Mine That Bird For 3yo Champ!

[FenceBored]

I think Mine That Bird should get the Eclipse for 3 year old colts. He won the championship race, the Kentucky Derby. Summer Bird didn't get it done when it mattered, so what he's done since doesn't count. Slam dunk. No brainer.

[Tom]

Correct. No brainer.

Summer Bird. End of story.
This one race thing it ludicrous. The awards are for the entire year.

[jballscalls]

I think Mine That Bird should get the Eclipse for 3 year old colts. He won the championship race, the Kentucky Derby. Summer Bird didn't get it done when it mattered, so what he's done since doesn't count. Slam dunk. No brainer.

I think it's a no brainer, just the other way. You say Summer Bird didn't get it done when it mattered, the Belmont and Travers don't matter?? also when did the Ky Derby become the championship race? most prestigious and important for 3 year olds yes, but it isn't the decider for the whole year. Summer Bird whooped him twice, once in the Belmont and once in the classic. MTB got a perfect trip in the derby and Summer Bird was 84 paths wide.

[joanied]

I adore the little gelding, but IMO, Summer Bird should get it...his 3 major wins are something not done often...and I think the voters will chalk MBT's Derby win up as a fluke, because he just didn't do anything more after that.

[Steve R]

I think Mine That Bird should get the Eclipse for 3 year old colts. He won the championship race, the Kentucky Derby. Summer Bird didn't get it done when it mattered, so what he's done since doesn't count. Slam dunk. No brainer.
Satire is often misunderstood, isn't it?

[TiznowfaninNY]

Ummm...


I assume this is a sarcastic thread by a supporter of Rachel over Zenyatta.

Summer Bird is obviously 3yo champ, although with MTB having vindicated his Derby win somewhat with his Preakness performance, he didn't have to do much from that point on with a head start like that...

but he just disappeared.

[Show Me the Wire]

Do I detect some sarcasm FenceBored? :D

Ought oh we all posted near the same time. :eek:

[ghostyapper]

This attempt at flaming the zenyatta over ra debate is so lame it's not even funny.

Did MTB go undefeated this year?? Did MTB win 3 other G1 races in addition to the "championship" race.

Mod's if you are consistent you will delete/lock this thread as it is CLEARY nothing more than "flame bait"

[FenceBored]

This attempt at flaming the zenyatta over ra debate is so lame it's not even funny.

Did MTB go undefeated this year?? Did MTB win 3 other G1 races in addition to the "championship" race.

Mod's if you are consistent you will delete/lock this thread as it is CLEARY nothing more than "flame bait"

No, it's called argument by analogy. One argument that we've been hearing over and over and over and over, is that the BC is THE CHAMPIONSHIP, and that since Zenyatta won THE CHAMPIONSHIP she is by that fact alone HOY. This argument is flawed, and the original post of this thread demonstrates this flaw by applying the argument to another Eclipse category which does not have its own BC race, but does have a race considered to be THE race for that division.

[GaryG]

How many threads do y'all need to carry on this never ending RA- Z debate? This is getting childish and that is being kind.

[ghostyapper]

No, it's called argument by analogy. One argument that we've been hearing over and over and over and over, is that the BC is THE CHAMPIONSHIP, and that since Zenyatta won THE CHAMPIONSHIP she is by that fact alone HOY. This argument is flawed, and the original post of this thread demonstrates this flaw by applying the argument to another Eclipse category which does not have its own BC race, but does have a race considered to be THE race for that division.

Ridiculous and immature conclusion by you. Her winning the BC is 1 aspect as to why she should win HOY. Had twice over or Girolamo won the BC nobody would be saying they should be HOY.

There goes that stupid theory. Like I said nothing more than flame bait. Lock it up

[Steve R]

Steve Crist advocates changing the present rules to accommodate a joint award because the accomplishments of both the filly and the mare were so extraordinary and can not be fairly or objectively compared. The multitude of threads on this board have more than adequately addressed the reasons why. Sounds good to me if only to remove the rancor from the debate. After all, it's only a damned trophy and before you know it, no one will care.

[Dahoss9698]

Ridiculous and immature conclusion by you. Her winning the BC is 1 aspect as to why she should win HOY. Had twice over or Girolamo won the BC nobody would be saying they should be HOY.

There goes that stupid theory. Like I said nothing more than flame bait. Lock it up

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8237/dawsoncrying.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/i/dawsoncrying.jpg/)

[strapper]

Any shot Mine That Bird would've had he would've had to finish ahead of Summer Bird in the BC Classic. It's Summer Bird in a landslide. Not to say that I don't have admiration for the gutsy MTB. His Ky. Derby win will be forever etched in my memory banks for the most daring stretch run ever!

[WinterTriangle]

Isn't the Kentucky Derby "the" most important race in America.......on real dirt?

I always thought it was. So does everyone else in the world.

You know, mint juleps, ranks first in North America in attendance, what made Secretariat famous, etc.

[toetoe]

I think Mine That Bird should get the Eclipse for 3 year old colts. He won the championship race, the Kentucky Derby. Summer Bird didn't get it done when it mattered, so what he's done since doesn't count. Slam dunk. No brainer.


Above is my nominee for Most Flamboyant Post of 2009. :jump: .

[Tom]

How many threads do y'all need to carry on this never ending RA- Z debate? This is getting childish and that is being kind.

Keep starting threads until you find someone to agree with you. And keep mis-stating the facts of other people's opinions to boot. As if HOY was going to put money in anyone's pockets here. IMO, it is Zenny for HOY, but not for the self-serving reasons Fence listes here. :ThmbDown:

[Bochall]

The analogy that Fence is using btw MTB winning the most important race in the Derby and Zen winning the other most important race is flawed. MTB only won one fargin race this year while Rachel and Zen went undefeated. The idea that he should win over Summer Bird is not the same angle as Zen winning over Rachel. Their vote will be closer than the MTB/Summer Bird vote. I see the point you are trying to prove, but this analogy stinks dude.

[PaceAdvantage]

Mod's if you are consistent you will delete/lock this thread as it is CLEARY nothing more than "flame bait"I've been steering this ship for 10 years now...I think me and the mods have got things down pretty good...but thanks for the advice nonetheless....

[FenceBored]

Ridiculous and immature conclusion by you. Her winning the BC is 1 aspect as to why she should win HOY. Had twice over or Girolamo won the BC nobody would be saying they should be HOY.

There goes that stupid theory. Like I said nothing more than flame bait. Lock it up

Which just illustrates the absurdity of those who claim that the Classic is the neutron star of horseracing, bending the fabric of space around it like the blanket of flowers which adorns its winner.

Thank you for making my point.

"But Zenyatta won the CLASSIC," is not in and of itself enough to warrant HOY. Now, what else ya got? The more I look at the rest of Zenyatta's campaign, the more I think that, as far as what's expected of older horses goes, Gio Ponti has a stronger claim for HOY than she does. The fields he faced were stronger by far than the fields Zenyatta faced in her G1s.

You used to support Gio Ponti's candidacy. What happened? Oh right, you're only concerned with opposing "the Filly Who's Faster than Ghostzapper." :D

[FenceBored]

Keep starting threads until you find someone to agree with you. And keep mis-stating the facts of other people's opinions to boot. As if HOY was going to put money in anyone's pockets here. IMO, it is Zenny for HOY, but not for the self-serving reasons Fence listes here. :ThmbDown:

Tom, who's opinions did I misstate? There are a broad range of Zenyatta supporters, as there are for any other candidate for an Eclipse award. You can't deny that there have been people on this board for months saying that the BC is what matters, and Rachel should have not shot at HOY because she wasn't going to/didn't run in it. And the most extreme of those are the "BC is the Super Bowl, so Zenyatta is champ" crowd.

I welcome a serious debate on the merits of a variety of candidates for HOY. Heck, I'm sure there are some Summer Bird supporters who will be changing their tunes if he were to win the Japan Cup Dirt, so let's keep him in the mix.

And the "keep starting threads" charge, oy. Do you want to compare my started thread count on this subject (1) with Moyer's Pond? The site's spam filter should have kicked in by now. :bang:

[FenceBored]

The analogy that Fence is using btw MTB winning the most important race in the Derby and Zen winning the other most important race is flawed. MTB only won one fargin race this year while Rachel and Zen went undefeated. The idea that he should win over Summer Bird is not the same angle as Zen winning over Rachel. Their vote will be closer than the MTB/Summer Bird vote. I see the point you are trying to prove, but this analogy stinks dude.

The analogy holds up perfectly in the case of those, and don't deny they're out there, who think the BC Classic trumps everything else. If you think the result I reached in the original post is absurd that's because it is, just llike the "Zenyatta won the Super Bowl" garbage. Now let's get serious and compare full campaigns and ALL the races that made them up.

[Bochall]

The analogy holds up perfectly in the case of those, and don't deny they're out there, who think the BC Classic trumps everything else. If you think the result I reached in the original post is absurd that's because it is, just llike the "Zenyatta won the Super Bowl" garbage. Now let's get serious and compare full campaigns and ALL the races that made them up. No, the analogy does not hold up because Zen had a fine campaign to go along with winning the big race whereas MTB's ONLY WIN WAS THE BIG RACE. When you use absolute absurdity to make a point the only point you make is that you are absurd....and STILL beating this Zen v Rachel HOTY topic.

[ghostyapper]

Which just illustrates the absurdity of those who claim that the Classic is the neutron star of horseracing, bending the fabric of space around it like the blanket of flowers which adorns its winner.

Thank you for making my point.

"But Zenyatta won the CLASSIC," is not in and of itself enough to warrant HOY. Now, what else ya got? The more I look at the rest of Zenyatta's campaign, the more I think that, as far as what's expected of older horses goes, Gio Ponti has a stronger claim for HOY than she does. The fields he faced were stronger by far than the fields Zenyatta faced in her G1s.

You used to support Gio Ponti's candidacy. What happened? Oh right, you're only concerned with opposing "the Filly Who's Faster than Ghostzapper." :D


Who's quote is that? Certainly not mine. Wanna make some more stuff up?

[ghostyapper]

The analogy holds up perfectly in the case of those, and don't deny they're out there, who think the BC Classic trumps everything else. If you think the result I reached in the original post is absurd that's because it is, just llike the "Zenyatta won the Super Bowl" garbage. Now let's get serious and compare full campaigns and ALL the races that made them up.

The analogy would hold up if giralomo or twice over won the bc and people were campaigning them for hoy. This situation is entirely different and you know it but refuse to acknowledge.

Before we can have a serious discussion about HOY the rachel fanboys must admit that zenyatta won the single biggest race by either horse and beat the best field. They want to treat the bc as just another g1 which it isn't. That is obvious to everyone but them.

Of course they won't even admit that saying the woodward was at least as equally as good a performance. Insanity.

[tucker6]

You used to support Gio Ponti's candidacy. What happened? Oh right, you're only concerned with opposing "the Filly Who's Faster than Ghostzapper." :D
Hammer meet nail. I noted that he didn't dispute this statement in his response to you.

[FenceBored]

No, the analogy does not hold up because Zen had a fine campaign to go along with winning the big race whereas MTB's ONLY WIN WAS THE BIG RACE. When you use absolute absurdity to make a point the only point you make is that you are absurd....and STILL beating this Zen v Rachel HOTY topic.

A "fine campaign?" Name one horse (apart from her stablemate Life is Sweet) in any of her pre-BC races who has won a graded stake this year?

Tick, tick, tick.

Time's up. There aren't any. Not before they faced her, not after they faced her. Now that's what I call high class competition. Every G1 Rachel ran had at least two other horses who have won a graded stake this year.

Gio Ponti seems a stronger candidate to carry the banner of older horses in the HOY debate. He, at least, faced graded stakes company in his non-BC G1s. And one could argue that the surface was a factor in his two 2nds, i.e. he ran well, but not his best.

[FenceBored]

Who's quote is that? Certainly not mine. Wanna make some more stuff up?

Have you ever noticed that when I quote a specific user, I use the funky quote tags, and not just quotemarks? Well, I do, therefore I was not saying that you said that. Add that strawman to your growing collection.

[tucker6]

No, the analogy does not hold up because Zen had a fine campaign to go along with winning the big race whereas MTB's ONLY WIN WAS THE BIG RACE.
Without putting words in Fence's mouth, I think he rightly is saying that Zenyatta beating up on tomato cans is equal to MTB doing nothing. Zenyatta winning the first four of her races in 2009 earns a :sleeping: .

The other commonality is that they both won the most prestigious race in their divisions. So, if Zenyatta can be HOY, why can't MTB??

[Bochall]

Settle down Fence. A 'fine campaign' meant she was undefeated...wouldnt you call that a 'fine' campaign? Notice i didnt say stellar or great because it wasnt. I am no Zen lover and my vote for HOTY goes to Rachel, but Zen had a 'fine' year, wouldnt you agree? I think most Zen fans are granting her a lifetime achievement award more than a HOTY award. Hell, they still cite the Apple Blossom when talking her up for HOTY...what year was that race in? We are both on the same side of this issue. I just thought your original analogy was lacking, thats all.:ThmbUp:

[Zenyatta To Crush]

A "fine campaign?" Name one horse (apart from her stablemate Life is Sweet) in any of her pre-BC races who has won a graded stake this year?

Tick, tick, tick.

Time's up. There aren't any. Not before they faced her, not after they faced her. Now that's what I call high class competition. Every G1 Rachel ran had at least two other horses who have won a graded stake this year.

Gio Ponti seems a stronger candidate to carry the banner of older horses in the HOY debate. He, at least, faced graded stakes company in his non-BC G1s. And one could argue that the surface was a factor in his two 2nds, i.e. he ran well, but not his best.

I think it might be more impressive that Zenyatta was able to easily defeat Life Is Sweet on 3 separate occasions rather than Rachel beating up on mediocre graded stakes winners like Gabby's Golden Gal and Flashover. Life Is Sweet at least proved she can beat the best older females.

How many graded winners did Zenyatta just beat in the Classic? A lot. The field she beat was much, much, much more difficult than any race Rachel has run in this year.

I think Zenyatta is a little bit better horse than Rachel, but the best horse doesn't always win HOY and I believe they'll give it to Rachel in a close one.

[FenceBored]

The analogy would hold up if giralomo or twice over won the bc and people were campaigning them for hoy. This situation is entirely different and you know it but refuse to acknowledge.

Before we can have a serious discussion about HOY the rachel fanboys must admit that zenyatta won the single biggest race by either horse and beat the best field. They want to treat the bc as just another g1 which it isn't. That is obvious to everyone but them.

Of course they won't even admit that saying the woodward was at least as equally as good a performance. Insanity.

Ah, more strawmen. I've already said that, on paper, the BC field was stronger than the Woodward field. So what?

I would suppose you'd call me a Rachel fanatic and I agree that the BC field on paper was stronger than the Woodward field.
... -- Giving Rachel Alexandra HOY would send ... #165 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=784501&postcount=165)
I've already said that the BC should carry more weight than a normal G1.

...
If you say that the BC is not only a tie breaker, not only twice as important as a regular G1, but four or five times as important, then you're, in effect, saying that the rest of the year is only a prelude, jockeying for position in the BC starting gate. I think it's possible to see the BC as more important than any other individual racing event in the US without trying to make it so important that nothing else much matters. -- Zenyatta!!! #40 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=782570&postcount=40)
Now, impressiveness is more subjective. I find Zenyatta impressive. I think her winning the Classic is impressive. But, I find the lunatic way Rachel won the Woodward more impressive. Your mileage certainly varies.

However, I have never said, nor will I ever say, that the Woodward as a stand alone race warrants the HOY Eclipse. I have consistently said HOY is a total campaign award and am preparing my arguments based on that.

If you feel so insecure about Zenyatta's campaign that you have to try and reduce Rachel's campaign to the Woodward, that's your problem.

[FenceBored]

Settle down Fence. A 'fine campaign' meant she was undefeated...wouldnt you call that a 'fine' campaign? Notice i didnt say stellar or great because it wasnt. I am no Zen lover and my vote for HOTY goes to Rachel, but Zen had a 'fine' year, wouldnt you agree? I think most Zen fans are granting her a lifetime achievement award more than a HOTY award. Hell, they still cite the Apple Blossom when talking her up for HOTY...what year was that race in? We are both on the same side of this issue. I just thought your original analogy was lacking, thats all.:ThmbUp:

Sorry. :blush:

[ghostyapper]

I think he rightly is saying that Zenyatta beating up on tomato cans is equal to MTB doing nothing. Zenyatta winning the first four of her races in 2009 earns a :sleeping: .


Seriously how can anyone have a serious conversation with a mind like this? A horse going undefeated winning 3 G1's and a G2 is equal to another horse that doesn't win any race??

I rest my case.

[ghostyapper]

Ah, more strawmen. I've already said that, on paper, the BC field was stronger than the Woodward field. So what?
-- Giving Rachel Alexandra HOY would send ... #165 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=784501&postcount=165)
I've already said that the BC should carry more weight than a normal G1.
-- Zenyatta!!! #40 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=782570&postcount=40)
Now, impressiveness is more subjective. I find Zenyatta impressive. I think her winning the Classic is impressive. But, I find the lunatic way Rachel won the Woodward more impressive. Your mileage certainly varies.

However, I have never said, nor will I ever say, that the Woodward as a stand alone race warrants the HOY Eclipse. I have consistently said HOY is a total campaign award and am preparing my arguments based on that.

If you feel so insecure about Zenyatta's campaign that you have to try and reduce Rachel's campaign to the Woodward, that's your problem.

You are really making no sense now. You come up with a make believe quote about how winning the bc should earn you hoy automatically then you claim how you have said the bc was a better race than the woodward. Yet you ignore how many of your fellow rachel lunatics have gone on record as saying winning the bc classic was no more impressive than rachel winning the woodward.

This thread has been doomed from the beginning and you are only making it worse. Your line of logic makes absolutely no sense. Just let it go already.

[Cat Thief]

Yes the Z and R debate is getting ridiculous. Can't even read a new thread without something in it about them. Pleeeez cool it.

[Cat Thief]

Fence you are just tryin to be funny. Although I like the little horse he hasn't done enough but I think he will be okay running in a little bit lesser company

[FenceBored]

You are really making no sense now. You come up with a make believe quote about how winning the bc should earn you hoy automatically then you claim how you have said the bc was a better race than the woodward. Yet you ignore how many of your fellow rachel lunatics have gone on record as saying winning the bc classic was no more impressive than rachel winning the woodward.

This thread has been doomed from the beginning and you are only making it worse. Your line of logic makes absolutely no sense. Just let it go already.

You tell me that debate isn't possible with people who hold certain positions. Then you get bent out of shape because I show you that I'm on record as not holding those positions, and saying there's no debating me, and I don't make sense? :lol:

[Space Monkey]

One of this boards poorer threads. Mine That Bird is a nice colt, but he caught the "trip" of a lifetime the first Sat in May. His races since have proven that he is no superstar. He'll be a good small track minor stakes horse. I agree with ghost. This thread started off stumbling out of the gate and is being pulled up on the backstretch. DNF!!

[Steve R]

Satire is obviously lost on people who don't know it even when it slaps them upside the head. This thread is not at all about Mine That Bird's qualifications for HotY. It addresses the notion proposed by many people on this board that winning the BC Classic is effectively winning the "championship". To those people, Zenyatta showed up and won the race while Rachel Alexandra didn't show up at all. Ergo, Zenyatta is HotY. End of argument.

Obviously Mine That Bird is not a HotY contender, but he did win the most important race for three-year-olds and arguably one of the three most prestigious races on the planet. That clearly wasn't enough. On the other side, Rachel Alexandra's fans would argue that apart from the BC Classic, Zenyatta didn't really do enough either. I believe that opinion may be based on the fact that she faced only one Grade 1 winner in all of her 2009 starts prior to the BC, at least that's what I think I read in this ocean of Z vs RA posts. I don't know if she did enough or not in those four races, but I can tell you this. Unbridled lost HotY to Criminal Type even though he won both the Derby AND the BC Classic that year. It doesn't get any more "championship" than that. Obviously in those days, voters considered the season more important than any one or two races. Maybe that's not the way it is now.

I'm with Steve Crist on this one. Give it to both of them and just move on to next year so we can renew the dirt vs rubber battle with a new cast of characters.

[Space Monkey]

Satire is obviously lost on people who don't know it even when it slaps them upside the head.

As someone who uses satire/sarcasm a lot in debate, I learned a long time ago that it doesn't work most of the time on message boards. To get your point across it usually involves a different tone of voice, certain mannerisms, etc, so the recipient understands that you are conveying a contrary message.

Obviously, you Steve, can see through the computer and be able to distinguish a dumb ass from a satirical genius. If I have any doubts about the true meaning of future posts I will be sure to consult you first :rolleyes: