Do synthetic surfaces hurt developing young horses?

[so.cal.fan]

There has been a lot of discussion on this on the So. Cal. radio programs.
Several horsemen believe the synthetic surfaces impair development of 2 and 3 year olds. The surfaces are to hard on them, especially in the hind end.
They have to grab too hard, it takes too much training and too much out of them.
If this is true, it will be a disaster for California racing.
Any opinions, you guys?

[toussaud]

There has been a lot of discussion on this on the So. Cal. radio programs.
Several horsemen believe the synthetic surfaces impair development of 2 and 3 year olds. The surfaces are to hard on them, especially in the hind end.
They have to grab too hard, it takes too much training and too much out of them.
If this is true, it will be a disaster for California racing.
Any opinions, you guys?

makes sense.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"it takes too much training". The complaints make sense!

[DeanT]

Here are a few quotes about poly from the web.

"Of course this is true. Those tracks are evil. They are bad to bet, cause sickness in horses and people, and I am pretty sure they were responsible for both the Sumatran Tsunami and global warming"
- Andymays

"I don't know either way, but I sure as hell don't know what type of horse to put on them. It's easier to find Bin Laden"
Steve Asmussen

"The quarter horse speed balls that I buy at sales always get tired the last sixteenth. I think it would be better to get rid of these tracks and run on cement. It is better for the horses.
D Wayne Lukas

"We're on a learning curve. Ain't nobody knows a damn thing about the synthetic surface yet. Jockeys don't know how to ride on it. Trainers don't know how to train on it. Management doesn't know how to care for it. The only thing we know for sure is it's good in all kinds of weather."
Carl Nafzger

OK, one of them are actual quotes about Poly. :D

I go with Carl. We do not know enough yet, imo, but hopefully will soon.

[andymays]

There has been a lot of discussion on this on the So. Cal. radio programs.
Several horsemen believe the synthetic surfaces impair development of 2 and 3 year olds. The surfaces are to hard on them, especially in the hind end.
They have to grab too hard, it takes too much training and too much out of them.
If this is true, it will be a disaster for California racing.
Any opinions, you guys?


John Shirreffs said the same thing so.cal.fan..

The quotes out there somewhere.

Thanks for putting me in good company Dean! :)

[DeanT]

You're welcome bud.

Thanks for being a good sport with my jabs at ya from time to time :)

[andymays]

There has been a lot of discussion on this on the So. Cal. radio programs.
Several horsemen believe the synthetic surfaces impair development of 2 and 3 year olds. The surfaces are to hard on them, especially in the hind end.
They have to grab too hard, it takes too much training and too much out of them.
If this is true, it will be a disaster for California racing.
Any opinions, you guys?


Here it is! You can quote John Shirreffs now Dean! :ThmbUp:

http://horseracing.bloginky.com/2009/10/06/shirreffs-running-on-synthetics-like-running-on-velcro/

Excerpt:

With the Breeders’ Cup at Santa Anita Park just one month away and Keeneland’s Fall meet kicking off this Friday, one can bet the already heated debate surrounding the merits of synthetic tracks will be continue to be one of the foremost issues in the racing community.



California-based trainer John Shirreffs, who conditions undefeated champion Zenyatta, has long been a vocal opponent of synthetic tracks and, during a national teleconference today, he detailed why he feels the surface does more harm than good in developing young prospects.

“I personally hate synthetics,” Shirreffs said. “I’m more into developing young horses and I find that young horses really don’t like training on synthetics. I don’t know if you can imagine training on Velcro. When the foot lands, it doesn’t slide, it sticks to the ground. Depending on how synthetic the surface is, the horse can’t rotate the foot into the track and push off.

“Imagine running around flat-footed all the time without getting up on your toes and pushing off,” Shirreffs continued. “That’s probably how it would feel to a human.”

[DeanT]

It's like global warming Andy - anecdotal evidence. You can post one opinion, and then someone else can post one. All they are is opinion.

I believe that we dont know. I don't listen to people or trainers with axe's to grind, or maybe not grind. The science out there is inconclusive. For example, as to the topic starter here is a qualified opinion from "The Science of Horse Training":

http://horsetrainingscience.blogspot.com/2009/03/dirt-vs-synthetic-surfaces-and-training.html

Concerning horses yet to break their maidens, I've charted many half mile breezes on dirt during training and heart rate recoveries are typically around 80%. Heart rate recovery is defined as how closely the profile hits 120bpm and 80bpm and 2 and 5 min post breeze.


However, I see the same HR recovery profile for maidens on polytrack at 6 furlongs! What that tells me is horses going over the polytrack are stressed as much as 50% less than going on dirt.


Anecdotally, it seems west coast based trainers do more 6F and longer breezes compared to east coast trainers. But with the intro of more polytrack training tracks to the KY area, local trainers might need to consider lengthening their breeze sesssions in order to get the same conditioning effect.



if you listen to some trainers they will tell you that they are stressed more on poly, not less, when it appears they might be 100% wrong.

Does anyone really know how to train over this yet? It seems with some trainer percentages on and off them, the bad trainers, unwilling to change have bad records, the good ones have good records. I dont think anyone even knows how to answer these questions about the surface. If they are used right, maybe they are great for the horses?

Again, another about a horse's fitness on synth being important.:

http://horsetrainingscience.blogspot.com/2009/03/dirt-vs-synthetic-surfaces-and-training.html

"When racehorses are at their best, I am absolutely convinced they are safer on the synthetics than they are on dirt."

Let's say you agree with that statement, I probably do.

But there is a qualifier - 'when racehorses are at their best' how exactly can we figure this out?

Collect reams of data, that's how. Chart heart rate response, body weight, gallop speed, blood chemistry, etc. like a madman; organize the data, and draw your own conclusions.

The racing industry has the subjective data from trainers, owners, grooms, exercise riders, to name a few - down pat. Too much info in many cases, probably.

I want to listen to science, not D Wayne Lukas. The horses deserve more than anecdotal whims of trainers (imo).

[andymays]

It's like global warming Andy - anecdotal evidence. You can post one opinion, and then someone else can post one. All they are is opinion.

I believe that we dont know. I don't listen to people or trainers with axe's to grind, or maybe not grind. The science out there is inconclusive. For example, as to the topic starter here is a qualified opinion from "The Science of Horse Training":



if you listen to some trainers they will tell you that they are stressed more on poly, not less, when it appears they might be 100% wrong.

Does anyone really know how to train over this yet? It seems with some trainer percentages on and off them, the bad trainers, unwilling to change have bad records, the good ones have good records. I dont think anyone even knows how to answer these questions about the surface. If they are used right, maybe they are great for the horses?

Again, another about a horse's fitness on synth being important.:

http://horsetrainingscience.blogspot.com/2009/03/dirt-vs-synthetic-surfaces-and-training.html



I want to listen to science, not D Wayne Lukas. The horses deserve more than anecdotal whims of trainers (imo).


Back Leg Injuries Tied to Synthetic Tracks | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52317/back-leg-injuries-tied-to-synthetic-tracks

Excerpt:

A post-mortem report presented to the California Horse Racing Board Aug. 27 at Del Mar tends to support trainers who complain that synthetic tracks lead to more hind leg injuries.

In 2008, 19 Thoroughbreds from a total of 111 that died on synthetic tracks in the state succumbed to catastrophic hind-end leg injuries, according to a preliminary CHRB/University of California-Davis report.

That compared to just one death as the result of a hind-leg injury among 65 Thoroughbreds that succumbed during racing or training on dirt tracks during the same period, according to the report. Dr. Hailu Kinde, who has been with the post-mortem program at UC-Davis since 1991, presented the figures to the board.

"This actually confirms that there are additional hind-end injuries on synthetic surfaces, which is what trainers have been telling us," said Dr. Rick Arthur, the CHRB's equine medical director.


How about a study that confirms what Trainers already knew? ;) :D :cool:

[DeanT]

Phew, my post went over your head :)

If trainers do not know how to train over them yet, how do we know the injury is the result of track and not their practices? Perhaps they are not legging up their horses correctly? Perhaps they are doing quick wo's instead of 6f breezes and they are not getting enough of the right work?

We have a great deal to learn about this - trainers and otherwise. The horses deserve to have this looked at scientifically; I do not think that is too much to ask.

[Robert Fischer]

Here are a few quotes about poly from the web.

"Of course this is true. Those tracks are evil. They are bad to bet, cause sickness in horses and people, and I am pretty sure they were responsible for both the Sumatran Tsunami and global warming"
- Andymays

"I don't know either way, but I sure as hell don't know what type of horse to put on them. It's easier to find Bin Laden"
Steve Asmussen

"The quarter horse speed balls that I buy at sales always get tired the last sixteenth. I think it would be better to get rid of these tracks and run on cement. It is better for the horses.
D Wayne Lukas

"We're on a learning curve. Ain't nobody knows a damn thing about the synthetic surface yet. Jockeys don't know how to ride on it. Trainers don't know how to train on it. Management doesn't know how to care for it. The only thing we know for sure is it's good in all kinds of weather."
Carl Nafzger

OK, one of them are actual quotes about Poly. :D

I go with Carl. We do not know enough yet, imo, but hopefully will soon.

:eek: :D

[so.cal.fan]

The cal breds with the exception of the Unsual Heat offspring, seem to be at a serious disadvantage.
California breeding industry is hurting. Not a good thing.

[Stillriledup]

If owners would just boycott the entry box, we would have dirt back as soon as possible. Just dont enter your horse. Who are these So Cal owners who keep entering. Just stop entering and dirt will come back. Its not rocket science.

[Robert Fischer]

no, doesn't seem to be hurting young horses. So far there seems to be some differences in the specific areas that each of the different surfaces stress.

[tzipi]

Bring back the dirt and keep the Breeders Cup on dirt so we can have the great races we used to. Where great turf horses are just entered for turf races.

[andymays]

Phew, my post went over your head :)

If trainers do not know how to train over them yet, how do we know the injury is the result of track and not their practices? Perhaps they are not legging up their horses correctly? Perhaps they are doing quick wo's instead of 6f breezes and they are not getting enough of the right work?

We have a great deal to learn about this - trainers and otherwise. The horses deserve to have this looked at scientifically; I do not think that is too much to ask.


If you're speaking as a civilian I understand.

If you're speaking as a Horseplayer Representative your position should be that experimenting with surfaces while people are betting is fraud.

Horsplayers have the right to expect as fair a game as possible. Who's been looking out for the Horseplayer during the experiment?

[098poi]

What about the jockey's? I just hope that 10-20 years from now there aren't a lot of them in the hospital with breathing problems. It's all fun and games till someone loses a lung!!

[DeanT]

If you're speaking as a civilian I understand.

Good stuff.

[so.cal.fan]

I'm with Andy....time the industry started looking out for the dwindling supply of horseplayers.
A pledge to reduce takeout would be a start in the right direction.
Going back to traditional dirt surfaces would bring a lot of money back into the game, not just the horseplayers, but the owners.
I know owners of Cal Breds who had to ship their horses back east, because of these synthetic tracks. There is only one group of people more neglected than horseplayers, that would be horse owners. We're tired of trying to support this game!

[illinoisbred]

What about the jockey's? I just hope that 10-20 years from now there aren't a lot of them in the hospital with breathing problems. It's all fun and games till someone loses a lung!!
I'm glad someone else sees the potential human health concerns.I really think there are potential environmental issues too.

[so.cal.fan]

Good point Illinois,
you've only got to inhale that junk all day, unless there is a good breeze, you have a headache at the end of the day if your close up to it.
It really does STINK in more ways than one.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Do synthetic surfaces hurt developing young horses?" YOUNG- any resonses?

[so.cal.fan]

Yes, Ken
John Sheriffs and several other So.Cal horsemen are concerned about this issue and have publicly stated these concerns on morning talk shows.
I have spoken to horsemen at Santa Anita who share this concern, most have had young horses go bad in the hind end, and not ever move forward.
It's a problem that needs our best thinking here. Put all your bias aside, and just contemplate if this is true....what will be the consequences?

[illinoisbred]

Yes, Ken
John Sheriffs and several other So.Cal horsemen are concerned about this issue and have publicly stated these concerns on morning talk shows.
I have spoken to horsemen at Santa Anita who share this concern, most have had young horses go bad in the hind end, and not ever move forward.
It's a problem that needs our best thinking here. Put all your bias aside, and just contemplate if this is true....what will be the consequences?
I've heard the same regarding hind injuries here at Arlington. Also, overall body soreness has been mentioned.

[so.cal.fan]

Young horses are not fully developed in their bones and muscles.
It's bound to be tougher on them.
I anticipated this when I saw the first synthetics, especially at Del Mar that first year. However, it's turning out worse than I thought it would be.
I won't play a two year old race at all now. I'm seriously considering not playing the newly turned three year olds at Santa Anita until at least April, and may start eliminating horses who had tough races as 2 year olds in the fall....even if they are dropping, especially if they are dropping because I now fear that the majority of drops will be negative.