Mistreating customers no way to grow business

[rwwupl]

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/mistreating-customers-no-way-to-grow-business-70605222.html

Excerpt:

Mistreating customers no way to grow business
RICHARD ENG
MORE COLUMNSTwo recent stories made me wonder if the people running horse racing understand the concept that mistreating your customers is a bad business practice.

The first item was for a new wager called 123 Racing. The tracks involved in the startup are Canterbury, Hawthorne, Mountaineer, Philadelphia Park and Presque Isle. The wager has a carry-over proviso, so the hope is horseplayers will bet big when the pot grows. My problem with it, the takeout is an outrageous 35 percent.

The second item occurred in California when Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed into law a bill allowing state racing associations the option to raise their takeout on wagers up to 5 percent across the board. Thank goodness it's voluntary.

However, with shrinking revenues, the temptation to raise the takeout somewhere between 1 and 5 percent in the future might become a reality.

We horseplayers still are waiting for a think tank to hatch ideas to grow horse racing. Part of that is creating new fans to attract new bettors. Another is marketing to an audience that wagers already but maybe hasn't tried horse racing yet. A third is renovating the wagering product so it is an attractive investment. For example, if straight pools were reduced to 10 percent takeout, the tax would be similar to the vig on sports betting.

[Moyers Pond]

Nothing infuriates me more than NYRA increasing their takeout from 16% for the pick 6 on non-carryover days to 26% on carryover days. It is an absolute joke. The bet does not change but they just feel it is ok to raise the takeout 10% because nobody hit it the day before. ROBBERY.

CA is just full of idiots. They idiots in the legislature (perhaps the only bigger crooks in America than the NY legislature) just thought it was simple math and that if they just raise the takeout 5% that would automatically translate into $200 million extra in revenue. The idiots who do not understand gambling forgot to take into account that raising the takeout would hurt the handle. It is like they have no idea what is going on. It is like idiots in Congress than just say we should raise taxes on business and that will generate revenue and then they realize the businesses raise their prices and then do less business.

Horse racing will be nothing but short little meets in 20 years from now.

[illinoisbred]

The lemon has been squeezed dry. They're now going for the pulp.

[levinmpa]

I think nearly everyone on this board is in agreement about the takeout issues with the game. We are all aware that raising the takeout takes more and more dollars out of the players pockets and reduces the churn, thereby reducing handle. Lowering the takeout does just the opposite. There is more money given back to the player to churn back into the pools, increasing handle. Everyone seems to know this. Why on earth don't the tracks get together and lobby their state legislatures for a reduction in takeout. By doing so successfully, and getting the takeout reduced, they will attract other gamblers back to the game. I have said this many times on this board. The racetracks do nothing to compete for the gambling dollar. There are so many other legal forms of gambling out there. If racing wants its fair share of those gambling dollars, they must compete. 20+% takeouts on wagers is not competing. Poker players and sports bettors would be much more likely to get involved with big bankrolls if they felt they had a fair shot against a lower takeout. Unfortunately, the math skills of the decision makers and legislators remains questionable.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Why on earth don't the tracks get together and lobby their
state legislatures for a reduction in takeout. By doing so successfully,
and getting the takeout reduced, they will attract other gamblers back to the game.




One of the main reason I believe is that everyone's share of the handle
is tied in to the current rates.

To reduce the takeout rates locally(at the host track level),
would mean re-negotiating the contracts with a multitude of interests.
That would mean endless headaches and futility for ADW companies,
simulcast venues, slots parlors, state politicians who would surely
throw up roadblocks and impede what needs to be done.

And with a revolving door of track executives there is little long-term
commitment to their current gaming positions Also there is
no cohesiveness among the racetrack owners, nor the states.
It's everyone fending for themselves.
But that has to change before anything happens.

[twindouble]

Look guys, things are going to get a hell of a lot worse than they are now. The gambling dollar is shrinking at a very fast rate. Just ignore the rich putting on a show for the rich, the Breeders Cup then take it from there. Every state is going for the "the pulp of the lemon", your Federal government is grinding up the rind of future generations. Inflation and higher interest rates will soon be upon all of us on top of the already shrinking value of the dollar over the last ten years. Unemployment will continue to rise and just the dummies of the country will spend. The real dummies are this tax and spend administration and Congress. I would recommend any player that's not making money on the horses or is border line to put the money to better use if you still have a job. That's the REALITY! Anyone who thinks otherwise on this forum isn't a handicapper and shouldn't be playing the horses anyway.

Now weigh the above and tell me what the racing industry should do to survive, then I'll pay attention.

T.D.

[levinmpa]

One of the main reason I believe is that everyone's share of the handle
is tied in to the current rates.

To reduce the takeout rates locally(at the host track level),
would mean re-negotiating the contracts with a multitude of interests.
That would mean endless headaches and futility for ADW companies,
simulcast venues, slots parlors, state politicians who would surely
throw up roadblocks and impede what needs to be done.

And with a revolving door of track executives there is little long-term
commitment to their current gaming positions Also there is
no cohesiveness among the racetrack owners, nor the states.
It's everyone fending for themselves.
But that has to change before anything happens.

That's a given. Of course contracts would have to be renegotiated. But with all parties involved, they will be getting.

A. Status Quo: A larger slice of a shrinking handle.

or

B. Lowering the takeout: A smaller slice of a growing handle.

Which option is better for the long term health of the game by all parties that have a financial interest?

[hazzardm]

Mistreating customers no way to grow business

Unless your in the adult toy business :lol:

[Stillriledup]

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/mistreating-customers-no-way-to-grow-business-70605222.html

Excerpt:

Wasnt' there a horseplayers panel a few years ago with economists, horseplayers and other smart people who came up with a lot of great ideas only to have no one listen anyway?

[twindouble]

One of the main reason I believe is that everyone's share of the handle
is tied in to the current rates.

To reduce the takeout rates locally(at the host track level),
would mean re-negotiating the contracts with a multitude of interests.
That would mean endless headaches and futility for ADW companies,
simulcast venues, slots parlors, state politicians who would surely
throw up roadblocks and impede what needs to be done.

And with a revolving door of track executives there is little long-term
commitment to their current gaming positions Also there is
no cohesiveness among the racetrack owners, nor the states.
It's everyone fending for themselves.
But that has to change before anything happens.

I agree, as of now players are in no position effect changes like that. Organizing them is not easy task. HANA needs people that have a better understanding the wide variety players that support the game including the limits they are willing to participate. A good fisherman carries more than one kind of lure or fly in his tackle box. In other words giving the impression that just one group of players fits their agenda on important issues like rebates (takeout) is a mistake. Just giving lip service to the majority on that issue won't work .

I'm convinced that this isn't the time to go all out for changes even if HANA had the support of the majority of players.

[Zman179]

Nothing infuriates me more than NYRA increasing their takeout from 16% for the pick 6 on non-carryover days to 26% on carryover days. It is an absolute joke. The bet does not change but they just feel it is ok to raise the takeout 10% because nobody hit it the day before. ROBBERY.



It used to be 25% for years, even on non-carryover days and changed the format a couple years ago. So by betting on a non-carryover day, you are actually taking advantage of a 9% takeout reduction.

[Jackal]

If you think the NYRA mistreats customers, you should visit CNL. They don't sell racing forms. No sound in the OTB, just 24 TVs. If you want a beer the waitress and barmaid are no where to be found. The racetrack or OTB should be a mecca of racing information. Instead at CNL you are in an information black hole.

I could go on but I don't want to ruin my morning. The whole thing just makes me sick.

[rrpic6]

If you think the NYRA mistreats customers, you should visit CNL. They don't sell racing forms. No sound in the OTB, just 24 TVs. If you want a beer the waitress and barmaid are no where to be found. The racetrack or OTB should be a mecca of racing information. Instead at CNL you are in an information black hole.

I could go on but I don't want to ruin my morning. The whole thing just makes me sick.

I believe Colonial Management (Jacobs) are the majority owners of Mountaineer now. They got rid of all the OTB Managers, took away the 2nd floor simulcast area, including new flatscreen tv's (about 25 slot machines in that space), reduced the number of windows to bet, want to close the track for 4 months, laid off most cashiers in the casinos, veteran waitresses must have all quit, as there are only a few new faces. Send this link to those clowns, see if they respond.

RR

[The Hawk]

It used to be 25% for years, even on non-carryover days and changed the format a couple years ago. So by betting on a non-carryover day, you are actually taking advantage of a 9% takeout reduction.

Wow, thanks NYRA! For years you would rob us blind, but now it's only on select days, which are coincidentally the days when people are betting the most money. Maybe NYRA can up the takeout on Belmont Stakes Day to 40%, and we can take advantage of the discount the rest of the year.

You can actually take advantage of a 0% takeout and refuse to play there.

[rwwupl]

Wow, thanks NYRA! For years you would rob us blind, but now it's only on select days, which are coincidentally the days when people are betting the most money. Maybe NYRA can up the takeout on Belmont Stakes Day to 40%, and we can take advantage of the discount the rest of the year.

You can actually take advantage of a 0% takeout and refuse to play there.


Good one. :ThmbUp:

[Zman179]

The takeouts at NYRA tracks for WPS/DD/Ex/Quin rank amongst the lowest 10% in the game. I don't see any reason to stop playing there.

Even though I'm not crazy about how NYRA does business, I do appreciate that they have tried many times over the years to lower takeout. They'd be lower than they are now if it weren't for the NYOTB's fighting takeout reductions tooth and nail.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Are we overlooking the idea that the Ca board, which consensus says has no clue, is giving over a power (setting takeout -tax- rates) to the local businesses and away from the state? IMHO this could be a significant intital step in letting tracks run more of their own business!
IMO when the board thought about making a new wager "bet without thinking", they had no clue what kind of wager to make- let the tracks run racing more!!

[Jackal]

Horse racing will be nothing but short little meets in 20 years from now.
Compared to 25 years ago short lil meets is all racing is now.

[RichieP]

The takeouts at NYRA tracks for WPS/DD/Ex/Quin rank amongst the lowest 10% in the game. I don't see any reason to stop playing there.

Even though I'm not crazy about how NYRA does business, I do appreciate that they have tried many times over the years to lower takeout. They'd be lower than they are now if it weren't for the NYOTB's fighting takeout reductions tooth and nail.

Sharp post! :ThmbUp:

[WinterTriangle]

You can actually take advantage of a 0% takeout and refuse to play there.

"Consumers", in every sector, underestimate the power of the pocketbook.

The only way to hit any business where it hurts.

I live in a small town, spent about $150 a month with a small business. Until the day I was refused an extra bag. You know, those $0.01 plastic bags. Poor cashier had been instructed by corporate to guard resources, I guess. Based on receipts, I figured over 5 years they have lost about $9,000 in business from me. :) Double that, since my extended family won't shop there anymore, either.

It adds up.

[castaway01]

That's a given. Of course contracts would have to be renegotiated. But with all parties involved, they will be getting.

A. Status Quo: A larger slice of a shrinking handle.

or

B. Lowering the takeout: A smaller slice of a growing handle.

Which option is better for the long term health of the game by all parties that have a financial interest?

The real issue is that those in track management at MOST tracks either don't believe that cutting takeout will raise handle enough to make a difference and that they won't be running the tracks long enough to put their jobs in jeopardy if it fails. I think some people in charge do understand the benefits of cutting takeout but figure that fighting their state legislatures to do so in these economic times would likely be fruitless anyway.

[hazzardm]

"Consumers", in every sector, underestimate the power of the pocketbook.

The only way to hit any business where it hurts.

....

It adds up.

Yes, but the crack dealer knows his regulars will always be back, no matter the price, until they die.

[Show Me the Wire]

Name one shrinking industry (losing customers) that has cut price in its business model. The strategy is to increase price, fees, etc to maintain progit margins.AT&t land lines fees have recently increased, utility companies in hard hit foreclosure areas keep on adding fees to recoup costs, etc, etc.

Fewer customers means the fewer have to pay more to cover the bloated operating expenses and profit.

The track will follow the same model. increase takeout on less wagering handle to maintain margins. It is a fact of every business, either increase volume or increase price for the people that desire the service.

[toetoe]

Nothing infuriates me more than NYRA increasing their takeout from 16% for the pick 6 on non-carryover days to 26% on carryover days.



I'm with you, but many argue that we should see it as 10% off on non-carryover days.

I give it :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: out of five.

[post time]

mountaineer does all it can to turn away the horseplayer like the billboards read WE ARE SLOTS

[tzipi]

I don't think most fans are to thrilled to be out $10 or more between park enterance fee,parking lot fee,gate fee,program fee,etc even before the bet a horse! Then it's onto...
$6-7 beers.
$4-5 hotdogs
$3 sodas
The "VALUE" meals at Nathans at AQU and Belmont are like $8 to $10!

[Moyers Pond]

It used to be 25% for years, even on non-carryover days and changed the format a couple years ago. So by betting on a non-carryover day, you are actually taking advantage of a 9% takeout reduction.

Please spare me. Obviously you are a NYRA apologist.

Your argument is like a politician that raises taxes but says we aren't really raising taxes but are just putting taxes where they once were.

It is an absolute joke that the takeout on a bet can change from day to day.

A pick 6 is a pick 6 no matter what the carryover. T

This is clearly just a way for them to rip off the gambler.

[Moyers Pond]

The takeouts at NYRA tracks for WPS/DD/Ex/Quin rank amongst the lowest 10% in the game. I don't see any reason to stop playing there.

Even though I'm not crazy about how NYRA does business, I do appreciate that they have tried many times over the years to lower takeout. They'd be lower than they are now if it weren't for the NYOTB's fighting takeout reductions tooth and nail.

There is no reason to stop playing there, they have the best racing, but it is still a criminal enterprise. It rips off the customer as much as possible and the pick six scam is atrocious. It is like a bookie increasing their vig for the superbowl and playoff games. After NYRA is done ripping off the customer it rips off the NY taxpayer by asking for bailouts because they are incompetent and can't run their business. Then they have all their NYRA "thug" apologists that get on message boards and make excuses for them. It is amazing how a gambling operation is given non-profit status by a government. Can you imagine Wynn or the Bellagio as a non-profit? NYRA really is less non-profit than a slush fund for corrupt politicians and business.

[The Hawk]

There is no reason to stop playing there, they have the best racing, but it is still a criminal enterprise.

First of all, it's hardly the best racing, outside of Saratoga. Not with Fair Grounds and Churchill running, and Gulfstream and Oaklawn coming up the second part of the winter. Even Tampa is more intriguing most days.

Secondly, think about what you typed up there: There is no reason to stop playing, but it's still a criminal enterprise? WHY would you play a Pick 6 there, knowing you're a rube?

[PaceAdvantage]

There is no reason to stop playing there, they have the best racing, but it is still a criminal enterprise. It rips off the customer as much as possible and the pick six scam is atrocious. It is like a bookie increasing their vig for the superbowl and playoff games. After NYRA is done ripping off the customer it rips off the NY taxpayer by asking for bailouts because they are incompetent and can't run their business. Then they have all their NYRA "thug" apologists that get on message boards and make excuses for them. It is amazing how a gambling operation is given non-profit status by a government. Can you imagine Wynn or the Bellagio as a non-profit? NYRA really is less non-profit than a slush fund for corrupt politicians and business.Tell us how you feel about NYCOTB. :lol:

[Zman179]

Please spare me. Obviously you are a NYRA apologist.

Your argument is like a politician that raises taxes but says we aren't really raising taxes but are just putting taxes where they once were.

It is an absolute joke that the takeout on a bet can change from day to day.

A pick 6 is a pick 6 no matter what the carryover. T

This is clearly just a way for them to rip off the gambler.

Obviously if you had read some of my prior posts, then the last thing you'd call me is a NYRA apologist. I just remember that Barry Schwartz proposed the reduced Pick 6 takeout in 2004 in order to increase carryovers.

As far as your second post, there is a lot of truth in it. I also know that it is my home track, and if I want to see live racing (which I prefer), then I have to deal with some of the crap that goes on there. I have fun when I go to the races and that's what matters. With that said, I do not feel that a 15% WPS, 17.5% DD/EX/QN and 16% P6 (no carryover) takeout are ripoffs. Many other tracks charge much more than that.

[BillW]

15% WPS, 17.5% DD/EX/QN .

16% WPS, 18.5% DD/EX/QN - they raised them on you when you weren't looking ;)

[the little guy]

16% WPS, 18.5% DD/EX/QN - they raised them on you when you weren't looking ;)


As anyone who bothers to check the facts knows, these rates are set by the State, and not NYRA, and the 1% raise was against the recomendations of NYRA.

Sincerely,

NYRA Thug


( God, I hope they have someone tougher than me )

[Horseplayersbet.com]

As anyone who bothers to check the facts knows, these rates are set by the State, and not NYRA, and the 1% raise was against the recomendations of NYRA.

Sincerely,

NYRA Thug


( God, I hope they have someone tougher than me )
I thought it is the New York Racing board that final decisions on NYRA's recommendations.
At least that is how it used to work:
http://www.governmentlaw.org/files/NYRA_takeout.pdf

[the little guy]

I thought it is the New York Racing board that final decisions on NYRA's recommendations.
At least that is how it used to work:
http://www.governmentlaw.org/files/NYRA_takeout.pdf


I thought that was implicit. Sorry.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Found this interesting tidbit from 2001:

The THOROUGHBRED TIMES reported, "Total commingled handle at the three New York Racing Association racetracks has surpassed $2-billion so far this year, increasing by more than $200-million, or 10.4%, over the handle registered at the same time in 2001." The handle on NYRA races has reached $2,128B, with NYRA Chair Barry Schwartz attributing the surge "to the takeout reduction that has been in place since July 25, 2001," which has "returned an additional $46.4-million to bettors." Additionally, Schwartz credited the NYRA's new media efforts, including wireless technology initiatives, for the increased handle (THOROUGHBRED TIMES, 9/28).

************************************
How much is NYRA handle up this year with that increase in takeout that happened in April?

[BillW]

As anyone who bothers to check the facts knows, these rates are set by the State, and not NYRA, and the 1% raise was against the recomendations of NYRA.

Sincerely,

NYRA Thug


( God, I hope they have someone tougher than me )

so that means it doesn't cost me as much? :rolleyes:

[Zman179]

16% WPS, 18.5% DD/EX/QN - they raised them on you when you weren't looking ;)

Heh, looked at tomorrow's Daily Racing Program to get the rates. Obviously not updated by DRF.

[BillW]

Heh, looked at tomorrow's Daily Racing Program to get the rates. Obviously not updated by DRF.

Yes they seem to be behind on a few (on their website).

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Yes they seem to be behind on a few (on their website).
Yeah, they can't be trusted as an up to date source as HANA found out last year.

I predict that when HANA does the track ratings for 2009, the DRF will be looking at us as the source for up to date takeout info.

[Bochall]

Mistreating customers is not the way to grow a business, unless you have a unique product. Horseplayers have proven repeatedly that they will put up with just about anything...just lemme bet. Watch us pay that $10 admission charge to CD night racing next spring, watch many of us pay DRF's ridiculous prices for their pp's, watch us bet into the highest takeout pools repeatedly, etc etc etc... Bottom line is that many of us are addicted to playing the horses (we WILL not stop no matter how much we are gouged...kinda like drugs eh?) so why would our 'dealers' change anything? They've got us...

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Mistreating customers is not the way to grow a business, unless you have a unique product. Horseplayers have proven repeatedly that they will put up with just about anything...just lemme bet. Watch us pay that $10 admission charge to CD night racing next spring, watch many of us pay DRF's ridiculous prices for their pp's, watch us bet into the highest takeout pools repeatedly, etc etc etc... Bottom line is that many of us are addicted to playing the horses (we WILL not stop no matter how much we are gouged...kinda like drugs eh?) so why would our 'dealers' change anything? They've got us...
If you look at the handle figures from this year, and even during the economic boon that proceeded that downturn, their hold on us is dwindling very quickly.

[Bochall]

Their hold on us is dwindling cuz we are dying and no new customers are being brought in, but the hold on the older segment is firm as always IMO. Handle is down because new young money isnt there and old money is dying. In other words, it is hard to assemble a boycott/protest/strike among addicts. Too many will break the picket lines and that will reassure the tracks that all is well. Racing is dying because it isnt bringing in new fans, not because it has alienated all its existing ones.

[wisconsin]

[QUOTE=Bochall] watch many of us pay DRF's ridiculous prices for their pp's QUOTE]

I'll agree on the rest, but you can't lump DRF in with the tracks or the screwed up system. They provide a valid service. A service that many use, including myself. It's frustrating to pay through the nose, but I can't imagine being at the track without it.

[fmolf]

[QUOTE=Bochall] watch many of us pay DRF's ridiculous prices for their pp's QUOTE]

I'll agree on the rest, but you can't lump DRF in with the tracks or the screwed up system. They provide a valid service. A service that many use, including myself. It's frustrating to pay through the nose, but I can't imagine being at the track without it.
tracks should be giving us the pp's and giving us free beverages ...can you imagine playing blackjack and having to buy the cards!Their mentality is still from the era when they were the only game in town!Until the change and begin to compete with the casinos and poker rooms they will continue to die a slow horrible death!

[tzipi]

[QUOTE=wisconsin]
tracks should be giving us the pp's and giving us free beverages ...can you imagine playing blackjack and having to buy the cards!Their mentality is still from the era when they were the only game in town!Until the change and begin to compete with the casinos and poker rooms they will continue to die a slow horrible death!

Tracks will never give anything away for free. That's one of the biggest reasons no one goes anymore. It's too much money just to enter a track with park enterence,parking,gate,program,etc. Then yeah you have to deal with $6-$7 beers,$6 -$5 bland burgers,etc. As of now,they are dying a slow death and it seems they do not care.

The racinos will knock the racing off anyway after a couple of years from these failing tracks. They really do not want anything to do with the racing,they just said they did so they could get the profitable casinos in there.

[wisconsin]

BUt you can't blame DRF. All I was saying there.

[PaceAdvantage]

[QUOTE=fmolf]

Tracks will never give anything away for free. That's one of the biggest reasons no one goes anymore. It's too much money just to enter a track with park enterence,parking,gate,program,etc. Hey, at least at Aqueduct, it's free to park and free to enter. But as you said in another thread, the grandstand (at least the non-Clubhouse grandstand part) is closed. Ahhh...life is full of trade-offs....

[tzipi]

[QUOTE=tzipi]Hey, at least at Aqueduct, it's free to park and free to enter. But as you said in another thread, the grandstand (at least the non-Clubhouse grandstand part) is closed. Ahhh...life is full of trade-offs....

Yeah,well I will say the free parking and no entry fee is good for Aqueduct. Better than the $6 it costs me to get into Belmont,not including track program. But I figure Aqueduct knows it would kill them if they charged the fans to go there the last couple years. I remember a couple years back it was $1 park and $1 entry but they stopped that once the attendance was dropping,I think.

[Jackal]

Racing has been in decline as long as I can remember. Back in the 70s the manager of Penn National said he wasn't worried about the $2 bettor. The $2 bettor would jump the fence to get a bet down.

It might be true that $2 bettors will jump the fence to make a wager. But track management can't make the $2 bettor miserable and stay in business. I remember crowds of of several thousand at Jefferson Downs (now defunct). Today the crowds are smaller on Saturday at FG - a much nicer facility.

The $2 bettor might not do much for the parimutuel handle. But they spend money on everything else. Track management has their head stuck up...