1998 HOY.. [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

tzipi

11-16-2009, 05:44 PM

Awesome Again:
Undefeated with a 6 for 6 record.
2- G1's
2- G2's
Win the Breeders Cup Classic over Silver Charm(World Cup Winner),Skip Away(HOY),Coronado's Quest,Victory Gallop,Swain,Gentleman,etc.

Skip Away Wins HOY unanimously:
9- Races 7- Wins
5- G1's
1- G2
1- G3
Lost B.C Classic to Awesome Again finising 6th.
Sonny Hine forced Monmouth Park to change the Islein Handicap to 1 1/8 from a 1 1/16 to give Skip Away a better chance to win or he would'nt run, because he lost it the year before at 1 1/16. Just holds off longshot Stormin Fever by a nose.
Lost JC Gold Cup finishing 3rd to a 35-1 shot.

Fair? unfair?

bisket

11-16-2009, 06:18 PM

skippy deserved hoy that year

miesque

11-16-2009, 06:30 PM

I really should ignore this thread but this is a subject that immediately elicits snarling from my end because "them's fighting words."

Are you seriously trying to state that Awesome Again was more talented and/or accomplished and had a better resume then Skip Away?

GaryG

11-16-2009, 06:34 PM

Of course Skip Away deserved it. What is the point of this thread???

tzipi

11-16-2009, 06:34 PM

I really should ignore this thread but this is a subject that immediately elicits snarling from my end.

Are you seriously trying to state that Awesome Again was more talented and/or accomplished and had a better resume then Skip Away?

Then IGNORE the thread. I was just going back to HOY because off all the talk about it this year. NOT for any reason but to try and rememeber the recent winners and who won each year all the way to the beginning. The reason I brought this one up is because I remember Sonny Hine said he would not run Skip unless the race was changed for him. Then I realized Awesome beat him in the BC along with Silver Charm. Just thought voting would've been a little closer,that's all. Seeing what other people thought too.
Did thread say HOY BS. SKIP AWAY SHOULD'VE LOST!,etc?? No :bang:

What's the problem? Oh If someone this year or next year forces a race distance to be changed,NO ONE will have a problem? Was just asking about peoples opinions of it. Sorry,I thought I was on a racing forum about racing opinions.

miesque

11-16-2009, 07:04 PM

Then IGNORE the thread. I was just going back to HOY because off all the talk about it this year. NOT for any reason but to try and rememeber the recent winners and who won each year all the way to the beginning. The reason I brought this one up is because I remember Sonny Hine said he would not run Skip unless the race was changed for him. Then I realized Awesome beat him in the BC along with Silver Charm. Just thought voting would've been a little closer,that's all. Seeing what other people thought too.
Did thread say HOY BS. SKIP AWAY SHOULD'VE LOST!,etc?? No :bang:

What's the problem? Oh If someone this year or next year forces a race distance to be changed,NO ONE will have a problem? Was just asking about peoples opinions of it. Sorry,I thought I was on a racing forum about racing opinions.

So the point of this thread is not to denegrate Skip Away's achievements or HOY credentials and is instead merely prompting a discussion about requests to change race distances by a hores's connections? :confused: Sorry sounded to me like you were using that as one rationale why he should not have been HOY (which was lame based on the substantial edge in accomplishments he had over Awesome Again, not to mention the fact that they mapped out Skippy's schedule at the beginning of the year and said basically threw down the gauntlet and said "this is where we are going to be come and get us")

tzipi

11-16-2009, 07:21 PM

So the point of this thread is not to denegrate Skip Away's achievements or HOY credentials and is instead merely prompting a discussion about requests to change race distances by a hores's connections? :confused: Sorry sounded to me like you were using that as one rationale why he should not have been HOY (which was lame based on the substantial edge in accomplishments he had over Awesome Again, not to mention the fact that they mapped out Skippy's schedule at the beginning of the year and said basically threw down the gauntlet and said "this is where we are going to be come and get us")

Sorry,nope was just showing a side to a HOY contest that stuck with me. Did I list the races Awesome Again won and try to build them up? Nope,just listed the dominating BC race. I was just saying I thought maybe the race should've maybe been closer in votes. Did I say Skip Away should've lost..no. Asked for opinions. N, I DO NOT think A.A should've won in a landslide or maybe even won. I just thought he was so UNDERRATED that year. It's my opinion.

Anyway,I meant to put loss in JCGC above the Islein story. Then it says fair or unfair under the Iselin. Sorry,I do not think connections should have to change a distance of a race to get a advanatge for their horse. I think it's shows weakness. Should he have a automatic loss or HOY loss? NO. Was just asking for opinions. If that makes you so mad,then you do not have to answer.

miesque

11-16-2009, 07:31 PM

Sorry,nope was just showing a side to a HOY contest that stuck with me. Did I list the races Awesome Again won and try to build them up? Nope,just listed the dominating BC race. I was just saying I thought maybe the race should've maybe been closer in votes. Did I say Skip Away should've lost..no. Asked for opinions. N, I DO NOT think A.A should've won in a landslide or maybe even won. I just thought he was so UNDERRATED that year. It's my opinion.

Anyway,I meant to put loss in JCGC above the Islein story. Then it says fair or unfair under the Iselin. Sorry,I do not think connections should have to change a distance of a race to get a advanatge for their horse. I think it's shows weakness. Should he have a automatic loss or HOY loss? NO. Was just asking for opinions. If that makes you so mad,then you do not have to answer.

Well that is not how I read the question and based on the responses so far I don't think I was only one who misinterpreted your statements because I interpreted your thread as being intentionally argumentative and actively looking to stir the pot by your selective inclusion of facts. Sorry :cool:

tzipi

11-16-2009, 07:38 PM

Well that is not how I read the question and based on the responses so far I don't think I was only one who misinterpreted your statements because I interpreted your thread as being intentionally argumentative and actively looking to stir the pot by your selective inclusion of facts. Sorry :cool:

Well I could not write down Awesome Agains loses like Skippys. Because he did not lose.
I could not write down about his connections forcing a track to change a distance of a race to get an advantage. They didn't do that.

I just said he was unanimous winner of HOY and mentioned the Isein handicap thing and that he faltered at the end of year and Awesome continued to dominate even beating Skip and Charm. I thought voting should've been closer. That is all. Again i could'nt make up loses or whatever for A.A..
Sorry the thread pissed off alot people. Just ignore thread and my questions about distance changing as fair or unfair. Sorry. Close thread.

miesque

11-16-2009, 07:43 PM

Well I could not write down Awesome Agains loses like Skippys. Because he did not lose.
I could not write down about his connections forcing a track to change a distance of a race to get an advantage. They didn't do that.

I just said he was unanimous winner of HOY and mentioned the Isein handicap thing and that he faltered at the end of year and Awesome continued to dominate even beating Skip and Charm. I thought voting should've been closer. That is all. Again i could'nt make up loses or whatever for A.A..
Sorry the thread pissed off alot people. Just ignore thread and my questions about distance changing as fair or unfair. Sorry. Close thread.

You also conveniently omitted the fact that Skip Away was carrying 131 lbs in the Iselin whereas the horse that finished second (Stormin Fever) carried 113 lbs. or that he carried 130 in the Mass Cap two starts prior before heading out all the way to Hollywood Park to win the Hollywood Gold Cup or had won 9 starts in a row prior to his loss in the JCGC (9 GIs, 1 GII and 1 GIII)

tzipi

11-16-2009, 07:49 PM

Again nevermind the thread. It was just a question about HOY and should it have been closer with Skippy failing at end and AA coming on. And also should connections change distances of races to give their horses an advantage.

Yes I know the weight differences. When you face low level horses,you get weight packed on. My favorite horse of all time Cigar got that too in the Mass Cap. Again,there's no point to this thread. He was HOY and distance change not an issue,it was fine and fair to do it according to everyone. So let's close the discussion.

PaceAdvantage

11-16-2009, 10:09 PM

Pardon the interruption, but doesn't 1998 provide a wonderful example of how a horse can win the biggest race of the year against the deepest field of the year, and still RIGHTLY not get HOY honors...

I mean, come on Zenyatta supporters...this thread was like a big fat pitch down the middle of the plate for Rachel fans...

I just love precedent...

DeanT

11-16-2009, 10:24 PM

Pardon the interruption, but doesn't 1998 provide a wonderful example of how a horse can win the biggest race of the year against the deepest field of the year, and still RIGHTLY not get HOY honors...

I dunno, but it sure is nice to see a new Zenyatta-Rachel HOY thread started. I think we have not seen one since this morning :)

PaceAdvantage

11-16-2009, 10:35 PM

I dunno, but it sure is nice to see a new Zenyatta-Rachel HOY thread started. I think we have not seen one since this morning :)You gots to gos with the flows...embrace it...don't diss it...:lol:

PaceAdvantage

11-16-2009, 10:51 PM

miesque

11-16-2009, 11:09 PM

I was there and to this day the most disappointing race I have experienced in person and maybe even overall was the 1998 Breeders Cup Classic considering how good the field was. Several horses failed to run to expectation and Swain really should have won that race (Dettori is my favorite jockey but that ride was not exactly his most stellar).

TiznowfaninNY

11-16-2009, 11:21 PM

PaceAdvantage

11-16-2009, 11:25 PM

The difference, the horse who prevailed for the HOY title was actually in that field.So what you're saying is...Rachel would have STRENGTHENED her HOY case by running in the BC Classic and finishing SIXTH behind Zenyatta?

Somehow, I don't think so...but a good try nonetheless....

Next!

TiznowfaninNY

11-16-2009, 11:43 PM

So what you're saying is...Rachel would have STRENGTHENED her HOY case by running in the BC Classic and finishing SIXTH behind Zenyatta?

Somehow, I don't think so...but a good try nonetheless....

Next!

No, what I'm saying is that the merit of Skip Away's entire campaign was taken into account...

if it hadn't, then the last say would have gone to AA.

Same for Curlin, although not an exact parallel, last year. While he didn't literally go head to head with Zenyatta, he showed up on the "big day". Despite his loss, his overall body of work for the year was recognized.

PaceAdvantage

11-16-2009, 11:45 PM

So then, you and I agree that Rachel should be HOY. Good to know.

TiznowfaninNY

11-16-2009, 11:48 PM

So then, you and I agree that Rachel should be HOY. Good to know.

IMO, Zenyatta is the better horse with the best performance on the year.

I do appreciate the year RA has had. I don't think it's a no brainer one way or the other.

Now, in terms of those who actually have a vote, I don't know which faction is larger...

the ones who will hold it against RA that her connections blew off the BC, or those who have a natural east coast bias.

PaceAdvantage

11-17-2009, 12:10 AM

TiznowfaninNY

11-17-2009, 12:15 AM

I have to ask why this "East Coast" bias keeps popping up.

Jess Jackson lives in California (west coast)...
Steve Asmussen is certainly not an east coast-based trainer...
The vast majority of Rachel's races have NOT been on the east coast...

Why is there this pervasive myth that this dreaded "East Coast Bias" is going to skew all the results?

I can buy a "Synthetics revolt" more than I can buy an "East Coast bias" hurting Zenyatta's chances.

By east coast, I mean anything not CA.

Personally, being from the east coast(NY), I generally regard CA racing as inferior and can't stand the synthetic stuff.

Synthetics revolt may be more accurate in this case. That could be. And I also think that there will be a segment of voters who resent Jackson for not running RA on the biggest day. So, irrespective of what my opinion actually may be vs. yours on who should win, I think they each have a certain block of automatic votes based on these issues.

ghostyapper

11-17-2009, 07:17 AM

Seriously though...this 1998 BC Classic really brings up a problem for the Zenyatta HOY fans....

This 1998 field has to be considered one of the deepest if not THE DEEPEST BC Classic EVER...

Silver Charm
Skip Away
Touch Gold
Gentlemen
Victory Gallop
Coronado's Quest
Swain

Major, major talent there...and Awesome Again (undefeated that year) beats them all by about the same margin as Zenyatta won her BC Classic...

And yet, the voters got it right and gave HOY to Skip Away...

Your whole thing this year has been that what rachel has done is historic and that historic factor must be considered in hoy. Yet you refuse to give zenyatta the same benefit only comparing her to other breeders cup winners when she became the FIRST mare to EVER win the breeders cup classic. Cleary this historic factor is entirely different then what awesome again accomplished that year

And the pundits continue to tell us how synthetics play like turf. Yet they want to compare margins of victory to dirt when margins on turf are historically smaller. Convenient.

FenceBored

11-17-2009, 08:14 AM

Your whole thing this year has been that what rachel has done is historic and that historic factor must be considered in hoy. Yet you refuse to give zenyatta the same benefit only comparing her to other breeders cup winners when she became the FIRST mare to EVER win the breeders cup classic. Cleary this historic factor is entirely different then what awesome again accomplished that year

And why do you refuse to admit that people can factor in the historic nature of Zenyatta's victory and still see Rachel's overall year as greater than Zenyatta's year?

Valuist

11-17-2009, 08:15 AM

Want an unjust HOY? How about Criminal Type winning in 1990 over Unbridled. What did Unbridled win that year: not JUST the Breeders Cup Classic but the KY Derby and the Florida Derby as well as runnerup finishes in the Preakness, Blue Grass and Super Derby.

ghostyapper

11-17-2009, 09:20 AM

And why do you refuse to admit that people can factor in the historic nature of Zenyatta's victory and still see Rachel's overall year as greater than Zenyatta's year?

Pace did not factor it in. He was comparing zenyatta to awesome again. :confused:

Bochall

11-17-2009, 10:42 AM

Tom

11-17-2009, 10:49 AM

Extra! Extra!
Read all about it!
Nothing NEW today!
Same old same old!

GaryG

11-17-2009, 10:54 AM

Thank you PA!! It only took until post #12 for the real meaning behind this thread to come out.....Zen v Rachel....again....on the 5th or 6th different thread....growing tired.....getting....weak....cannot continue....give it a rest.I saw this at the beginning. That's why I asked what the point of the thread was. Surprised it took the yapper so long to start yapping. Another thread ready to be shut down.

FenceBored

11-17-2009, 11:31 AM

Pace did not factor it in. He was comparing zenyatta to awesome again. :confused:

And every comparison has to start with a disclaimer saying that 'Zenyatta's win in the Classic was a historic achievement whose value is factored into whatever argument follows?' :confused:

Moyers Pond in the initial post of his "Clearly Giving Rachel Alexandra HOY would send wrong message to sport" thread said:

Clearly any undefeated campaign that culminates in a win in the BC Classic is a lock for HOY. Not really a discussion. -- #1 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=781935&postcount=1)

And in the "Enough already ... HOY!" thread we find:

Undefeated BC Classic winner means HOY. Pretty simple. --#147 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=782092&postcount=147)

The argument was advanced, without special mention of the historic nature of Zenyatta's Classic victory, that an undefeated BC Classic winner is/should be a lock for HOY. That such a horse has never been denied HOY and it would be a travesty to do so. Clearly that is not the case given the example of Awesome Again. The voters looked at the totality of the years efforts and went another way. That year it didn't include the historic nature of anyone's victories. This year it does. Once again we need to look at more than the BC Classic victory (while always remembering to factor in its historic nature). Why are you afraid to do that? Because you know that Zenyatta's other races can't stand up to the scrutiny.

Next you'll deflect and say my line of logic makes no sense. :sleeping:

ghostyapper

11-17-2009, 12:06 PM

And every comparison has to start with a disclaimer saying that 'Zenyatta's win in the Classic was a historic achievement whose value is factored into whatever argument follows?' :confused:

Moyers Pond in the initial post of his "Clearly Giving Rachel Alexandra HOY would send wrong message to sport" thread said:

And in the "Enough already ... HOY!" thread we find:

The argument was advanced, without special mention of the historic nature of Zenyatta's Classic victory, that an undefeated BC Classic winner is/should be a lock for HOY. That such a horse has never been denied HOY and it would be a travesty to do so. Clearly that is not the case given the example of Awesome Again. The voters looked at the totality of the years efforts and went another way. That year it didn't include the historic nature of anyone's victories. This year it does. Once again we need to look at more than the BC Classic victory (while always remembering to factor in its historic nature). Why are you afraid to do that? Because you know that Zenyatta's other races can't stand up to the scrutiny.

Next you'll deflect and say my line of logic makes no sense. :sleeping:

So I should say your logic makes sense? :bang: I was responding to pace about HIS OPINION with regards to comparing Awesome Again's bc win to zenyatta's historic one because he has constantly reminded us all year how everything rachel has done is historic, which is more impressive than a male doing it. You respond by quoting Moyers pond :confused:

Yup that logic is on point.

FenceBored

11-17-2009, 01:32 PM

So I should say your logic makes sense? :bang: I was responding to pace about HIS OPINION with regards to comparing Awesome Again's bc win to zenyatta's historic one because he has constantly reminded us all year how everything rachel has done is historic, which is more impressive than a male doing it. You respond by quoting Moyers pond :confused:

Yup that logic is on point.

:lol: You're so predictable.

You say that's its not about just the historic BC victory of Zenyatta, but that's all you want to focus on. If someone wants to talk about undefeated BC Classic winners more generally and note whether that makes HOY for such a horse a certainty, nope not allowed. I guess you think the historic nature of Zenyatta's victory makes all such comparisons impossible. Note, this is something that no Rachel supporter on this board has tried with the Woodward. The historic nature in that case was a plus, but comparisons between this years Woodward and other Woodwards have been debated numerous times since September 5th by me, PA, and others.

Tzipi original post in this thread is, knowingly or unknowingly, a direct response to Moyers Pond's insistence that an undefeated BC Classic winner must be HOY. That was the point PA is responding to. You are the one who's off point with your insistence that everyone genuflect to your strawman whenever you shake him in their face.

ghostyapper

11-17-2009, 01:49 PM

Note, this is something that no Rachel supporter on this board has tried with the Woodward. The historic nature in that case was a plus, but comparisons between this years Woodward and other Woodwards have been debated numerous times since September 5th by me, PA, and others.

You really are delusional here. We've heard ad nauseum how rachel was the first filly ever to win the woodward. The rachel supporters only started comparing it to previous fields after I forced them to by bringing them up as proof how weak this year's running was. Before that it was just described as "breathtaking, historic," and insert over the top adjective.

I understand you want to fight for every single rachel supporter, which is commendable (or pathetic). But you need to understand an argument before you can enter it and you CLEARLY don't understand this one. So go back to debating with moyer's pond if you like because you seem to be obsessed with his thoughts and opinions since you bring them up in every thread.

FenceBored

11-17-2009, 04:33 PM

You really are delusional here. We've heard ad nauseum how rachel was the first filly ever to win the woodward. The rachel supporters only started comparing it to previous fields after I forced them to by bringing them up as proof how weak this year's running was. Before that it was just described as "breathtaking, historic," and insert over the top adjective.

I understand you want to fight for every single rachel supporter, which is commendable (or pathetic). But you need to understand an argument before you can enter it and you CLEARLY don't understand this one. So go back to debating with moyer's pond if you like because you seem to be obsessed with his thoughts and opinions since you bring them up in every thread.

You're saying that you're just trying to be obnoxious and otherwise don't have anything worthwhile to add? I really do understand that already. I was just trying to be polite and pretend you might have a serious point.

PaceAdvantage

11-18-2009, 01:29 AM

Your whole thing this year has been that what rachel has done is historic and that historic factor must be considered in hoy.Really? I wrote that? I don't know why...it's entirely unnecessary....

PaceAdvantage

11-18-2009, 01:34 AM

Pace did not factor it in. He was comparing zenyatta to awesome again. :confused:Actually, all I was doing was making a helluva point that there is precedent for denying HOY to a runner who goes undefeated while winning the BC Classic against one of the toughest fields ever assembled for that race.

The kicker being that Skip Away, the eventual HOY in 1998, finished a well beaten sixth in the BC Classic...