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Cadillakin
11-14-2009, 11:55 AM
The brilliant runner who flies the quarter in 21.1 and a half in 43.2 is a horse that - under nearly every circumstance - is incapable of staying a classic distance. An analogy might be a baseball pitcher who lifts weights and becomes too muscular.. At some point, the over-muscling prevents fluid action and motion in his pitching arm.The more powerful his arm becomes, the more his velocity suffers. In fact, some weight lifters can't throw a ball at all. Why is it that a man with big strong arms can't throw as fast as some skinny dude with not much muscling at all?

In breeding, there is often similar occurrence when thoroughbreds are bred speed on speed. They tend to be too physically powerful, too blocky, and often suffer from a lack of fluidity and symmetry - not to mention that they are nearly all unmanageable front runners who won't easily rate or cooperate. Too much of one thing denotes too little of another. That's why we never see our Olympic 100 meter dashers, competing and winning the mile races, nor do we see our best sprinters running in the classics. It's not that they cannot try, but physically they aren't capable. So, when we mate, we try to add to what the other lacks, not double up on it. Zensational to Indian Blessing (as is said to be in the works) does not expand either horses class, it limits it.

In handicapping, betting a horse to stay a distance of ground who can keep up with with the early pace of very fast sprinters will earn you a one-way ticket to the poor house. It is a near physiological impossibility for a horse to have the power and sheer speed to shade or come very close to a 44 half, AND have the inherent stamina to run 10 furlongs in top company. Remember this as you survey the youngsters who will attempt the classics.. A few of the great speedsters like Dr. Fager and Seattle Slew may have come close to combining the attributes of both sprinter and stayer, but both had vulnerabilities in this regard. Neither would beat Safely Kept. Only another sprinter of her class, who could keep her in range could beat her, not front-running classicists like Slew or Dr. Fager. I remember seeing the top class handicapper and champion, Ack Ack, tackle sprinters in a race at Santa Anita. The race was at 7 furlongs, a good compromise distance for both the speed of the sprinter, and the routing speed and class of Ack Ack. I thought he was the cinch of the century.. The others were peons compared to him. Well the long and short of it was that when the Grade 3 sprinter, Right or Wrong, unleashed a half in nearly 44, the great Ack Ack was very hard pressed to stick to him. He was absolutely all out and very hard ridden from gate to wire to beat the "inferior horse" a short nose. The point is that Right or Wrong was not nearly the horse that Ack Ack was at the routing distances, but when Ack Ack played his game, the class distance between them shortened to almost nothing. Ack Ack was not a better horse than Right or Wrong at that distance - he was an equal. I was dead wrong. At 6 furlongs, Right or Wrong would have probably beaten the mighty Ack Ack.

While watching that particular race, the lesson was learned; No horse can do all things with equal aplomb. On the spectrum of speed and stamina, the more that a horse performs to one side or the other, the less he is likely to excel as he moves to the opposite side of that same spectrum. All of this will be true whether we are discussing mankind or the tortoise and the hare. It is an easy concept to grasp I think, but applying it absolutely to horses is sometimes difficult, particularly as they change company.. A sprinter can get a route distance if he lands in a race of inferior company, and a router can win sprinting in the same circumstance. Though Zenyatta won sprinting as a maiden, she would have been unable to do so when she developed further and ran in the Grade 1 races. Nor would she have beaten Rachel Alexandra in the shorter races. At 9 furlongs, in my estimation, they come together.. On the other hand, Rachel Alexandra if trained to do so, might give top sprinters a good run for their money. But if pitched too far, she will come back to the classic field. It is not a criticism of either to say they cannot do all things equally well, it is the limitation that nature imposes.

And such is the reality of the racing horse and the handicapper who tries to understand them.. Speed is the element that makes the race horse great, and when endowed with too much.. it is also the element that limits them.

Robert Fischer
11-14-2009, 12:40 PM
Hey Caddy
did you write this?

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

andymays
11-14-2009, 12:48 PM
Hey Caddy
did you write this?

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:


He can write about this stuff as good as anyone out there! :ThmbUp:

bisket
11-14-2009, 01:04 PM
this post explains why i love the months of december- may :ThmbUp: when actually knowing whether a horse can run past a mile in graded company without a line of speed figs to go by really pays its dividends $$$$$$$$

the_fat_man
11-14-2009, 01:19 PM
That's why we never see our Olympic 100 meter dashers, competing and winning the mile races, nor do we see our best sprinters running in the classics. It's not that they cannot try, but physically they aren't capable.


True. You also don't see funny cars competing in the Indy 500. YET on any given day, on tracks all around the country, you have horses going distances they just can't navigate. Moreover, their trainers can't quite get straight whether these horses are routers or sprinters, thus, they sprint them and route them and sprint them and route them, etc. The conclusion is that these trainers are basically clueless what it comes to even basic principles of preparation.


I remember seeing the top class handicapper and champion, Ack Ack, tackle sprinters in a race at Santa Anita. The race was at 7 furlongs, a good compromise distance for both the speed of the sprinter, and the routing speed and class of Ack Ack. I thought he was the cinch of the century.. The others were peons compared to him. Well the long and short of it was that when the Grade 3 sprinter, Right or Wrong, unleashed a half in nearly 44, the great Ack Ack was very hard pressed to stick to him. He was absolutely all out and very hard ridden from gate to wire to beat the "inferior horse" a short nose. The point is that Right or Wrong was not nearly the horse that Ack Ack was at the routing distances, but when Ack Ack played his game, the class distance between them shortened to almost nothing. Ack Ack was not a better horse than Right or Wrong at that distance - he was an equal. I was dead wrong. At 6 furlongs, Right or Wrong would have probably beaten the mighty Ack Ack.



I think a router with enough speed to 'stay close enough' can beat just about any sprinter of comparable ability. The key, however, is how close he stays early. It's interesting that most seem to think that these horses lose because they can't run with the sprinter early, while, in fact, it's because they run too fast early and nullify their late running advantage. It's all about timing: something jocks and trainers know nothing about (and I don't mean how FAST they're running). The closer can have an advantage, even on dirt, IF he's allowed to engage the frontrunner at a point in the race where that one is most vulnerable -- and it's not EARLY (or on the turn).

bisket
11-14-2009, 01:28 PM
i think what happens most times to routers in sprints is they sometimes just can't smell the lead, and just say screw it. last year the thing that tipped off the i want revenge had a good chance to become a great horse was the fact that he stayed with sprinters in his first few maiden races. when i saw his build in the cash call it closed the deal for me.

Show Me the Wire
11-14-2009, 01:41 PM
Cadillakin:

Good substancial discussion about horses' physical limitations. A refreshing break from those inane posts about hosres looking pretty.

Cratos
11-14-2009, 03:29 PM
You make some good points about the speed of the racehorse, but saying “a few of the great speedsters like Dr. Fager and Seattle Slew may have come close to combining the attributes of both sprinter and stayer, but both had vulnerabilities in this regard. Neither would beat Safely Kept” is a very poor example to support your thesis.

I not sure if Seattle Slew would have beaten Safety Kept at the sprint, but the good Doctor (two times sprint champion) would have destroyed her and I am not exaggerating that assertion.

When Dr. Fager won the Washington Park Handicap toting 134 pounds and setting a world record for the mile in 1:32.2 he was second at the quarter in that race in 22.82 seconds before running the half in :44 flat (a second quarter in an incredible 21.18 seconds), but he didn’t stop there because he ran the 6f in that race in 1:07.6 seconds.

If this is not enough proof about Dr. Fager’s sprint speed you need not to look any farther than his last career start when he was put in the 7f Vosburgh Hcp toting a staggering 139 pounds and what did he do against Kissin George and Jim J, two of the fastest sprinters of the day?

He ran the first quarter of the race in :22.3, the second quarter in :21.6, the 6f in 1;07.8 while completing the 7f distance in world record time of 1:20.2 and winning by 6 lengths.

Safety Kept never ran a 6f under 1:08 in her distinguished career and at the time of 1:08 she was beaten by Carson City. Also, I don’t if you were around to see Dr. Fager during his illustrious career, but his first quarters of his races were fast, but not exceptionally fast; it was after the first quarter that his “after-burners” kicked in.

Steve R
11-14-2009, 03:33 PM
Cadillakin:

Good substancial discussion about horses' physical limitations. A refreshing break from those inane posts about hosres looking pretty.
FWIW, this article may be of interest to some:

Speed in the Thoroughbred (http://www.chef-de-race.com/articles/speed_in_the_thoroughbred.htm)

46zilzal
11-14-2009, 04:42 PM
BEST treatise on speed is Carrol's. One of the few books Beyer raved about

Only THREE memorable ones could both sprint and route with the best of their generations: Ack Ack, Forego and Fager. ALL monsters at both challenges and the Whittingham trainee did it on both dirt and grass.

Then of course Secretariat did the BOTH with ease on any surface as well but being in a class by himself it is hard to compare any mortal to him.

Cratos
11-14-2009, 05:07 PM
BEST treatise on speed is Carrol's. One of the few books Beyer raved about

Only THREE memorable ones could both sprint and route with the best of their generations: Ack Ack, Forego and Fager. ALL monsters at both challenges and the Whittingham trainee did it on both dirt and grass.

Then of course Secretariat did the BOTH with ease on any surface as well but being in a class by himself it is hard to compare any mortal to him.

What about Precisionist?

Steve R
11-14-2009, 05:17 PM
What about Precisionist?
And Ghostzappeer. 120 Beyer going 7, 122 Beyer going 8, 128 Beyer going 9 and 124 Beyer going 10.

Cratos
11-14-2009, 06:35 PM
And Ghostzappeer. 120 Beyer going 7, 122 Beyer going 8, 128 Beyer going 9 and 124 Beyer going 10.

I completely forgot the 'Zapper. Thanks for including him.

cj
11-14-2009, 07:02 PM
People tend to forget, but Unbridled was a very good sprinter. He didn't have the early speed, but did manage to easily whip Housebuster at 7f in his next race after winning the BC Classic.

How is it Ruffian hasn't been mentioned in this thread? Forty Niner was another with brilliant speed that just kept running as the races lengthened.

A few others I can think of are Spend A Buck, Winning Colors and of course Holy Bull. It is very true those types of horse are rare, but when you get one, is there anything more special?

Of course, it will never happen again without dirt. Sorry, just couldn't resist.

trying2win
11-14-2009, 08:20 PM
Cadillakin:

Great initial post in this thread! :ThmbUp: I enjoyed reading it.


T2W

Stillriledup
11-14-2009, 11:30 PM
Good stuff Caddy. I totally agree that the Zens/Ind Bless mating is silly. If you are the owners of Indian Blessing, you want to breed a horse who has a chance to win races at classic distance.....this foal will be everyone's first handicapping throwout when the races get longer.

bisket
11-14-2009, 11:37 PM
you know i always felt if blessing was trained by someone else she could go 1 1/8 miles in grade 1 company. you know her closing times for her sprints were not much different from her routes that she ran as a 3 year old. baffert runs his horses hard in the mornings, and i feel if blessing was trained a little more lightly in her works she would have eventually ran her races slow enough early to win at 1 1/8 mile.
as far as a router going short. what about spectacular bid setting the track record for 7 furs at sant anita in the malibu.

pedigreeman
11-23-2009, 05:05 AM
“Signor Federico Tesio was one of the finest, if not the finest, judge of a horse, his pedigree and how to train him, in the whole of Europe. He was a man of great charm and made friends everywhere, but will be chiefly remembered for the good horses he bred. Together with the late Lord Derby, Signor Tesio had more influence on the breeding of the Thoroughbred than anyone else in my time.”


"Tesio did not patronize pure sprinters as sires. You will look in vain for crosses of sprinting sires, such as Tetratema, Panorama, etc., in the Tesio pedigrees. Tesio did not despise speed; indeed, he was fond of saying that in the pedigrees of nearly all high-class racers, one could find animals of exceptional speed fairly close up. Tesio relied almost entirely on British strains for the introduction of new blood into his stud, but he did not mind American blood. Nearco himself traced in tail female to Maiden (by Lexington), a winner of the Travers."

"In England it is an accepted fact that the winners of the classics can and do transmit in great part their own racing excellence to their offspring. This cannot be an accidental thing for year after year English Derby winners prove their worth as sires by producing sons and daughters which in their turn capture the great events of the turf, This is not the result of haphazard breeding. It is directly due to the great care and skill which the English breeders devote to the mating of their great sires."


“Was Dr. Fager just so naturally fast that he would have done well in any barn?” I asked.
Nerud shook his head slowly. “He had two clubbed feet, and we packed them every day with either cotton or mud. Otherwise he was a very intelligent and easy-going horse who learned his lessons quickly. I think it’s fair to say that a great horse usually overcomes his trainer...He was a good eater and sleeper, and liked to sleep lying down. He also liked to show off, and he knew he was special. “He was kind of multi-colored, depending on the light. Sometimes light bay, sometimes brown, sometimes almost gold. He was a chameleon. And he was a throw-back to Spur--five generations back on the topline of his pedigree. I once met an old hot-walker who told me he’d walked Spur and that Dr. Fager was the perfect image of Spur. You just never know what ancestor a horse will take after, and sometimes it won’t be any one, but a blend of them all.

Jackal
11-23-2009, 05:33 AM
What I don't like about the Zensational / Indian blessing breeding is the number of times thy both go back to Mr Prospector. Zensational is linebred to Mr Prospector and Indian Blessing has him in her 4th generation. Almost like a "hill folk" breeding. :bang:

Horseplayersbet.com
11-23-2009, 09:19 AM
A mile and an eighth would be a perfect distance to have seen a match race between Zenyatta and Rachel, but on what surface :)

Another factor is the size and shape of the hoof. Some hoof types excel on the turf, and these same hoof types tend to do slightly better of artificial surfaces as well.