View Full Version : 23 year coma patient "heard evrything"
Dave Schwartz
11-24-2009, 04:50 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com:80/id/34109227/ns/health-more_health_news/?GT1=43001
Man in ‘coma’ heard everything for 23 years
Mother says her son received wrong medical diagnosis after 1983 car crash
BRUSSELS - For 23 torturous years, Rom Houben says he lay trapped in his paralyzed body, aware of what was going on around him but unable to tell anyone or even cry out.
The car-crash victim had been diagnosed as being in a vegetative state but appears to have been conscious the whole time. An expert using a specialized type of brain scan that was not available in the 1980s finally realized it, and unlocked Houben’s mind again.
PaceAdvantage
11-24-2009, 05:04 PM
I hope all those who were screaming here at the top of their lungs in 2005 (and you all know who you were), will come back and tell me ONCE AGAIN how wrong it is when folks step up and fight for those like Terri Sciavo....
NJ Stinks
11-25-2009, 01:10 AM
I don't care what this doctor said. No way I want to live like this guy has and will.
Do you, PA? If so, who do you hope will sacrifice almost all just for you?
PaceAdvantage
11-25-2009, 02:20 AM
I don't care what this doctor said. No way I want to live like this guy has and will.
Do you, PA? If so, who do you hope will sacrifice almost all just for you?Totally separate issue. Take that red herring back...it doesn't work here.
Back to basics...and my basics say you guys can be dead wrong. Kind of like executing an innocent man where the death penalty is concerned (and I am going to venture a guess that you are anti-death penalty, which might put you at odds in cases such as these).
PaceAdvantage
11-25-2009, 03:44 AM
You knew it wouldn't be long before the left had its say...and you KNEW they would have a say, because a case like this, if true, would be a huge boondoggle in terms of some of their core beliefs:
Coherent after coma? Not so sure
Commentary
By Arthur Caplan, Ph.D.
msnbc.com contributor
A Belgian man who was thought to be in a coma for 23 years shared these feelings with a reporter today: "It was especially frustrating when my family needed me. I could not share in their sorrow."At least, that's what his hand typed out on a touch-screen keyboard — a hand that was being cradled by a therapist.
I'm sure this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I, for one, don't buy it.If Houben has been misdiagnosed as being in a permanent vegetative state, then how many other patients are in similar straits? If Houben could still be aware and thinking and now communicating flawlessly after two decades, then what does that have to say about how we deal with people in what medicine refers to as "permanent vegetative states?" And, now knowing this, would it ever be right to decide to stop medical support for someone who had been completely unresponsive for decades?emphasis mine
~~the rest~~
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34132340/ns/health-health_care/?gt1=43001
The death panels have long been in the back pocket of libs.
They surround the issue - abortion and pulling the plug.
They are now ready to move inward and decide more broadly who lives and who dies.
Bochall
11-25-2009, 12:14 PM
Read the story myself and without getting into the euthanasia issue, what an amazing story it is. He said he dreamt himself away...holy hell, 23yrs!
Dave Schwartz
11-25-2009, 12:59 PM
Read the story myself and without getting into the euthanasia issue, what an amazing story it is. He said he dreamt himself away...holy hell, 23yrs!
Ah, a man who can say that sometimes a story is just a story (instead of a political battlefield).
It was an amazing story, wasn't it?
Dave
Valuist
11-25-2009, 01:05 PM
But the big question is, would you rather date a deaf or blind woman?
George: I'd rather date a blind woman. A blind woman doesn't really know you aren't good enough for her.
Elaine: I think she could figure it out anyways.
highnote
11-25-2009, 02:08 PM
A bioethics professor in the article also had this to say:
Arthur Caplan, a bioethics professor at the University of Pennsylvania, said he is skeptical of Houben's ability to communicate after seeing video of his hand being moved along the keyboard.
"That's called 'facilitated communication,'" Caplan said. "That is ouija board stuff. It's been discredited time and time again. When people look at it, it's usually the person doing the pointing who's doing the messages, not the person they claim they are helping."
Caplan also said the statements Houben allegedly made with the computer seem unnatural for someone with such a profound injury and an inability to communicate for decades.
The Judge
11-25-2009, 02:46 PM
I am sure they are smart enough to figure out all they have to do is have someone assist him that doesn't speak his language, then see what he spells out by his movements or ask him questions that only he and close relatives or friends know the answer too.
highnote
11-25-2009, 03:03 PM
I am sure they are smart enough to figure out all they have to do is have someone assist him that doesn't speak his language, then see what he spells out by his movements or ask him questions that only he and close relatives or friends know the answer too.
Good idea. I wonder if they've done that, yet?
To what end?
You still want to pull the plug?
Ever hear of amnesia?
Holy Moly....the dude is alive. Now you want him to jump through hoops? :eek:
The Judge
11-25-2009, 06:36 PM
"want" him to do anything even if I did what difference does it make to you? The fact that he is "alive" isn't what put him in the international lime light now is it.
GameTheory
11-26-2009, 09:35 AM
I would also be very suspicious of the the facilitated communication stuff -- that has been used lots of times to accuse people of sexual abuse when the non-communicative person is just being used as a tool of the accuser. Most of the time it is fake (how come they are always so eloquent and don't misspell things?).
If he "heard everything" it would be easy enough to ask him about some of the events that he overheard in all those years -- events the facilitator has no knowledge of...
it's a fraud.
If not , it's easy to show he is more than "just alive".
Show a picture to only the coma boy and one only to the "helper", ask them(him) to type what the "just alive guy" saw.
Do it three times.
Easy to find out if any were interested in other than a political post which is obviously what the Pa rantings were intended to start.
A joke , the story is not amazing or stupid , just the stuff people want to draw into it.
That's the amazin mets part of the deal , per usual.
And the gvt has no rights here or there if the family is involved or a legal guardian as long as the family can pay for the care. Amazing that those who don't want the gvt to run 1/6 of the economy are ok with any gvt running the life and death biz of a family.
A version of reality... some should at least try for same! :D
highnote
11-27-2009, 01:53 PM
it's a fraud.
If not , it's easy to show he is more than "just alive".
Show a picture to only the coma boy and one only to the "helper", ask them(him) to type what the "just alive guy" saw.
Do it three times.
Easy to find out if any were interested in other than a political post which is obviously what the Pa rantings were intended to start.
A joke , the story is not amazing or stupid , just the stuff people want to draw into it.
That's the amazin mets part of the deal , per usual.
And the gvt has no rights here or there if the family is involved or a legal guardian as long as the family can pay for the care. Amazing that those who don't want the gvt to run 1/6 of the economy are ok with any gvt running the life and death biz of a family.
A version of reality... some should at least try for same! :D
If the man in the coma can hear then a doctor could whisper a word in his ear while the caretaker is out of the room.
Then bring the caretaker back in and have her hold his hand as he guides her over the keyboard. If the correct words are typed several times then it could be reasoned to be more than random luck.
There are people out there not in comas - some post here on occasion - that could not do that task! :lol:
highnote
11-27-2009, 02:51 PM
There are people out there not in comas - some post here on occasion - that could not do that task! :lol:
I resemble that remark. :(
Horseplayersbet.com
11-27-2009, 04:06 PM
I would like to see what this guy writes when the caretaker is blind folded.
I'm hoping this is legit, but it reminds me too much of a Ouija board.
GameTheory
11-27-2009, 04:14 PM
Well, apparently the brain scan did show more activity than would be there with a normal vegetative state person, so it is worth pursuing trying to communicate, but this facilitated communication stuff has been shown to be fraudulent over and over so I'd need to see some tests that cannot be faked as suggested above.
Rookies
11-27-2009, 10:49 PM
Well, apparently the brain scan did show more activity than would be there with a normal vegetative state person, so it is worth pursuing trying to communicate, but this facilitated communication stuff has been shown to be fraudulent over and over so I'd need to see some tests that cannot be faked as suggested above.
Indeed. I wish it were true, but it's not. It's been debunked as non science for quite a while.
The American Psychological Association has issued a position paper on FC (http://www.apa.org/about/division/cpmscientific.html#4), stating that "Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that facilitated communication is not a scientifically valid technique for individuals with autism or mental retardation" and describing FC as "a controversial and unproved communicative procedure with no scientifically demonstrated support for its efficacy."
While several studies have indicated that facilitated communication does tap into the mind of a person who heretofore had been incommunicado, most studies have shown that facilitated communication only taps into the beliefs and expectations of the facilitator. Many control studies have failed to produce strong evidence that facilitated communication works. Defenders of FC routinely criticize as insignificant or malicious those studies that fail to validate FC. Yet, it is unlikely that there is a massive conspiracy on the part of all those who have done research on this topic and have failed to arrive at findings agreeable to the FCI.
More at : http://www.skepdic.com/facilcom.html
PaceAdvantage
11-27-2009, 10:52 PM
When this particular case is debunked, I'm sure someone will let us know here in this thread.
Rookies
11-27-2009, 10:56 PM
When this particular case is debunked, I'm sure someone will let us know here in this thread.
Since FC is clearly debatable and has not been established scientifically... then the obvious question is:
A Belgian man who was thought to be in a coma for 23 years shared these feelings with a reporter today: "It was especially frustrating when my family needed me. I could not share in their sorrow."At least, that's what his hand typed out on a touch-screen keyboard — a hand that was being cradled by a therapist.
Did he actually say this ?
chickenhead
11-28-2009, 10:11 PM
23 years trapped fully conscious inside a dead body laying on a bed sounds worse than any nightmare. I'd choose vegetative over that, and letting nature take its course over either.
johnhannibalsmith
11-28-2009, 11:08 PM
I highly recommend reading "Johnny Got His Gun" for a truly unique literary experience in this department.
Pace Cap'n
11-28-2009, 11:12 PM
I highly recommend reading "Johnny Got His Gun" for a truly unique literary experience in this department.
I saw the movie, quite possibly the most depressing film ever made.
Bochall
11-29-2009, 12:32 AM
And what was he trying to communicate all that time???...."kill me".
chickenhead
11-29-2009, 12:51 AM
I've seen the highly abridged version of the movie, Metallica's "One" video.
docicu3
11-29-2009, 01:44 AM
Well, apparently the brain scan did show more activity than would be there with a normal vegetative state person, so it is worth pursuing trying to communicate, but this facilitated communication stuff has been shown to be fraudulent over and over so I'd need to see some tests that cannot be faked as suggested above.
Blood flow through the thalmus which should be ischemic in PVS cases. If the area responsible for consciousness is not without blood flow the diagnosis is suspect....Most experienced docs in Critical Care have isolated cases with a scenario like the one written about here but few get this kind of publicity.
johnhannibalsmith
11-29-2009, 11:09 AM
I've seen the highly abridged version of the movie, Metallica's "One" video.
I must admit... I'm not exactly the prototypical headbanger, but that is one music video that I did see as well... and I actually sort of liked it... :faint:
OTM Al
11-29-2009, 12:55 PM
Doesn't anyone here see a bit of a problem with using facilitated communication with a guy that is supposed to be essentially paralyzed? Were he able to move, don't you think someone would have realized he could communicate long ago? My boss is a neural scientist and he thought the story was pretty neat and possible until he found out about the facilitated communication. The brain is very complex and scientists have likely learned a few more clues from this case, but it's very doubtful it was the breakthrough that was originally hoped for.
Steve 'StatMan'
11-29-2009, 02:59 PM
What did the spirit of the paralyzed man in the coma for 23 years say when they said his brain was conscious via facilitated communication?
--- Now I've heard everyting!
As I gaze upon your lovely dome, I realize there's no one home.
PaceAdvantage
11-29-2009, 09:52 PM
I would like to see what this guy writes when the caretaker is blind folded.
I'm hoping this is legit, but it reminds me too much of a Ouija board.This article seems to indicate these concerns were addressed:
The novel method of communication has not convinced all medical experts, however. “It’s Ouija board stuff. It’s been discredited time and again when people look at it. It’s usually the person who is doing the pointing who is doing the messages,” Arthur Caplan, Professor of Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, said after watching a video of the pair.
The spectacle is so incredible that even Steven Laureys, the neurologist who discovered Mr Houben’s potential, had doubts about its authenticity. He decided to put it to the test.
“I showed him objects when I was alone with him in the room and then, later, with his aide, he was able to give the right answers,” Professor Laureys said. “It is true.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6930608.ece
highnote
11-29-2009, 09:58 PM
I hope it's true that he can communicate. Maybe he will be able to provide some kind of information that will help unlock him from his state.
Steve 'StatMan'
11-29-2009, 10:52 PM
I hope it's true that he can communicate. Maybe he will be able to provide some kind of information that will help unlock him from his state.
I do hope so too.
Rookies
11-29-2009, 11:26 PM
[QUOTE=Steve 'StatMan']What did the spirit of the paralyzed man in the coma for 23 years say when they said his brain was conscious via facilitated communication?QUOTE]
Steve... it's of course what he was reputed to have said. This was a fairly sophisticated thought ( certainly for half this Forum) after being held in suspended animation for 23 years.
One would have thought:
" Hi Ma, what's happening ? " , would have been more appropriate. As wonderful as this story is, FC is something that I have a personal understanding of.
I'm not buying it.
Steve 'StatMan'
11-30-2009, 12:17 AM
Yeah, while I hope it's true, I agree, there would be other more important things, or generarlly more warm things when a family communicates for the first time in 23 years after a tragedy, so I'm still quite skeptical. Yeah, a Mom, Dad, Brother, Sister, I love you, I'm alive & still in this body (or the Flemish, French, or whatever language he speaks.)
PaceAdvantage
11-30-2009, 09:12 PM
I'm not buying it.So you don't believe Dr. Laureys whom I quoted above?
The spectacle is so incredible that even Steven Laureys, the neurologist who discovered Mr Houben’s potential, had doubts about its authenticity. He decided to put it to the test.
“I showed him objects when I was alone with him in the room and then, later, with his aide, he was able to give the right answers,” Professor Laureys said. “It is true.”
Rookies
12-01-2009, 10:38 PM
I'm afraid not, PA.
Clearly, independent verification is needed in this or any other similar situation. This means NOBODY connected with this man.
But, it's such a nice story, I'm not pushing for that.
I think you should just leave it too.
PaceAdvantage
12-02-2009, 11:51 AM
I'm afraid not, PA.
Clearly, independent verification is needed in this or any other similar situation. This means NOBODY connected with this man.
But, it's such a nice story, I'm not pushing for that.
I think you should just leave it too.If this were all some sort of cruel hoax, I'm surprised such hasn't been revealed by now...the longer it goes, the more likely it is for real...
I'm sure the "Right to Die" folks are really hoping this story goes away quietly...
chickenhead
12-02-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm sure the "Right to Die" folks are really hoping this story goes away quietly...
I really don't understand why you think that. Every day people that are fully conscious go into hospice to die. If people do not want to be kept alive with machines, they don't want to be kept alive with machines. This has zero bearing on that.
For plenty of people, myself included, if this has any effect at all, it's to reinforce the importance of making sure those instructions get passed along.
If this guy lived 23 years like this and is happy about it, I'm happy for him. That doesn't have any bearing on what I want, for myself.
johnhannibalsmith
12-02-2009, 12:22 PM
I...For plenty of people, myself included, if this has any effect at all, it's to reinforce the importance of making sure those instructions get passed along.
If this guy lived 23 years like this and is happy about it, I'm happy for him. That doesn't have any bearing on what I want, for myself.
Thank you for taking the time to type something that allows me to simply agree entirely! :ThmbUp:
PaceAdvantage
12-02-2009, 09:31 PM
I really don't understand why you think that. Every day people that are fully conscious go into hospice to die. If people do not want to be kept alive with machines, they don't want to be kept alive with machines. This has zero bearing on that.
For plenty of people, myself included, if this has any effect at all, it's to reinforce the importance of making sure those instructions get passed along.
If this guy lived 23 years like this and is happy about it, I'm happy for him. That doesn't have any bearing on what I want, for myself.I'm not talking about people who have expressed a clear desire not to be kept alive with machines.
I'm all for people being allowed to have living wills and DNRs...
chickenhead
12-02-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm not talking about people who have expressed a clear desire not to be kept alive with machines.
I'm all for people being allowed to have living wills and DNRs...
All Right to Die is is the belief that people have to Right to make these decisions. So you are a Right to Die folk as well. (some people are not, they would be the "anti-right to die folks")
what you are really talking about is what is acceptable as proof of what someone wanted. Tricky issue for sure -- for obvious reasons -- but kind of all the time, into perpetuity. There is nothing that can ever make it any more or less difficult to wrestle with. Obviously no matter what the law is, some people will not be getting their wishes fulfilled (either way) on this most important of decisions.
Everyone has the right to die. No government has the authority to tell people what their rights are. That is between the person and their God or conscience. We have to stop thinking that governments grant anyone rights.
They can only interfere with them. Human Rights are inherent, not granted.
PaceAdvantage
12-03-2009, 10:13 PM
Everyone has the right to die. No government has the authority to tell people what their rights are. That is between the person and their God or conscience. We have to stop thinking that governments grant anyone rights.
They can only interfere with them. Human Rights are inherent, not granted.It looks like I phrased myself incorrectly.
Yes, everyone has the right to die as they please, but in cases such as Terri Schiavo, do you have the RIGHT to tell someone else how/when to die, in the absence of any clear evidence as to how they wish to live or die?
chickenhead
12-03-2009, 11:32 PM
It looks like I phrased myself incorrectly.
Yes, everyone has the right to die as they please, but in cases such as Terri Schiavo, do you have the RIGHT to tell someone else how/when to die, in the absence of any clear evidence as to how they wish to live or die?
Someone has to make medical decisions -- generally the family. In Shiavos case the family disagreed on what she would have wanted -- which is a tragedy in and of itself. Thankfully that's the exception.
It will always be tragic. We are talking about brain damage and incapacitation and death. Families have always made these calls, since time began. We've created the idea of living wills fairly recently to have our own say. If I couldn't or didn't get my own wishes down, of course I would want my family making the calls. Who would I possibly trust more, to know what I would have wanted, and to make sure it's done?
Just because families sometimes disagree doesn't mean there is any better alternative.
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