Pricci gets it right AGAIN! A Voice of Reason on Zenyatta/Oak Tree/HOY

[andymays]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/on-the-line/11282009-shhhhh-do-you-want-to-know-a-zenyatta/

Excerpt:

But what was sporting about taking a path of the least resistance possible, a four-race campaign in which she beat 22 of mostly-the-same rivals, essentially public workouts for pay, even if her entire year was predicated on, and culminated with, an unforgettable career finale on a non-dirt surface?

The only reason Zenyatta raced in the Classic was because it was her only chance to catch a three-year-old rival she never met, one that compiled what appeared to many as an insurmountable lead in the quest for Horse of the Year honors.

And if the early polling on this site is any measure, the decision to run in, and win, the Breeders’ Cup Classic might prove the winning gambit after all.

But in terms of the rest of her Horse of the Year “season,” it was a campaign devoid of meaningful challenges. No points are scored for shipping to Churchill Downs for her season’s debut only to scratch when the Louisville dirt came up a sea of slop.

[tzipi]

I will say even though Zenyatta's BC race was great,it truly was,I have to say Rachael took on boys numerous times in big races and took on the best girls in numerous top races all while travelling to numerous tracks all at 3YO. Zenyatta had a very easy campaign running against the same outclassed rivals almost every race and also never having to travel. JMO :)

[turfnsport]

Tell John Zenyatta's connections had no control over who showed up in the Grade 2 and four Grade 1's she won.

[Robert Fischer]

In my opinion Zenyatta was the better horse this year, and the Classic was a better race than anything Rachel Alexandra won this year, but I think HOY should go to Rachel Alexandra.

Rachel Alexandra ran a regular schedule AND the Preakness, Haskell, Woodward. The Preakness and Haskell in particular while not as good as the Classic, are important popular races in the season.

Zenyatta ran a regular schedule AND the Classic. While it appears she is one of the best thoroughbreds in the world, and she was PERFECTLY prepared for the Classic, it is a little disappointing that she was racing in 8.5furlong races vs. Grade3 types in terms of a campaign.

[FenceBored]

Tell John Zenyatta's connections had no control over who showed up in the Grade 2 and four Grade 1's she won.

Very true, no racing secretary in California could scare up a 2009 graded stakes winning distaffer who wasn't on Shireff's shedrow to face her. But when you're comparing the campaigns of two horses the quality of their competition is a valid issue.

[turfnsport]

Very true, no racing secretary in California could scare up a 2009 graded stakes winning distaffer who wasn't on Shireff's shedrow to face her. But when you're comparing the campaigns of two horses the quality of their competition is a valid issue.

I understand that...I just take exception with John's comment, "But what was sporting about taking a path of the least resistance possible."

It's not like she raced in four $65,000 overnight stakes. She completed her year racing in four Grade 1 races.

[tzipi]

Yeah they were Grade 1's but it was against the same competition at home that she was already obviously better than. She(connections) just stayed at home and just kept beating them,instead of shipping out to better or running against the boys,etc. I think he just means her campaign was not that tough until the last race.

[FenceBored]

I understand that...I just take exception with John's comment, "But what was sporting about taking a path of the least resistance possible."

It's not like she raced in four $65,000 overnight stakes. She completed her year racing in four Grade 1 races.

Actually, it is like she raced in four $65,000 overnight stakes. That's the only type of stakes the fillies Zenyatta faced have won this year, apart from Life is Sweet.

[MickJ26]

This will be construed by the Zenyatta supporters as the "east coast bias". Instead, they should really take Moss/Shireffs to task for ducking the Pacific Classic and Goodwood, races Zenyatta would've won easily.

[andymays]

There's more to the piece than just the excerpt I chose to use! I think he makes some good points throughout the article. Maybe some points that haven't been made yet. That's what I like about the piece. :ThmbUp:



http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/

[Citation1947]

If Zenyatta wins, then it just goes to prove that the award is truly not "Horse of the YEAR"

[andymays]

There's more to the piece than just the excerpt I chose to use! I think he makes some good points throughout the article. Maybe some points that haven't been made yet. That's what I like about the piece. :ThmbUp:



http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/

On the Paulick Report the link to the article says:

PRICCI: Zenyatta electioneering by Oak Tree 'a little unworthy of what's ultimately at stake'


My position is that they should share the award. If I had to pick I would pick Rachel.

Zenyatta is top notch though and dances much better than Rachel. :)

[Robert Fischer]

This will be construed by the Zenyatta supporters as the "east coast bias". Instead, they should really take Moss/Shireffs to task for ducking the Pacific Classic and Goodwood, races Zenyatta would've won easily.

Good point.
A PC, and GW would have evened the campaigns a great deal in terms of comparison.
As a racing fan I feel a little robbed that I only got to see her in a "real race" once this year, and I do think she was the best horse.

[turfnsport]

If Zenyatta wins, then it just goes to prove that the award is truly not "Horse of the YEAR"

So winning FOUR Grade 1's and Grade 2 in a 5 for 5 campaign is not HOY worthy?

[tzipi]

So winning FOUR Grade 1's and Grade 2 in a 5 for 5 campaign is not HOY worthy?


Well you always have to check the level of competition in all graded stakes wins I think.

[foregoforever]

So winning FOUR Grade 1's and Grade 2 in a 5 for 5 campaign is not HOY worthy?

Four Grade 1's and 3 Grade 2's in an undefeated campaign weren't enough for her last year. :p

Aside from being an easy campaign up until the Classic, the big problem is that she didn't race outside of SoCal. There are racing secretaries, DRF writers and turf writers in Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, Maryland, New Jersey and New York for whom Rachel was THE story of the year. That's a lot to overcome. If you're going to campaign for national office, or for HOY, you need to do a little traveling.

Ultimately, the HOY vote will be about the campaigns, not the horses' performances.

[turfnsport]

Four Grade 1's and 3 Grade 2's in an undefeated campaign weren't enough for her last year. :p

Aside from being an easy campaign up until the Classic, the big problem is that she didn't race outside of SoCal. There are racing secretaries, DRF writers and turf writers in Louisiana, Arkansas, Kentucky, Maryland, New Jersey and New York for whom Rachel was THE story of the year. That's a lot to overcome. If you're going to campaign for national office, or for HOY, you need to do a little traveling.

Ultimately, the HOY vote will be about the campaigns, not the horses' performances.

Actually what I meant to say was her campaign should be worthy of HOY consideration in response to Citations' remark, "If Zenyatta wins, then it just goes to prove that the award is truly not "Horse of the YEAR.."

I dont agree with your last point "Ultimately, the HOY vote will be about the campaigns, not the horses' performances"

The only reason we are even talking about this is really based on ONE performance, and that was the Classic. Other than that, its a slam dunk for Rachel.

[foregoforever]

I dont agree with your last point "Ultimately, the HOY vote will be about the campaigns, not the horses' performances"


I just don't think you can differentiate between the performances. Both were flawless. Beyers and margins of victory are both useless, given the differences in their running styles and in the nature of dirt-vs-synthetic racing. What's the point of comparison?

So for me, it comes down to the strength, and ambition, of the campaigns.

[turfnsport]

So for me, it comes down to the strength, and ambition, of the campaigns.

So if Macho Again had beaten her in the Woodward and/or Mine That Bird caught her in the Preakness, you would still think she is HOY?

Many would I guess. If Macho had beat her, the debate might even be more interesting. ;)

[Dahoss9698]

So if Macho Again had beaten her in the Woodward and/or Mine That Bird caught her in the Preakness, you would still think she is HOY?

Many would I guess. If Macho had beat her, the debate might even be more interesting. ;)

Had Zenyatta failed to get up over Anabaa's Creation, would you still think she is HOY?

[Cratos]

I have stated repeatedly that Rachel Alexandra would be my choice for the 2009 HOTY award, but given the West coast campaign by Team Moss and company I really don’t think it will matter anymore because even if Rachel wins, the publicity machine of Team Moss will over shadow Rachel winning of the award and that will be most unfortunate for the sport of racing.

[turfnsport]

Had Zenyatta failed to get up over Anabaa's Creation, would you still think she is HOY?

No

[Cadillakin]

I have stated repeatedly that Rachel Alexandra would be my choice for the 2009 HOTY award, but given the West coast campaign by Team Moss and company I really don’t think it will matter anymore because even if Rachel wins, the publicity machine of Team Moss will over shadow Rachel winning of the award and that will be most unfortunate for the sport of racing.
First, demean the mare, then the surfaces she races over. Then her unimpressive numbers.. Next, demean the competition she beats. Now, demean the gracious owners...

Pitiful..

[turfnsport]

I have stated repeatedly that Rachel Alexandra would be my choice for the 2009 HOTY award, but given the West coast campaign by Team Moss and company I really don’t think it will matter anymore because even if Rachel wins, the publicity machine of Team Moss will over shadow Rachel winning of the award and that will be most unfortunate for the sport of racing.

"the publicity machine of Team Moss will over shadow Rachel winning of the award"??

That's just plain stupid. The headines in the paper will say "Rachel Wins HOY" and Moss will be a gracious loser.

And I would think the vast majority of fans will be happy no matter who wins, myself included.

[Zman179]

So winning FOUR Grade 1's and Grade 2 in a 5 for 5 campaign is not HOY worthy?

Not when the other horse, Rachel, won FIVE Grade 1's, TWO Grade 2's, and beat males three times in an 8 for 8 campaign, of which two wins came in the slop.

[turfnsport]

Not when the other horse, Rachel, won FIVE Grade 1's, TWO Grade 2's, and beat males three times in an 8 for 8 campaign, of which two wins came in the slop.

I can read PP's...I was responding to Citation's post
"If Zenyatta wins, then it just goes to prove that the award is truly not "Horse of the YEAR"

My point was winning four G1's and a G2 IS a good year in this generation.

[Greyfox]

The only reason we are even talking about this is really based on ONE performance, and that was the Classic. Other than that, its a slam dunk for Rachel.

Yes. But that performance in the Classic was huge. Do you remember the many posters on this board that gave her little chance? I personally thought that her undefeated streak would end. Her connections took a huge risk there, or so I thought. Going into that race she was undefeated in 13 previous occasions including Oaklawn on dirt. What a horse.

For all of you posing "IF" ideas, "If the Queen had balls she'd be the King."

Both are great horses and its too bad that there isn't a chance of a sharing of the award. But the win in the Classic sends the weight of evidence to Zenyatta for Horse of the Year.

[turfnsport]

Yes. But that performance in the Classic was huge. Do you remember the many posters on this board that gave her little chance? I personally thought that her undefeated streak would end. [/b]

Little chance? I gave her NO chance.

I have a framed picture of her winning the Classic just above my desk that serves as a daily reminder. :D

My wife dusts and straightens it daily.

[Cratos]

First, demean the mare, then the surfaces she races over. Then her unimpressive numbers.. Next, demean the competition she beats. Now, demean the gracious owners...

Pitiful..

Did you read this:

“Zenyatta, I apologize because I didn’t think you as a 5-year old mare who had never run beyond the 1 1/8 mile distance (and only twice at that distance) could run at the 1 ¼ mile distance in America’s biggest Grade 1 race against male horses and win.

Also, John Shirreffis your efforts in this year’s BC races epitomize the saying “there is no such thing as luck because luck is when opportunity meet preparedness” and with Life is Sweet winning the Lady Classic in authoritative fashion and Zenyatta’s sensational win in the BC Classic you were very prepared for the opportunity.

I have always said that Rachel Alexandra would get my vote (if I had one) for Horse-of-the-Year and I will stand by that. But if the voters give the award to Zenyatta I will not argue.

However the argument about Rachel running 3 times against males and Zenyatta only once is nonsense. The strong case (at least my case) for Rachel to be Horse-of-the-Year is because she is a young horse who was put in against older horses who were males and won, she ran at 5 different race tracks and won, and she won a leg of the Triple Crown races.

Can a case be made for Zenyatta? Yes, because her being undefeated will be very compelling to the voters and adding to that her resounding BC Classic win against a stellar field of male horses which was seen on world wide TV might convince the award voters to make her the winner.”

[Cratos]

"the publicity machine of Team Moss will over shadow Rachel winning of the award"??

That's just plain stupid. The headines in the paper will say "Rachel Wins HOY" and Moss will be a gracious loser.

And I would think the vast majority of fans will be happy no matter who wins, myself included.
Obviously you don’t understand this sport. This is not the NFL, NBA, etc. This is horseracing whose popularity is in a downward spiral and any noise by Moss & company would be heard loud and clear by the sports media.

If you think that is stupid then I will not try and change your mind.

[bisket]

i'm sorry zenyatta winning a "grade1" race doesn't really impress me anymore :rolleyes: . there are so many "grade 1" races that really about a 1/3 of them are not much tougher to win then non winners of 3 allowance.

[turfnsport]

Obviously you don’t understand this sport. This is not the NFL, NBA, etc. This is horseracing whose popularity is in a downward spiral and any noise by Moss & company would be heard loud and clear by the sports media.

If you think that is stupid then I will not try and change your mind.

What I do understand is Moss & company will not be making noise after Rachel wins. He has too much class for that.

So yes, your statement is not only stupid it is ridiculous.

[Dahoss9698]

Yes. But that performance in the Classic was huge. Do you remember the many posters on this board that gave her little chance? I personally thought that her undefeated streak would end. Her connections took a huge risk there, or so I thought. Going into that race she was undefeated in 13 previous occasions including Oaklawn on dirt. What a horse.

For all of you posing "IF" ideas, "If the Queen had balls she'd be the King."

Both are great horses and its too bad that there isn't a chance of a sharing of the award. But the win in the Classic sends the weight of evidence to Zenyatta for Horse of the Year.

So basically one race gets her HOY. Interesting. My understanding of the award was Horse of the YEAR. Not Horse of November 7th.

I really don't see how someone can look at their two respective years, unbiased, and come to the conclusion Zenyatta did more to deserve the award.

[Cratos]

What I do understand is Moss & company will not be making noise after Rachel wins. He has too much class for that.

So yes, your statement is not only stupid it is ridiculous.

I am neither a Moss or Zenyatta “hater,” but for you to say that Moss has too much class (and that might be true) I have yet to see a public exhibition of Moss’s class. Also, I am sorry I am so ridiculous to you.

[tzipi]

So basically one race gets her HOY. Interesting. My understanding of the award was Horse of the YEAR. Not Horse of November 7th.

I really don't see how someone can look at their two respective years, unbiased, and come to the conclusion Zenyatta did more to deserve the award.

Agree,Skip Away had a very good year in 1998 and won the HOY. But remember in that year Awesome Again went undefeated with a 6 for 6 record and WON the B.C. Classic beating Skip Away and one of the toughest Classic fields in history too. Skip Away took almost all the votes in HOY.

[Citation1947]

So winning FOUR Grade 1's and Grade 2 in a 5 for 5 campaign is not HOY worthy?


I repeat, if Zenyatta wins, then it just goes to prove that the award is truly not "Horse of the YEAR"

Other than the Classic(huge win), the rest of her "yearly" campaign does NOT match up with Rachel Alexander's.

[Steve R]

If Unbridled was denied the HotY title after winning the two most prestigious races in North America, the Derby and the BC Classic, there is absolutely no justification for awarding the title to Zenyatta this year, especially since she defeated (and correct me if this is wrong) only one 2009 Grade 1 stakes winner in her starts prior to the Breeders' Cup.

Unfortunately, the whole thing has become nothing more than a popularity contest in a new era of sound bites and self-promotion. So why should anyone get worked up over it...or even care? I've been around racing since Native Dancer was a pup and I am comfortable in making my own decisions about which horse is most deserving. Criminal Type may be in the record books, but I know that Unbridled's accomplishment was superior.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes. But that performance in the Classic was huge. Do you remember the many posters on this board that gave her little chance? I personally thought that her undefeated streak would end. Her connections took a huge risk there, or so I thought.She did go off the favorite...you would think that given what you wrote above, she should have gone off much higher.

Her connections took absolutely no risk...unless you count not being undefeated a huge risk.

What exactly were they risking? In my book, they had nothing to lose, and everything to gain. It was a no-brainer.

[PaceAdvantage]

Other than the Classic(huge win), the rest of her "yearly" campaign does NOT match up with Rachel Alexander's.It doesn't match up with Rachel Alexandra's either....(just kidding).

[Edward DeVere]

If Zenyatta wins HOY, Jess Jackson should do the following in 2010:

Race Rachel Alexandra four times at Churchill Downs against fillies & mares and then run her in the Breeders' Cup Classic.

[Greyfox]

Her connections took absolutely no risk...unless you count not being undefeated a huge risk.

What exactly were they risking? In my book, they had nothing to lose, and everything to gain. It was a no-brainer.

1. Considering she was undefeated her connections took a huge risk in putting an undefeated female in against the best that the world would send was a risk.

2. Yes. They had everything to gain. Win and HOY.

What exactly were they risking?
Zenyatta is a retired 14 time winner.
Rocky Marciano retired undefeated.
Except for the fact that I never raced against her or fought against him,
I'm undefeated too, in those arenas.
In your easy chair behind your computer and after the fact it is easy to pour out comments such as "It was a no-brainer."
This is your balliwick, and did I miss where you said that earlier? ???
Don't let fear and common sense hold you back from where you pointed that out.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Andy Beyer declared it was preposterous that Zenyatta was morning line favorite before the race. And his prerace opinion was backed up by the prerace poll on this website

Everything is easy after the race

[Greyfox]

Andy Beyer declared it was preposterous that Zenyatta was morning line favorite before the race. And his prerace opinion was backed up by the prerace poll on this website

Everything is easy after the race

"BINGO!" :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Greyfox]

So basically one race gets her HOY. Interesting. My understanding of the award was Horse of the YEAR. Not Horse of November 7th.

.
Puhleeese.
That race on November 7 will be remembered 20 years from now by more people than any other race this year by any horse. That race is the "stuff legends" are made of. Believe it or not, Ripley.

[rwwupl]

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/southern-cals-meager-purses-cant-compete-75766957.html

From Las Vegas, Richard Eng--

Excerpt:

• HORSE OF YEAR ODDS -- John Avello, race and sports director at Wynn Las Vegas, posted these odds to win 2009 Horse of the Year: Zenyatta 1-3, Rachel Alexandra 5-2, Summer Bird 20-1, Goldikova 75-1 and Conduit 100-1.

[FenceBored]

Puhleeese.
That race on November 7 will be remembered 20 years from now by more people than any other race this year by any horse. That race is the "stuff legends" are made of. Believe it or not, Ripley.

Nope, if Lady's Secret can be kicked to the curb in the way they did, this quickly, I'm not willing to believe that any horse running today will be remembered, in the way you're talking about, 20 years from now. But, if one is, I think Rachel's Oaks or Mother Goose will be more remembered the Zenyatta's Classic.

[Greyfox]

Zenyatta , Breeders' Cup Classic 2009, most memorable Race of the year and most exciting race for many years to come from a pre-race "drama" viewpoint.

[turfnsport]

But, if one is, I think Rachel's Oaks or Mother Goose will be more remembered the Zenyatta's Classic.

C'mon, you can't be serious...I already forgot Rachel won the Mother Goose until you mentioned it.... :lol:

[tzipi]

Puhleeese.
That race on November 7 will be remembered 20 years from now by more people than any other race this year by any horse. That race is the "stuff legends" are made of. Believe it or not, Ripley.


Yup,that's been said about dozens of races over the last couple years. I just dont think that race over that bunch of horses is going to go down as the greatest or even near the greatest.

Lets see, AWESOME AGAIN goes undefeated,then goes to the BC Classic and wins against!:
Skip Away(ends up being Horse of the Year,not Awesome Again)
Touch Gold
Silver Charm
Swain
Coronados Quest
Victory Gallop
Gentleman
etc

Who did Zenyatta beat compared to that field? Summer Bird,who would've been the second favorite if it was not for overhyped RVW? Rachel whipped Bird.

One of the greatest races(1998 Classic) and no one even mentions that and it was only about 10 years ago.

[Greyfox]

Lest we forget, Trevor's scintillating call:

“Zenyatta is dead last, Zenyatta is dead last early … Zenyatta has a lot a lot of ground to make up. … Zenyatta, if she wins this she will be a superhorse.”

“This! Is! Un! Be! Lievable Zenyatta! What a performance! One we will never forget! Looked impossible. But it is Zenyatta still unbeaten under Mike Smith. What a dramatic performance! One of the most sensational ever! Zenyatta wins the Breeders’ Cup Classic. “

[tzipi]

Are you are saying this is a better race,race wise and competition wise over 1998?

"Zenyatta is dead last,dead last early" Ok was'nt she always? She's a closer. "Zenyatta has alot of ground to make up" Yeah she always does she's a closer. Closers always are last and have to make up ground. It's not like she's a pace horse and got left at the gate?

ALL big calls are like that. They are in the moment.
"AND THE STAGE IS SET,AND ARAZI RUNS RIGHT BY HIM!! BERTRANDO IS STUNNED ON THE INSIDE! HE'S POURING IT ON WITH AN INCREDIBLE MOVE. HEEREE INDEED IS A SUUUUPERSTAR!"
Or how about Cigars Classic call.

[toussaud]

someone hit directly on the point why rachael will win.

Becuase rachael simply was the story of the year at so many diffrent tracks, she is going to simply influence more i nflluential people. she was the toast of the town in march at the fair grounds, april at oaklawn, may in kentucky.. and pimlico, july in belmont, august at monmoth and september at the spa.

there are writers, voters that look at that. that wrote articles about how great she is. that listened to people talk about how great she was all year long. who sat back and made the comprisons.

zenyatta not leaving her state.. that is the downfall. moreso than who she ran against.

not many voters from kentucky, louisiana, arkansas, new york or maryland is going to vote for zenyatta over rachael.

[aaron]

My personal opinion is that no synthetic horse should be given horse of the year,no matter how brilliant,he or she performs. There should be a separate award for best synthetic horse,just like there are separate awards for grass horses. Comparing synthetic to dirt is like comparing apples to oranges. It is not a coincident that dirt horses have not won a Breeders Cup Race in the last 2 years.

[FenceBored]

C'mon, you can't be serious...I already forgot Rachel won the Mother Goose until you mentioned it.... :lol:

Breaking a stakes record with 9f in 1:46.33 and more than 19 is visually more memorable than Zenyatta getting up to win by a length, in her typical fashion.

If you've already forgotten it, then see your doctor, your memory's going.

[turfnsport]

Breaking a stakes record with 9f in 1:46.33 and more than 19 is visually more memorable than Zenyatta getting up to win by a length, in her typical fashion.

If you've already forgotten it, then see your doctor, your memory's going.

If you think for a second that ten years from now people will remember the Mother Goose, a three horse field at Belmont Park in June over the Breeders' Cup Classic, I'm not the one that needs a doctor.. :lol:

[FenceBored]

Lest we forget, Trevor's scintillating call:
“Zenyatta is dead last, Zenyatta is dead last early … Zenyatta has a lot a lot of ground to make up. … Zenyatta, if she wins this she will be a superhorse.”

“This! Is! Un! Be! Lievable Zenyatta! What a performance! One we will never forget! Looked impossible. But it is Zenyatta still unbeaten under Mike Smith. What a dramatic performance! One of the most sensational ever! Zenyatta wins the Breeders’ Cup Classic. “



Hmm, given that Vic was looking for feedback (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59184) on what to say when she won the Vanity at Hollywood this summer, don't you think that Trevor might have had some help with the obviously pre-scripted sections of the call, i.e. the ones you just quoted. I figured the PR department of the BC handed him those lines, given how over the top they were.

[Dahoss9698]

Puhleeese.
That race on November 7 will be remembered 20 years from now by more people than any other race this year by any horse. That race is the "stuff legends" are made of. Believe it or not, Ripley.

Thanks for my first laugh of the day.

Of course, it's a total deflection from my point, but that's nothing new. The award is for accomplishments for the YEAR. Not one race.

"stuff legends are made of"....:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Lest we forget, Trevor's scintillating call:


“Zenyatta is dead last, Zenyatta is dead last early … Zenyatta has a lot a lot of ground to make up. … Zenyatta, if she wins this she will be a superhorse.”



“This! Is! Un! Be! Lievable Zenyatta! What a performance! One we will never forget! Looked impossible. But it is Zenyatta still unbeaten under Mike Smith. What a dramatic performance! One of the most sensational ever! Zenyatta wins the Breeders’ Cup Classic. “






Laugh #2 today.

So because Trevor Denman acted like it was a big surprise that a dead closer....was actually last early (who would have thought that?) it made her race more memorable?

Once again....Horse of the YEAR. Not Novemeber 7th.

[tzipi]

If you think for a second that ten years from now people will remember the Mother Goose, a three horse field at Belmont Park in June over the Breeders' Cup Classic, I'm not the one that needs a doctor.. :lol:


Yeah but you could not probably remember or name field of the 1998 Classic race with Awesome Again going undefeated over Skip Away(HOY),Silver Charm,Touch Gold,Coronados Quest,Victory Gallop,Swain,Gentleman,etc. I never see that race talked about now after all the hype it had after.

This Zenyatta race was better competition than that race? :lol: Yeah the second favorite would've been,if not for the overhyped RVW, Summer Bird. The horse Rachel whipped.

[FenceBored]

If you think for a second that ten years from now people will remember the Mother Goose, a three horse field at Belmont Park in June over the Breeders' Cup Classic, I'm not the one that needs a doctor.. :lol:

How many BC Classics are seriously remembered years in the future? After the afterglow of Zenyatta's victory has passed this Classic will fade into the background like almost every race does. The ones that are remembered are the unusual ones, the driving stretch duals (Ridan and Jaipur, Ghostzapper and Saint Liam, Rags to Riches and Curlin), the unexpected come from behind victory, or a dominating performance in both time and lengths won (Secretariat's Belmont, Ruffian's Mother Goose). Rachel has races that may over time fall into the memorable category, Zenyatta (as great as she herself is) doesn't.

[turfnsport]

How many BC Classics are seriously remembered years in the future? After the afterglow of Zenyatta's victory has passed this Classic will fade into the background like almost every race does. The ones that are remembered are the unusual ones, the driving stretch duals (Ridan and Jaipur, Ghostzapper and Saint Liam, Rags to Riches and Curlin), the unexpected come from behind victory, or a dominating performance in both time and lengths won (Secretariat's Belmont, Ruffian's Mother Goose). Rachel has races that may over time fall into the memorable category, Zenyatta (as great as she herself is) doesn't.

Yeah, now I am sad I did not DVR the Mother Goose. I won't be able to show my grandkids how she drilled her two overmatched foes that day by 19 1/4 lengths...Ah, oh well. I hope Youtube is still around.

[tzipi]

Yeah, now I am sad I did not DVR the Mother Goose. I won't be able to show my grandkids how she drilled her two overmatched foes that day by 19 1/4 lengths...Ah, oh well. I hope Youtube is still around.

You're right most people wont care about Mother Goose as most people will put Zenyatta's BC Classic over a mediocre field on synthetics with turf horses in the past. Again I'm sure you could not remember 1998 Classic or the field until it was written.

I'm happy she ran and won for herself. I like her as a horse,but do not like the connections race picking at all. But why would I DVR a race where she beat a overhyped turf horse RVW and the favorite after that was Summer Bird,a horse Rachel destroyed. It's just another BC Classic now.

[turfnsport]

Again I'm sure you could not remember 1998 Classic or the field until it was written.


And you know this how? I must have forgotten.

I even remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

[tzipi]

And you know this how? I must have forgotten.

I even remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

Because of how you're talking about this 2009 race with that field. That field is nowhere near the top rung of Classic fields.

[turfnsport]

Because of how you're talking about this 2009 race with that field. That field is nowhere near the top rung of Classic fields.

I don't remember saying it was. Unless I forgot. Did I?

[Steve R]

Zenyatta , Breeders' Cup Classic 2009, most memorable Race of the year and most exciting race for many years to come from a pre-race "drama" viewpoint.
Caught up in the moment, are we? The back story of pre-race "drama" has a short life span. In a few years, people will look at the chart and pps and see that the favorite won in exactly the same style she won virtually every other race against a field unlikely to arouse much awe. No one will remember that she was dissed by Andy Beyer. OTOH, Mine That Bird's Kentucky Derby will endure in racing history for as long as there is a Kentucky Derby. I'm not saying he is himself a memorable individual, only that the event was far more dramatic than the BC Classic. Forget all the naysayers. Zenyatta was the favorite in the race, so just because a minority of doubters said she couldn't win doesn't make the outcome any less predictable. By contrast, virtually no one thought Mine That Bird could win the Derby. He did, and the way he did it was far more spectacular.

[tzipi]

I don't remember saying it was. Unless I forgot. Did I?

Well bottom line is no one will remember either or keep the DVR's of them. I mean,yeah maybe remember them if you're fans but some of the talk here about it and it remember for years and years to come is crazy I think.
But yes,I see what you were saying,no prob no one remembers the Mother Goose unless you were a big fan and yeah it was a short field and not much. but no one wanted to face her. The time itself was great though.

[FenceBored]

Yeah, now I am sad I did not DVR the Mother Goose. I won't be able to show my grandkids how she drilled her two overmatched foes that day by 19 1/4 lengths...Ah, oh well. I hope Youtube is still around.

One of those "two overmatched foes" was Malibu Prayer who placed in a G2 and a G3 before winning the G2 Chilukki for 3 &up F/M at CD on Nov. 7th. The other one was Flashing the next out winner of the G1 Test, and in her next start on real dirt (after two subpar efforts on the fake stuff) the G1 Gazelle this afternoon. So, if two solid graded stakes horses, including a multiple G1 winner were so overmatched by Rachel, what does that say about Rachel?

[turfnsport]

So, if two solid graded stakes horses, including a multiple G1 winner were so overmatched by Rachel, what does that say about Rachel?

The discussion was regarding which race will be more memorable, the Classic or the Mother Goose. Flashing can win 5 more Grade 1's, that does not change the fact I think the Classic will be talked about more ten years from now than the Mother Goose.

[PaceAdvantage]

In your easy chair behind your computer and after the fact it is easy to pour out comments such as "It was a no-brainer." It was a no-brainer to go in the Classic...I never said it was a no-brainer that she would win...

But what other choice did they have, especially with Rachel Alexandra this year?

If they wanted any shot at horse of the year, they had to run in the Classic...beating up on nothing once again in the Ladies Classic would have guaranteed her remaining undefeated and retiring 14 for 14, but even though that is impressive, it's not historic.

Like I said...a no-brainer...

[PaceAdvantage]

So because Trevor Denman acted like it was a big surprise that a dead closer....was actually last early (who would have thought that?) it made her race more memorable? I still can't get over the early Trevor call of the classic...he was acting as if Zenyatta was a need-to-lead type...:lol:

Maybe he mixed up his scripts and mistakenly thought he was calling Rachel Alexandra (didn't he know Jackson wasn't coming??)...would have been much more appropriate given the circumstances.

[CincyHorseplayer]

One of those "two overmatched foes" was Malibu Prayer who placed in a G2 and a G3 before winning the G2 Chilukki for 3 &up F/M at CD on Nov. 7th. The other one was Flashing the next out winner of the G1 Test, and in her next start on real dirt (after two subpar efforts on the fake stuff) the G1 Gazelle this afternoon. So, if two solid graded stakes horses, including a multiple G1 winner were so overmatched by Rachel, what does that say about Rachel?


Good points.And not only that in the races vs "tomato cans" Rachel blew them out of the water by open lengths.Zen's neck win over a N2X horse was unimpressive.Then there is the farce of a 3rd surface.

When synthetics are eliminated this Breeders Cup will fade into obscurity.I'll personally remember what Zenyatta did and cherish it.But the surface issue keeps it in perspective for me.

[tzipi]

I still can't get over the early Trevor call of the classic...he was acting as if Zenyatta was a need-to-lead type...:lol:

Maybe he mixed up his scripts and mistakenly thought he was calling Rachel Alexandra (didn't he know Jackson wasn't coming??)...would have been much more appropriate given the circumstances.


I agree,I don't know why Trevor was saying that? Zenyatta is a closer and is always way behind in every race she runs. As I said,he made it sound like she's a speed type who was left at the gate. I like the excitement during the stretch run but the beginning call was a little absurd.
Seemed like he was just saying it to be dramatic for the people who had no idea about horse racing or her. So it looked like she made an unbelievable run while being at a new disadvantage.

[FenceBored]

The discussion was regarding which race will be more memorable, the Classic or the Mother Goose. Flashing can win 5 more Grade 1's, that does not change the fact I think the Classic will be talked about more ten years from now than the Mother Goose.

You're the one who brought up "overmatched foes" to dismiss the memorability of the Mother Goose, therefore what class those girls have shown is relevant. A further note about the Mother Goose. A glance at the Amer. Racing Manual for 2009 shows that Rachel's time was the fastest 9f on dirt by a 3yo filly in at least the past 18 years, maybe longer (unless another girl ran faster this year and I didn't hear about it).

Odds are none of these races will be talked about in ten years, in the sense of someone being overwhelmed about them. The fact that Zenyatta won the Classic is memorable, the race itself was not. If you turned the sound down and didn't know what race you were watching I doubt you'd be 'talking about for the next 10 years' impressed.

[Stillriledup]

I still can't get over the early Trevor call of the classic...he was acting as if Zenyatta was a need-to-lead type...:lol:

Maybe he mixed up his scripts and mistakenly thought he was calling Rachel Alexandra (didn't he know Jackson wasn't coming??)...would have been much more appropriate given the circumstances.

He did the same thing in the Sprint won by Calif flag. He gave his signature 'couldnt be going any faster absolutely flying call' which wasnt true, the leader got loose and unpressured. He also called a fast start for Diamondrella even though she broke poorly and was bumped and shuffled. He just made it up as he went along.

[ghostyapper]

One of those "two overmatched foes" was Malibu Prayer who placed in a G2 and a G3 before winning the G2 Chilukki for 3 &up F/M at CD on Nov. 7th. The other one was Flashing the next out winner of the G1 Test, and in her next start on real dirt (after two subpar efforts on the fake stuff) the G1 Gazelle this afternoon. So, if two solid graded stakes horses, including a multiple G1 winner were so overmatched by Rachel, what does that say about Rachel?

Speaking of rachel's rivals how did macho again do in the clark? What was it 7 out of 13? What does that say about rachel?

[Dahoss9698]

Speaking of rachel's rivals how did macho again do in the clark? What was it 7 out of 13? What does that say about rachel?

Absolutely nothing.

[ghostyapper]

Absolutely nothing.

O I got it. When horses she beats come back to win that means she's even greater. When they lose it doesn't mean anything. Thanks, I figured that

[Dahoss9698]

O I got it. When horses she beats come back to win that means she's even greater. When they lose it doesn't mean anything. Thanks, I figured that

You clearly don't get it. No one is saying Macho Again is a great horse. At his best (which is what he was this summer at Saratoga), with a favorable pace scenario (which he got in the Whitney and Woodward) he is capable of running a pretty good race (which he did). When things don't go his way, he's pretty ordinary.

[cj]

Speaking of rachel's rivals how did macho again do in the clark? What was it 7 out of 13? What does that say about rachel?

There is no doubt horses Rachel beat this accomplished a ton. Do you expect every one of them to come back and run great? These are horses, not machines, some go bad. Horses she was beating by a pole or more came back to win G1s repeatedly.

[ghostyapper]

You clearly don't get it. No one is saying Macho Again is a great horse. At his best (which is what he was this summer at Saratoga), with a favorable pace scenario (which he got in the Whitney and Woodward) he is capable of running a pretty good race (which he did). When things don't go his way, he's pretty ordinary.

Had he won today I am almost 100% sure a rachel love fest thread would have been made saying how a horse she beat came back to win the clark. But of course he runs terrible and we shouldn't bring it up.

[Dahoss9698]

Had he won today I am almost 100% sure a rachel love fest thread would have been made saying how a horse she beat came back to win the clark. But of course he runs terrible and we shouldn't bring it up.

You like to speculate, huh?

I must have missed the Rachel love fest threads when the horses she beat up on came back and won. Can you link me to them?

[ghostyapper]

There is no doubt horses Rachel beat this accomplished a ton. Do you expect every one of them to come back and run great? These are horses, not machines, some go bad. Horses she was beating by a pole or more came back to win G1s repeatedly.

I was merely trying to show both sides since fencebored was only bringing up the great things her rivals did. Is it wrong to bring up any horse who doesn't do great things? Since narrowly losing to rachel he's run 2 clunkers.

By the way I guess it wasn't the pace that beat in the jcgc like you thought.

[ghostyapper]

You like to speculate, huh?

I must have missed the Rachel love fest threads when the horses she beat up on came back and won. Can you link me to them?

This is a weak response hoping that I will not reply with links so you can feel that you won the argument. If you cannot find the rachel love fest threads/posts on this board then you don't know how to use a computer.

[cj]

I was merely trying to show both sides since fencebored was only bringing up the great things her rivals did. Is it wrong to bring up any horse who doesn't do great things? Since narrowly losing to rachel he's run 2 clunkers.

By the way I guess it wasn't the pace that beat in the jcgc like you thought.

Maybe, maybe not. The race was two months ago. I certainly wasn't betting him in the Clark at that price.

[Dahoss9698]

This is a weak response hoping that I will not reply with links so you can feel that you won the argument. If you cannot find the rachel love fest threads/posts on this board then you don't know how to use a computer.

Not exactly. I didn't say there weren't Rachel love fest threads, there are. Just like there are Zenyatta love fest threads.

I just don't remember threads after each horse she beat came back and won. I mean just today a horse she decimated won a grade 1. Can you link me to the love fest thread?

After Malibu Prayer won the Chilukki was there a love fest thread?

[ghostyapper]

Not exactly. I didn't say there weren't Rachel love fest threads, there are. Just like there are Zenyatta love fest threads.

I just don't remember threads after each horse she beat came back and won. I mean just today a horse she decimated won a grade 1. Can you link me to the love fest thread?

After Malibu Prayer won the Chilukki was there a love fest thread?

Go check out the various threads arguing the woodward field was as good as the bc classic field. A win by macho again today would not have gone unnoticed on these boards, thats for sure.

If you want the fact there wasn't a thread after malibu prayer won as proof there would not have been one if macho again won today go right ahead. But its silly and meaningless.

[Dahoss9698]

Go check out the various threads arguing the woodward field was as good as the bc classic field. A win by macho again today would not have gone unnoticed on these boards, thats for sure.

If you want the fact there wasn't a thread after malibu prayer won as proof there would not have been one if macho again won today go right ahead. But its silly and meaningless.

We're talking about two different things. But, where is the love fest about Flashing winning today? I must have missed that thread also. Keep trying.

[Pace Cap'n]

I would imagine that Trevor is not calling the races for the benefit of the television audience. Rather, he is speaking to the many in attendance who have a limited view, if any view at all, of the action as it unfolds around the track. Many of those present were probably somewhat interested in Lady Z's track position.

[Dahoss9698]

I would imagine that Trevor is not calling the races for the benefit of the television audience. Rather, he is speaking to the many in attendance who have a limited view, if any view at all, of the action as it unfolds around the track. Many of those present were probably somewhat interested in Lady Z's track position.

Do you think anyone was surprised that she was far back though? Because Denman seemed so.

[Greyfox]

Lest we forget, Trevor's scintillating call:





“Zenyatta is dead last, Zenyatta is dead last early … Zenyatta has a lot a lot of ground to make up. … Zenyatta, if she wins this she will be a superhorse.”









“This! Is! Un! Be! Lievable Zenyatta! What a performance! One we will never forget! Looked impossible. But it is Zenyatta still unbeaten under Mike Smith. What a dramatic performance! One of the most sensational ever! Zenyatta wins the Breeders’ Cup Classic. “









Dang. I hate to quote myself.



But Rachel A would have been toast on that polycrap, and at the distance.
Their connections probably knew that.
Zenyatta was zensational. They had their chance. Case closed.

[cj]

Oh, it was great because Trevor said so?

Dang. I hate to quote myself.



But Rachel A would have been toast on that polycrap, and at the distance.
Their connections probably knew that.
Zenyatta was zensational. They had their chance. Case closed.

[Stillriledup]

Speaking of rachel's rivals how did macho again do in the clark? What was it 7 out of 13? What does that say about rachel?

Macho Again has made almost 2 million dollars in purses. Very few thoroughbreds make that kind of money. This is a real serious horse to be able to bank it like that.

[Dahoss9698]

Oh, it was great because Trevor said so?
Yeah, when you run out of logical arguements, quote the announcer. Duh...

[tzipi]

Dang. I hate to quote myself.



But Rachel A would have been toast on that polycrap, and at the distance.
Their connections probably knew that.
Zenyatta was zensational. They had their chance. Case closed.
Yup had nothing to do with going to numerous tracks,facing the boys numerous times,facing older horses,running track records almost everytime all while a young 3YO. :rolleyes:
She worked very well over polyturf anyway. Maybe next year Jackson has Rachel stay at one track to run easy races against the same hopeless fillies and mares every race and then win the BC. Actually do not do that. That's just a waste.

[tzipi]

Hey why not run Zenyatta next year. She's a horse,they like to run,that's what they are born to do. She's a girl,so there's not much breeding money as like the boys and we allk now top horses never really duplicate themselves. The Moss's do not need money. So why not race her on a light schedule?
Good for racing,good for Zenyatta,good for all. Then after next year they will have all the time to breed her.

[Greyfox]

Oh, it was great because Trevor said so?

Putting yourself in the same league as Trevor are ye? Dream on. :lol:

[cj]

Putting yourself in the same league as Trevor are ye? Dream on. :lol:

I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion. I'd take him on at the windows every day of the week though.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Go check out the various threads arguing the woodward field was as good as the bc classic field. A win by macho again today would not have gone unnoticed on these boards, thats for sure.

If you want the fact there wasn't a thread after malibu prayer won as proof there would not have been one if macho again won today go right ahead. But its silly and meaningless.


How bout we trace your threads mentioning Rachel Alexandra??You've been hating that girl since June.I'm guessing it's at least 90% of your material.Which in a perverse way validates what she's accomplished.The undeniable hatred you have for this filly borders on,well,you and the HOY title for this board.You are the "Hater" of the year.Had to change is from the other title so you didn't cry to Pace himself.Ironic you stir the pot religiously,then are offended.

I have never seen such a display of piss and vinegar regarding this game.

[andymays]

Putting yourself in the same league as Trevor are ye? Dream on. :lol:


Grey, I've been listening to him on a regular basis since he arrived and here's my take. I agree with the guys that are giving him a jab on the call.

He incorrectly implied that she had some crazy adversity at the start when in fact she was in the best spot for her style. Because of the made up adversity at the beginning of the race, it made it all the more dramatic when she won the race. His call will go down as a great one when in fact he kind of pulled it out of his "you know where". The stretch call was exciting and I give him credit for that.

Trevor was the best way back when but he can't shine Michael Wronas' shoes when it comes to calling races in my opinion.

[gm10]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/on-the-line/11282009-shhhhh-do-you-want-to-know-a-zenyatta/

Excerpt:

But what was sporting about taking a path of the least resistance possible, a four-race campaign in which she beat 22 of mostly-the-same rivals, essentially public workouts for pay, even if her entire year was predicated on, and culminated with, an unforgettable career finale on a non-dirt surface?

The only reason Zenyatta raced in the Classic was because it was her only chance to catch a three-year-old rival she never met, one that compiled what appeared to many as an insurmountable lead in the quest for Horse of the Year honors.

And if the early polling on this site is any measure, the decision to run in, and win, the Breeders’ Cup Classic might prove the winning gambit after all.

But in terms of the rest of her Horse of the Year “season,” it was a campaign devoid of meaningful challenges. No points are scored for shipping to Churchill Downs for her season’s debut only to scratch when the Louisville dirt came up a sea of slop.

To this distant observer, it seems that there is quite a bit of East Coast chauvinism at work here. They way that Zenyatta is being portrayed, reminds me a bit of how the British tend to view American wins. "It was a good performance, of course, but do they have to hype it as much as they do. Don't they know that we race at a higher level?"

Zenyatta beat Gio Ponti, Rip Van Winkle, Einstein, Twice Over, Summer Bird and Mine That Bird. This already includes more quality than RA face throughout the year.
She also beat Life Is Sweet on three occasions, who is very good (she had no problems with Music Note, Rainbow View and Careless Jewel).

Listen, she can only beat those who dare to show up. Rachel Alexandra wasn't there, which is probably good for JJ's ego as she would not have won that race.

[Pace Cap'n]

Do you think anyone was surprised that she was far back though? Because Denman seemed so.

I would grant that it was a bit over-dramatic.

[FenceBored]

Speaking of rachel's rivals how did macho again do in the clark? What was it 7 out of 13? What does that say about rachel?

MA didn't fire at all in the Clark. What does that say about Rachel? Not as much as you'd like to paint it. MA has always had a touch of inconsistency about him. I left him off my tickets in the Clark, despite following him since his maiden breaker, because I thought he was due to run another clunker. His overall quality improved this year and he put together a longer sustained top than he did as a 3yo.

And don't forget Bullsbay, who bombed at the BC, and also failed to fire in the Clark.

The Gazelle had 3 Rachel Rivals (as you called them). Flashing, the winner, faced her in the Mother Goose. Bon Jovi Girl, who finished 3rd, faced Rachel in the G2 Fantasy. And finally, Peach Brew, who finished last, faced Rachel in the Martha Washington.

Satisfied? Of course, not, becuase you're not a serious person.

[andymays]

To this distant observer, it seems that there is quite a bit of East Coast chauvinism at work here. They way that Zenyatta is being portrayed, reminds me a bit of how the British tend to view American wins. "It was a good performance, of course, but do they have to hype it as much as they do. Don't they know that we race at a higher level?"

Zenyatta beat Gio Ponti, Rip Van Winkle, Einstein, Twice Over, Summer Bird and Mine That Bird. This already includes more quality than RA face throughout the year.
She also beat Life Is Sweet on three occasions, who is very good (she had no problems with Music Note, Rainbow View and Careless Jewel).

Listen, she can only beat those who dare to show up. Rachel Alexandra wasn't there, which is probably good for JJ's ego as she would not have won that race.


I live in San Diego.

There is no question that both Zenyatta and Rachel are top equine athletes and I think it is pointless to knock one or the other.

What is biased are the public opinion polls that overemphasize Zenyattas' performance and tend to forget about Rachels' perfomances. On the front page of one Track website (the track that shall not be named ;) ) the poll is as follows:

Vote for the "Horse of the Year"

Rachel Alexandra (238) 31% Zenyatta 69% (519)


This is absurd and any poll showing more than a 5% spread either way should not be taken seriously. This amounts to Horseplayers overemphazing the last race in the PP's which is one of the most common mistakes Horseplayers make. The same mistake applies here.

I would wager that if the connections were reversed and Jackson owned Zenyatta the polls would be much closer. If John Shirreffs trained Rachel the polls would be much closer.

I will be dissapointed that they are not sharing the award but I will not be dissapointed if Zenyatta gets it even though I give Rachel the edge.

[bdownes]

Fence... I guess u better give Trevor Denman an Eclipse Award for his call in the BC Classic.

[delayjf]

He incorrectly implied that she had some crazy adversity at the start when in fact she was in the best spot for her style.

In Trevor's defense, Mike Smith said she practically dwelt from the gate, and when she did break she broke on the wrong lead and stayed on the wrong lead down the stretch, she did seem in a tangle coming down the stretch. Jerry Bailey saw it as well.

I for one thought Trevor did a good job this year calling the BC. Does anyone think any race caller doesn't give a little thought to what they might say when calling a race??

[Greyfox]

In Trevor's defense, Mike Smith said she practically dwelt from the gate, and when she did break she broke on the wrong lead and stayed on the wrong lead down the stretch, she did seem in a tangle coming down the stretch. Jerry Bailey saw it as well.

I for one thought Trevor did a good job this year calling the BC. Does anyone think any race caller doesn't give a little thought to what they might say when calling a race??

:ThmbUp: An astute post.

[andymays]

In Trevor's defense, Mike Smith said she practically dwelt from the gate, and when she did break she broke on the wrong lead and stayed on the wrong lead down the stretch, she did seem in a tangle coming down the stretch. Jerry Bailey saw it as well.

I for one thought Trevor did a good job this year calling the BC. Does anyone think any race caller doesn't give a little thought to what they might say when calling a race??


Good Points.

Practically dwelt is not dwelt and it's all part of the promotion. Nothing wrong with the connections promoting her in my opinion. The stretch drive was dramatic and she did have trouble and had to angle out.

Trevor did do a decent job on this years Breeders' Cup but in my opinion he is the most overrated race caller in the business. He was the best for his first 5 years but after that not so much.

One of the marks of a good race caller is evident when you have to call for results and listen to the stretch drive without the benefit of seeing the race. There are many many instances where Trevors call is misleading and tells you nothing. To be fair that happens to all race callers at times. In my opinion it happens with Trevor far too often.

[Dahoss9698]

In Trevor's defense, Mike Smith said she practically dwelt from the gate, and when she did break she broke on the wrong lead and stayed on the wrong lead down the stretch, she did seem in a tangle coming down the stretch. Jerry Bailey saw it as well.

I for one thought Trevor did a good job this year calling the BC. Does anyone think any race caller doesn't give a little thought to what they might say when calling a race??

To be fair, who cares what Jerry Bailey said? He displayed his agenda on the telecast when he criticized Rachel's connections, but made no mention of the cupcake schedule Zenyatta had.

She stumbled a bit, Smith can call it practically dwelling. Still doesn't change the fact Zenyatta is always last early. Denman made it sound like it was unusual that she was. I get trying to be dramatic but it was disingenuous.

I'm sure announcers give thought beforehand. In my opinion his just seemed real scripted. Like he still thought he was doing voiceovers for that show Jockeys.

[joanied]

From loading to the break, that was a strange beginning to the Classic...and I beleive it had many folks concerned...she balked at being loaded, which was strange, but in hindsight, maybe she was just picking up on QR's antics and it made her nervous...she did look very uncomfortable, until she got on her right lead...but I got to agree, Denman's call wasn't the best, IMO...he did make it seem as if her being last was unusual, why he did that is beyond me...I suppose he was trying to get some drama in, but unless you've been living on the Moon, everyone knows that is her style...so for that part of his call::ThmbDown:
Otherwise, he did a pretty good job, but, nothing against Denman, but I am ready for a fresh voice calling the races out there.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Here's where I jump in and state how much I enjoy it when the races return to somewhere that I get to listen to Vic Stauffer. I've pretty well distanced myself from playing most of the California tracks, but I completely enjoy simply watching the races with a caller that makes each race a unique event.

[gm10]

I live in San Diego.

There is no question that both Zenyatta and Rachel are top equine athletes and I think it is pointless to knock one or the other.

What is biased are the public opinion polls that overemphasize Zenyattas' performance and tend to forget about Rachels' perfomances. On the front page of one Track website (the track that shall not be named ;) ) the poll is as follows:

Vote for the "Horse of the Year"

Rachel Alexandra (238) 31% Zenyatta 69% (519)


This is absurd and any poll showing more than a 5% spread either way should not be taken seriously. This amounts to Horseplayers overemphazing the last race in the PP's which is one of the most common mistakes Horseplayers make. The same mistake applies here.

I would wager that if the connections were reversed and Jackson owned Zenyatta the polls would be much closer. If John Shirreffs trained Rachel the polls would be much closer.

I will be dissapointed that they are not sharing the award but I will not be dissapointed if Zenyatta gets it even though I give Rachel the edge.

I agree with most of what you're saying although I would vote Zenyatta. The Classic will be one of the legendary races of the century. It will be known in wider circles than RA's win agst Macho Again. Hey it may even make the Trivial Pursuit board game.

[delayjf]

To be fair, who cares what Jerry Bailey said? He displayed his agenda on the telecast when he criticized Rachel's connections, but made no mention of the cupcake schedule Zenyatta had.

For that matter, who cares what anyone thinks??

As a hall of fame rider he's more apt to pick up of the more subtle aspects of a horses trip that you or I would miss and IMO he was right in his assessment of the Woodward vs the Travers. You certainly couldn’t say he was biased towards the west coast, since he raced most of his career on the east coast.

I’m inclined to think that Trevor’s call on Z coming out of the gate had more to do with how Z looked (racing on the wrong lead, etc) than the fact that he was last. My understanding of how Trevor calls races is that he formulates his judgments on race pace, trip, etc more or less by the effort he observations rather than by taking a peak at the timer. I don’t know may race callers that will mention that a horse has his ears pricked

[andymays]

I agree with most of what you're saying although I would vote Zenyatta. The Classic will be one of the legendary races of the century. It will be known in wider circles than RA's win agst Macho Again. Hey it may even make the Trivial Pursuit board game.


People keep making a big deal that Rachel only beat Macho Again. The issue isn't as much who she beat as how she did it. Zenyatta had optimum conditions and sat in the perfect spot. Rachel did all the work that day and showed a lot of heart to still win. Rachels race was visually impressive to those who know how tough it was to do all the work in that race and still win.

[Dahoss9698]

Bailey was a great rider. As a broadcaster, I'm not so sure. Either way, we can both speculate what Denman was doing. In my opinion you're taking a pretty big leap in suggesting he was picking up on Zenyatta being on the wrong lead. I think he was trying to be dramatic. Trying to appeal to people who have no clue about the game.

Like when he said Talamo was "in the ride of his life, in the race of his life" while winning the Turf Sprint. Gimme a break. That's right out of the show Jockeys. After the gate opened, the second thing he mentioned was Zenyatta being dead last....twice. And, she went on the correct lead less than an 1/8 into the race. After he went through the field the first time, he again said "dead last", trying to be dramatic.

He completely missed Gio Ponti, until Zenyatta was passed him, despite him taking the lead into the stretch. And did Zenyatta really have a lot of ground to make up, when he said it? She was like 5 lengths off the lead with the pacesetters coming back to the field. I'd rather see Larry Collmus or John Dooley announce the Breeders Cup, if Durkin can't. The drama shouldn't be forced in my opinion.

[11cashcall]

11/27/2009

Alan Shuback
A large part of the argument over who is the superior horse - Zenyatta or Rachel Alexandra - stems from the surfaces they have - or have not - been running on. As American racing now includes three surfaces - dirt, synthetics, and turf - that criteria cannot be taken as a factor in determining which horse is superior. Ultimately it is the quality of the competition a horse has been facing that determines championship honors.

On that basis, Zenyatta is the choice for Horse of the Year, as what she beat in the Breeders' Cup Classic was better than what Rachel Alexandra had been beating all year. Both were undefeated in 2009, but in the Classic, Zenyatta beat the nation's best turf horse, Gio Ponti, and two of Europe's best, Twice Over and Rip Van Winkle. The 3-year-olds Rachel Alexandra was beating most of the year have proved themselves to be second-rate bunch. Zenyatta beat Summer Bird and Mine That Bird in the Classic just as convincingly as Rachel had beaten them in the Haskell and Preakness. Finally, Rachel Alexandra was life and death to win her only try against older males in the Woodward Stakes by a head over Macho Again, a Grade 2 type despite his win in the Stephen Foster, in which he was receiving five pounds from Asiatic Boy and seven pounds from Einstein, who finished up the track in the Classic under weight-for-age conditions.

Moreover, Rachel Alexandra was nowhere to be seen after Sept. 6, with no excuse for her absence other than an inadmissible fear of synthetic surfaces. Zenyatta was where it mattered most on Breeders' Cup Day, when she clearly proved her superiority.




Shuback nailed it with the whole surface issue which imo only muddled
the facts considering how speed favoring tracks or sloppy/sealed surfaces favor certain horses just as much.


The Clark Handicap exposed the Woodward for what it really was.
Overrated.

[Dahoss9698]

Yeah, nothing gets past Shuback. :rolleyes:

[WinterTriangle]

It will be known in wider circles than RA's win agst Macho Again.

I don't have a vote, but since we're discussing who-beat-who, Rip Van Winkle beat Vodka.....twice. Zenyatta beat Rip Van Winkle.

Is this germaine to the argument? Not really. :)

What were the circumstances and condition of the horses in these races, was RVW in the exact same condition and circumstance racing Zenyatta as when racing Vodka? Was Macho Again in top form when Rachel beat him?

Who knows? Macho certainly isn't very consistent. He's 22-6-6-0. Should he be used as a standard in "beating a boy"?
Rip Van Winkle a boy is 9-4-1-0.
Vodka a mare is 25-10-5-3.

How do you compare these?


Just pointing out the "who beat who" argument doesn't really make sense to me, different races, different times, different fields, different ages of horses, who are all passing in and out of their "highest" condition and form, subtlely or not so subtely.

You take a horse like Colonel John, who trainer admittedly said, had trouble staying in form. (Racing took a lot out of him). So, would beating him in the Pac Classic be the same, equal to, or less than beating him in the BC Classic? :bang:

In the end, you just have to step back, and objectively look at the actual racing history of Rachel and Zenyatta, based on what is, what happened on the day of the races they ran, what they did. Then, you add up those accomplishments, without bringing other horses into it. A win is a win. Very simple.

And, by the way, if we're going to stick with the mantra that boys and girls should race together, they are racehorses after all, then we also need to quit bringing up "she beat the boys". We can't have it both ways.:rolleyes: So, should we even be counting wins against the boys in our arguments?

[Investorater]

Personally, I find no fault with Denman's call. Zenyatta was, I thought, a deserving favorite. Many would have been interested in her position early on. What is wrong with dead last? Rachel Alexandra, should be HOY.

[Steve R]

I agree with most of what you're saying although I would vote Zenyatta. The Classic will be one of the legendary races of the century. It will be known in wider circles than RA's win agst Macho Again. Hey it may even make the Trivial Pursuit board game.
Sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement. Yes, Zenyatta was the first female to win the BC Classic. However, she was favored to win and won in exactly the same manner she had won her previous races during the year. Just analyze the pace lines of her five 2009 starts. The race was slow by BC Classic standards and the horses she defeated were mostly the same 3yos and older males that most people have been trashing all year. They don't suddenly become superstars just because they showed up. The fact that the top three were an AWS specialist and two turf horses tells you a lot if only you would listen. Although I thought Zenyatta should have been HotY over Curlin last year, I am beginning to think she is even more overrated than he was. Of course, if someone thinks racing is only about who wins (and not how) or that the drama of come-from-behind winners is more than an illusion, then I can see how someone would be fooled into thinking Zenyatta is the "greatest". From the perspective of the evolution of Thoroughbred physiology, I wouldn't put her anywhere near the greats. She's just too slow.

A legendary race? Not even close.

[tzipi]

I agree with most of what you're saying although I would vote Zenyatta. The Classic will be one of the legendary races of the century. It will be known in wider circles than RA's win agst Macho Again. Hey it may even make the Trivial Pursuit board game.

Ha thats funny! :lol:
Awesome Again goes undefeated beating in the BC Classic:
Skip Away
Touch Gold
Victory Gallop
Silver Charm
Coronados Quest
Swain
Gentleman
etc

And still loses the HOY big time,but this one will be remembered! Yeah Zenyatta beating Summer Bird(who Rachel whipped!) and a overhyped turfer in RVW. Oh yeah,and the turf horse Gio Ponti. One for the ages!!!

"This Classic will be one of the legendary races on the century" :lol: I'm sorry,but go look at all the Breeders Cup Classics.

[andymays]

That tribute was so over the top and with TVG marketing for her I think there will be a little backlash by the people who vote. Just a guess. Look for the articles starting tomorrow.

Didn't Ken Rudulph make some factual errors when speaking of her two Breeders' Cup wins as if she was the only one to win two times?

[Dahoss9698]

I don't have a vote, but since we're discussing who-beat-who, Rip Van Winkle beat Vodka.....twice. Zenyatta beat Rip Van Winkle.



When did Rip Van Winkle beat Vodka? They never faced each other.

[joanied]

"Just pointing out the "who beat who" argument doesn't really make sense to me, different races, different times, different fields, different ages of horses, who are all passing in and out of their "highest" condition and form, subtlely or not so subtely."

The above quote is from Winter Triangles :ThmbUp: post...and she goes on to say that we need to step back and take a look at both Rachel & Zenyatta's complete record for the year...and stop the 'who they beat' stuff...

she is right...we could go on & on & on debating who they beat...but these horses are typically in different 'form' race to race...so that argument, as stated by Winter T, and I agree, is really getting us no where.

Zenyatta has 14 straight wins...and no one can take that away from her...and just how many times in our lives have we seen a 14 race win streak? But this is 2009, and her record stands at 5 out of 5, Rachel is a 3 yr old filly that has done everything asked of her and in one racing season, has a 8 race win streak...
I sound like a broken record, but both truely deserve HoY...I don't think anyone here, or anyone that follows racing can deny the fact each is deserving....
but, alas, the voters have decided that only one can take HoY...and we can only hope that any biases for either horse will be cast aside and that the votes are based on this years accomplishments for each of them.

I look at the PP's, and although Zenyatta won the Classic, and has a star personality...she can dance the dance:) , that just makes folks absolutley love her...having to pick one above the other, I really do beleive Rachel has accomlished more, she had a much more difficult campaign and should, by a vote or two, take down the HoY award. Also, each will take home their division Championships...best 3 yr old filly, best older mare.

We have had a wonderful, fantastic year of racing....what a shame it has to 'end' on such a sour note as to have to choose between two once in a lifetime horses.

[tzipi]

"Just pointing out the "who beat who" argument doesn't really make sense to me, different races, different times, different fields, different ages of horses, who are all passing in and out of their "highest" condition and form, subtlely or not so subtely."

The above quote is from Winter Triangles :ThmbUp: post...and she goes on to say that we need to step back and take a look at both Rachel & Zenyatta's complete record for the year...and stop the 'who they beat' stuff...

she is right...we could go on & on & on debating who they beat...but these horses are typically in different 'form' race to race...so that argument, as stated by Winter T, and I agree, is really getting us no where.

Zenyatta has 14 straight wins...and no one can take that away from her...and just how many times in our lives have we seen a 14 race win streak? But this is 2009, and her record stands at 5 out of 5, Rachel is a 3 yr old filly that has done everything asked of her and in one racing season, has a 8 race win streak...
I sound like a broken record, but both truely deserve HoY...I don't think anyone here, or anyone that follows racing can deny the fact each is deserving....
but, alas, the voters have decided that only one can take HoY...and we can only hope that any biases for either horse will be cast aside and that the votes are based on this years accomplishments for each of them.

I look at the PP's, and although Zenyatta won the Classic, and has a star personality...she can dance the dance:) , that just makes folks absolutley love her...having to pick one above the other, I really do beleive Rachel has accomlished more, she had a much more difficult campaign and should, by a vote or two, take down the HoY award. Also, each will take home their division Championships...best 3 yr old filly, best older mare.

We have had a wonderful, fantastic year of racing....what a shame it has to 'end' on such a sour note as to have to choose between two once in a lifetime horses.

Right on! :ThmbUp: G'nite all.

[ghostyapper]

I would grant that it was a bit over-dramatic.

Did you ever hear durkin for some of rachels calls? He acted like a complete buffoon and was way over the top for her mother goose as well as her woodward. It was like she ran the fasted pace line ever against great competition. In reality she battled a couple of stakes horses then held off a G2 performer for a narrow win in a race she was 1-5 to win.

[ghostyapper]

I wouldn't put her anywhere near the greats. She's just too slow.

A legendary race? Not even close.

As she was too slow to win the bc classic according to you. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

[joanied]

As she was too slow to win the bc classic according to you. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif

:ThmbUp: ...she was way too slow:rolleyes: to compile a 14 race win streak:faint:

[gm10]

Ha thats funny! :lol:
Awesome Again goes undefeated beating in the BC Classic:
Skip Away
Touch Gold
Victory Gallop
Silver Charm
Coronados Quest
Swain
Gentleman
etc

And still loses the HOY big time,but this one will be remembered! Yeah Zenyatta beating Summer Bird(who Rachel whipped!) and a overhyped turfer in RVW. Oh yeah,and the turf horse Gio Ponti. One for the ages!!!

"This Classic will be one of the legendary races on the century" :lol: I'm sorry,but go look at all the Breeders Cup Classics.

about 80% are forgettable, aren't they
don't think this one will be
I was there, it was sensational

[gm10]

Did you ever hear durkin for some of rachels calls? He acted like a complete buffoon and was way over the top for her mother goose as well as her woodward. It was like she ran the fasted pace line ever against great competition. In reality she battled a couple of stakes horses then held off a G2 performer for a narrow win in a race she was 1-5 to win.

:ThmbUp:
That win against Macho Again was nearly too much.
Of course it was a great way to win, but what she beat that day ... would any of us still remember Macho Again 3 years from now if it hadn't been for that race?

[Steve R]

As she was too slow to win the bc classic according to you. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/smilies/47.gif
Thanks for another in a continual line of inane comments. Too slow to win the BC Classic? Is that how your underdeveloped brain interpreted my comments? Obviously not too slow to win a SLOW BC Classic, but perhaps too slow to be considered among the greats. Isn't that the meaning of "from the perspective of the evolution of Thoroughbred physiology, I wouldn't put her anywhere near the greats. She's just too slow."

I recommend a remedial reading class for you ASAP...or perhaps that's even too advanced.

And, of course, your perspective is the right one even when there is a consensus that disagrees. The Racing Post had her Classic as the 3rd slowest in the last 10 years. Beyer had it as the 2nd slowest. I had it as the 4th slowest. But you must be right. She's a freakin' speed demon.

[ghostyapper]

Thanks for another in a continual line of inane comments. Too slow to win the BC Classic? Is that how your underdeveloped brain interpreted my comments? Obviously not too slow to win a SLOW BC Classic, but perhaps too slow to be considered among the greats. Isn't that the meaning of "from the perspective of the evolution of Thoroughbred physiology, I wouldn't put her anywhere near the greats. She's just too slow."

I recommend a remedial reading class for you ASAP...or perhaps that's even too advanced.

And, of course, your perspective is the right one even when there is a consensus that disagrees. The Racing Post had her Classic as the 3rd slowest in the last 10 years. Beyer had it as the 2nd slowest. I had it as the 4th slowest. But you must be right. She's a freakin' speed demon.

Here's the biggest problem I have with people like you (and there are plenty of them). When you make a terrible pre race assumption that a horse is too slow to win a race and then she wins it your response is that she ran in 1 of the slower editions of the race to save face. You never admit you're wrong so you never learn anything and continue your nonsense. A real shame.

[Dahoss9698]

You never admit you're wrong so you never learn anything and continue your nonsense. A real shame.

Pot meet kettle.

[gm10]

Thanks for another in a continual line of inane comments. Too slow to win the BC Classic? Is that how your underdeveloped brain interpreted my comments? Obviously not too slow to win a SLOW BC Classic, but perhaps too slow to be considered among the greats. Isn't that the meaning of "from the perspective of the evolution of Thoroughbred physiology, I wouldn't put her anywhere near the greats. She's just too slow."

I recommend a remedial reading class for you ASAP...or perhaps that's even too advanced.

And, of course, your perspective is the right one even when there is a consensus that disagrees. The Racing Post had her Classic as the 3rd slowest in the last 10 years. Beyer had it as the 2nd slowest. I had it as the 4th slowest. But you must be right. She's a freakin' speed demon.

I think that she showed us that speed ratings only explain so much. She's run in very fast races, she's run in very slow races. But ... she won them all. She's pure class.

[ghostyapper]

I think that she showed us that speed ratings only explain so much. She's run in very fast races, she's run in very slow races. But ... she won them all. She's pure class.

A concept that the statistician will never get grasp. Could you imagine after the race he actually tried to break out the physics formula for weight vs distance traveled to show that Gio Ponti performed better than zenyatta based on zenyatta carrying less weight?

When a result does not come out as he expects he will just look for some other numbers to try and show he was right. Stuck in a loop

[FenceBored]

A concept that the statistician will never get grasp. Could you imagine after the race he actually tried to break out the physics formula for weight vs distance traveled to show that Gio Ponti performed better than zenyatta based on zenyatta carrying less weight?

When a result does not come out as he expects he will just look for some other numbers to try and show he was right. Stuck in a loop

He tried to use physics to examine a physics question? :eek:

[OntheRail]

Did you ever hear durkin for some of rachels calls? He acted like a complete buffoon and was way over the top for her mother goose as well as her woodward. It was like she ran the fasted pace line ever against great competition. In reality she battled a couple of stakes horses then held off a G2 performer for a narrow win in a race she was 1-5 to win.
In the Woodward they where gunning for her and threw everything at RA but the kitchen sink.. she was pressed every step of the way and still held off MA late run at her. A race that kept all on the edge of their seat... so no I don't think Dunkin's call was over the top. A much better race then this years BC... IMO. :faint:

[the_fat_man]

A concept that the statistician will never get grasp. Could you imagine after the race he actually tried to break out the physics formula for weight vs distance traveled to show that Gio Ponti performed better than zenyatta based on zenyatta carrying less weight?

When a result does not come out as he expects he will just look for some other numbers to try and show he was right. Stuck in a loop

The problem is not the use of statistics or physics to make a point but, rather, the lack of even the most basic racing fundamentals. Even the best mathematician or physicist needs to have a clue about his MODEL. With Steve, it's obvious that he lacks even the most basic knowledge when it comes to racing.

At some point, maybe, others will slap him on ignore and I won't have be subjected to his gibberish 2nd hand.

[gm10]

In the Woodward they where gunning for her and threw everything at RA but the kitchen sink.. she was pressed every step of the way and still held off MA late run at her. A race that kept all on the edge of their seat... so no I don't think Dunkin's call was over the top. A much better race then this years BC... IMO. :faint:

I think the key lies in "still held off Macho Again".
That should not be enough to win the HOY title, as thrilling as it was. If Zenyatta had held off MA, how would you have rated that?

[gm10]

A concept that the statistician will never get grasp. Could you imagine after the race he actually tried to break out the physics formula for weight vs distance traveled to show that Gio Ponti performed better than zenyatta based on zenyatta carrying less weight?

When a result does not come out as he expects he will just look for some other numbers to try and show he was right. Stuck in a loop

To be honest, I rated Gio Ponti one point higher as well.
Weight matters imo.

Who would win if they met on equal terms? I cannot say. But Gio P ran a cracker, and the formula is what it is, it's optimized over millions over performances, not just one.

As long as you view speed as A factor, and not the ultimate truth, it's not a problem anyway.

[tzipi]

Big Brown was beating horses that could'nt reach 100 beyers and people were saying he was king. Zen and Rach are beating 100+ beyer horses and we are questioning them. :D

[ghostyapper]

A much better race then this years BC... IMO. :faint:

Well you've outdone everyone here. Not only was the woodward race better than the bc classic but it was "much" better? It sure was a key race with 2nd and 3rd finishers not coming close to hitting the board in their next 2 races and the winner not racing since.

The lunacy is growing.

[Steve R]

I think that she showed us that speed ratings only explain so much. She's run in very fast races, she's run in very slow races. But ... she won them all. She's pure class.
Obviously performance type figures are just part of the equation. However, horses establish patterns over a career and the truly great ones were almost always fast in their winning efforts. And they all had "class". That said, I use lifetime figures to help sort out complex issues of relative ability from a physiological standpoint. And the figures I use are not simply final time figures. They are proprietary and incorporate pace into an assessment of energy output which is the real measure of a performance. They also have a sizable following for a non-commercial product.

These figures also do not discriminate against synthetics. An analysis of the winning figures for all North American graded races over the last three years shows a difference of about a neck between the average for dirt and AWSs. In addition, I do not use projections. Time is time and distance is distance. I don't speculate on how fast a horse "should have" run. Beyer's figures may be biased. Mine are not.

In any case, the figures below are for a large sample of fillies and mares (aged 3 or older) which won at least 5 graded races since 1999. They represent the median figure in all of the graded stakes in which they won or placed. The numbers are on a totally different scale than people are used to and the more negative the number the better the figure. Clearly Zenyatta is among the top fillies and mares of the last decade, but she is nowhere near the animal that some fanatics are claiming.

Beautiful Pleasure, -75
Rachel Alexandra, 75
Nashoba's Key, -64
Banshee Breeze, -63
Azeri, -62
Indian Blessing, -62
Zenyatta, -62
Heritage of Gold, -61
Take Charge Lady, -57
Informed Decision, -56
J'ray, -56
You, -56
Ventura, -55
Ashado, -54
Silverbulletday, -54
Megahertz, -53
Ginger Punch, -52
Riboletta, -49
Hystericalady, -48
Tough Tiz's Sis, -47
Spain, -46
Chilukki, -43
Surfside, -43
Acoma, -42
Mystic Lady, -41

As a reference, these are the median figures for some of the better males since 1999:

Ghostzapper, -105
Medaglia d'Oro, -83
Lemon Drop Kid, -81
Mineshaft, -80
Saint Liam, -80
Albert the Great, -78
Behrens, -76
Lawyer Ron, -70

[Moyers Pond]

John Pricci? LOL

This guy couldn't even keep his job with a real newspaper.

I bet he has visited the west coast a whopping 1x this year, or maybe not even that considering he has nobody like a newspaper to pay for it. :lol:

[andymays]

John Pricci? LOL

This guy couldn't even keep his job with a real newspaper.

I bet he has visited the west coast a whopping 1x this year, or maybe not even that considering he has nobody like a newspaper to pay for it. :lol:


John is on the HANA board because he gives a damn about Horseplayers.

He has an interesting website with a variety of opinions.

He always responds to questions.

What is a real newspaper these days? The last time I checked most were going out business.

You may disagree with his opinions but why knock the guy for having one and then characterizing him the way you did?

[gm10]

Obviously performance type figures are just part of the equation. However, horses establish patterns over a career and the truly great ones were almost always fast in their winning efforts. And they all had "class". That said, I use lifetime figures to help sort out complex issues of relative ability from a physiological standpoint. And the figures I use are not simply final time figures. They are proprietary and incorporate pace into an assessment of energy output which is the real measure of a performance. They also have a sizable following for a non-commercial product.

These figures also do not discriminate against synthetics. An analysis of the winning figures for all North American graded races over the last three years shows a difference of about a neck between the average for dirt and AWSs. In addition, I do not use projections. Time is time and distance is distance. I don't speculate on how fast a horse "should have" run. Beyer's figures may be biased. Mine are not.

In any case, the figures below are for a large sample of fillies and mares (aged 3 or older) which won at least 5 graded races since 1999. They represent the median figure in all of the graded stakes in which they won or placed. The numbers are on a totally different scale than people are used to and the more negative the number the better the figure. Clearly Zenyatta is among the top fillies and mares of the last decade, but she is nowhere near the animal that some fanatics are claiming.

Beautiful Pleasure, -75
Rachel Alexandra, 75
Nashoba's Key, -64
Banshee Breeze, -63
Azeri, -62
Indian Blessing, -62
Zenyatta, -62
Heritage of Gold, -61
Take Charge Lady, -57
Informed Decision, -56
J'ray, -56
You, -56
Ventura, -55
Ashado, -54
Silverbulletday, -54
Megahertz, -53
Ginger Punch, -52
Riboletta, -49
Hystericalady, -48
Tough Tiz's Sis, -47
Spain, -46
Chilukki, -43
Surfside, -43
Acoma, -42
Mystic Lady, -41

As a reference, these are the median figures for some of the better males since 1999:

Ghostzapper, -105
Medaglia d'Oro, -83
Lemon Drop Kid, -81
Mineshaft, -80
Saint Liam, -80
Albert the Great, -78
Behrens, -76
Lawyer Ron, -70

This is all dependent on how you calculate your figures. You do it your way, I do it my way. We both have a strong opinion on whose are best ... no doubt.

By my calculations, Zenyatta is very fast. Her last two races were her slowest, but they are still better than what I get for Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness for example. And I stand by that RA number - Mine That Bird regressed only length in that race (note that I have not tuned these numbers at all, they are fully computerized).

What is beyond any dispute imo, is that Zenyatta is much faster than RA in the last half mile. RA probably went beyond her distance limitations in the Preakness. That she still won, is proof of both her determination, and the moderate level of opposition.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that Zenyatta is a faster animal than RA over anything above 9F. Over 9F, it's a close one. If you want to consider the surface as a factor ... Zenyatta's dirt race (2008) was very good, too. Nearly as fast as RA's best. RA's synthetic race (2008) was decent but nowhere near Zenyatta's numbers.

And this is just speed. I still have my doubts about what RA beat. The only good horse she seems to have beaten is Summer Bird. Do we really think that Afleet Deceit, Just Jenda, Stone Legacy, Flying Spur, Musket Man, Malibu Prayer, Munnings, Macho Again are better than Twice Over, Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Einstein, Colonel John, Awesome Gem and Regal Ransom?

[11cashcall]

By my calculations, Zenyatta is very fast. Her last two races were her slowest, but they are still better than what I get for Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness for example. And I stand by that RA number - Mine That Bird regressed only length in that race (note that I have not tuned these numbers at all, they are fully computerized).

What is beyond any dispute imo, is that Zenyatta is much faster than RA in the last half mile. RA probably went beyond her distance limitations in the Preakness. That she still won, is proof of both her determination, and the moderate level of opposition.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that Zenyatta is a faster animal than RA over anything above 9F. Over 9F, it's a close one. If you want to consider the surface as a factor ... Zenyatta's dirt race (2008) was very good, too. Nearly as fast as RA's best. RA's synthetic race (2008) was decent but nowhere near Zenyatta's numbers.

And this is just speed. I still have my doubts about what RA beat. The only good horse she seems to have beaten is Summer Bird. Do we really think that Afleet Deceit, Just Jenda, Stone Legacy, Flying Spur, Musket Man, Malibu Prayer, Munnings, Macho Again are better than Twice Over, Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Einstein, Colonel John, Awesome Gem and Regal Ransom?



People tend to look at over all figs etc & base their decisions on that & forget abt any internal fractions.Also using the sample size over the yrs. syth. numbers are compressed when compared to dirt so they appear slower.
Looking at both their sheets figs & prior to the Woodward RA has a similar pattern to Summer Bird & agree Zenyatta is much faster than RA hands down.

[Steve R]

People tend to look at over all figs etc & base their decisions on that & forget abt any internal fractions.Also using the sample size over the yrs. syth. numbers are compressed when compared to dirt so they appear slower.
Looking at both their sheets figs & prior to the Woodward RA has a similar pattern to Summer Bird & agree Zenyatta is much faster than RA hands down.
Run that by me again. Zenyatta is faster because....?

[Steve R]

This is all dependent on how you calculate your figures. You do it your way, I do it my way. We both have a strong opinion on whose are best ... no doubt.

By my calculations, Zenyatta is very fast. Her last two races were her slowest, but they are still better than what I get for Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness for example. And I stand by that RA number - Mine That Bird regressed only length in that race (note that I have not tuned these numbers at all, they are fully computerized).

What is beyond any dispute imo, is that Zenyatta is much faster than RA in the last half mile. RA probably went beyond her distance limitations in the Preakness. That she still won, is proof of both her determination, and the moderate level of opposition.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that Zenyatta is a faster animal than RA over anything above 9F. Over 9F, it's a close one. If you want to consider the surface as a factor ... Zenyatta's dirt race (2008) was very good, too. Nearly as fast as RA's best. RA's synthetic race (2008) was decent but nowhere near Zenyatta's numbers.

And this is just speed. I still have my doubts about what RA beat. The only good horse she seems to have beaten is Summer Bird. Do we really think that Afleet Deceit, Just Jenda, Stone Legacy, Flying Spur, Musket Man, Malibu Prayer, Munnings, Macho Again are better than Twice Over, Gio Ponti, Twice Over, Einstein, Colonel John, Awesome Gem and Regal Ransom?
You are the only figure maker I have read who believes Zenyatta is faster than Rachel Alexandra, or that Zenyatta's last two races were her slowest. And you are certainly free to think so. However, when you say that "in your opinion" Zenyatta is much faster in the last half mile, your analysis eludes me. There is no opinion about it. Zenyatta runs the last part of her races in fractions typical of turf horses. OTOH, there is nothing inherently superior to running the last half mile in 46 when you've run the first half mile in 50 compared to a first half in 46 and a last half in 50. Same kinetic energy output in both scenarios. Zenyatta gets no extra credit physiologically for being a come-from-behind type runner. The drama of coming from "out of the clouds" is overplayed, and as I have alluded to earlier, a simple regression analysis of early pace and position predicts a win by Zenyatta by the time they reached the quarter pole of the Classic. Compared to Silky Sullivan a half century ago, Zenyatta is a piker when it comes to winning from off the pace. No magic. No miracle. Just physics.

[GMB@BP]

retiring 14 for 14, but even though that is impressive, it's not historic.


I mean what constitutes historic in your mind? Can you tell me, oh lets say 50 years, who are the other major horses who have gone 14/14?

[Jackal]

It's hard to beat a closer on a track that favors closers. Of the first 80 races at SA on the rug only three horses were able to wire the field. Two year olds won in wire to wire fashion - they simply outclassed the field in every way.

If the SA surface was fair about 1/3 of all type races would be won by front runners.

That stat alone makes Zenyatta the best horse on the rug - not HOTY.

I don't know how many tracks are in the US. I know there are only 5 major tracks in CA. Leaves a lot of loose votes for Rachel. Horsemen tend to remember races they saw live. Many more voters were on hand to see Rachel win.

[OntheRail]

I think the key lies in "still held off Macho Again".
That should not be enough to win the HOY title, as thrilling as it was. If Zenyatta had held off MA, how would you have rated that?

And take away the BC from Zen and you have what.... not HOTY. Take away RA's Woodward and she's still a great fit for HOTY would you not agree? Which begs the question how do you view Zen's narrow win over Anabaa's Creation? A horse not in the same class a MA

As for how I would of rated Zen holding off MA... I would of been very very impressed cause that would of meant she left Cali. And would of most likely of been running on real dirt... so yes I as well as many others would of been very impressed by that.

[OntheRail]

Well you've outdone everyone here. Not only was the woodward race better than the bc classic but it was "much" better? It sure was a key race with 2nd and 3rd finishers not coming close to hitting the board in their next 2 races and the winner not racing since.

The lunacy is growing.
Maybe cause they exerted such an extraordinary effort in trying to run her down they needed a longer rest.... or could not get over being beat by a 3yr. filly... horses have feeling to you know :lol: . But yes in My Opinion the Woodward was much the better race... then the BC.

Go watch it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTMpHvew0U

[gm10]

You are the only figure maker I have read who believes Zenyatta is faster than Rachel Alexandra, or that Zenyatta's last two races were her slowest. And you are certainly free to think so. However, when you say that "in your opinion" Zenyatta is much faster in the last half mile, your analysis eludes me. There is no opinion about it. Zenyatta runs the last part of her races in fractions typical of turf horses. OTOH, there is nothing inherently superior to running the last half mile in 46 when you've run the first half mile in 50 compared to a first half in 46 and a last half in 50. Same kinetic energy output in both scenarios. Zenyatta gets no extra credit physiologically for being a come-from-behind type runner. The drama of coming from "out of the clouds" is overplayed, and as I have alluded to earlier, a simple regression analysis of early pace and position predicts a win by Zenyatta by the time they reached the quarter pole of the Classic. Compared to Silky Sullivan a half century ago, Zenyatta is a piker when it comes to winning from off the pace. No magic. No miracle. Just physics.

a. I can give you every number that I have mentioned if you want. Note that I also said 'above 9F'. My speed ratings take internal fractions as well as final times into account.
b. Do you agree that Zenyatta is faster over the last half mile? Regardless of what you think of late runners, most of the great Classic horses share this common characteristic: they run very fast in the second half of any race above 8F.

I'll give you some recent numbers for that (100 is the maximum, 3 points = 1 length).

Zenyatta in the Apple Blossom: 100
GhostZapper in the Met Handicap: 99
Curlin in his Classic win: 95
Zenyatta in the Classic: 95
Street Sense in the derby: 95
Barbaro in the Derby: 94
Invasor in the Classic: 94
Summer Bird in the Belmont: 93
Big Brown in the derby: 92
Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward: 89
Saint Liam in the Classic: 88
Rachel Alexandra in the Preakness: 72

These numbers are a good measure of how well a horse does in the second half of the race. If a horse can run the high numbers (around 95) and at the same time win a contentious graded race, it usually is a great Classic horse.

[gm10]

And take away the BC from Zen and you have what.... not HOTY. Take away RA's Woodward and she's still a great fit for HOTY would you not agree? Which begs the question how do you view Zen's narrow win over Anabaa's Creation? A horse not in the same class a MA

As for how I would of rated Zen holding off MA... I would of been very very impressed cause that would of meant she left Cali. And would of most likely of been running on real dirt... so yes I as well as many others would of been very impressed by that.

She ran on dirt in Oaklawn. I gave her a 92 for that.
RA's last numbers are 92/94/95/81. Not much difference, and at least she showed that she can handle an other surface than her usual.

Again, the only horse that RA beat is Summer Bird. Take away the Classic, sure, that is an obvious approach when trying to decide on HOTY - at least she still beat the underrated Life is Sweet. Take away the Haskell and all RA beat is MTB + Macho Again.

[andymays]

Big Event Blog: Who beat who
http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2009/11/who-beat-who.html

Excerpt:

I wanted to quantify my view that Rachel Alexandra ran the better campaign this year, so I looked at each of the fields they faced and counted up Grade 1 wins, graded stakes wins, graded stakes placings, stakes wins, and stakes placings. The results are cumulative (e.g., Grade 1 wins count in every other category, Grade 2 wins count in every category but Grade 1, etc.).

Excerpt:

The Classic was amazing--the race of the year--but it doesn't make its winner Horse of the Year in a year that another horse won so many important races while beating so many accomplished horses.

[FenceBored]

I was merely trying to show both sides since fencebored was only bringing up the great things her rivals did. Is it wrong to bring up any horse who doesn't do great things? Since narrowly losing to rachel he's run 2 clunkers.

By the way I guess it wasn't the pace that beat in the jcgc like you thought.

The 'yapster lecturing others on being evenhanded?


:lol::lol: