so.

BtW Bulls bay performed poorly in his two subsequent races too against better competition.

Why was it a good field. I am giving you facts and reasons why the Woodward was weak. The subsequent performances of the competing horses seem to back up the weak field scenario.

[Dahoss9698]

This is a great cover up by you. She did not defeat the best field on dirt this year. Had she run in the whitney or jcgc they both were more competitive races than the woodward. You made a wrong statement and keep digging a deeper hole, just give it up already.

It would be similiar to saying the fields zenyatta beat in her first 4 races were not weak because she was in the race. :eek:

:lol:

I've seen MUCH better trolls, so you have a long way to go. Here's what I said

But, at the same time, the Woodward, in my opinion at least, was the best field assembled on dirt. So, they each beat the best field assembled on their respective surfaces.

Then I listed the fields.

[Tom]

The chase is that the only year that matters is this one.
Two horses accomplished great things this year, and you can make a case for either of them.

In the grand scheme of things, Rachael probably accomplished more, but the case for Zenyatta is strong as well. I can live with either.

And the criteria for those who vote is NOT decided here. Show me the "rules" that come anywhere close to all the criteria some here think is required. What happened in 1990 stays in 1990.

[Dahoss9698]

Exactly. so what is the point? Dirt gets preference? I don't think so.

BtW Bulls bay performed poorly in his two subsequent races too against better competition.

Why was it a good field. I am giving you facts and reasons why the Woodward was weak. The subsequent performances of the competing horses seem to back up the weak field scenario.

Well, yeah dirt gets preference in this country, always has. Is it right, maybe, maybe not, but it's the truth. I'm still looking for a better field of horses on DIRT this year.

The surfaces are not the same. No matter how much you would like them to be. Bet much?

[ghostyapper]

:lol:

I've seen MUCH better trolls, so you have a long way to go. Here's what I said



Then I listed the fields.

You are quoting yourself and it is actually proving my accusation, not disproving. Seriously I am done with this silly nonsense. But I better not see you claim that zenyatta beat up on weak fields all year because I will remind you that she won multiple races that had a champion and undefeated horse in the field. :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

You are quoting yourself and it is actually proving my accusation, not disproving. Seriously I am done with this silly nonsense. But I better not see you claim that zenyatta beat up on weak fields all year because I will remind you that she won multiple races that had a champion and undefeated horse in the field. :lol:

Worst troll ever

[Pell Mell]

I have a question that might be stupid but I was wondering why they entered Life Is Sweet 3 times against her stablemate Zen?:confused:

[Show Me the Wire]

Well, yeah dirt gets preference in this country, always has. Is it right, maybe, maybe not, but it's the truth. I'm still looking for a better field of horses on DIRT this year.

The surfaces are not the same. No matter how much you would like them to be. Bet much?


As I posted before the paradigm has changed. That is a fact, it has nothing to do with what I want. Main track has a preference over turf, not dirt over aws and aws over turf.

Where are facts refuting my position the field is weak based on the poor subsequent performances, on dirt and any other surface, by the Woodward contenders.

Strong fields produce strong efforts in subsequent races. The subsequent strong efforts seem to be lacking regarding the Woodward field. Poor subsequent performances harken to weak fields. Using subsequent performances as a standard the Woodward is proving itsel very weak.

[11cashcall]

And the criteria for those who vote is NOT decided here. Show me the "rules" that come anywhere close to all the criteria some here think is required. What happened in 1990 stays in 1990.




1950's the average starts for the HOY was 12.5 starts;
1960's the average starts for the HOY was 11.5 starts;
1970's the average starts for the HOY was 10.6 starts;
1980's the average starts for the HOY was 9.4 starts;
1990's the average starts for the HOY was 9.3 starts;
2000-2004 average starts for the HOY was 7.6 starts.

2004 winner Ghostzapper 4 starts 4 wins including 2 G1, 1 G2, and 1 G3, total of 11 career races;

2005 winner Saint Liam 6 starts 4 wins 1 place and 1 off the board. 4 Grade 1 wins;

2006 winner Invasor 4 starts 4 wins 4 G1 wins;

2007 winner Curlin 9 starts 6 wins 1 place 2 shows;
2008 winner Curlin 7 starts 5 wins 1 place 1 off the board, 4 G1 wins.
Career record 16 starts 11 wins 2 places 2 shows 1 off the board.

The criteria certainly has shifted over the yrs. to which owners & trainers are
aware of and map out their horse(s) campaign.One has to wonder where it will
be at in a few yrs. How long would a Triple Crown winner stay in racing due to
Breeding rights in today's age?

[Dahoss9698]

As I posted before the paradigm has changed. That is a fact, it has nothing to do with what I want. Main track has a preference over turf, not dirt over aws and aws over turf.

Where are facts refuting my position the field is weak based on the poor subsequent performances, on dirt and any other surface, by the Woodward contenders.

Strong fields produce strong efforts in subsequent races. The subsequent strong efforts seem to be lacking regarding the Woodward field. Poor subsequent performances harken to weak fields. Using subsequent performances as a standard the Woodward is proving itsel very weak.

The paradigm hasn't changed. It's not a fact.

Still waiting for a stronger dirt field. Shouldn't be that difficult right?

[SoCalCircuit]

The paradigm hasn't changed. It's not a fact.

Still waiting for a stronger dirt field. Shouldn't be that difficult right?



The Belmont Stakes

[ghostyapper]

I have a question that might be stupid but I was wondering why they entered Life Is Sweet 3 times against her stablemate Zen?:confused:

Well if you listen to one of the resident Rachel Groupies (fencebored) it was to make the field she faced appear stronger while not trying to actually beat her. Yup those rachel groupies will say anything.

[ghostyapper]

The paradigm hasn't changed. It's not a fact.

Still waiting for a stronger dirt field. Shouldn't be that difficult right?

What is the point? You will just ignore it and still say the woodward field was better because it had rachel.

[Dahoss9698]

The Belmont Stakes

Was this a joke?

[Show Me the Wire]

It is a fact 2of 3 of Kentucky's tracks are aws. Illinois top track is aws. The California circuit is basically aws. Those are all facts. It seems it is all based on your wants and not facts.

Based on my standard using subsequent performances by particiapants in a race to determine strength of a field there are plenty of stronger dirt races than the Woodward.

Do you deny subsequent performances are a valid measure of the strength of the field?

[Stillriledup]

One major factor that needs to be tossed into the ring is that this race was in early November. Zenyatta was freshened and specifically pointed for this race, she didn't race until late May, had a very short campaign, never had to ship to race and was lying in wait, fresh, rested and ready to race against horses who were over the top. There were a few horses in that Classic who were over the top, who raced their eyeballs out all year and came onto a surface they're not familiar with and were just sitting ducks.

[Dahoss9698]

It is a fact 2of 3 of Kentucky's tracks are aws. Illinois top track is aws. The California circuit is basically aws. Those are all facts. It seems it is all based on your wants and not facts.

Based on my standard using subsequent performances by particiapants in a race to determine strength of a field there are plenty of stronger dirt races than the Woodward.

Do you deny subsequent performances are a valid measure of the strength of the field?

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

Dirt is not the same as synthetic and performances on each should not be looked at the same way.

[ghostyapper]

One major factor that needs to be tossed into the ring is that this race was in early November. Zenyatta was freshened and specifically pointed for this race, she didn't race until late May, had a very short campaign, never had to ship to race and was lying in wait, fresh, rested and ready to race against horses who were over the top. There were a few horses in that Classic who were over the top, who raced their eyeballs out all year and came onto a surface they're not familiar with and were just sitting ducks.

So then I take it you cleaned up with those generous 5-2 odds zenyatta went off at being that it was so obvious in your mind that that she was fresh while all the others were sitting ducks?

[SoCalCircuit]

Was this a joke?



It started out as one, but actually the more i think about it a healthy summer bird, dunkirk, and charitable man probably would probably beat a healthy macho again, and asiatic boy, so its not really the more i think about it

[Stillriledup]

So then I take it you cleaned up with those generous 5-2 odds zenyatta went off at being that it was so obvious in your mind that that she was fresh while all the others were sitting ducks?


Yes, i singled her in the pick 4 and did quite well.

[ghostyapper]

Yes, i singled her in the pick 4 and did quite well.

Congrats on the score. But your whole theory about the fresh vs lame duck seems like a terrible case of retrofitting.

[Stillriledup]

Congrats on the score. But your whole theory about the fresh vs lame duck seems like a terrible case of retrofitting.

It might be retrofitting, but it seems to be at least somewhat true. Its hard to make the argument that MTB, SB and the Good Euro horse were all in peak form.

Are you making that argument?

[Old Sparky]

Ibn Bey, 4 G1, 7 GSW, 4 GSP, $3.7 million :( :( :( here come the flash backs

[tzipi]

It started out as one, but actually the more i think about it a healthy summer bird, dunkirk, and charitable man probably would probably beat a healthy macho again, and asiatic boy, so its not really the more i think about it

Macho Again ran with Rachel. Rachel destroyed Summer Bird.

[shhail2]

how was the jcgc field better than the woodward? if you are going to say that, then wouldnt the haskell field be as good as well? it had summer bird and munnings in the field, and we know if you watched east coast racing that the older horses werent much at all this year(blame just beat them all in the clark and misremembered ran 3rd..two 3yos)...all in all i believe it is a very close contest and i cant get past rachel winning 9 races, on 6 different surfaces, beating the boys 3 times, and never lost....zenyatta was pointed to the classic and wasnt raced until late may...she even scratched out of the race at churchill on oaks day because she didnt wanna race in the mud... she only raced 5 times and that doesnt add up to me for her to win over rachel for this particular year

[FenceBored]

Hmm so in 1 thread you say you already admitted it was the best field. Now you are debating it and want me to prove it? Talk about flip flopping in less than 24 hours. The only one running from facts was you when I asked you to tell me a better field, which you still have not done.

No, I've said it was a better field than the Woodward. I don't believe I've ever said it was the best field assembled this year. That's what you are going to show me, right?

Tick, tick, tick. Time's a wastin'. :sleeping:

[Steve R]

Unbridled was never a serious candidate for HOY because prior to the BC Classic, he only had ONE Grade 1 victory. If you review the year, there were many 3 year olds with only ONE Grade 1 victory. I can't think of any other 3YO with 2 or more Grade 1 victories that year. Then look at Criminal Type, he won FOUR consecutive Grade 1 races, defeating horses like Sunday Silence, Easy Goer and Housebuster along the way. Criminal Type basically had it clinch in June after winning the Hollywood Gold Cup
I believe the Florida Derby was a Grade 1 back then, so Unbridled had two G1s going into the Classic and wound up with three, plus three seconds in three other G1s, one on turf. Two of those G1 wins were the most important in North America and arguably among the top ten in the world.

Criminal Type didn't win past August 4th and didn't show up for the BC Classic. Haven't we seen something similar to that as an argument against Rachel Alexandra?

[Steve R]

Ibn Bey, 4 G1, 7 GSW, 4 GSP, $3.7 million :( :( :( here come the flash backs
BTW, Ibn Bey was ranked at 126 by Timeform, just one pound below Twice Over after the Classic. His best Racing Post Rating prior to the BC Classic was better than any earned by Twice Over prior to his. Also, Ibn Bey was a champion in three countries - Italy, Germany and Ireland. Nice horse.

[Old Sparky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTSI7Uy_D3o ibn bey 5 bens to win thats how you make money and you make new fans :( zenyatta :ThmbDown: sorry you can' stay in your back yard------ take your ball and GO home If only I could say what I want to :mad: :mad: OS

[Old Sparky]

BTW, Ibn Bey was ranked at 126 by Timeform, just one pound below Twice Over after the Classic. His best Racing Post Rating prior to the BC Classic was better than any earned by Twice Over prior to his. Also, Ibn Bey was a champion in three countries - Italy, Germany and Ireland. Nice horse.
thank you :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: Thats why I really don't understand WHY you people bow down to the mare Z. excuse me while I go wipe drool off my :mad: :bang: OS

[SoCalCircuit]

Macho Again ran with Rachel. Rachel destroyed Summer Bird.

So you believe Macho Again is a better thoroughbred than Summer Bird?

[tzipi]

So you believe Macho Again is a better thoroughbred than Summer Bird?

Just said Summer Bird got beat badly by Rach and Zen. That's all.

[ghostyapper]

Macho Again ran with Rachel. Rachel destroyed Summer Bird.

Did you stop following racing after the woodward because then Summer Bird went on to destroy Macho Again.

[ghostyapper]

No, I've said it was a better field than the Woodward. I don't believe I've ever said it was the best field assembled this year. That's what you are going to show me, right?

Tick, tick, tick. Time's a wastin'. :sleeping:

Yes time is wasting by you doing nothing but posturing. And the field that was BETTER than the bc classic field was .......????

[FenceBored]

Yes time is wasting by you doing nothing but posturing. And the field that was BETTER than the bc classic field was .......????

Look, I'm not the one saying that a particular field was without a doubt the best field of the year, you are. Are you saying that someone can make an unsubstantiated (use the dictionary) claim and not have to offer proof when challenged?

Here I'll help you, of the 115 G1s (most likely to have the best field) 14 are 2yo or 2yoF races, so you can exclude those without me griping. So, that's only 111 races for you to examine. Oh wait, you can also exclude Zenyatta's pre-BC races. Freisan Fire's comeback AOC has a deeper, stronger field than any of those.

Tick, tick, tick. Time's a wasting. :sleeping:

[FenceBored]

Did you stop following racing after the woodward because then Summer Bird went on to destroy Macho Again.

And a track surface that limited late moves, in addition to the crawling early fractions had nothing to do with that. Rightttttt, :lol:

Oh, but that's using physics, again. Silly me.

[ghostyapper]

And a track surface that limited late moves, in addition to the crawling early fractions had nothing to do with that. Rightttttt, :lol:

Oh, but that's using physics, again. Silly me.

And as expected the rachel fans will make nothing but excuses for macho again losing that badly to summer bird but will not give summer bird any benefit of the doubt excuses for him losing badly to RA, like it was a prep race for him, like he was coming off a belmont race where recently horses do not do well in their next race after running in it.

And what is macho's excuse for the clark? Can't wait to hear this one

[ghostyapper]

Look, I'm not the one saying that a particular field was without a doubt the best field of the year, you are. Are you saying that someone can make an unsubstantiated (use the dictionary) claim and not have to offer proof when challenged?

Here I'll help you, of the 115 G1s (most likely to have the best field) 14 are 2yo or 2yoF races, so you can exclude those without me griping. So, that's only 111 races for you to examine. Oh wait, you can also exclude Zenyatta's pre-BC races. Freisan Fire's comeback AOC has a deeper, stronger field than any of those.

Tick, tick, tick. Time's a wasting. :sleeping:

Ok you know what I'm just gonna end this silliness right now. You are refusing to name a stronger field because you know there is none. However you will continue to try and save face by making it seem like I am the one who needs to prove something. You will also continue to break down and discredit the bc field whenever it comes up but you will still not name a stronger field because you know they will be broken down and discredited even worse.

[FenceBored]

Ok you know what I'm just gonna end this silliness right now. You are refusing to name a stronger field because you know there is none. However you will continue to try and save face by making it seem like I am the one who needs to prove something. You will also continue to break down and discredit the bc field whenever it comes up but you will still not name a stronger field because you know they will be broken down and discredited even worse.

You really don't understand logic do you? You made an affirmative declaration. I asked you to defend it. I'm not under any obligation to prove, or disprove anything. You are under an obligation to support your declaration.

Tick, tick, tick. Time's a wasting. :sleeping:

[FenceBored]

And as expected the rachel fans will make nothing but excuses for macho again losing that badly to summer bird but will not give summer bird any benefit of the doubt excuses for him losing badly to RA, like it was a prep race for him, like he was coming off a belmont race where recently horses do not do well in their next race after running in it.

And what is macho's excuse for the clark? Can't wait to hear this one

If you're willing to entertain the thoughts of the trainer, he was tired after a long campaign.
Robby Albarado "had to scrub on him down the backside," Stewart said. "He made a move but didn't close it out like he usually does. He had trained really well. It was just the end of a long season, I guess."
-- http://www.drf.com/news/article/109280.html
But, of course, that's not acceptable to you, because it doesn't allow you to demean anyone. How predictable.

Summer Bird ran a great race in the Haskell. Why do you feel the need to rip on it?

[PaceAdvantage]

For anyone to say it would be criminal if she won it is clueless but we knew that before this thread.It would be criminal, and I've said so in the past, so I suppose your little comment was directed at me.

I'm curious. Have I ever labled your opinions with such names in the past? I don't think I have, but I might be wrong. After all, I'm clueless!!!:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Exactly. so what is the point? Dirt gets preference? I don't think so.Why not? For years, it got preference over turf. Why shouldn't it get preference over synthetics?

Honestly, I'd love to know the answer to that question.

I for one believe synthetics rank THIRD in terms of preference (as you call it) behind BOTH Dirt and Turf.

[PaceAdvantage]

As I posted before the paradigm has changed. That is a fact, it has nothing to do with what I want.How so? How has it changed and why? When did this change occur?

[PaceAdvantage]

It is a fact 2of 3 of Kentucky's tracks are aws. Illinois top track is aws. The California circuit is basically aws. Those are all facts. It seems it is all based on your wants and not facts.What is the business relationship between Polytrack and Keeneland, and did this influence them in any way to change their surface? Of course it did.

The Triple Crown is still dirt. The VAST majority of Breeders' Cup races run to date have been on dirt. The biggest circuit in the country is still dirt (NYRA). Oaklawn is still dirt. Florida is still dirt.

Arlington isn't known for its dirt racing...it's known as a premier turf meeting.

And California has been losing its status as a premier venue for years...it's no wonder they gambled and made the switch...the only GOOD thing to come out of California and the synthetics they race on these past few years has been Zenyatta. That's it...

I'm having a very tough time seeing this paradigm shift you speak of...

[Stillriledup]

PACE ADVANTAGE SAID:

Why not? For years, it got preference over turf. Why shouldn't it get preference over synthetics?

Honestly, I'd love to know the answer to that question.


STILLRILEDUP SAID:

Can someone PLEASE answer Pace Advantage's question.

Thanks guys.

[Steve R]

PACE ADVANTAGE SAID:

Why not? For years, it got preference over turf. Why shouldn't it get preference over synthetics?

Honestly, I'd love to know the answer to that question.


STILLRILEDUP SAID:

Can someone PLEASE answer Pace Advantage's question.

Thanks guys.
I don't understand exactly what it is you are asking, but there is no question that dirt horses have had a huge advantage over turf horses in year-end awards. Since they changed the Handicap Male award to Older Horse award in 1971 only five turf champions have been champion older male and/or HotY. Kotashaan in 1993 and All Along in 1983 were HotY racing exclusively on grass. John Henry was HotY in 1984, raced twice on dirt and finished 5th and 2nd in two G1s. Slew o' Gold was champion older male that year. John Henry was also HotY in 1981 and took the older male award as well, but that year won both the Santa Anita Handicap and JCGC on dirt. The other turf champion to be named HotY was Secretariat, a 3yo which, if I recall, had a pretty solid campaign on dirt. In a random world without "preference", we would have seen close to 20 turf champions winning those other awards.

Now if you are suggesting that synthetics and turf should be combined under the main track classification, that's purely a matter of opinion, although it is difficult to see any closer association between dirt and plastic/recycled rubber than grass and plastic/recycled rubber in terms of racing characteristics.

Synthetics were falsely promoted as a safe alternative to dirt. It was a claim made without any compelling evidence of improved safety or of similarity in surface properties. I know for a fact that many issues of safety have either not been adequately addressed or are being suppressed. The manufacturers of Pro-Ride have not responded to my requests for toxicology data under use conditions even though known carcinogens are present in the mixture. The release of carcinogenic VOCs under the unique racing conditions of abrasion and high surface heat is a reasonable scenario. These are surface-specific issues that clearly differentiate AWSs from dirt.

[ghostyapper]

It would be criminal, and I've said so in the past, so I suppose your little comment was directed at me.

I'm curious. Have I ever labled your opinions with such names in the past? I don't think I have, but I might be wrong. After all, I'm clueless!!!:lol:

It doesn't take much reading in this thread to see who my comments were directed at.

I won't say you're clueless but it doesn't bode well for you if you share the same opinion as a person who has shown time and time again to be nothing but clueless on these boards.

[FenceBored]

It doesn't take much reading in this thread to see who my comments were directed at.

I won't say you're clueless but it doesn't bode well for you if you share the same opinion as a person who has shown time and time again to be nothing but clueless on these boards.

I haven't noticed PA agreeing with you.