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Mike_412
11-20-2009, 02:17 PM
Has anyone from HANA contacted either side? Just curious as there haven't been many articles out there on what's going on. As usual, the horseplayer suffers and is left in the dark.

Outside of CD and FG running now, major winter meets at GP, SA, and OAK are right around the corner so I'm slightly uneasy as to what is going on.

Thanks in advance to any representatives that chime in.

bettheoverlay
11-20-2009, 03:30 PM
Is Oaklawn also a part of Tracknet? There's not going to be much left to play this winter if this keeps dragging on.

Jeff P
11-20-2009, 03:35 PM
Mike,

I contacted both NYRA and NJBets several weeks ago. The dispute, of course, was over money... or more specifically that NJBets was allegedly showing the live NYRA signal without having first paid for the rights to do so... so NYRA pulled the live track signal... which may have cost them more than the requested signal fee - because unless I am mistaken recently reported handle numbers for Belmont 2009 were down almost $100 million compared to Belmont 2008.

Signal blackouts leave the customer hanging out to dry... and hurt the entire game in the process.

To be truthful... No. I hadn't written either side regarding the recent impasse between CDI/TrackNet and NJSea. Taking you at your suggestion... I just did that a few minutes ago - and will report back with a post in this thread once a reply is (or clearly isn't) received.


-jp

.

the_fat_man
11-20-2009, 03:39 PM
Mike,

unless I am mistaken recently reported handle numbers for Belmont 2009 were down almost $100 million compared to Belmont 2008.



But, I'm happy to report that BOTH turf courses are in excellent condition. And, they'll continue as such until next spring. What's $100 million when the condition of these courses is at stake?:rolleyes:

What a bunch of clowns at NYRA. They deserve everything they get. I suppose they figured that alienating bettors would not affect their handle. :lol:

Mike_412
11-20-2009, 04:17 PM
Thanks for the response Jeff. We're lucky to have you and all members of HANA around. Your work is very much appreciated.

Overlay,

I'm about 99% positive that Oaklawn is one of the signals controlled by Tracknet.

rrbauer
11-20-2009, 04:38 PM
Overlay,

I'm about 99% positive that Oaklawn is one of the signals controlled by Tracknet.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/41365/tracknet-announces-agreement-with-oaklawn-park

Jeff P
11-24-2009, 01:42 PM
HANA put the following questions to upper management of both CDI/Tracknet and tracks from the Mid-Atlantic Coop:

1. Are you seeking a percentage increase?

2. Is the other side seeking a percentage increase?

3. Are issues other than percentages/price involved? If so, what are they?

4. Is there a date/timeframe by which the dispute is expected to be resolved?


HANA received replies back from the Mid Atlantic Coop tracks.

So far, CDI/Tracknet has (apparently) chosen not to reply.

Here's what HANA has learned:

Nature of Dispute?
Money.

TrackNet is the side seeking a price increase - estimated to be between 15-20 percent over present costs.

Other Issues?
TrackNet is also insisting on something called a "Local Dispute" clause, which would essentially enable TrackNet to discontinue providing simulcasts to one or more of Mid Atlantic tracks if there is a local law or regulation in that Member track's jurisdiction that materially impacts TrackNet including their ADWs XpressBet or Twin Spires.

(Translation of that last one? If such language were added to the contract TrackNet would be within their rights to pull track signals from Mid Atlantic Tracks if a source market fee were or went into existence.)

Timeframe/ETA for resolution?
Right now things don't look promising.


-jp

.

Mike_412
11-24-2009, 03:02 PM
Thanks for the update Jeff. Sadly, things don't look too promising for the upcoming Gulfstream and Santa Anita meets it seems. I shouldn't be surprised as those are two of my favorite meets to play and this game has a way of biting the horseplayer in the a$$.

DeanT
11-24-2009, 04:47 PM
A little "signal impasse redux" on the blog today.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/11/past-predicts-future.html

johnhannibalsmith
11-24-2009, 04:48 PM
Thank you for the effort at updates. :ThmbUp:

Canarsie
11-24-2009, 05:53 PM
Without a doubt CDI/Tracknet is the bookmakers best friend right now :bang:

rrbauer
11-24-2009, 06:37 PM
Thanks for the update Jeff. Sadly, things don't look too promising for the upcoming Gulfstream and Santa Anita meets it seems. I shouldn't be surprised as those are two of my favorite meets to play and this game has a way of biting the horseplayer in the a$$.

Magna tracks. Magna is in bed with CDI vis-a-vis TrackNet. Shouldn't be an issue at the tracks you mention. What you're seeing in the dispute with Mid-Atlantic tracks is the continuing playout of the monopoly mentality. Mid-Atlantic tracks should tell TrackNet to go to hell. Horseplayers should tell TrackNet, CDI and Magna to go to hell. Support the non-TrackNet tracks and screw the rest.

Happy Thanksgiving!! :)

Horseplayersbet.com
11-24-2009, 07:54 PM
Magna tracks. Magna is in bed with CDI vis-a-vis TrackNet. Shouldn't be an issue at the tracks you mention. What you're seeing in the dispute with Mid-Atlantic tracks is the continuing playout of the monopoly mentality. Mid-Atlantic tracks should tell TrackNet to go to hell. Horseplayers should tell TrackNet, CDI and Magna to go to hell. Support the non-TrackNet tracks and screw the rest.

Happy Thanksgiving!! :)
Horseplayersbet.com doesn't have Tracknet. Are you telling me that I should view this as a good thing :)

Mike_412
11-24-2009, 08:59 PM
Magna tracks. Magna is in bed with CDI vis-a-vis TrackNet. Shouldn't be an issue at the tracks you mention.

I'm not following you here. Tracknet controls the signal for all CDI and Magna owned tracks as well as Oaklawn. Why wouldn't this dispute affect GP, SA, and Oak if it carries on for another month or so?

rrbauer
11-25-2009, 12:09 AM
I'm not following you here. Tracknet controls the signal for all CDI and Magna owned tracks as well as Oaklawn. Why wouldn't this dispute affect GP, SA, and Oak if it carries on for another month or so?

I may have misunderstood your problem, if you're wanting to bet those tracks via simulcast from a Mid-Atlantic track location then I guess it's an issue if they're not carrying them. I was looking at it from the perspective of betting the Mid-Atlantic tracks via a TrackNet location. I wouldn't bet a dime of anyone's money at any of those tracks (the ones that you mention) but if I really had to bet one of them I'd get an account at TwinSpires or XpressBet, pick up the phone and bet the living dog crap out of them. Then I guess the issue becomes not being able to watch the races you're betting on. Of course, if you're betting them via the Internet then you should be able to watch the races via the Internet.

This is the issue that has been whirling around for years with tracks withholding their signals, etc. I mean, when they do this they're saying, "We don't want you to have our product, unless you pay through the nose, get on your knees and beg and kiss our ass in the process."

This is NOT OK in my book and I gladly do without their product. It is hardly the end of the world if there are tracks that aren't letting me buy their product. The racing at those locations just ain't that good, anyway! IMHO, of course.... :)

rrbauer
11-25-2009, 12:12 AM
Horseplayersbet.com doesn't have Tracknet. Are you telling me that I should view this as a good thing :)

Amen brother, amen!

Track Collector
11-25-2009, 07:22 PM
Magna tracks. Magna is in bed with CDI vis-a-vis TrackNet. Shouldn't be an issue at the tracks you mention. What you're seeing in the dispute with Mid-Atlantic tracks is the continuing playout of the monopoly mentality. Mid-Atlantic tracks should tell TrackNet to go to hell. Horseplayers should tell TrackNet, CDI and Magna to go to hell. Support the non-TrackNet tracks and screw the rest.

Happy Thanksgiving!! :)

I too side with the mid-Atlantic tracks. Tracknet thinks they deserves a premium for their signals, but I really do not see anything special. If mid-Atlantic tracks give in, they can expect the same push for higher rates in subsequent years. Just say no and let the the CDI/Magna tracks see a significant handle dip by losing 15+ outlets. Kind of reminds me of what happened with Calder the other year when the horsemen got greedy and refused to approve the simulcasting. I think handle dropped 40%.

Charli125
11-26-2009, 12:29 AM
Has anyone from HANA contacted either side? Just curious as there haven't been many articles out there on what's going on. As usual, the horseplayer suffers and is left in the dark.

Outside of CD and FG running now, major winter meets at GP, SA, and OAK are right around the corner so I'm slightly uneasy as to what is going on.

Thanks in advance to any representatives that chime in.

Mike,

I just wanted you to know that we're still working on this, and will keep you posted on any updates. We'll keep the summary on this section of our blog: http://hanareport.blogspot.com/2009/11/issue-cditracknet-is-not-making-mid.html

Unfortunately, there are no new updates right now.

njcurveball
11-26-2009, 03:34 AM
TrackNet is also insisting on something called a "Local Dispute" clause, which would essentially enable TrackNet to discontinue providing simulcasts to one or more of Mid Atlantic tracks if there is a local law or regulation in that Member track's jurisdiction that materially impacts TrackNet including their ADWs XpressBet or Twin Spires.

Looks like racing in New Jersey is going to die quickly since TrackNet can basically pull ALL of their signals out, even if the Mid Atlantic Coop reaches an agreement.

Really a head scratcher why NJ continues to be in bed with opposing states with slot machines who really do not need the simulcast signal to survive.

Thanks for the updates! :ThmbUp:

castaway01
11-28-2009, 10:38 AM
TrackNet is also insisting on something called a "Local Dispute" clause, which would essentially enable TrackNet to discontinue providing simulcasts to one or more of Mid Atlantic tracks if there is a local law or regulation in that Member track's jurisdiction that materially impacts TrackNet including their ADWs XpressBet or Twin Spires.

Looks like racing in New Jersey is going to die quickly since TrackNet can basically pull ALL of their signals out, even if the Mid Atlantic Coop reaches an agreement.

Really a head scratcher why NJ continues to be in bed with opposing states with slot machines who really do not need the simulcast signal to survive.

Thanks for the updates! :ThmbUp:

I know the state of New Jersey can usually be blamed for most things, but don't you figure they negotiate as a groupl with all of the other mid-Atlantic states so they have a lot more leverage than they otherwise would negotiating alone? Isn't that simple common sense?

At this point I'm just upset I can't bet tracks that I usually do well at.

Thanks to HANA for trying to get some answers to this situation.

proximity
11-28-2009, 04:02 PM
shouldn't it bother the co-op that at cd itself...the mecca of north american horseracing.... they never show a ct card, rarely show a pha card, and aren't even open at all on most mondays and tuesdays?

njcurveball
11-28-2009, 11:46 PM
I know the state of New Jersey can usually be blamed for most things, but don't you figure they negotiate as a groupl with all of the other mid-Atlantic states so they have a lot more leverage than they otherwise would negotiating alone? Isn't that simple common sense?
.

I don't see any common sense in being "in bed" with other tracks who have slot machines and could care less about simulcasting. Heck, most of them feel the horse players are "in the way" of the slot players.

Been to Philly Park lately? Why would they even care to have simulcasting? The less tracks the better in their eyes! New Jersey HAS to make money from simulcasting, losing tracks like Churchill and Fair Grounds can take 20% or more from their bottom line. I doubt Philly Park even noticed the loss.

No common sense in being partners with someone who does not have your best interest at heart. Let the tracks with slots make their own co-op! Call it the "we don't give a $hit about racing" group. :ThmbDown:

Canarsie
11-29-2009, 11:07 AM
I asked this question of their Facebook page and got a response. One thing I will say about the NJSEA is that they call you back or respond to emails. One guy I spoke to said "call me anytime keep my number. He took 30 minutes explaining to me the effects of net pool pricing, the old days, slots, showing sports at the track (he hates it :lol: ) and some other stuff.

Some of these guys aren't political hacks he was really passionate about his job.
Now if the Governor would only listen top my position to save racing in NJ we would be in business :ThmbUp: .

Mike_412
12-02-2009, 02:24 PM
Is it safe to assume that Tracknet hasn't gotten back to anyone yet on this issue?

Jeff P
12-02-2009, 02:28 PM
Correct. It appears upper management at CDI/Tracknet has made a conscious decision not to respond.

-jp

.

Mike_412
12-02-2009, 02:42 PM
Thanks Jeff.

Jeff P
12-03-2009, 11:05 PM
Scott Daruty of Tracknet called me today. We discussed the current signal impasse at length.

Tracknet verified that they are seeking a price increase in the range of 15% to 20% at this time.

Tracknet also verified that they are seeking introduction of language into the new signal contract that would protect them in the event another Mid Atlantic Track or their horsemen successfully lobbied a state governement to make source market fee part of state law (as has already happened in VA) while the signal contract between the Mid Atlantic Coop and Tracknet is in place.

Tracknet's position is that the current model for revenue sharing between tracks is broken, does not compensate the host track adequately, and needs to change.

Paraphrasing from the conversation, under the current revenue sharing model, if takeout is 20%, approximately 3% of every dollar wagered goes to the host track and 17% remains with the guest track.

Put another way... 15% of revenue to be distributed (revenue to be distributed=takeout) goes to the track that "puts on the show" while 85% stays with the outlet accepting the wager.

Tracknet is seeking to bump their current share up by 15% to 20% so that their new share would become 17% to 18%.

Tracknet also pointed out that even though things may be at an impasse... they are still showing races from Mid Atlantic Coop Tracks at Tracknet locations and accepting wagers on those races at Tracknet locations.

Now you know what I know.



-jp

.

rrbauer
12-04-2009, 11:22 AM
...Tracknet's position is that the current model for revenue sharing between tracks is broken, does not compensate the host track adequately, and needs to change.

Paraphrasing from the conversation, under the current revenue sharing model, if takeout is 20%, approximately 3% of every dollar wagered goes to the host track and 17% remains with the guest track.

Put another way... 15% of revenue to be distributed (revenue to be distributed=takeout) goes to the track that "puts on the show" while 85% stays with the outlet accepting the wager.

Tracknet is seeking to bump their current share up by 15% to 20% so that their new share would become 17% to 18%.



-jp

.


If I read this right, then instead of the guest track getting 85%, they would get 83% or 84% of the disposable revenue stream. Correct? So, is Tracknet saying that the increase in "their" share would go to the host track; or, part to them (Tracknet as a commission) and part to the host track? The problem that I have with all these "middlemen" operations is that all that they do is add cost to the process. I don't see any value-added from their participation and as they diminish the distribution pie then it increases the pressure for more takeout. Saying that the reason for change is, that the "model is broken" is pure gobbledygook. The whole damn game is "broken".

cj
12-04-2009, 12:19 PM
Once I see the name Daruty, what follows rings hollow.

Jeff P
12-04-2009, 01:36 PM
Hey, I'm just playing reporter... interviewing both sides and trying to convey as accurately as possible what each side told me so that players know what to expect.

Fast forwarding about a month from now... unless this thing is resolved... and it may not be...

Gulfstream, Oaklawn Park, Santa Anita... as things stand right now those signals are going to be impacted by this. Players showing up to bet horses live at Mid Atlantic Coop outlets would not have access to those signals. However, those signals would still be availabe through ADWs... Exception: The state of New Jersey... which doesn't allow NJ residents to use outside ADWs.


-jp

.

cj
12-04-2009, 01:48 PM
I wasn't knocking you Jeff, I realize you are just passing on what you know. As usual though, not a peep about the bettors while they fight over our dwindling handle.

Mike_412
12-04-2009, 03:12 PM
Appreciate the update Jeff.

njcurveball
12-04-2009, 06:05 PM
Thanks for your work and updates on this Jeff. :ThmbUp:

Canarsie
12-04-2009, 08:12 PM
Hey, I'm just playing reporter... interviewing both sides and trying to convey as accurately as possible what each side told me so that players know what to expect.

Fast forwarding about a month from now... unless this thing is resolved... and it may not be...

Gulfstream, Oaklawn Park, Santa Anita... as things stand right now those signals are going to be impacted by this. Players showing up to bet horses live at Mid Atlantic Coop outlets would not have access to those signals. However, those signals would still be availabe through ADWs... Exception: The state of New Jersey... which doesn't allow NJ residents to use outside ADWs.


-jp

.


Great info Jeff as I haven't been able to bet Churchill or Fair Grounds since the impasse started. Maybe the new Governor will change the rules can't be more anti horse player than Corzine.

Sweeney
12-05-2009, 02:11 PM
I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania, and one of the impacts of this Mid-Atlantic/Tracknet dispute is that horseplayers who live in this area only legally have one choice of account wagering companies: Philly Park's Phonebet, which of course is not taking Tracknet wagers.

Horseplayers who reside in most of SE PA cannot open a wagering account with Xpressbet, TVG, or Twin Spires - if you call those companies, or attempt to open an account online, you will be denied. So, for those of us here, we have no way at all of wagering on Churchill, Fair Grounds, and now soon Oaklawn and maybe even Santa Anita - it's ludicrous.

I'm wondering if there is anyone from HANA or in this forum who can advise on how we might be able to break Phonebet's monopoly. While Phonebet is good in some ways, they are behind the times in many ways (betting interface hasn't been updated in 10 years; credit card deposits carry exorbitant fees; etc.), so breaking their hold would be beneficial in many ways.

Thanks in advance for any advice --

castaway01
12-06-2009, 06:51 PM
I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania, and one of the impacts of this Mid-Atlantic/Tracknet dispute is that horseplayers who live in this area only legally have one choice of account wagering companies: Philly Park's Phonebet, which of course is not taking Tracknet wagers.

Horseplayers who reside in most of SE PA cannot open a wagering account with Xpressbet, TVG, or Twin Spires - if you call those companies, or attempt to open an account online, you will be denied. So, for those of us here, we have no way at all of wagering on Churchill, Fair Grounds, and now soon Oaklawn and maybe even Santa Anita - it's ludicrous.

I'm wondering if there is anyone from HANA or in this forum who can advise on how we might be able to break Phonebet's monopoly. While Phonebet is good in some ways, they are behind the times in many ways (betting interface hasn't been updated in 10 years; credit card deposits carry exorbitant fees; etc.), so breaking their hold would be beneficial in many ways.

Thanks in advance for any advice --

Sweeney, that's a good post. I live in NJ but know a lot of PA horseplayers---their situation was better than ours 10 years ago but is much the same now. I realize there's probably nothing that can change this for any of us, but we can always hope.

Jeff, thanks for your efforts and keeping us informed.

Canarsie
12-07-2009, 10:30 AM
I wonder who is going to give in as the Derby approaches? If I was mid Atlantic at that point my proposal would be "cya" not going to happen.

Of course that's not going to transpire because both sides will want a slice from the wagering public on that day.

My two cents.

rrbauer
12-07-2009, 11:00 AM
I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania, and one of the impacts of this Mid-Atlantic/Tracknet dispute is that horseplayers who live in this area only legally have one choice of account wagering companies: Philly Park's Phonebet, which of course is not taking Tracknet wagers.

Horseplayers who reside in most of SE PA cannot open a wagering account with Xpressbet, TVG, or Twin Spires - if you call those companies, or attempt to open an account online, you will be denied. So, for those of us here, we have no way at all of wagering on Churchill, Fair Grounds, and now soon Oaklawn and maybe even Santa Anita - it's ludicrous.

I'm wondering if there is anyone from HANA or in this forum who can advise on how we might be able to break Phonebet's monopoly. While Phonebet is good in some ways, they are behind the times in many ways (betting interface hasn't been updated in 10 years; credit card deposits carry exorbitant fees; etc.), so breaking their hold would be beneficial in many ways.

Thanks in advance for any advice --

Don't look to any of the ADW's that you mentioned for relief from exorbitant fees on Credit Card deposits. And, I guess that PB still doesn't take ACH deposits? I don't use PB very often anymore but even with its look outdated I never had a problem with getting bets placed and switching the display to "grid" on some exotics made it easy to see what the probables were at the time I placed the bets.

Horseplayers need to think about the level of disrespect that they are getting from the various factions that control the industry and take their business elsewhere (when racetracks and their "muscle" tell you that they don't want your business, how big a clue do you need?). Try Tampa Bay Downs, for example, which opens on December 12. Tampa is going to a more conventional Wed-Sun calendar this year (no more Tampa Tuesdays--damn!). Tampa has stayed out of the past HBPA frays and does its own ADW/simulcast deals without the "help" of Tracknet.

Mike_412
12-07-2009, 01:56 PM
Horseplayers need to think about the level of disrespect that they are getting from the various factions that control the industry and take their business elsewhere (when racetracks and their "muscle" tell you that they don't want your business, how big a clue do you need?). Try Tampa Bay Downs, for example, which opens on December 12. Tampa is going to a more conventional Wed-Sun calendar this year (no more Tampa Tuesdays--damn!). Tampa has stayed out of the past HBPA frays and does its own ADW/simulcast deals without the "help" of Tracknet.

I understand what you're saying RR and agree to an extent, but some players have probably put in so much time learning particular circuits and individual racetracks that they'd prefer not to start over by having to learn an unfamiliar track.

So what happens? The player either goes offshore, enjoys his/her rebate and uninterrupted wagering signals and probably does not return to onshore pools. Or the player says screw this, I'm tired of the bs and decides to spend his/her dollar on something other than racing. Neither option is good for the game and the industry has no one to blame but themselves. That will of course be a problem being that the motto of this industry should be "It's not us, it's them!!!"

I've stated before that I'm a 30 year old horseplayer that wagers a considerable amount of money. You'd think racing would want to keep me around. They say they do, but their actions speak otherwise. This impasse is the final straw for me personally. If it doesn't get resolved by the time Gulfstream and Santa Anita begin, I walk away. It's actually not walking away, but more like being pushed out the door. Simple as that.

grimm7
12-07-2009, 08:11 PM
I am so angry over this nonsense. I been playing horses for 37 years and am ready to walk away from playing horses because of this impasse mess. I played Gulfstream and Santa Anita in the winter for years and had good sucess. I have played Tampa in the past but have no luck there. I want to play the tracks I do well at and not be forced to play something else because of this mess. If these people who run these tracks have no sense or do not care about the players the hell with them. I hope they all go bankrupt.

njcurveball
12-14-2009, 09:42 PM
Sweeney, that's a good post. I live in NJ but know a lot of PA horseplayers---their situation was better than ours 10 years ago but is much the same now. I realize there's probably nothing that can change this for any of us, but we can always hope.

Jeff, thanks for your efforts and keeping us informed.

Why not move out of NJ?

Maybe if everyone follows his advice and moves they will do something? :lol:

InsideThePylons-MW
12-23-2009, 04:05 PM
Questions for someone/HANA to ask Daruty next time they talk to him.

1. Will Tracknet tracks agree to pay the same rate to Mid-Atlantic tracks for their signals that they want them to pay for Tracknet signals?

After he answers NO......

2. How is that fair?

3. Many of the Tracknet tracks don't take any (SA,GG,etc), or only take a few of the Mid-Atlantic signals so.......Why do you expect tracks to pay more for your signal when money is only going "one-way" which is against the basic fairness of "track to track" simulcasting agreements?

njcurveball
12-24-2009, 12:09 AM
No sense handicapping Santa Anita if you live in the Mid Atlantic. :ThmbDown:

Gulfstream and Oaklawn look like they can be ruled out as well. :bang:

Taking away major meets like this, especially the ones leading up to the Triple Crown are a great way racing does their best "Plaxico Burress" impression! :mad:

In an area where slots and other casino games are expanding and thriving, racetracks will lose more and more customers because of this.

Darwin Award nominee, two years in the running if this continues in 2010.

Dumb

"It does not appear that they are going to accept our proposal," Daruty said. "They've refused to pay any increase at all and they are sticking to their position."

Dumber

"Everything has flowed from the Mid-Atlantic to TrackNet," Lieberman said. "There has been virtually no response."

Dumbest

A similar dispute is threatening to impact the availability of TrackNet's signals on Television Games Network, the largest account-wagering company in the U.S., beginning with Santa Anita's opening

grimm7
12-24-2009, 08:20 AM
Does anyone have an E-mail or phone number for Tracknet. I looked on line and cannot find anything. I like to contact these idiots for peace of mind and let them know they are ruining the game I love.

KM1234
12-25-2009, 07:54 AM
TrackNet's phone number is 502-458-8890.

They are owned by Churchill Downs Incorporated.

Website: www.churchilldownsincorporated.com (http://www.churchilldownsincorporated.com/)

grimm7
12-25-2009, 10:01 AM
Thanks! I just e-mail them and will call on Monday.

The Hawk
12-27-2009, 10:27 AM
The more I think about this the more I think this is yet another negative effect from slots. Do Delaware and Philly Park really care if their patrons can't bet on certain signals? They've proven time and again they don't care about horseplayers, as long as the slot machines are up and running. What incentive do racinos have to expedite this process?

This is why New Jersey SHOULD NOT be involved in this coalition. They clearly do not have the same agendas, or needs, as the racinos. I would bet NJ pulls out of the coalition in the near future, perhaps when Gulfstream starts, if this thing isn't decided by then.

Pacingguy
12-27-2009, 01:42 PM
The more I think about this the more I think this is yet another negative effect from slots. Do Delaware and Philly Park really care if their patrons can't bet on certain signals? They've proven time and again they don't care about horseplayers, as long as the slot machines are up and running. What incentive do racinos have to expedite this process?

This is why New Jersey SHOULD NOT be involved in this coalition. They clearly do not have the same agendas, or needs, as the racinos. I would bet NJ pulls out of the coalition in the near future, perhaps when Gulfstream starts, if this thing isn't decided by then.


I think the racino tracks do care. Sure they make their money on VLTs but they know they have certain gamblers that will only play horses. If they are going to have to offer horse racing, they rather have a smaller loss than a larger loss on their horse racing side of the business.

njcurveball
12-27-2009, 02:41 PM
This is why New Jersey SHOULD NOT be involved in this coalition. They clearly do not have the same agendas, or needs, as the racinos. I would bet NJ pulls out of the coalition in the near future, perhaps when Gulfstream starts, if this thing isn't decided by then.

I doubt they have the ba||s to pull out, but I agree 100% they are with the wrong group. How stupid is it to have simulcasting 15 minutes from Atlantic City and not be able to show the same tracks? The casinos could care less about the race books. They allocate as little space as possible to them as they make a lot more money from slots and the other games.

Look for the incompetant Management to continue this perhaps all the way to the Kentucky Derby which we will not be able to bet! :ThmbDown:

Dumb, Dumber, and Dumbest are negotiating this deal. :bang:

njcurveball
12-27-2009, 02:42 PM
I think the racino tracks do care.

Take a ride to Phila Park, that might change your mind quickly. :)

Rise Over Run
12-27-2009, 11:18 PM
The PHA wants the track crowd to disappear, as it's bad for business. That's why everyone is crammed into a small area on the lower level, or forced to go upstairs to the 5th floor.

It's the same crappy racing, just for larger purses (for now).

Mike_412
12-28-2009, 10:33 PM
Saw this statement from the MidAtlantic Cooperative earlier.

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/midlantic-cooperative-takes-on-tracknet-statement/

DeanT
12-28-2009, 11:10 PM
30% decrease in handle at Fairgrounds last month. Great work guys!

njcurveball
12-28-2009, 11:25 PM
Saw this statement from the MidAtlantic Cooperative earlier.

http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/midlantic-cooperative-takes-on-tracknet-statement/


Good article by Paulick! :ThmbUp:

Shame guys like him are not running the show!

Sweeney
12-29-2009, 11:35 AM
A friend of mine called me from Laurel on December 26th, and told me she was able to bet both Santa Anita and Fair Grounds through the self-service terminals. I was shocked, because I thought the MD tracks were part of the Mid-Atlantic Cooperative, but maybe that has changed? I didn't see it in the news, and accept my apologies in advance if I missed it in these forums.

Thanks

BillW
12-29-2009, 12:48 PM
A friend of mine called me from Laurel on December 26th, and told me she was able to bet both Santa Anita and Fair Grounds through the self-service terminals. I was shocked, because I thought the MD tracks were part of the Mid-Atlantic Cooperative, but maybe that has changed? I didn't see it in the news, and accept my apologies in advance if I missed it in these forums.

Thanks

Magna is part of Tracknet

bks
12-29-2009, 02:28 PM
Sweeney,

Can you confirm? Were bets being taken at Laurel? If so, would that apply to other outlets in MD, including any off-track sites they may have there?

I live in SE PA as well and can't believe this bullshit. My understanding is that we have no legal options if we want to bet the blacked out tracks, as you pointed out. There certainly seems to be grounds for a class action suit here. We're being prohibited from entering into a commercial relationship to access a product NOT OFFERED by the monopoly holder.

KM1234
12-29-2009, 04:12 PM
Laurel's website indicates that they are simulcasting races from SA and GG.

My research indicates that Laurel is not only a Magna and Tracknet track, but also part of the Mid-Atlantic Cooperative.

LottaKash
12-29-2009, 04:19 PM
This is the issue that has been whirling around for years with tracks withholding their signals, etc. I mean, when they do this they're saying, "We don't want you to have our product, unless you pay through the nose, get on your knees and beg and kiss our ass in the process."

This is NOT OK in my book and I gladly do without their product. It is hardly the end of the world if there are tracks that aren't letting me buy their product. The racing at those locations just ain't that good, anyway! IMHO, of course.... :)

Well said, rrb....!!!.....ME-3......:cool:

best,

rrbauer
12-29-2009, 04:24 PM
Why is this so hard?



BOYCOTT CHURCHILL AND MAGNA TRACKS



They don't want your money. They don't care about you. Let them know that you "Get it".

KM1234
12-29-2009, 04:27 PM
My statement about Laurel being a member of Mid-Atlantic may have been erroneous. I looked at recent articles about this impasse and noticed that Laurel is not listed among the Coop tracks. That's why they have wagering on SA and GG. Sorry for the mistake.

I also noticed that Laurel resumes racing on January 1, 2010, and didn't see the track listed on 4njbets.com's simulcasting calendar.

BillW
12-29-2009, 04:42 PM
My statement about Laurel being a member of Mid-Atlantic may have been erroneous. I looked at recent articles about this impasse and noticed that Laurel is not listed among the Coop tracks. That's why they have wagering on SA and GG. Sorry for the mistake.

I also noticed that Laurel resumes racing on January 1, 2010, and didn't see the track listed on 4njbets.com's simulcasting calendar.

As I stated before, Laurel is owned by Magna. Magna is a partner in Tracknet, therefore laurel is a part of Tracknet.

Track Collector
12-29-2009, 05:45 PM
I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania, and one of the impacts of this Mid-Atlantic/Tracknet dispute is that horseplayers who live in this area only legally have one choice of account wagering companies: Philly Park's Phonebet, which of course is not taking Tracknet wagers.

Horseplayers who reside in most of SE PA cannot open a wagering account with Xpressbet, TVG, or Twin Spires - if you call those companies, or attempt to open an account online, you will be denied. So, for those of us here, we have no way at all of wagering on Churchill, Fair Grounds, and now soon Oaklawn and maybe even Santa Anita - it's ludicrous.



Hello Sweeney,

I just called Player Services at YouBet, and according to the person I spoke with, YouBet allows folks who live in PA to open an account with them. There are restrictions, but it involves wagering on most of the PA-located tracks. You would be allowed to wager on Tracknet tracks such as FG, CD, etc.

(Yes, I know YouBet will soon be a part of Twin Spires, so future policies could change.)

Best of luck.

Sweeney
12-29-2009, 11:05 PM
Hello Sweeney,

I just called Player Services at YouBet, and according to the person I spoke with, YouBet allows folks who live in PA to open an account with them. There are restrictions, but it involves wagering on most of the PA-located tracks. You would be allowed to wager on Tracknet tracks such as FG, CD, etc.

(Yes, I know YouBet will soon be a part of Twin Spires, so future policies could change.)

Best of luck.

Thanks to Track Collector and everyone for the information and replies. I have already called both TVG and Twin Spires, and been denied opening an account. I'll give YouBet a call tomorrow and see what they say -- and while I enjoy Tampa and Philly Park and Turfway, a winter without Gulfstream and Santa Anita is like a year without Santa Claus, you know? :bang:

bks
12-30-2009, 06:55 PM
Sweeney,

Please let us know what happens with youbet.com

thx.

bucksboy
01-01-2010, 11:33 AM
I had no idea that racing was doing so well at Gulfstream, Santa Anita,
Calder, and Churchill, that they do not need bettors from the mid-atlantic
area. Would someone please explain to me how this makes sense ??
I thought I read that handle was down 30% at Fairgrounds. How can they
survive by cutting the signal. Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode
" the bizzarro world ". Isn't Gulfstream bankrupt ??? In this economy it would stand to reason that if there was life on Mars, they would try to get their signal there. What am I missing ??????

Track Collector
01-02-2010, 01:38 AM
I had no idea that racing was doing so well at Gulfstream, Santa Anita,
Calder, and Churchill, that they do not need bettors from the mid-atlantic
area. Would someone please explain to me how this makes sense ??
I thought I read that handle was down 30% at Fairgrounds. How can they
survive by cutting the signal.

It makes sense only to Tracknet, who (mistakenly) believe that handles will be restored once the signals become available to the mid-Atlantic tracks. Tracknet is banking on player's short memories and their general unwillingness to venture out of their comfort zone (and play new tracks). Tracknet does not seem to understand that rather helping them to achieve the objectives of increased handle and revenue, their behavior (greed and lack of appreciation for the customer) is actually serving as a catalyst to do the opposite, which is to enable players to try and enjoy other tracks not represented by Tracknet. Perhaps Tracknet does not understand that In business, it is easier to retain existing customers rather than attract brand new customers or win back those who left disgruntled.

bucksboy
01-02-2010, 11:03 AM
Just picked up DRF for Sunday. Fella from Gulfstream says his goal is to make
Gulfstream the # 1 simulcast feed in the country.....LOL
It looks like a great card for Sunday at GP.....for those who can bet it !!
What a shame.

BombsAway Bob
01-03-2010, 11:22 PM
there COULD be a second driving force about the impasse.
If You're a TVG Customer that is based in Massachusetts,for example, that is involved in the signal distribution of TRACKNET signals, Your ONLY OPTION if you want to bet their tracks is to play online thru TwinSpires!
Suffolk is a double loser in this dispute, in that they can't get $$ with Gulf/SA/FG races
simulcast ontrack, OR thru Suffolks "host track" status with TVG in Mass.,
where they get a % of TVG action!
Any & All wagering on Gulf/SA/FG races in Massachusetts as of now
has to go thru TwinSpires ADW, maximizing their profit margin, & hurting Suffolk & TVG.

rrbauer
01-04-2010, 04:47 AM
there COULD be a second driving force about the impasse.
If You're a TVG Customer that is based in Massachusetts,for example, that is involved in the signal distribution of TRACKNET signals, Your ONLY OPTION if you want to bet their tracks is to play online thru TwinSpires!
Suffolk is a double loser in this dispute, in that they can't get $$ with Gulf/SA/FG races
simulcast ontrack, OR thru Suffolks "host track" status with TVG in Mass.,
where they get a % of TVG action!
Any & All wagering on Gulf/SA/FG races in Massachusetts as of now
has to go thru TwinSpires ADW, maximizing their profit margin, & hurting Suffolk & TVG.

All part of CDI's strategy of complete vertical integration and monopolizing every bracket. Remember when Evans was crying about not having a "level playing field" after Indiana got slots?

castaway01
01-05-2010, 09:11 PM
Just picked up DRF for Sunday. Fella from Gulfstream says his goal is to make
Gulfstream the # 1 simulcast feed in the country.....LOL
It looks like a great card for Sunday at GP.....for those who can bet it !!
What a shame.

Opening day handle was down 37%, which isn't going to help their efforts to be #1. What a pity.

bucksboy
01-06-2010, 08:45 AM
I thought it would be down 10-12%. Could not happen to a better bunch.
37% is quite a number. Let's see how long it takes for them to come to their
senses. Hope they have the funds to repair the tractor.

Horseplayersbet.com
01-06-2010, 09:19 AM
I thought it would be down 10-12%. Could not happen to a better bunch.
37% is quite a number. Let's see how long it takes for them to come to their
senses. Hope they have the funds to repair the tractor.
Opening day was a Sunday not a Saturday this year, so it isn't like comparing apples with apples.

But they sure are teaching players that other tracks exist and some of them might be easier to handicap than the big name ones.

bucksboy
01-06-2010, 10:18 AM
HPB,
I moved to Tampa (never played it seriously before) and I am holding my own.
Being that I am a newbie to the track, I like the .50 Pic 4 while I'm getting used to it. Nice turf racing also. Churchill/Magna really teeing me off.

Sweeney
01-08-2010, 04:10 PM
Sweeney,

Please let us know what happens with youbet.com

thx.

bks -

Sorry for the slow reply -- I called YouBet, and they will open an account for PA residents, that allows wagering on Gulfstream, Santa Anita, etc. The only condition (as someone else correctly mentioned) is that I would not be able to wager on PA tracks (which is no big deal).

Space Monkey
01-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Betting GP and Tampa races almost exclusively this winter (grass) thru Twin Spires, I didn't pay much attention to the mid-atlantic dispute. I didn't realize the scope of the problems and that my favorite ADW seems to be a big part of it. :confused:

njcurveball
01-10-2010, 12:09 AM
Another weekend without the top name tracks makes this seem like it is going to be a lost cause.

In case anyone cares, Troipicana just closed their racebook, even though they COULD simulcast the big tracks like Gulfstream and Santa Anita. And that is in a market where no one else could do it. Wouldn't that make for a great marketing tool? :bang:

I contacted Steve Byk and he feels it is the Mid Atlantic group that really is being stupid in this pi$$ing contest. He feels they are only being asked for a minimal increase and should have paid it long ago.

Makes me wonder what has to happen to get a deal done now? Almost three prime months have been lost and the beginning of the Gulfstream meet is usually a great time to attract new bettors.

All this dispute is doing is making new customers for tracks and ADWs who are not involved in it. And of course it is helping racing continue to die a slow death.

This actually was one area where I had some hope a group like HANA could be a factor.

miesque
01-10-2010, 12:15 AM
I contacted Steve Byk and he feels it is the Mid Atlantic group that really is being stupid in this pi$$ing contest. He feels they are only being asked for a minimal increase and should have paid it long ago.



Really? That is Byk's position on this matter?

njcurveball
01-10-2010, 12:19 AM
Really? That is Byk's position on this matter?


Give him a call or write and see if you get the same story that I did.

miesque
01-10-2010, 12:33 AM
Give him a call or write and see if you get the same story that I did.

Actually now that this is in the public lexicon courtesy of your post I would hope there would be an appropriate response post from him forthcoming at some point.

njcurveball
01-10-2010, 12:42 AM
Actually now that this is in the public lexicon courtesy of your post I would hope there would be an appropriate response post from him forthcoming at some point.

Last I checked he has a call in show and you certainly are welcome to call him to get a story especially for you. I am missing your point, so if you actually have something to offer to this thread, please post it. It is not productive to simply keep responding to my posts with what seems like a chip on your shoulder. I am putting you on my ignore list now, so good luck.

miesque
01-10-2010, 12:47 AM
I got put on ignore after responding twice to someone. :jump:

Jeff P
01-10-2010, 01:38 AM
This actually was one area where I had some hope a group like HANA could be a factor.Having spoken with and heard both sides of this... here's my take.

Tracknet is a separate legal entity hired to act as agent... think sports agent Scott Boras or Tom Cruise's character in the movie Jerry MaGuire...

Tracknet's job is to show the tracks that hired them that Tracknet has the ability to drive prices up every time a signal contract comes up for renewal. That's how they justify their own existence: They negotiate and drive prices up for the benefit of the tracks that hired them.

The Mid Atlantic Coop is being asked to pay a price increase for a product where customer demand (because of high takeout, pool integrity, drug integrity, and competition with other forms of gambling not blessed with racing's self inflicted problems) is lower now than at any point in the past 10 years.

From the Mid Atlantic Coop's point of view, if they pay an increase now, they can expect to be asked to pay another the next time the signal contract comes up for renewal... and another after that... with no end in sight.

Throw in the belief that both sides think it's the other side's fault... and that both sides appear to be so entrenched at this point that it becomes really difficult to offer up concessions to the other side without losing face...

And I can see why it drags on and on with no end in sight...



The sad part about this whole thing is that both sides have completely lost sight of the big picture.

Both sides are hurting the game of racing because they have forgotten about the importance of the customer.


As an officer of HANA I can talk to either side... listen to what they have to say... and report back to HANA members. But I don't have the ability to end this because neither side is really willing to listen to what I have to say.

Unfortunately, until either side really wants to resolve this... it will continue.

That's what I see right now.




-jp

.

cj
01-10-2010, 01:28 PM
You summed it up pretty nicely, but it is tough to give any leeway to Tracknet. How can they possibly expect to raise prices in the current environment?

njcurveball
01-10-2010, 01:54 PM
How can they possibly expect to raise prices in the current environment?

Have you seen the gas pumps lately? :eek:

I have found that Management can only look at graphs and pie charts. They spend all night trying to figure out how much they will make by switching to one ply toilet paper. They have no clue that people find alternate products and stop using theirs completely, never to come back. :mad:

The problem is that the Mid Atlantic group has tracks with slots and those without. Just like the AC Casinos, the ones with slots could care less about simulcasting. The ones without slots need it for their profit.

The whole point of these tracks coming together was to allow them to have an influence over situations like this. Obviously that is not working and it would be best for all to negotiate individually.

The most insane thing of all this is that tracks like the Meadowlands still send their signal out to the same people who refuse to negotiate with them.

I have a hard time thinking any side is going to win with this one, as close to three months of handle has been lost and bettors are now finding other tracks and other ADWs.

Darwin award winner two years in a row for my money. :ThmbDown:

Thanks for write up Jeff, I think you have a clear picture of this situation. :ThmbUp:

FenceBored
01-10-2010, 03:18 PM
Really? That is Byk's position on this matter?

On Thursday, at the end of the third hour of his show (http://thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/010710c.mp3) Steve talked to a caller (Paul from Queens) who asked about the Meadowlands not having GP and SA. The meat of his response starts at 47:15.

In a nutshell, he reduces the disagreement to being 100% about the host fee increase. He doesn't see the increase sought by Tracknet as being exhorbitant, and he generally feels it is in the best interests of the industry for the host tracks to receive a higher percentage of the simulcast takeout. In that context, he views the continuation of this fight to be the Mid Atlantic Co-op's fault and urged his listeners in that region to tell them to "make a deal."

Now, if someone doesn't think that the issue is 100% the host fee, then ...

chickenhead
01-10-2010, 03:38 PM
He doesn't see the increase sought by Tracknet as being exhorbitant, and he generally feels it is in the best interests of the industry for the host tracks to receive a higher percentage of the simulcast takeout. In that context, he views the continuation of this fight to be the Mid Atlantic Co-op's fault and urged his listeners in that region to tell them to "make a deal."

Are the Tracknet tracks offering to pay equal fees on the MA simulcast signals that they receive?

InsideThePylons-MW
01-10-2010, 04:12 PM
Are the Tracknet tracks offering to pay equal fees on the MA simulcast signals that they receive?

Of course not

FenceBored
01-10-2010, 04:55 PM
Are the Tracknet tracks offering to pay equal fees on the MA simulcast signals that they receive?

Good point. If Tracknet's not willing to pay the same percentage they're demanding that's certainly a problem. Then again, even if Tracknet did offer the same percentage on Mid-Atlantic signals those tracks might still lose money on the deal (and thus not want to do it) assuming their outgoing handle on the Tracknet signals is higher than the incoming handle from Tracknet's owners/clients.

The Hawk
01-10-2010, 09:56 PM
Have you seen the gas pumps lately? :eek:


The difference is people NEED gas. We don't need to bet on specific tracks. We'll do without, either betting other tracks, or abstaining altogether, and it's getting easier and easier to do the latter, quite frankly.

In a nutshell, he reduces the disagreement to being 100% about the host fee increase. He doesn't see the increase sought by Tracknet as being exhorbitant, and he generally feels it is in the best interests of the industry for the host tracks to receive a higher percentage of the simulcast takeout. In that context, he views the continuation of this fight to be the Mid Atlantic Co-op's fault and urged his listeners in that region to tell them to "make a deal."
...

Forgive me for saying this, but doesn't Byk have advertising on his show from Churchill, Magna, and/or both? Do you think that has any effect on his position?

Once again, the NJSEA HAS TO pull out of this consortium and negotiate their own deal. They do not have the same agendas as states with slots, like PA and Delaware. The last thing the NJ horse racing industry can afford is their fans going to NY to bet, and opening accounts with out-of-state ADW's, but that's exactly what's happening. How many will never come back?

InsideThePylons-MW
01-10-2010, 11:40 PM
Forgive me for saying this, but doesn't Byk have advertising on his show from Churchill, Magna, and/or both? Do you think that has any effect on his position?

Byk all but gave Daruty a kiss in this interview on his show.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42911

njcurveball
01-11-2010, 10:46 PM
The difference is people NEED gas. We don't need to bet on specific tracks. We'll do without, either betting other tracks, or abstaining altogether

I think you missed this one. Many people can find alternate means of transportation or even better do not go anywhere when gas prices go through the roof.

Why do you think Chevy ditched almost all of their cars? Midatlantic properties who depend on simulcast wagering will be cutting back or laying off people, so basically you can say they NEED people to bet on horses.

There also many professionals in the Midatlantic area who derive much of their income from tracks like Gulfstream, Fair Grounds, and Santa Anita.

But I do get your points and agree with them. The tracks without slots should definitely pull out of the co-operative and make thier own deals. Just like gas, even if it costs more, it is needed to make a living.

Canarsie
01-12-2010, 08:08 AM
I think you missed this one. Many people can find alternate means of transportation or even better do not go anywhere when gas prices go through the roof.

Why do you think Chevy ditched almost all of their cars? Midatlantic properties who depend on simulcast wagering will be cutting back or laying off people, so basically you can say they NEED people to bet on horses.

There also many professionals in the Midatlantic area who derive much of their income from tracks like Gulfstream, Fair Grounds, and Santa Anita.

But I do get your points and agree with them. The tracks without slots should definitely pull out of the co-operative and make thier own deals. Just like gas, even if it costs more, it is needed to make a living.

It's possible that just as the CDI/Tracknet agreement expired the Meadowlands is locked into one with Mid Atlantic. Just a hunch.

rrbauer
01-14-2010, 05:44 PM
http://www.drf.com/news/article/110065.html

Figman
01-14-2010, 05:56 PM
Isn't Martin Lieberman a former New York Racing Association or NYRA executive?
Was he fired or did he resign to take this job?

Track Collector
01-14-2010, 11:57 PM
Down goes the revenue at TrackNet tracks with each and every wager which could not be made with them. Gone forever, just like the missed revenue from an empty airplane seat.

Scott Daruty simply must win this one if he wants to keep his job. Once tracknet is challenged and loses, they will not find it easy to bully others in the future. Unfortunately for Scott, TrackNet needs the mid-Atlantic state track alliance more than they need him. He may need to update his resume. :D

EZbreeze
01-15-2010, 01:26 AM
Daruty has given due diligence to reaching an agreement with the East Coast tracks that are attempting to leverage their numbers. Mr. Lieberman is the one that needs to put his resume back out there. TrackNet will negotiate, the MidAtlantic Coop only has a point to make.
Colonial worked and successfully got a new law passed in VA that requires a 12% take out. TrackNet only needs 9%. Who's side are you on!?

EZbreeze
01-15-2010, 01:31 AM
The revenue is only going down at those tracks because of the chosen action of the MidAtlantic Coop. TrackNet isn't resposible for that scenario.

I'm still able to wager on those tracks here in Virginia. I just do it online now with Xpressbet as opposed to going out the Colonial Downs OTB. Who's losing the most from that?

njcurveball
01-15-2010, 01:35 AM
If they are arguing over a small percentage they both will have lost an entire year of profit equal to that if this continues much longer.

With Oaklawn starting up, it is going to freeze out any interest in the Triple Crown races from players who get interested at that time.

A simple equation of

Total fans - existing customers - any new customers = loss of interest

should be recited to both parties.

If by a miracle Zenyatta were to race against Rachel at Oaklawn or Gulfstream now the Mid-Atlantic group would not even see it, let alone be able to bet on it.

Mix in the fact we also cannot see NY races in NJ and it is a sad sad situation. :mad:

njcurveball
01-15-2010, 01:38 AM
The revenue is only going down at those tracks because of the chosen action of the MidAtlantic Coop. TrackNet isn't resposible for that scenario.



I guess you mean that the Mid-Atlantic group ASKED to pay more and then decided not to? Tracknet is 100% responsible for this as they are trying to force an increase from a group that was facing declining profits in the current economy.

Mid-Atlantic is a majority of slot tracks who can weather this storm rather easily. Their Management could care less about racing. The few tracks involved without slots are just pawns in this lose/lose situation.

njcurveball
01-15-2010, 01:42 AM
Daruty has given due diligence to reaching an agreement with the East Coast tracks that are attempting to leverage their numbers. Mr. Lieberman is the one that needs to put his resume back out there.

Actually they both are very poor businessmen and negotiators. Imagine going home and telling your wife you aren't working the next 3 months because the boss wouldn't give you a 1% raise and at the same time the company was losing 15% because you weren't there.

Pretty much the stupidity going on here. And it isn't just two parties, as the horsemen, owners, tracks, and even the racing game itself are losing BIG TIME with the Triple Crown races ahead.

Imagine if it were a few years ago and Phila Park could not watch or bet on Smarty Jones on his successful run from Oaklawn through Churchill. :mad:

andymays
01-15-2010, 01:10 PM
TrackNet/Cooperative Dispute Taking a Toll

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/54830/tracknetcooperative-dispute-taking-a-toll

Excerpt:

A dispute over signal rates between TrackNet Media Group and 17 racetracks in the Mid-Atlantic region is a primary reason Gulfstream Park’s interstate wagering handle was down about 15% through the first seven days of its 2010 meet, Gulfstream president and general manager Ken Dunn said Jan. 14.

The contract dispute is preventing members of the Mid-Atlantic Cooperative from receiving simulcast signals from Gulfstream, Santa Anita Park, Golden Gate Fields, and Fair Grounds Race Course & Slots. Martin Lieberman, executive vice president of the cooperative, said that as of Jan. 14, it didn’t have an agreement with TrackNet Media for transmissions of signals, including that of Oaklawn Park, which will begin its meet Jan. 15.

In recent years, the Mid-Atlantic Cooperative has provided between 12% and 13% of Gulfstream’s interstate wagering handle, Dunn said.

Track Collector
01-15-2010, 01:23 PM
Daruty has given due diligence to reaching an agreement with the East Coast tracks that are attempting to leverage their numbers. Mr. Lieberman is the one that needs to put his resume back out there. TrackNet will negotiate, the MidAtlantic Coop only has a point to make.
Colonial worked and successfully got a new law passed in VA that requires a 12% take out. TrackNet only needs 9%. Who's side are you on!?

I am on the player's side, particularly those who effective takeouts go up when signal fees go up. Higher signal fees mean less margins for ADWs and less available monies to provide players with rebates/rewards. Higher effective takeouts mean players leave the game quicker or reduce their participation levels sooner. By the way, I do agree that ALL players are important, regardless of their handle.

Today I received a notice from one of the ADWs that I use that due to a dispute, they will not be carrying the Oaklawn Park signal, and I can be assured that it is due to the signal cost. You can see that this pricing philosophy goes beyond just a particular group of tracks. Given a choice, I would prefer to play Oaklawn, but their unavailability will not cause great discomfort.

Only the parties in the dispute know what is really going on. I do get the impression from your posts that you believe the Mid-Atlantic track group is more at fault for this deadlock than TrackNet. When one side appears willing to compromise, as someone else postulated on an earlier post with regard to Mid-Atlantic, and the other side appears to take the stance that their position is the only way, that tends to influence me as to who I think is more at fault. Again, most of us do not have first-hand and accurate info regarding the positions of both sides. Both will issue communications which show them in a positive light in an attempt to win the battle of public favor. Somewhere in between lies the truth.

I see these are your initial posts to the forum. Welcome aboard!!

DeanT
01-15-2010, 01:49 PM
Track Collector :ThmbUp:

Fixing the signal split by transferring higher prices on the backs of customers does not help racing handles, it does the exact opposite. If this goes through, in 12 months these same people will be wondering where the handle went, just like at Calder and everywhere else it has been destroyed, due to the exact same 20th century policies. The sad part is, in the next contract when they look to take more of the shrinking pie to meet the revenue shortfall, they will try to do exactly the same thing again.

It's like a robber going into a convenience store each week and robbing it, but one week going in and finding there is no money left in the register to rob, because they already took it all.

rrbauer
01-15-2010, 07:38 PM
You can piss and moan until you're exhausted over this issue and NOTHING will get resolved based on anything that you do unless YOU STOP BETTING ON TRACKNET TRACKS REGARDLESS OF THEIR AVAILABILITY TO WHATEVER OUTLET YOU USE FOR PLAYING. We need to take, at a minimum, a year off from playing the TrackNet tracks. I have not bet a TrackNet track since the BC and I absolutely will not bet FG, SA, GP, OP, CD (including the Derby) and any other incidental tracks (Maryland) that decide that they need TrackNet to represent them.

Withhold your money. There are plenty of options for playing at venues that are not TrackNet related.

DeanT
01-15-2010, 11:19 PM
There are plenty of options for playing at venues that are not TrackNet related.
But even then the list is getting thin. Cali racing is dead to me. NYRA raised take last year (oops, I mean the state made NYRA raise rakes, or something like that), PA tracks have highers rates than the inflation percentage of Venuzuela... and so on.

I mean..... what to play..... Tampa is ok, MNR puts the signal everywhere and has some decent field size.

It seems crap takeouts, bad distribution, decisons like Cali today.......... all are the norm, not the exception. There are fewer and fewer good tracks to play, moreso than ever perhaps.

Then again, if we met the rate of inflation the past ten years handle would be close to $20B. Instead it is $12.3B. I think I answered my own question.

BillW
01-15-2010, 11:21 PM
We need to form an "Ex-horseplayers poker tour" :cool:

DeanT
01-15-2010, 11:28 PM
Oh man...... well I put some cash in an adw today to play op. But I figure Rich is right about OP, so I have to find something to play. I say "I will churn what I put in on the Sam Houston 12% pick 3"...... then you guessed it, my ADW jacks up the takeout on that bet to 25%!!!!

The industry which is a horse betting business, does everything possible to make us bet poker!

Jackal
01-17-2010, 08:57 PM
I live in NC. CNL is my only betting outlet, other than offshore books. The Alberta, VA OTB had a whopping crowd of less than 20 people. I would take bets on the more popular tracks just to sell beer and food.

njcurveball
01-18-2010, 03:05 AM
The Alberta, VA OTB had a whopping crowd of less than 20 people.

ACRC Simulcast is a ghost town as well. These groups do not even have the sense to realize that they are basically turning away any new customers that come during the Winter months for these premier tracks.

Many "veterans" love turf racing and the only reason to come out in the winter was Fair Grounds, Gulfstream, and Santa Anita. Tampa is getting better, but unless the flagship tracks are there, the bettor will not putting any money through the windows.

Let's look at the campaign of Rachel as we know Zenyatta was at Santa Anita the whole year and the Mid-Atlantic would have never seen her.

Rachel started at Oaklawn in February, then Fair Grounds in March, Oaklawn in April and then Churchill in May. So the Mid-Atlantic would have never even see her till the Preakness.

Any fans along the way and there were many, are lost to these two greedy groups. :ThmbDown:

DeanT
01-26-2010, 06:59 PM
http://www.drf.com/news/article/110369.html

Fair Grounds to reduce purses

By Marcus HershFaced with sharply declining handle, Fair Grounds Race Course in New Orleans on Thursday announced cuts to both its overnight purse structure and stakes program.......total average daily handle at Fair Grounds fell 31.6 percent from November and December 2008 to the corresponding period in 2009.

Apparently it was all the weather and the economy. Nothing to do with the infighting and signal hikes.

"The economic downturn across the country as well as the all-time record rainfall in December in New Orleans has negatively affected our business, and we were left with no choice but to take this action," Halstrom said in the release.

Track Collector
01-26-2010, 10:41 PM
http://www.drf.com/news/article/110369.html

Fair Grounds to reduce purses

By Marcus HershFaced with sharply declining handle, Fair Grounds Race Course in New Orleans on Thursday announced cuts to both its overnight purse structure and stakes program.......total average daily handle at Fair Grounds fell 31.6 percent from November and December 2008 to the corresponding period in 2009.

Apparently it was all the weather and the economy. Nothing to do with the infighting and signal hikes.

"The economic downturn across the country as well as the all-time record rainfall in December in New Orleans has negatively affected our business, and we were left with no choice but to take this action," Halstrom said in the release.

Classic denial. :liar: I wonder how other non TrackNet tracks did with the down economy comparing November and December 2008 to the same period this year? I guess TrackNet will have to "demand" another couple of percent to make up for the lost revenue. :rolleyes: Places like Beu, Pen, CT, and Pha never have anything but perfect weather. :rolleyes:

DeanT
02-15-2010, 09:20 PM
http://www.nola.com/horseracing/index.ssf/2010/02/fair_grounds_betting_this_seas.html