Does a trainer or jockey need a KY Derby win to be considered truly great?

[Moyers Pond]

At first I didn't think so but looking at the list it really is almost a requirement. I don't think winning the race makes you a great, but is it like a Dan Marino who never won a Superbowl?

Frankel, Pletcher, and Asmussen are all excellent trainers but all lack the biggest prize in the sport.

The winners are basically the elite of the sport. Whittingham, Van Berg, Lukas, Baffert, Zito, Drysdale, Ward, Nafzgar, Woody Stephens, Jimmy Jones, Ben Jones, Leroy Jolley, Laurin, etc.

As for jockeys, Bailey, Day, Antley, Cordero, Stevens, etc. all won the race.

[46zilzal]

At first I didn't think so but looking at the list it really is almost a requirement. I don't think winning the race makes you a great, but is it like a Dan Marino who never won a Superbowl?

Frankel, Pletcher, and Asmussen are all excellent trainers but all lack the biggest prize in the sport.

The winners are basically the elite of the sport. Whittingham, Van Berg, Lukas, Baffert, Zito, Drysdale, Ward, Nafzgar, Woody Stephens, Jimmy Jones, Ben Jones, Leroy Jolley, Laurin, etc.

As for jockeys, Bailey, Day, Antley, Cordero, Stevens, etc. all won the race.

NO consider how long it took two Hall of Fame riders, Day and Laffit to win a single one. It has a lot to do with good old fashioned LUCK.

[Moyers Pond]

NO consider how long it took two Hall of Fame riders, Day and Laffit to win a single one. It has a lot to do with good old fashioned LUCK.

I have to disagree. The "immortal" trainers all found a way to win the Derby. Some took nearly their entire life, but the won it.

I think you can be great without winning it, but I don't think you can join the list of "immortals" like a Whittingham or Stephens.

[toussaud]

Allen Jerkins
Bobby Frankel
Richard Mandella
Ron McAnally
Shug McGaughey
Frank Whitney Jr

none of them have ever won a kentucky derby and that is a who's who of american T Bred trainers.

Yes richard mandella won 4 breeders cup races in 1 day but he is not a great trainer becuase he never won a derby. lol

[SMOO]

Too small of a sample size.

[Moyers Pond]

Allen Jerkins
Bobby Frankel
Richard Mandella
Ron McAnally
Shug McGaughey
Frank Whitney Jr

none of them have ever won a kentucky derby and that is a who's who of american T Bred trainers.

Yes richard mandella won 4 breeders cup races in 1 day but he is not a great trainer becuase he never won a derby. lol

I don't think any of them are in the league with a Whittingham or Woody Stephens.

If there was a Hall of Fame like in baseball where the truly greats are on one floor and the others on another floor, I don't think any of those guys would be on the first floor with a Whittingham, Stephens, or even Lukas, who I can't stand.

[toussaud]

the original question was do you have to win a derby to be considered "great"

there isn't anyone here ont his forum in their right mind that would call.. Nike Zito, a better trainer than Frank Whitney Jr. Or say john servis is a better trainer than Shug McGaughey. but that's what you are implying by saying you have to win a derby to be considered truely great

you fail. sorry.

[Moyers Pond]

the original question was do you have to win a derby to be considered "great"

there isn't anyone here ont his forum in their right mind that would call.. Nike Zito, a better trainer than Frank Whitney Jr. Or say john servis is a better trainer than Shug McGaughey. but that's what you are implying by saying you have to win a derby to be considered truely great

you fail. sorry.

First, I think you should learn Frank's last name before throwing him into a discussion. Give me a break. That is disgraceful. What are you a teenager?

Nobody said Zito or Servis was a better trainer than Shug. But Zito's derby success is what puts him into the discussion with greats, not the rest of his career.

You need to win a derby just like Marino needed a Superbowl win to join the "immortals". It really is pretty simple. These guys are all greats, but not the great of the greats.

[Bochall]

This is silly. Ya'll are arguing btw being great and truly great. The Derby is a mosh pit and the biggest crapshoot in American racing. Luck plays a big role...so does having the best horse. Pletch, Assman and others all would have won if Big Brown were given to them.

[Moyers Pond]

This is silly. Ya'll are arguing btw being great and truly great. The Derby is a mosh pit and the biggest crapshoot in American racing. Luck plays a big role...so does having the best horse. Pletch, Assman and others all would have won if Big Brown were given to them.

That is what sports arguments are. People argue if Dan Marino belongs in the same sentence as Joe Montana all the time. People argued the same with Alex Rodriguez in baseball until he won the biggest prize in his sport. The argument exists right now with Lebron James.

I don't love Dutrow but you are wrong when you say Pletch or Asmussen would have won with Big Brown. Dutrow made a very smart decision taking the risk and going to the Derby with a horse off a larger than usual layoff.

Say what you want but trainers, even Frankel, screw up the Derby all the time. Would Funny Cide have beaten Empire Maker if Empire Maker had skipped the Wood?

Jockeys give great rides and bad rides in the derby all the time.

Like it or not, the KY Derby is the biggest race in the sport. It is the Daytona 500 of horse racing, the Wimbledon of Tennis, and the Masters of Golf.

[Bochall]

I disagree with the Derby being the Indy 500, Wimbledon etc... because the BEST PLAYERS/RACERS are in those events. The Derby is the most FAMOUS race but it isnt the BEST horses. We all know that. Its the BC Classic usually. The Derby is more like the NCAA Final Four since the big boys are waiting later in the year.

[Moyers Pond]

I disagree with the Derby being the Indy 500, Wimbledon etc... because the BEST PLAYERS/RACERS are in those events. The Derby is the most FAMOUS race but it isnt the BEST horses. We all know that. Its the BC Classic usually. The Derby is more like the NCAA Final Four since the big boys are waiting later in the year.

It doesn't mean you are the best horse, it just means you won the biggest race in the sport. All those other contests are the biggest events in their sports. It is like the ARC in Europe. Many great horses can't run 12f and don't run, but the ARC is still the race everyone wants to win.

I really think a jockey probably needs it more than a trainer, but I was amazed to see how the "immortals" of riding and training all found ways to win the Derby.

I was looking at Pletcher's career and he clearly is going to shatter all the records of the sport, but I don't really think he can be a Whittingham or even a Lukas without a Derby win. It is unbelievable what pace he is on in terms of dollars won.

[Bochall]

I do see your point Moyers but my thinkin is that the Derby is sooooo tough that it alone should not preclude greatness. It is interesting how many did find a way to win it though.

[46zilzal]

I don't think any of them are in the league with a Whittingham or Woody Stephens.

If there was a Hall of Fame like in baseball where the truly greats are on one floor and the others on another floor, I don't think any of those guys would be on the first floor with a Whittingham, Stephens, or even Lukas, who I can't stand.
Shug and Frank Whitley not in the same league as the Bald Eagle or Woody? Funny stuff

[46zilzal]

I do see your point Moyers but my thinkin is that the Derby is sooooo tough that it alone should not preclude greatness. It is interesting how many did find a way to win it though.
Dark Star, Lil E T....a number of them were just the best and luckiest THAT DAY

[Moyers Pond]

Shug and Frank Whitley not in the same league as the Bald Eagle or Woody? Funny stuff

Shug definitely not Woody or Whittingham. Sorry.

Whitely is probably in the Frankel category. Just a notch below the "immortal" crowd. If there were floors in the Hall of Fame they would be floor 2.

Woody and Whittingham are in that Man o War-Secretariat league.

Whitely probably in the Seattle Slew league.

Shug fittingly in the Easy Goer league.

[Moyers Pond]

Dark Star, Lil E T....a number of them were just the best and luckiest THAT DAY

Winning the race does not mean you are great. Plus you are talking about horses, not trainers or jockeys. Most Trainers and jockeys get multiple cracks at it. Horses do not.

[saratoga guy]

Moyers -- you're giving your opinion as to the "non-great" status of some of the trainers listed, which is fine. But it's your opinion.

I'm reasonably certain that most racing fans and pundits would list both Frankel and Jerkens among the all-time "greats".

And I think that opinion will only be further confrimed and validated over time.

not consider Frankel a "great": http://drf.com/images/Frankel_111809.pdf ]

[Dahoss9698]

At first I didn't think so but looking at the list it really is almost a requirement. I don't think winning the race makes you a great, but is it like a Dan Marino who never won a Superbowl?

Frankel, Pletcher, and Asmussen are all excellent trainers but all lack the biggest prize in the sport.

The winners are basically the elite of the sport. Whittingham, Van Berg, Lukas, Baffert, Zito, Drysdale, Ward, Nafzgar, Woody Stephens, Jimmy Jones, Ben Jones, Leroy Jolley, Laurin, etc.

As for jockeys, Bailey, Day, Antley, Cordero, Stevens, etc. all won the race.

Ward? Are you referring to John Ward?

[Moyers Pond]

Ward? Are you referring to John Ward?

Yes, but Ward and quite a few of the winners are not "immortals", but I included them to point out how amazingly most of these guys found ways to win the race.

It really is quite remarkable how many of the "elite" found ways to win a 20 horse race.

[Moyers Pond]

Moyers -- you're giving your opinion as to the "non-great" status of some of the trainers listed, which is fine. But it's your opinion.

I'm reasonably certain that most racing fans and pundits would list both Frankel and Jerkens among the all-time "greats".

And I think that opinion will only be further confrimed and validated over time.

not consider Frankel a "great": http://drf.com/images/Frankel_111809.pdf ]

I think all of them are great, just not "truly" great.

I am just sort of differentiating between trainers/jockeys like I would horses.

Seattle Slew was great, but clearly he was not Secretariat.


Frankel and Jerkens are definitely great trainers, but they are sort of like great football coaches that never won the Superbowl. Just an opinion, but that is what sports are about.

[Dahoss9698]

Yes, but Ward and quite a few of the winners are not "immortals", but I included them to point out how amazingly most of these guys found ways to win the race.

It really is quite remarkable how many of the "elite" found ways to win a 20 horse race.

Thanks. This thread just got more laughable. John Ward is an "elite" trainer? More laughs.

Allen Jerkens isn't an "immortal" in your eyes, but John Ward is an "elite" trainer. Do you follow the sport?

[saratoga guy]

I think all of them are great, just not "truly" great.

"Truly great". "Great great". "Super great".

However you want to parse it out -- Frankel and Jerkens would be on the same floor of your imaginary Hall of Fame with the best of the best.

[Moyers Pond]

Thanks. This thread just got more laughable. John Ward is an "elite" trainer? More laughs.

Allen Jerkens isn't an "immortal" in your eyes, but John Ward is an "elite" trainer. Do you follow the sport?

Ward is an elite in the sport. He has been involved with a derby winner and purchased another, but I don't think he is great. The point was that it is amazing how many of the biggest names in the sport found a way to win the biggest race in the sport.

I think Jerkens is significantly better than Ward., but he clearly is not in the category of a Whittingham, Stephens, or even Lukas. To suggest he is borders on ridiculous.

[Moyers Pond]

"Truly great". "Great great". "Super great".

However you want to parse it out -- Frankel and Jerkens would be on the same floor of your imaginary Hall of Fame with the best of the best.

No they really wouldn't. Sorry. They would be on the floor with Dan Reeves and Jeff Fisher. Guys who were great but couldn't win the big one. Floor 2.

[Dahoss9698]

Ward is an elite in the sport. He has been involved with a derby winner and purchased another, but I don't think he is great. The point was that it is amazing how many of the biggest names in the sport found a way to win the biggest race in the sport.

I think Jerkens is significantly better than Ward., but he clearly is not in the category of a Whittingham, Stephens, or even Lukas. To suggest he is borders on ridiculous.

I ask again, do you follow the sport?

I think it's pretty clear what's ridiculous in this thread.

[Moyers Pond]

I ask again, do you follow the sport?

I think it's pretty clear what's ridiculous in this thread.

I most certainly do. I have had some minor investments in it also, and will do so again once the pinhooking market picks up.

I think you miss the point of the thread. It is like differentiating between Secretariat and say a Spectacular Bid. Both are great, but one did what the other couldn't.

I think the guy that managed to win the biggest race in the sport clearly deserves to be held in a higher position than a guy who basically was able to do everything the other did but couldn't win the big one.

Jerkens has not been able to do what Whittingham, Stephens, or Lukas could do. In fact, they all managed to win the derby multiple times.

Clearly Pletcher is going to shatter what Lukas has done, but unless he wins the Derby can he really be considered in the same category? I say no.

[bisket]

absolutely not!!!

[bisket]

pletchers primary problem as far as the derby is concerned is premature ejaculation ;)

[Moyers Pond]

absolutely not!!!

So Jerkens who never won the Derby deserves to be in the same category as a Whittingham? Clearly their resumes are identical in terms of accomplishments, except there is a very large hole in the resume of Jerkens.

[Moyers Pond]

pletchers primary problem as far as the derby is concerned is premature ejaculation ;)

:D

Funny, but until he wins a Derby I don't think he can be placed in the same category as Lukas. A lack of a derby winner is just too large of a hole in the resume.

[Dahoss9698]

I most certainly do. I have had some minor investments in it also, and will do so again once the pinhooking market picks up.

I think you miss the point of the thread. It is like differentiating between Secretariat and say a Spectacular Bid. Both are great, but one did what the other couldn't.

I think the guy that managed to win the biggest race in the sport clearly deserves to be held in a higher position than a guy who basically was able to do everything the other did but couldn't win the big one.

Jerkens has not been able to do what Whittingham, Stephens, or Lukas could do. In fact, they all managed to win the derby multiple times.

Your thread is dumb. I haven't missed the point of it. I'm pointing out how dumb it is. The Kentucky Derby is a great race, but it's not the end all be all in terms of the sport. To treat it as such is ridiculous. When you judge someone's career, you look at the entire body of work. Not whether or not they won one specific race.

[GaryG]

So Jerkens who never won the Derby deserves to be in the same category as a Whittingham? Clearly their resumes are identical in terms of accomplishments, except there is a very large hole in the resume of Jerkens.Whittingham was in his 70s when he wom with Ferdinand. He ran few horses in the derby because he was more patient with his 3yo. Charlie was great if he never ran a horse in the derby. Might have had a hole in his resume though.....:rolleyes:

[Moyers Pond]

Your thread is dumb. I haven't missed the point of it. I'm pointing out how dumb it is. The Kentucky Derby is a great race, but it's not the end all be all in terms of the sport. To treat it as such is ridiculous. When you judge someone's career, you look at the entire body of work. Not whether or not they won one specific race.

Sure you do, but it is not different than a great coach that never wins the Superbowl or World Series.

There is no argument the Kentucky Derby is the biggest race in the sport. There is a reason every trainer and jockey wants to win it so badly.

I think Jerkens is great but it still does not change the fact that he has not been able to do what Whittingham, Stephens, and Lukas have done multiple times.

[Dahoss9698]

Sure you do, but it is not different than a great coach that never wins the Superbowl or World Series.

There is no argument the Kentucky Derby is the biggest race in the sport. There is a reason every trainer and jockey wants to win it so badly.

I think Jerkens is great but it still does not change the fact that he has not been able to do what Whittingham, Stephens, and Lukas have done multiple times.

Who cares if he has won a Derby?

Winning a Derby is more luck than anything. You have to have the right horse, on the right day, with the right trip.

Chip Wooley won a freaking Derby. Enough said.

[Stillriledup]

At first I didn't think so but looking at the list it really is almost a requirement. I don't think winning the race makes you a great, but is it like a Dan Marino who never won a Superbowl?

Frankel, Pletcher, and Asmussen are all excellent trainers but all lack the biggest prize in the sport.

The winners are basically the elite of the sport. Whittingham, Van Berg, Lukas, Baffert, Zito, Drysdale, Ward, Nafzgar, Woody Stephens, Jimmy Jones, Ben Jones, Leroy Jolley, Laurin, etc.

As for jockeys, Bailey, Day, Antley, Cordero, Stevens, etc. all won the race.


No.

Marino. No Ring. Great.

Dilfer. Ring. Not Great.

[Stillriledup]

Empire Maker would have won the Derby by 5 if he didnt' race with a busted up foot in that race. You have to get incredibly lucky to win the Derby. Too much luck involved to say that a guy who hasn't won it isn't still great.

Also, another factor is how much the Derby is on that trainer's radar. Some trainers, who are great and very conservative, don't believe pushing horses to the Derby unless they're abslutely a contender. Frankel might be one of those types who's not just going there to go like many other trainers.

[bisket]

So Jerkens who never won the Derby deserves to be in the same category as a Whittingham? Clearly their resumes are identical in terms of accomplishments, except there is a very large hole in the resume of Jerkens.
i don't think the fact that a trainer has never had a 3 year old ready and capable of winning the derby; should be held against him or her. i think this whole mindset is utterly ridiculous. its this exact mindset that has lead the game into the place its in right now. lukas basically started this predicament that we're in. lets look at how he won those derbys. he had a barn of approximately 25-30 3 year olds every year. the year before there were approximately 50 -70 2 year olds. so anywhere between 25-50 he already ran into the ground by training them as if they were a seasoned 4 year old!! by the time may came around those 25-30 were down to 10-15. i have no respect for that man!! the breeders absolutley loved him because he basically created the market for horses that developed early and were lame by the time they were 3. we now have the multitude of graded :rolleyes: preps for the derby for this reason. the handicap division is a farce because the bottom line is our horses aren't breed to last. just get a graded victory on the derby trail and the horse is set as a stallion. then retire the stead as fast as we can. name one horse that lukas or baffert campagned on the turf!! you can't can you. how many of these horses that lukas had could have had a career on the turf? i guess we don't know because the man didn't have a clue how to train a horse for stamina!! which is what is needed to run on turf. even at a mile. how many runners did whittingham actually run in the derby? only a few. why because the man knew how to train a horse. horses that are talented and derby ready don't come along that often in a trainers career who actually knows how to train a horse!! lukas isn't one of these trainers. bill mott and jerkins are and were twice the trainer lukas ever was.

[bisket]

thanks still riled you managed to say what i wanted to say in one sentence :D

[Moyers Pond]

Empire Maker would have won the Derby by 5 if he didnt' race with a busted up foot in that race. You have to get incredibly lucky to win the Derby. Too much luck involved to say that a guy who hasn't won it isn't still great.

Also, another factor is how much the Derby is on that trainer's radar. Some trainers, who are great and very conservative, don't believe pushing horses to the Derby unless they're abslutely a contender. Frankel might be one of those types who's not just going there to go like many other trainers.

Actually as John White pointed out Frankel sort of blew it with Empire Maker.

This is not a knock on any trainer, but many see not winning the derby like not winning a championship. You need to win the big one.

[Moyers Pond]

No.

Marino. No Ring. Great.

Dilfer. Ring. Not Great.


One more time for you. Winning a championship does not make you great.

However, a guy that wins one that is great, like a Montana or Elway, is a step above the great guy that never one one, like Marino.

Like it or not, Marino can never be considered in the league with a Montana or Elway.

They won the big one, and he didn't.

[Stillriledup]

One more time for you. Winning a championship does not make you great.

However, a guy that wins one that is great, like a Montana or Elway, is a step above the great guy that never one one, like Marino.

Like it or not, Marino can never be considered in the league with a Montana or Elway.

They won the big one, and he didn't.

Still riddle me this batman. Why do you feel Dilfer is not great. He's won a ring, explain to me why he's not as good or better than Dan Marino.

[bisket]

the derby is not the BIG ONE. its a race thats restricted to 3 year olds. just about any grade 1 handicap field (nowadays not so sure) is better than the derby winner!! the derby is the race that is supposed to sort out who's good enough for the handicap division. let me put it to you this way. if macho again would run in the derby next may. he would most liklely win!!, and he's not even the best handicap horse. hopefully that will give you some perspective on what i'm trying to point out!!

[Moyers Pond]

Still riddle me this batman. Why do you feel Dilfer is not great. He's won a ring, explain to me why he's not as good or better than Dan Marino.

Dilfer does not have the career stats of a great quarterback.

Tier 1 Great career stats and a superbowl win. Elway
Tier 2 Great career stats Marino
Tier 3 A superbowl win Dilfer and many mediocre quarterbacks


You just can't put Marino in the same category and Elway. He couldn't do something Elway could.

[Moyers Pond]

the derby is not the BIG ONE. its a race thats restricted to 3 year olds. just about any grade 1 handicap field (nowadays not so sure) is better than the derby winner!! the derby is the race that is supposed to sort out who's good enough for the handicap division. let me put it to you this way. if macho again would run in the derby next may. he would most liklely win!!, and he's not even the best handicap horse. hopefully that will give you some perspective on what i'm trying to point out!!

Yes it is. Ask anyone in the sport. 99% of people in the business get in it with the dream of winning the derby.

It is the 1 race everyone wants to win. There is a reason it gets huge television ratings while other big races do not even get on tv.

Sit down with any trainer and jockey and they will tell you that is the one race they want to win.

[Cratos]

At first I didn't think so but looking at the list it really is almost a requirement. I don't think winning the race makes you a great, but is it like a Dan Marino who never won a Superbowl?

Frankel, Pletcher, and Asmussen are all excellent trainers but all lack the biggest prize in the sport.

The winners are basically the elite of the sport. Whittingham, Van Berg, Lukas, Baffert, Zito, Drysdale, Ward, Nafzgar, Woody Stephens, Jimmy Jones, Ben Jones, Leroy Jolley, Laurin, etc.

As for jockeys, Bailey, Day, Antley, Cordero, Stevens, etc. all won the race.

I want to understand this because I am very confused. A trainer trains 4 of the best horses to ever run over the American turf in Damascus, Tom Rolfe, Ruffian, and Forego; and you go don’t rate this trainer with the likes of Whittingham, Lukas, or Stephens?

I would rate Frank Yewell Whiteley, Jr., the “Fox of Laurel” equal to the Joneses (Ben and Jimmy) of Calumet Farm and better than Whittingham, Lukas, or Stephens. During the 60s and 70s, Whiteley was one of the best if not the best “money” trainer on the NYRA circuit and that was when NRYA was the crème de la crème of racing circuits in North America.

[Pell Mell]

Maybe the question should be "If asked what their goal as a trainer is?", What would most trainers say?

Would they say they want to be a hall of famer, or would they say I'd love to win the derby?

[bisket]

funny how some of whitely's protege's are on the list of those that didn't win THE BIG ONE. namely jerkins.

[Moyers Pond]

I want to understand this because I am very confused. A trainer trains 4 of the best horses to ever run over the American turf in Damascus, Tom Rolfe, Ruffian, and Forego; and you go don’t rate this trainer with the likes of Whittingham, Lukas, or Stephens?

I would rate Frank Yewell Whiteley, Jr., the “Fox of Laurel” equal to the Joneses (Ben and Jimmy) of Calumet Farm and better than Whittingham, Lukas, or Stephens. During the 60s and 70s, Whiteley was one of the best if not the best “money” trainer on the NYRA circuit and that was when NRYA was the crème de la crème of racing circuits in North America.

Better? Considering they have as good of a resume AND have multiple wins in the biggest race in the sport I just can't see that.

Whittingham, Lukas, and Stephens all were as successful as Whitely, AND they did what he couldn't do, win the biggest race in the sport.

I think anyone can argue Whitely belongs in their category, I just am of the opinion that he falls a little short.

It is all a fine line but to split the "immortals" from the greats I think you need to win the biggest race in the sport.

[Moyers Pond]

Maybe the question should be "If asked what their goal as a trainer is?", What would most trainers say?

Would they say they want to be a hall of famer, or would they say I'd love to win the derby?

Most would say BOTH.

[bisket]

yes the derby may be the race all yearns to win, but is not the test of champions. its the test to determine who has a chance to be champion. question: how many derby winners are actually named hoy? answer VERY FEW. to expound on this how many derby winners are even champion 3 year old? about 1/2!! nuff said.

[Stillriledup]

Curlin lost the Derby. Should Curlin be denied the hall of fame because he lost the Derby?

[Moyers Pond]

Curlin lost the Derby. Should Curlin be denied the hall of fame because he lost the Derby?

It is different. He is a horse. It is one and done for him. Trainers and jockeys have entire careers to win the race.

There is no right or wrong here. It is an opinion. I think winning the KY Derby sets you apart from others, but what do I know. I have never won the race.

Some argue Marino belongs in the same sentence as Montana. I disagree. But they aren't wrong. It is just opinion.

[Moyers Pond]

yes the derby may be the race all yearns to win, but is not the test of champions. its the test to determine who has a chance to be champion. question: how many derby winners are actually named hoy? answer VERY FEW. to expound on this how many derby winners are even champion 3 year old? about 1/2!! nuff said.

You are talking horses. The only have 1 shot, so it obviously is different.

I am talking trainers and jockeys. Trainers and jockeys, especially the good ones usually have more than 1 shot.

I don't see billionaire shiekhs buying Frankel's horse last year for $12 million because they wanted to win HOY with him. The gave Frankel/Torre all that money to win a KY Derby.

[Stillriledup]

It is different. He is a horse. It is one and done for him. Trainers and jockeys have entire careers to win the race.

There is no right or wrong here. It is an opinion. I think winning the KY Derby sets you apart from others, but what do I know. I have never won the race.

Some argue Marino belongs in the same sentence as Montana. I disagree. But they aren't wrong. It is just opinion.

I understand your points, you want to hold the all time greats to the ultimate standard. Here's something to think about. If you switched Marino and Montana's teams, Dan would have a few rings if he was a 49er. Yet, these two men would be the same exact QBs, just their situations would be switched around.

By saying that Marino and Montana don't belong in the same sentence is saying that you are holding it against Marino because he happened to play on teams that werent' good enough to win it.

Should we hold it against him because he got drafted by the Dolphins and they didnt' surround him with great enough players to win the biggest game?

Its tough to hold these guys to that standard in a team sport.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that if Marino was truly one of the all time greats, he would have found a way to win and overcome all odds to win with a team who wasn't the best. I guess there is some merit to that argument, i mean, marino did actually get to the game one time and lost, but he had a team good enough to get there, so you can make the case that he had a glorious chance to win it.

[Cratos]

Better? Considering they have as good of a resume AND have multiple wins in the biggest race in the sport I just can't see that.

Whittingham, Lukas, and Stephens all were as successful as Whitely, AND they did what he couldn't do, win the biggest race in the sport.

I think anyone can argue Whitely belongs in their category, I just am of the opinion that he falls a little short.

It is all a fine line but to split the "immortals" from the greats I think you need to win the biggest race in the sport.

I guess that John Nerud, Dr. Fager's trainer wouldn’t make your list of great trainers, but I think that you should know that Nerud said many times publicly that he didn’t believe in racing a young horse at the Derby distance of 1 ¼ miles. He preferred to wait until the horse became older to race it at that distance.

Does Nerud’s stance make him not a great trainer?

[bisket]

I guess that John Nerud, Dr. Fager's trainer wouldn’t make your list of great trainers, but I think that you should know that Nerud said many times publicly that he didn’t believe in racing a young horse at the Derby distance of 1 ¼ miles. He preferred to wait until the horse became older to race it at that distance.

Does Nerud’s stance make him not a great trainer?
this is the exact reason why most trainers have very few runners to even run in the race. i don't think it reflects badly on them at all. i do think it reflects badly on some of these trainers that turn up every year in the race. it means they are pushing young horses, and most liklely injuring many of them.

[Stillriledup]

this is the exact reason why most trainers have very few runners to even run in the race. i don't think it reflects badly on them at all. i do think it reflects badly on some of these trainers that turn up every year in the race. it means they are pushing young horses, and most liklely injuring many of them.


Great point. If i owned a star racehorse, no way he'd be racing in a field of 20 for only a purse of 1 million (or did they raise it?)

[46zilzal]

Would the world know about Grover Delp, an icon in the limited world of the Maryland/Delaware claiming circuit, without Bid?

Would we ever had heard of Cam Gambolotti if not for his having Spend A Buck in his barn?

How about Louie Roussel and Risen Star?

I contend that there are any number of very good trainer that just never get the client wit the fat check book.

We have a good competent trainer in Vancouver who was leading trainer the last several years, but one has to go back to 1963 the last time he was top of the heap. Is he any different, methods change? Nope he now has a patron who is wealthy and buys quality stock....Nice guy puts lots of money into the game... Same trainer, good horses: you get your name in the standings.

Horses make the trainer more often than the other way around.

[Tom]

Greatness is not measured in terms of one race. Is the trainer of Mine That bird great or lucky as sin? :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Greatness is not measured in terms of one race. Is the trainer of Mine That bird great or lucky as sin? :lol:

He's more fortunate than great. Winning the Derby is a fortunate occurance, just like hitting the lottery.

[WinterTriangle]

I was looking at Pletcher's career and he clearly is going to shatter all the records of the sport, but I don't really think he can be a Whittingham or even a Lukas without a Derby win.

You're assuming he would want to be lukas? et al?


Let's flip it around: If you had a *derby horse*, who would your trainer be?

(the ones I came up with never won a derby, so I guess I've answered the question indirectly.)

[WinterTriangle]

Greatness is not measured in terms of one race.

Greatness is not measurable, period.

It's an illusion we have.

Hence, we need to rate people and animals, and have awards. None of it measures anything, since it's subjective.

[PaceAdvantage]

name one horse that lukas or baffert campagned on the turf!!Steinlen

Next.

[Moyers Pond]

He's more fortunate than great. Winning the Derby is a fortunate occurance, just like hitting the lottery.

How many people win the lottery multiple times?

There is a lot more to it than luck.

[toussaud]

I understand your points, you want to hold the all time greats to the ultimate standard. Here's something to think about. If you switched Marino and Montana's teams, Dan would have a few rings if he was a 49er. Yet, these two men would be the same exact QBs, just their situations would be switched around.

By saying that Marino and Montana don't belong in the same sentence is saying that you are holding it against Marino because he happened to play on teams that werent' good enough to win it.

Should we hold it against him because he got drafted by the Dolphins and they didnt' surround him with great enough players to win the biggest game?

Its tough to hold these guys to that standard in a team sport.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that if Marino was truly one of the all time greats, he would have found a way to win and overcome all odds to win with a team who wasn't the best. I guess there is some merit to that argument, i mean, marino did actually get to the game one time and lost, but he had a team good enough to get there, so you can make the case that he had a glorious chance to win it.


dude..marino with jerry rice and taylor =sick

[46zilzal]

Steinlen

Next.
and tried to make that one run on the main track several times. You'd think after one debacle he might have caught on.

[Linny]

Comparing trainers to coaches is meaningless. Every coach tries to win the Super Bowl. Not every trainer is actually trying to win the Derby. How many times has Jerkens run in the Derby. I can't recall him running anything though I'm sure he has.
Bill Mott is a fabulous trainer but like Clement and others his focus has been on grass and on running older horses. Frankel was a great trainer who until Empire Maker never really had a "Derby" colt. As the house trainer for Juddmonte in the US, he was usually shipped late 3yo's or 4yo's who were either bleeding or a cut below in Europe. You are not likely to even get to the Derby when you are not buying sales yearlings with a certain look and breeding.
Shug as a private trainer is also at the mercy of the powerhouse breeder he works for. When Mott was working for Paulson, he handled the type of horses his main client had, older routing grass horses. That's no way to get to the Derby. Does that make him less a trainer than John Servis or Eddie Gregson or Chip Woolley, who have won the Derby?
The fact is that just comparing the Derby to the Super Bowl is moot. The Derby is NOT the most important race of the year and in a sport like racing where no one is eliminated as the year goes on (as happens in team sports) even the BC races can yield crazy results. Was Alphabet Soup better than Cigar? No but he beat him in the BC. He was a bit better under those circumstances on that day. One race doesn't make a career. Winning or not winning a particular race doesn't define a trainer.

[Cratos]

Below are the trainers with the most wins in the KY Derby and by the threshold set forth in this thread by “Moyers Pond” they would be considered to be the best trainers of all time.

However it can be clearly seen that these are not the best trainers of all time; they are just the trainers who has won the KY Derby multiple times. Also, D. Wayne Lukas has sent 39 starters through the KY Derby starting gate in his 22 years of Derby participation and won just 4 times, but Henry Forrest participated only twice and won both times. Who is the better trainer, Lukas or Forrest?

Legend: Trainer-(Derby Span)-Starters-1st-2nd-3rd-Unplaced

Ben A. Jones (1938-52) 11-6-2-1-2
H. J. "Dick" Thompson (1920-37) 24- 4-2-1-17
D. Wayne Lukas (1981-2002) 39-4-1-5-29
Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons (1930-57) 11-3-1- 0- 7
Max Hirsch (1915-51) 14-3-0-2-9
Woodford C. Stephens (1949-88) 14-2-3- 3- 6
Bob Baffert (1996-2002) 12- 3-1- 2- 6
LeRoy Jolley (1962-92) 13- 2-2-1- 8
*James Rowe, Sr. (N/A-1925) 18-2-1-1-14
H. A. "Jimmy" Jones (1956-58) 4- 2-1-0-1
Lucien Laurin (1966-73) 5-2-0-1-2
Horatio Luro (1960-81) 4-2-0-1- 1
Lazaro Barrera (1976-90) 5-2-0- 0-3
Henry Forrest (1966-68) 2-2-0-0-0
*John McGinty (N/A) N/A-2 - - -
Charlie Whittingham (1958-96) 7-2-1-0-4
Nicholas P. Zito (1990-2002) 12-2-0-0-10

[Bettowin]

dude..marino with jerry rice and taylor =sick

Switching Barry Sanders and Emmit Smith would have been even sicker:)

[toussaud]

Below are the trainers with the most wins in the KY Derby and by the threshold set forth in this thread by “Moyers Pond” they would be considered to be the best trainers of all time.

However it can be clearly seen that these are not the best trainers of all time; they are just the trainers who has won the KY Derby multiple times. Also, D. Wayne Lukas has sent 39 starters through the KY Derby starting gate in his 22 years of Derby participation and won just 4 times, but Henry Forrest participated only twice and won both times. Who is the better trainer, Lukas or Forrest?

Legend: Trainer-(Derby Span)-Starters-1st-2nd-3rd-Unplaced

Ben A. Jones (1938-52) 11-6-2-1-2
H. J. "Dick" Thompson (1920-37) 24- 4-2-1-17
D. Wayne Lukas (1981-2002) 39-4-1-5-29
Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons (1930-57) 11-3-1- 0- 7
Max Hirsch (1915-51) 14-3-0-2-9
Woodford C. Stephens (1949-88) 14-2-3- 3- 6
Bob Baffert (1996-2002) 12- 3-1- 2- 6
LeRoy Jolley (1962-92) 13- 2-2-1- 8
*James Rowe, Sr. (N/A-1925) 18-2-1-1-14
H. A. "Jimmy" Jones (1956-58) 4- 2-1-0-1
Lucien Laurin (1966-73) 5-2-0-1-2
Horatio Luro (1960-81) 4-2-0-1- 1
Lazaro Barrera (1976-90) 5-2-0- 0-3
Henry Forrest (1966-68) 2-2-0-0-0
*John McGinty (N/A) N/A-2 - - -
Charlie Whittingham (1958-96) 7-2-1-0-4
Nicholas P. Zito (1990-2002) 12-2-0-0-10


i'll take it a step farther than that.

Look at two active trainers on that list. Lukas and Jolley. there are some people that do not know that he actally is still training horses. that's how far he has fallen off the map.

when is the last time you seen lukas with a really really good 2YO.

people smartened up.

I am not as familar with jolley as I'm pretty young, but i would imagine as a previous poster said, it was more than "racing luck" than got all those derby starters

[Linny]

Lukas won the Hopeful with Dublin but LeRoy Jolley can barely get horses to train. He was stuck in the Saratoga stakes barn (not that that's a bad place) for the last couple of years.

[Cratos]

i'll take it a step farther than that.

Look at two active trainers on that list. Lukas and Jolley. there are some people that do not know that he actally is still training horses. that's how far he has fallen off the map.

when is the last time you seen lukas with a really really good 2YO.

people smartened up.

I am not as familar with jolley as I'm pretty young, but i would imagine as a previous poster said, it was more than "racing luck" than got all those derby starters


Leroy Jolley a very good trainer and the son of Moody Jolley (also a very good trainer) won the KY Derby in 1975 with Foolish Pleasure and again in 1980 with Genuine Risk. Both horses were good when compared to their generation and deserved to win the Derby.

I think Leroy Jolley who might be in his seventies now, might still be training on the NYRA circuit, but I am not aware of any of his current horses

[toussaud]

Lukas won the Hopeful with Dublin but LeRoy Jolley can barely get horses to train. He was stuck in the Saratoga stakes barn (not that that's a bad place) for the last couple of years.


i said good 2YO's. dublin doesn't coun t

[bisket]

Steinlen

Next.
ok name 2

[Grits]

Baffert ran Bob and Beverly Lewis' Senor Swinger on turf.

Where does he stand now? I have no earthly idea. I doubt Baffert knows either.........:lol:

[toussaud]

Baffert ran Bob and Beverly Lewis' Senor Swinger on turf.

Where does he stand now? I have no earthly idea. I doubt Baffert knows either.........:lol:
walmac farm, PA

$4k live foal. 2,500 for state breds.

[PaceAdvantage]

ok name 2Do you change the rules in the middle of all the games you play?

[bisket]

i actually put the laughter icon on the post but it didn't show up. i really didn't think there wasn't any horses lukas ever ran on turf. my point was alot of his preffered horses did have the capability to run on turf, but he neglected to run them on the surface. his method of running horses hard in works just doesn't jive with success on that surface. fact of the matter is lukas just wasn't much of a trainer for horses outside the ages of 2 and 3 year olds. i think he had so much success with those horses because most trainers aren't willing to train there horses as hard as he does at that age. so it gave him a big advantage.

[Grits]

walmac farm, PA

$4k live foal. 2,500 for state breds.

Toussaud, I wasn't even aware Walmac had a division in PA. I thought John TL Jones was strictly a good old Kentucky boy. :lol:

Man, he's a steal!

[toussaud]

Toussaud, I wasn't even aware Walmac had a division in PA. I thought John TL Jones was strictly a good old Kentucky boy. :lol:

Man, he's a steal!


900k in earnings, grade 2 winner. By El pradio out of a Kris S mare. 4 grand.. not bad.