What is more natural, running on synthetics or running around in a circle?

[Moyers Pond]

I prefer dirt to synthetic, but I am not a whiner like many here. However, I actually think running around a circle on dirt is just as unnatural as running on a synthetic.

For all of those that have a problem with synthetic because it is "unnatural", can you explain to me how natural it is for horses to live in stalls 23 hours a day and run around in a circle over dirt.

How exactly do you justify that if you are so concerned with "unnatural" things like a synthetic track?

How about all those "natural" drugs in American racing.

Please explain, or is it just you like "natural" things as long as they are something you prefer?

[Show Me the Wire]

You are not going to hear any disagreeing from me.

[Steve R]

I prefer dirt to synthetic, but I am not a whiner like many here. However, I actually think running around a circle on dirt is just as unnatural as running on a synthetic.

For all of those that have a problem with synthetic because it is "unnatural", can you explain to me how natural it is for horses to live in stalls 23 hours a day and run around in a circle over dirt.

How exactly do you justify that if you are so concerned with "unnatural" things like a synthetic track?

How about all those "natural" drugs in American racing.

Please explain, or is it just you like "natural" things as long as they are something you prefer?
Where do you rank running around a circle on synthetics?

Eliminate the issue by dropping both dirt and synthetics in favor of what most of the world runs on, grass. It's safer, would reduce the number of racing venues and racing dates and it would encourage breeding for more stamina. Eliminate all race day medications and ban for life anyone who violates that rule. Too radical or not natural enough? Probably only for Americans who like that NASCAR oval feeling and don't worry too much about the welfare of horses. And don't let the AWS promoters fool you. It had little to do with safety because they had no reliable data on which to base that claim. I'm still waiting for the toxicology reports on Pro-Ride from the manufacturer. It was only about potential profit from savings on maintenance and more racing dates. It seems that has backfired as well. As it is, justifying the third surface is a pointless exercise. Those who do well on it will accept it and those who don't won't. No big deal. We've gotten along for decades with turf horses mostly staying on turf and dirt horses mostly staying on dirt. Now there is the opportunity to stay away from two surfaces. That's progress.

[Show Me the Wire]

Moyers Pond did state his postion that the only natural surface is grass on another thread.

[Tom]

Moyers Pond did state his postion that the only natural surface is grass on another thread.

OK, so it natural for them to run around in circles with little people on their backs?

NOTHING about racing is natural to the horse. The idea of a natural surface is based in the fact that is not GOOD for horse to run on un-natural surfaces.

[joanied]

For me, besides the drug thing...the most un natural thing is keeping horses in a stall 22-23 hours a day:ThmbDown:

[Steve R]

OK, so it natural for them to run around in circles with little people on their backs?

NOTHING about racing is natural to the horse. The idea of a natural surface is based in the fact that is not GOOD for horse to run on un-natural surfaces.
It's not "natural" for humans to wear clothes, but we do. Horses have been ridden since they were domesticated, which according to the evidence could be as far back as 6,000 years ago. That's natural enough for me.

Frankly, naturalness is not the issue. Horses ran on desert sand for thousands of years. The issue is whether synthetics make a substantive contribution to enhance the sport. So far they don't appear to have justified their claims of safety and economy, but they have created a deepening rift within the racing community. That development is not a good thing at all.

[toussaud]

the only natural thing for a horse to do is to run on the downhill course at the great race place. with larry jones on their back.

[Show Me the Wire]

The issue is whether synthetics make a substantive contribution to enhance the sport. So far they don't appear to have justified their claims of safety and economy, but they have created a deepening rift within the racing community. That development is not a good thing at all.

I agree with that statement about the rift. But is the rift justified?

The only objection some posters have is it makes their previous methodof handicapping ineffective. Is that really a valid objection for everyone? Not really because favorites are winning at higher percentage than the national average.

Anther objection is turf horses have an afinity for the surface. Actually, I think that is good for racing as more horses can compete on the maintrack and not be limited to grass.

Maybe the only real objection is it diminishes early speed. Again, this may be good. Breeders can breed for more stamina and be econimically rewarded.

[toussaud]

it makes more than handicapping inefective. it makes the derby trail west of the mississippi ineffective as well as well.

it makes races like the big cap, the paifiic classic and gold cup state bred races.

it effects a heck of alot more than handicapping

handicapping my gripe isnt' the surface as much as it is the field size. ic an deal with the surface. i won't bother with 3 horse fields.


but it's taking away alot of the prestige that was socal racing.

when i was like 12 i would look forward to watcvhing this week at santa anita and it would always be this headline event. jewel princess, gentleman, serena's song.

now you have horses that can't even win claiming crowns winning breeders cup

that's my concern.

[Show Me the Wire]

it makes more than handicapping inefective. it makes the derby trail west of the mississippi ineffective as well as well.

it makes races like the big cap, the paifiic classic and gold cup state bred races.

it effects a heck of alot more than handicapping

handicapping my gripe isnt' the surface as much as it is the field size. ic an deal with the surface. i won't bother with 3 horse fields.


but it's taking away alot of the prestige that was socal racing.

when i was like 12 i would look forward to watcvhing this week at santa anita and it would always be this headline event. jewel princess, gentleman, serena's song.

now you have horses that can't even win claiming crowns winning breeders cup

that's my concern.


Ah a more plausable objection relating how it hurts So Cal racing in the overall picture of racing. Not sure yet if what you say is true, but your objection is based on more realistic grounds.

[Steve R]

I agree with that statement about the rift. But is the rift justified?

The only objection some posters have is it makes their previous methodof handicapping ineffective. Is that really a valid objection for everyone? Not really because favorites are winning at higher percentage than the national average.

Anther objection is turf horses have an afinity for the surface. Actually, I think that is good for racing as more horses can compete on the maintrack and not be limited to grass.

Maybe the only real objection is it diminishes early speed. Again, this may be good. Breeders can breed for more stamina and be econimically rewarded.
The point I was trying to make is that synthetics don't really contribute anything to the game. OK, synthetics diminish early speed and flatter turf horses. Fine, horses not suited to the speed demands of dirt and which perhaps are bred for grass can compete on turf now. That surface already encourages stamina breeding, so let's have more of it. Why is there the need for a hybrid surface that creates a separation not only between turf and dirt but between dirt and AWSs as well? What can it possibly accomplish other than keep a lot of good horses apart? Do you think Careless Jewel will race on synthetics again? Would it be a good thing that she and Rachel Alexandra probably will never meet SoCal's top fillies and mares next year on even terms? The original premise upon which synthetics were based has not been fulfilled nor even proven. The antagonism they have created is much too damaging to an industry that is already fighting for survival.

[WinterTriangle]

running around a circle on dirt is just as unnatural CHECK!

live in stalls 23 hours a day CHECK!

How about all those "natural" drugs in American racing CHECK!.

Please explain

All the things you mentioned affect the horses (which of course, affects handicappers, but indirectly). Many people don't "truly" care about stuff that doesn't directly affect them. Some do.

Do what's right for the horse, and racing will improve. That's about the most bottom line there is.

[PaceAdvantage]

Forget about natural, unnatural, circles, ovals, squares, triangles...

The question should be:

Are synthetic racetracks in the United States even remotely necessary?

[toussaud]

Forget about natural, unnatural, circles, ovals, squares, triangles...

The question should be:

Are synthetic racetracks in the United States even remotely necessary?

no. there should be no horse racing in freaking janurary in kentucky anyway.

[gm10]

I prefer dirt to synthetic, but I am not a whiner like many here. However, I actually think running around a circle on dirt is just as unnatural as running on a synthetic.

For all of those that have a problem with synthetic because it is "unnatural", can you explain to me how natural it is for horses to live in stalls 23 hours a day and run around in a circle over dirt.

How exactly do you justify that if you are so concerned with "unnatural" things like a synthetic track?

How about all those "natural" drugs in American racing.

Please explain, or is it just you like "natural" things as long as they are something you prefer?

I think people confuse what is natural to them with what is natural to the horses. Running on a dirt track is definitely not the activity that Evolution prepared the thoroughbred for.

[FenceBored]

I think people confuse what is natural to them with what is natural to the horses. Running on a dirt track is definitely not the activity that Evolution prepared the thoroughbred for.

Seems to me that prior to the advent of the automobile that most roads were dirt. The Oregon Trail - dirt. The rural British highways - dirt. The streets in every settlement up to the size of a small city - dirt. Horses, as modified by human domestication and breeding, are exceptionally prepared to handle dirt at any gait.

[Charlie D]

Seems to me that prior to the advent of the automobile that most roads were dirt. The Oregon Trail - dirt. The rural British highways - dirt. The streets in every settlement up to the size of a small city - dirt. Horses, as modified by human domestication and breeding, are exceptionally prepared to handle dirt at any gait.




Could that be because Thoroughbred forefathers came from places that are better known for Sand rather than lush feilds of grass.

[Charlie D]

The oldest racecourse still being used in Britain can be seen here http://www.chesterwalls.info/gallery/oldmaps/buck1.html

[illinoisbred]

Racehorses in stalls for24/7 has always bothered me. The sheer boredom of such existence must surely eventually affect performance. Here in Illinois, most average stock never leaves the track. Hawthorne keeps their backstretch open during the 6 "dark" weeks.

[craigbraddick]

I am a big fan of synthetic surfaces and think the rift that has developed because of them is just another indicator of how divided the sport seems to be.

I would be quite happy if Tapeta was used nationwide.

That said, we do need some variation. Some right handed races (which could easily be done at most tracks) would be a start.

And although going into fantasy land territory here...every track with a turf course should have at least one jumps race per card!

Craig.

[Bochall]

Lots of good points. Where do i start....most Euro trainers stable their horses at their own yards, away from the track. Never been inside a horsehead but they have got to be happier at the farm. There is nothing 'natural' about horseracing except the actual act of running. The rest is "horse slavery" as a non interested friend of mine puts it. They would not organize themselves by class and distance, line up and race all on their own.
No, poly is not natural, but they will run on it. I am no fan of AWS but the good thing they may bring to the game would be to correct our breeding habits of speed speed speed (Zensational has a date with Ind. Blessing-how far will this guy go? 6f and not a foot further!).

[nearco]

Where do you rank running around a circle on synthetics?

Eliminate the issue by dropping both dirt and synthetics in favor of what most of the world runs on, grass. It's safer, would reduce the number of racing venues and racing dates and it would encourage breeding for more stamina.

Switching to all turf would not reduce the number of racing venues, in fact you would probably need the exact opposite, more venues to spread the racing around, as you wouldn't be able to race more than a few days in a row for any meet.

[nearco]

Btw, there is nothing natural about dirt as found in most US tracks. If you went out and scrapped and ploughed a field, that would be somewhat natural. If you truck in a specially designed mix of sand, clay and loam on a specially prepared base with banked turns, then sorry, but you can't call that natural.
Also, the whole tradition thing doesn't hold up either. The dirt they run on at Churchill Downs is not the same dirt they ran the first Derby over, or many other Derbies over the decades for that matter. The surface has been completely re done on several occasions.

Btw, the idea that they ran on sand. Maybe Arabians did (but again that is not the sand/loam/clay mix found at US tracks), but the TB is a English invention, and while the three foundation sires were imports, the mare base was native stock that had been running over English and Irish grass for centuries. So yes, it is the most natural thing in the world for a TB for gallop on grass, on undulating courses.

[joanied]

Lots of good points. Where do i start....most Euro trainers stable their horses at their own yards, away from the track. Never been inside a horsehead but they have got to be happier at the farm. There is nothing 'natural' about horseracing except the actual act of running. The rest is "horse slavery" as a non interested friend of mine puts it. They would not organize themselves by class and distance, line up and race all on their own.
No, poly is not natural, but they will run on it. I am no fan of AWS but the good thing they may bring to the game would be to correct our breeding habits of speed speed speed (Zensational has a date with Ind. Blessing-how far will this guy go? 6f and not a foot further!).

I agree with all you say...and I did mention that it's extremely important for the breeders to get stamina back into our horses...but let's face it, there will always be a place for sprinting...and ya got to admit, it's very exciting to see them break fast and go fast for a shorter distance...also, stamina isn't just horses running further...it's also about strength...as in staying sound...that is what breeders need to focus on...breeding a sounder horse...which means staying away from stallions that are known for throwing bad legs and mares that might also be questionable in their soundness.
Also, IMO...AWS will do nothing concerning breeding horses with more stamina/soundess...creating an artificial surface to get breeders to raise horses with stamina/soundess, IMO...is ridiculous, and just another way the AWS guys try to impose AWS upon everyone. Talk about un-natural...IMO, the horses that run well on AWS are the ones that just deal with it better...but I can imagine they are thinking...what in hell is this stuff under my feet!!!

There is no doubt, IMO, that horses stabled at a farm, or training facility with paddocks available are happy horses...horses, in general, are smart animals, and although some may argue it, horse do get bored. Another pitfall of stalls is the fact that muscles become cold & tight in the confines of a stall...which, IMO lead to injuries...
at the very least, trainers need to get horses out of their stalls several times during the day...which is damned hard to do considering the lay outs of the track barns at most tracks...
I don't know what the answers are...because the answers, the 'fix' for stabled horses seems impossible to implement...large areas between barns, round pens between barns, stable help that take horses out every afternoon to graze and walk for a good long time...
maybe one way to help the horses...the horses...would be to stop racing in winter, except in warm climates...and to in general, have less race dates nationwide...that is the only way I can think of to kinda force trainers into giving every horse they have a much needed break...and that would only work for the horses lucky enough to get sent to a farm or training facility where they can be put in large paddocks and be horses for a while.

The Euro horses are lucky in that the countries are small, everything is closer together, so shipping from the farm/stable yard to the track for racing is easy to do...but here, our tracks are surrounded by development...and we have so many stables, it would be impossible to have farms/stable yards available...

when you really think about it all...well...:bang: :bang: :bang:

[BetCrazyGirl]

I agree with all you say...and I did mention that it's extremely important for the breeders to get stamina back into our horses...but let's face it, there will always be a place for sprinting...and ya got to admit, it's very exciting to see them break fast and go fast for a shorter distance...also, stamina isn't just horses running further...it's also about strength...as in staying sound...that is what breeders need to focus on...breeding a sounder horse...my feet!!!

:


I agree with this, there is always safty talk being tossed around with surfaces, drugs, etc but I'm not sure how much any of that matters when the horses are being bred unsound. I think its a base to problems.

[Jeff P]

I'm pretty sure this article has been posted here at PA before... but I think it applies to some of the stuff being talked about in this thread.

From: The Blood-Horse
If I Was a Horseman - by E. Abraham Ola
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/02/10/If-I-Was-a-Horseman.aspx

Keep in mind that racing related breakdowns and deaths are much higher here in the US than they are in other parts of the world. The more I learn about the differences between how horses are treated in other parts of the world vs how they are treated here in the US, the more I am convinced that the above linked to article contains quite a bit of common sense.


-jp

.

[FenceBored]

Btw, there is nothing natural about dirt as found in most US tracks. If you went out and scrapped and ploughed a field, that would be somewhat natural. If you truck in a specially designed mix of sand, clay and loam on a specially prepared base with banked turns, then sorry, but you can't call that natural.


I understand what you're saying, but I would love to be there when you tell Gordon Ramsay that the meal he served you wasn't natural. :eek:

[Steve R]

[SNIP]...The Euro horses are lucky in that the countries are small, everything is closer together, so shipping from the farm/stable yard to the track for racing is easy to do...but here, our tracks are surrounded by development...and we have so many stables, it would be impossible to have farms/stable yards available...

when you really think about it all...well...:bang: :bang: :bang:
When Michael Dickinson was still training at Fair Hill and then Tapeta Farm, that's exactly how he did it, vanning his horses all over the Northeast between Baltimore and New York and working the horses on open fields and paths.

[WinterTriangle]

and ya got to admit, it's very exciting to see them break fast and go fast for a shorter distance...

I thought that's what quarter horse racing was all about.:)


When Casino Drive was here, he spent a good deal of time out of his stall, power walked for hours and hours daily. What was brought up is that you have to pay someone to do that.... and that's why U.S. horses spend 23 hours a day in their stalls.

The main thing I see is a difference in philosophy. Japanese take into considering the horses' *head*---- mind and emotions. "They look after the horse and treat it like an animal with feelings."

(We have trainers like that here......were all know which ones. )

Miho Training Center, every aspect designed with the welfare of the horse in mind. "recorded birdsong warbles from speakers, parched horses can quench their thirst at a scenic waterfall on verdant nature walks, mulch uphill courses (easy on legs), 60-meter indoor swimming pool, horses dry off under a hot-air fan. Occasionally a bather -- muzzle poking above the water's surface, legs paddling furiously below -- will panic with hydrophobia, so to calm horses and help prevent drowning, soothing Baroque music is played over the P.A. system...Practice starting gates, used for young horses, that are wider, to practice in, before they move on to the regular size gates. No matter how impressive the amenities at Miho, any of the 5,000 people who work there will tell you the real key to raising a good horse is to understand its character, to become its friend..."It's just like training a human athlete." .


"If I were a horseman" was an excellent article, thanks Jeff, for bumping up

[nearco]

The Euro horses are lucky in that the countries are small, everything is closer together, so shipping from the farm/stable yard to the track for racing is easy to do...but here, our tracks are surrounded by development...and we have so many stables, it would be impossible to have farms/stable yards available...


That just doesn't add up. Do you think that England and France are more sparsely populated and undeveloped than the US?
Do you know where Longchamp, France's premier track, is located. Right smack bang in the middle of Paris... here, have a look...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=longchamp+hippodrome&sll=52.111566,0.362549&sspn=1.103144,2.658691&ie=UTF8&hq=longchamp+hippodrome&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=48.854212,2.239323&spn=0.035523,0.083084&t=h&z=14
You see that other track about a mile to the east, also right in the middle of large city? That's Autuiel, France's premier jump racing track.
And you see that one about a mile to the west across the Seine? That's Saint Cloud, another of French racing's crown jewels.

And how would it be impossible to farms/training centers available? Have you see the state of the art training facilities in Japan? There are not located in the middle of nowhere, and real estate in Japan is probably more of a premium than in many parts of the US.
Chantilly, where thousands of French horses train in one of the most beautiful and serene settings you'll ever find, miles and miles of gallops and jogging paths, on grass, AW, sand most of it through the woods, and all located 30 miles north of Paris.

[WinterTriangle]

And how would it be impossible to farms/training centers available? Have you see the state of the art training facilities in Japan? There are not located in the middle of nowhere, and real estate in Japan is probably more of a premium than in many parts of the US.
Chantilly, where thousands of French horses train in one of the most beautiful and serene settings you'll ever find, miles and miles of gallops and jogging paths, on grass, AW, sand most of it through the woods, and all located 30 miles north of Paris.

Thank you for echoing what I have said.

As for space being a premium in Japan, and Paris, that's almost and understatement. Visiting there you see that reflected in the size of human dwellings. US is a huge endless expanse comparatively.

We not only have the space, but also the money, to have state of the art training facilities. But, we don't.

That speaks about priorities.

[joanied]

[QUOTE=Jeff P]I'm pretty sure this article has been posted here at PA before... but I think it applies to some of the stuff being talked about in this thread.

From: The Blood-Horse
If I Was a Horseman - by E. Abraham Ola
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/02/10/If-I-Was-a-Horseman.aspx

Keep in mind that racing related breakdowns and deaths are much higher here in the US than they are in other parts of the world. The more I learn about the differences between how horses are treated in other parts of the world vs how they are treated here in the US, the more I am convinced that the above linked to article contains quite a bit of common sense.


I read that article when it came out in the magazine...outstanding...in fact, I came very close to posting it here...and that is just what it is...good old fashioned...horse sense:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: ...now no one is saying we go back to oats, hay & water...today's equine feeds are excellent and you can find a feed to fit every horse...from foals & broodmares to seniors and horses in training...the thing is, in the days of oats, hay & water...we didn't have shelves full of drugs and vets running around with syringes in their hands...IMO, back to basics is such a great idea...not many of today's trainers would even think about it:faint:

Everyone that cares about the welfare of our horses should read that article...thanks for posting it, Jeff:)

[joanied]

When Michael Dickinson was still training at Fair Hill and then Tapeta Farm, that's exactly how he did it, vanning his horses all over the Northeast between Baltimore and New York and working the horses on open fields and paths.

Yes, he did...and I applaud him for it...and IMO, if every trainer did that, not only would we have happier horses...they'd be fitter & sounder.
Look what he did with DaHoss...amazing.

[joanied]

I thought that's what quarter horse racing was all about.:)


When Casino Drive was here, he spent a good deal of time out of his stall, power walked for hours and hours daily. What was brought up is that you have to pay someone to do that.... and that's why U.S. horses spend 23 hours a day in their stalls.

The main thing I see is a difference in philosophy. Japanese take into considering the horses' *head*---- mind and emotions. "They look after the horse and treat it like an animal with feelings."

(We have trainers like that here......were all know which ones. )

Miho Training Center, every aspect designed with the welfare of the horse in mind. "recorded birdsong warbles from speakers, parched horses can quench their thirst at a scenic waterfall on verdant nature walks, mulch uphill courses (easy on legs), 60-meter indoor swimming pool, horses dry off under a hot-air fan. Occasionally a bather -- muzzle poking above the water's surface, legs paddling furiously below -- will panic with hydrophobia, so to calm horses and help prevent drowning, soothing Baroque music is played over the P.A. system...Practice starting gates, used for young horses, that are wider, to practice in, before they move on to the regular size gates. No matter how impressive the amenities at Miho, any of the 5,000 people who work there will tell you the real key to raising a good horse is to understand its character, to become its friend..."It's just like training a human athlete." .


"If I were a horseman" was an excellent article, thanks Jeff, for bumping up

yes, Winter T...that is why we have QH racing, but it is a little different running 440 yards in a straight line, and the race is over in 20 seconds or less...
I am just being realisitc...our sprinters go 6 to 7F...which really is a different kind of race...and we both know, TB sprinting isn't going away...

I followed what the Japanese did with Casino Drive while they were here, what they did for that horse was wonderful...and, unless it's changed since I worked there, Belmont Park has many places you can walk or jog a horse around...they even (used to) have a 'pony track', some of it ran through the 'woods' back there...and they had tree lined paths back from where the main track backstretch is...there is opportunity at Belmont to get your horses out and away from the barn...
I think the Japanese are incredible in the way they care for their horses...they truly love them, revere them, and treat them like they would their own family members...you'll get no argument from me about that...

maybe at least our major tracks should think about spending money on 'bridle paths', large round pens...some thing, some way to releave the horses of their dismal day to day like stuck in a stall...IMO, it's a sorry way for a horse to live...and in most cases, I think something could be done about it.


And....so I don't have to use more quotes...thanks for posting about the Euro facilities...I knew about Japan, but did not realize that the facilities in France, UK ect wwere in such developed areas...my bad...never even thought about looking that up:blush: ...
we need places like Aiken, SC...I spent a winter there when I was at Belmont...the horses loved it...they relaxed and you could see how content they were at that facility...
so why don't we have places like that...places like the farms/yards in Europe...maybe because here in the USA...money talks...and most owners/trainers just don't care enough?
I don't know...
nearco...thanks for the link...it's an eye opener...so, OK...we have the space & the money...why in hell are we not building facilities like this...with all the travel horses do going here & there to race, I see no reason we can't have training facilities for our horses too...instead of trainers/owners paying for stalls...why can't they pay for facilities like we are talking about...:bang:

[Show Me the Wire]

Because it already costs a small fortune to train them.

[maxwell]

Synthetic tracks are better for tracks than horses; less maintenance and fewer cancelled cards. Once they come up with viable artificial turf, racing will be good to go. :rolleyes:

There's really only one way to reduce breakdowns: get rid of T-Breds and race clydesdales. :)

[gm10]

Seems to me that prior to the advent of the automobile that most roads were dirt. The Oregon Trail - dirt. The rural British highways - dirt. The streets in every settlement up to the size of a small city - dirt. Horses, as modified by human domestication and breeding, are exceptionally prepared to handle dirt at any gait.

You are kidding right??
Dirt as in 'dirt road' is definitely not the same as dirt in 'dirt surface'.

The thoroughbred has been bred to run on the TURF for some centuries. But even that is a drop in the ocean. Evolution had the breed to itself for a few million years, and running in a straight line with some human on its back on an artificial clay surface was in all likelihood not what evolution prepared them for.

[FenceBored]

You are kidding right??
Dirt as in 'dirt road' is definitely not the same as dirt in 'dirt surface'.

The thoroughbred has been bred to run on the TURF for some centuries. But even that is a drop in the ocean. Evolution had the breed to itself for a few million years, and running in a straight line with some human on its back on an artificial clay surface was in all likelihood not what evolution prepared them for.

Turf courses, where the soil composition is carefully maintained, the strains of grasses picked for their suitability for the purpose and their percentages scientifically determined, the grass height decided and manicured by humans, are no more 'natural' in the sense you are using it than dirt courses. They have little in common with a prehistoric meadow of 'volunteer' species.

The issue of naturalness is answered by this hypothetical: if a race course were to be taken up and spread across farmland, would there be concern about environmental impact? Turf courses without StrathAyr, definitely not. Average American Dirt course, definitely not. Aqueduct's winterized inner dirt, yes (what do they put on that?). Synthetics, you better believe it.

[gm10]

Turf courses, where the soil composition is carefully maintained, the strains of grasses picked for their suitability for the purpose and their percentages scientifically determined, the grass height decided and manicured by humans, are no more 'natural' in the sense you are using it than dirt courses. They have little in common with a prehistoric meadow of 'volunteer' species.

The issue of naturalness is answered by this hypothetical: if a race course were to be taken up and spread across farmland, would there be concern about environmental impact? Turf courses without StrathAyr, definitely not. Average American Dirt course, definitely not. Aqueduct's winterized inner dirt, yes (what do they put on that?). Synthetics, you better believe it.

I agree that turf is almost as unnatural, except for a few centuries of extra breeding for the turf.

Synthetics are unnatural, but not more or less than dirt. I prefer watching and handicapping races on the synthetic surface than the dirt, but that's an unrelated issue.

[Charlie D]

Oldest native breed to England is believed to be the Exmoor , then the Dartmoor and as the names suggests, manicured turf are probably not thier natural enviroment.

[WinterTriangle]

There's really only one way to reduce breakdowns: get rid of T-Breds and race clydesdales. :)

I don't think the examples of better training facilities was offered as it concerns breakdowns....

......instead, it's about giving horses what they enjoy, what relaxes them, and what keeps them emotionally and pyschologically balanced and happy.

Some people think they *deserve* that. :)

[FenceBored]

I agree that turf is almost as unnatural, except for a few centuries of extra breeding for the turf.

Synthetics are unnatural, but not more or less than dirt. I prefer watching and handicapping races on the synthetic surface than the dirt, but that's an unrelated issue.

Polyester is unnatural, but not more or less than wool. I prefer wearing and laundering clothes made of polyester rather than wool, but that's an unrelated issue.

[andymays]

The material that makes up sythetic surfaces wears out and needs to be replaced (all of it) every couple of years to keep it to specifications. If you don't do it you get Del Mar 2009 and Arlington 2009.

Why do they color it to look like dirt anyway? Be innovative and use some imagination. :sleeping:

How about Magenta? ;)

[WinterTriangle]

Why do they color it to look like dirt anyway? Be innovative and use some imagination. :sleeping:

How about Magenta? ;)

:lol:

I bought new water buckets for the dogs a few years ago. Bright red.

All 5 dogs avoided the buckets like the plague.

I wonder what color horses like underfoot?

[tzipi]

I prefer dirt to synthetic, but I am not a whiner like many here. However, I actually think running around a circle on dirt is just as unnatural as running on a synthetic.

For all of those that have a problem with synthetic because it is "unnatural", can you explain to me how natural it is for horses to live in stalls 23 hours a day and run around in a circle over dirt.

How exactly do you justify that if you are so concerned with "unnatural" things like a synthetic track?

How about all those "natural" drugs in American racing.

Please explain, or is it just you like "natural" things as long as they are something you prefer?



It's ALSO unnatural for horses to run at night but they have night racing. Should we just ban racing all together?

[gm10]

Polyester is unnatural, but not more or less than wool. I prefer wearing and laundering clothes made of polyester rather than wool, but that's an unrelated issue.

Yes it is.

[maxwell]

I don't think the examples of better training facilities was offered as it concerns breakdowns....

......instead, it's about giving horses what they enjoy, what relaxes them, and what keeps them emotionally and pyschologically balanced and happy.

Some people think they *deserve* that. :)

Winter,

Of course better facilities treat horses great; just like better hotels treat me and you great. There is a little matter of $ however. The vast majority of horses are lucky if they get turned out at a farm let alone a spa. There's a big difference between what horses deserve and what they get.

[WinterTriangle]

Winter,

Of course better facilities treat horses great; just like better hotels treat me and you great. There is a little matter of $ however. The vast majority of horses are lucky if they get turned out at a farm let alone a spa. There's a big difference between what horses deserve and what they get.

I'm not sure how this explains the difference in training facilities between the U.S. and others mentioned? :confused:



Let me give a piece of philosophy here that might make sense (i.e, be recognizable) hopefully, to a few people:

Organizations improve, and people become successful, etc. when they make the decision to stop making excuses.

That is the distinct moment in time where forward-movement begins, because work and action begins.

Anyone who has moved their business, or themselves, or their marriage, or anything else forward, will probably know what I'm talking about. ;)

(People pay thousands of $$ to shrinks, life coaches, and business analysts, to get that simple piece of the puzzle, so at the risk of sounding egotistical, I'm giving it out for free. :lol: )


Most of the stuff that would make things better for horses (and for racing) doesn't cost a lot. It's just not a priority. (Reading the lawsuit involving I Want Revenge and the number of things injected into him made me sick).

[maxwell]

Winter,

Your closing remark says it all : It's not a priority. That's pretty much what I've been saying in both of my posts. Racing is not too concerned with making things better for the horses or the betting public.

[andymays]

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/sports/2009/November/sports_November520.xml&section=sports&col=

Excerpt:

Already, the news has resonated throughout the racing world in a positive way. The development cements the UAE’s position as leading the sport’s internationalization, in a way that sticking with dirt wouldn’t have.

In the USA, the home of dirt racing, they are slowly beginning to embrace the new synthetic, all weather, surfaces, although at the moment the three Triple Crown tracks are stubbornly refusing to budge. It is now accepted that ‘turf’ horses in most cases run just as well on synthetic tracks and this can only be good news for the World Cup.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Translation.. Those backward people in the U.S. that still like dirt ought to give it up or go away.

The "punking" of Horseplayers in the U.S. is well on it's way! ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

So how doe this bit of news impact Santa Anita's alleged plans about reinstalling "dirt'? surface? Positive, negative or neutral effect on Santa Anita?

[andymays]

So how doe this bit of news impact Santa Anita's alleged plans about reinstalling "dirt'? surface? Positive, negative or neutral effect on Santa Anita?


If it were going to happen they would have to get started next week. Since they don't have any new owners yet it probably aint gonna happen. I made up my mind to drastically limit my play there next year if they remain synthetic.