On Another Matter...

[Steve R]

Since there is no obvious standout (at least to me) in the Eclipse Award older male division, just wondering if a case could be made for Einstein based on his versatility and successes earlier in the year. I'm prepared to toss his BC Classic for any number of reasons, just as I am Rip Van Winkle's.

[toussaud]

if gio ponti doesn't win older male horse he should just sit outside the building and bite everyone.

[tribecaagent]

Is Gio Ponti not the obvious?

[FenceBored]

Is Gio Ponti not the obvious?

There are some voters who feel that Older Male should be a main track award, since there is a separate Turf Male award. I took it that SteveR is leaning in that direction. If you include all surfaces, I can't think of an older male with a stronger case than Gio Ponti.

[Steve R]

Is Gio Ponti not the obvious?
In the the entire history of the Eclipse Awards, the only same-year turf champions/older male champions were that year 's Horse of the Year as well (Round Table, Dr. Fager, Fort Marcy and John Henry). That won't happen in 2009 so it would be a first. Also, Einstein did win or place in 5 G1s and he is the ONLY horse in North America to do so on all three surfaces.

Let me modify that last sentence. He is probably the ONLY horse in the world in 2009 to win or place in G1s on all three surfaces. That may not be significant to those who won't distinguish between AW and dirt. But as I mentioned in another thread, if pps are going to show a separate racing summary line for AW, that's a tacit admission that AW is not dirt.

[tribecaagent]

Guys,

Einstein is a favorite of mine but please.

Gio Ponti won 4 grade one's on 4 different racetracks. Not to mention a placing on pro-ride in the classic. It's not even close.

[Steve R]

Guys,

Einstein is a favorite of mine but please.

Gio Ponti won 4 grade one's on 4 different racetracks. Not to mention a placing on pro-ride in the classic. It's not even close.
Well, here it is again. This also comes down to a surface issue, just like HotY. I believe that Gio Ponti's performance in the BC Classic was enhanced by the racing surface, as was Twice Over's and those of other established turf performers in their AWS events, so I look at it as an extension of his turf abilities. In fact, had the Classic been on dirt, I'd bet the farm Gio Ponti goes in one of the grass races and not the Classic, just as Zenyatta would have gone in the Ladies Classic and not the Classic.

[joanied]

Wouldn't Einstein for Champion Older Horse and Gio Ponti for Champion Turf Horse be a fair conclusion?

[tucker6]

Wouldn't Einstein for Champion Older Horse and Gio Ponti for Champion Turf Horse be a fair conclusion?
I don't agree. If one horse is above the rest in both categories, that horse should win both. I don't believe that splitting the awards to make more people feel better about their horses is the answer. I'm not saying you're saying that, but I get the feeling people want to share the wealth instead of selecting on merit. I think Gio Ponti has earned both IMHO.

[WinterTriangle]

He is probably the ONLY horse in the world in 2009 to win or place in G1s on all three surfaces.

Yes, Einstein is omni surface G1 winner. And yes, very unusual. And it wasn't place or win. It was Win, Win, and Win.

Only Lava Man that I can think of in recent history.


But not the *only* one who won *stakes* races on all 3 surfaces:

Monterrey Jazz got his 3rd surface in July (HOL)
Muska got it with the Keenland win in spinster

[toetoe]

Well, here it is again. This also comes down to a surface issue, just like HotY. I believe that Gio Ponti's performance in the BC Classic was enhanced by the racing surface



You know you're relegating Zenyatta to mediocrity with this logic, right ? :confused:

[Steve R]

Wouldn't Einstein for Champion Older Horse and Gio Ponti for Champion Turf Horse be a fair conclusion?
That would be my take, but those who insist Pro-Ride doesn't favor turf horses would not agree. Personally, I think the Santa Anita surface moved him up several lengths and is not at all representative of how effective he would be on dirt.

[Steve R]

You know you're relegating Zenyatta to mediocrity with this logic, right ? :confused:
What does an established turf horse's performance on Pro-Ride have to do with Zenyatta? From what I recall, she never raced on turf so there was nothing to move up or down from. Your question makes no sense at all.

[Bobzilla]

Welcome to the brave new world of synthetics. The entire picture is blurred beyond belief. These Eclipse awards were never defined enough to handle this world we're now in. Traditionally, horses such as Bullsbay and Macho Again would have been the primary considerations for this honor. But now, I guess we'll just go along with Gio Ponti, a turf/pro-ride sort, whose 2nd in the Classic trumps everything that the surface ambidexterous Einstein ever did, or should it? ... Hell, now thanks to Michael Dickinson, now I'm confused....... The answer.... I have no freakin idea....... Time for another shot .....

[andymays]

Welcome to the brave new world of synthetics. The entire picture is blurred beyond belief. These Eclipse awards were never defined enough to handle this world we're now in. Traditionally, horses such as Bullsbay and Macho Again would have been the primary considerations for this honor. But now, I guess we'll just go along with Gio Ponti, a turf/pro-ride sort, whose 2nd in the Classic trumps everything that the surface ambidexterous Einstein ever did, or should it? ... Hell, now thanks to Michael Dickonson, now I'm confused....... The answer.... I have no freakin idea....... Time for another shot .....


Think about it. Half the Board is losing their minds going back and forth over who's best. Without synthetic racing none of this crap would be going on.

This is what synthetics have done for racing. This is a friggin joke and absolute insanity. WTF! :ThmbDown:

[tribecaagent]

Well, here it is again. This also comes down to a surface issue, just like HotY. I believe that Gio Ponti's performance in the BC Classic was enhanced by the racing surface, as was Twice Over's and those of other established turf performers in their AWS events, so I look at it as an extension of his turf abilities. In fact, had the Classic been on dirt, I'd bet the farm Gio Ponti goes in one of the grass races and not the Classic, just as Zenyatta would have gone in the Ladies Classic and not the Classic.

I don't disagree with Gio Ponti's advantage over the pro-ride, however, he WON (not a placing - not a showing) four grade one races. Also, who's to say, he might've won the BC Turf if he runs.

[Steve R]

I don't disagree with Gio Ponti's advantage over the pro-ride, however, he WON (not a placing - not a showing) four grade one races. Also, who's to say, he might've won the BC Turf if he runs.
If the number of G1 wins gives Gio Ponti the advantage, then I guess Rachel Alexandra gets the edge over Zenyatta. The "might have" comment is irrelevant because who knows how many G1s Einstein could have won if he had stayed on his preferred surface, turf. I give his connections tremendous credit for accepting the challenges they did at the game's highest level.

[tribecaagent]

If the number of G1 wins gives Gio Ponti the advantage, then I guess Rachel Alexandra gets the edge over Zenyatta. The "might have" comment is irrelevant because who knows how many G1s Einstein could have won if he had stayed on his preferred surface, turf. I give his connections tremendous credit for accepting the challenges they did at the game's highest level.

Yeah Steve, I'm drinking the Rachel cool-aid for several reasons; number of G1 wins not among them.

As I said, the synthetic surface helped Gio Ponti in the Classic but it also helped Einstein in the Big Cap.

I adore Einstein (as I've stated in previous threads), but Gio Ponti proved he can win several G1's during the course of the year as well as running a huge race in North America's premier race.

Synthetic or no synthetic, that's the way the racing calendar set up and Gio Ponti is clearly the better racehorse.

[MNslappy]

if gio ponti doesn't win older male horse he should just sit outside the building and bite everyone.

:D I lol'd

[chickenhead]

In the the entire history of the Eclipse Awards, the only same-year turf champions/older male champions were that year 's Horse of the Year as well (Round Table, Dr. Fager, Fort Marcy and John Henry). That won't happen in 2009 so it would be a first.

And if it had happened once before, then it would be ok? Everything that happens happens for the first time the first time. That turf horses have ever won it means it is not explicitly a dirt award. It would make more sense if it was -- I think the real argument would be that turf horses should never have won it.

But rather than history supporting this argument, history actually supports that there is no logical rule to it. Older turf horse can equal older horse if said turf horse is also horse of year. There is no logic to that, it's been made up as it goes along.

They both had great years -- give it either of them. But neither won a dirt race -- if dirt is our rule, then neither remotely qualify.

[Steve R]

And if it had happened once before, then it would be ok? Everything that happens happens for the first time the first time. That turf horses have ever won it means it is not explicitly a dirt award. It would make more sense if it was -- I think the real argument would be that turf horses should never have won it.

But rather than history supporting this argument, history actually supports that there is no logical rule to it. Older turf horse can equal older horse if said turf horse is also horse of year. There is no logic to that, it's been made up as it goes along.

They both had great years -- give it either of them. But neither won a dirt race -- if dirt is our rule, then neither remotely qualify.
Three of the four I mentioned were, in fact, among the very best G1 level winners on dirt in the year they also won the turf awards. Their older male awards were not just add ons. The only exception is Fort Marcy who won HotY based solely on his grass record. Name Gio Ponti HotY and I have no problem with adding the older male award because it will mean he is absolutely better than any horse regardless of their surface preference. We know that's not the case.

BTW, Einstein came within a neck of winning two G1s on an AWS and lost his only try in a G1 on dirt by a diminishing length, although he had won at the graded`stakes level on dirt before. So he was a length and a neck away from 4 G1 wins while taking huge risks, unlike many horses who maximize their record by taking relatively few.

[chickenhead]

Name Gio Ponti HotY and I have no problem with adding the older male award because it will mean he is absolutely better than any horse regardless of their surface preference.

What in the world does how good a 3 yr old filly is (for instance), have to do with who is the best older horse -- on any or all surfaces? Absolutely nothing. It's nonsense.

Older horse is for older horse. It's either open to turf horses, or its not. It's probably nonsensical to NOT GIVE an older HOY older horse. If they are HOY, they are best older horse, by definition. But the opposite doesn't hold, it's madness to require an older horse to be HOY first, in order to be best older horse, if and only if, they run on turf.

[Bochall]

Some in this thread are praising Einstein for his versatility, but Gio Ponti KICKED THE CRAP out of Einstein on turf and pro ride (Arl Mill and BC Classic). Since Einstein has a dirt win he deserves the Eclipse.........Hello??!! No brainer...its Gio Ponti. Hell, he would be the HOTY hands down (a horseracing term, btw) if not for the girls.

[Pace Cap'n]

Hell, he would be the HOTY hands down (a horseracing term, btw) if not for the girls.

I sure did not know that. Learn something every day.


Jockeys need to keep a tight rein in order to encourage their horse to run. Anyone who is so far ahead that he can afford to slacken off and still win he can drop his hands and loosen the reins - hence winning 'hands down'.


www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/
(http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/win-hands-down.html)

[Steve R]

What in the world does how good a 3 yr old filly is (for instance), have to do with who is the best older horse -- on any or all surfaces? Absolutely nothing. It's nonsense.

Older horse is for older horse. It's either open to turf horses, or its not. It's probably nonsensical to NOT GIVE an older HOY older horse. If they are HOY, they are best older horse, by definition. But the opposite doesn't hold, it's madness to require an older horse to be HOY first, in order to be best older horse, if and only if, they run on turf.
Wow! Your reading skills need a lot of work.

[Steve R]

Some in this thread are praising Einstein for his versatility, but Gio Ponti KICKED THE CRAP out of Einstein on turf and pro ride (Arl Mill and BC Classic). Since Einstein has a dirt win he deserves the Eclipse.........Hello??!! No brainer...its Gio Ponti. Hell, he would be the HOTY hands down (a horseracing term, btw) if not for the girls.
Which concludes my discussion of the history of the Eclipse Awards and the "2009 Breeders' Cup North American All-Weather Surface and Turf Self-Proclaimed Championships".

BTW, I really don't care which horses win Eclipse Awards anymore. I was just throwing this topic out for discussion. What I got was series of responses from self-righteous simpletons who use sarcasm as a substitute for intelligent dialog.

I gave up interest in the Eclipse Awards almost 20 years ago when they went for Criminal Type over Unbridled as HotY. My feelings were confirmed yet again last year when it went to Curlin over Zenyatta.

[Bochall]

BTW, I really don't care which horses win Eclipse Awards anymore. I was just throwing this topic out for discussion. What I got was series of responses from self-righteous simpletons who use sarcasm as a substitute for intelligent dialog.

I gave up interest in the Eclipse Awards almost 20 years ago when they went for Criminal Type over Unbridled as HotY. My feelings were confirmed yet again last year when it went to Curlin over Zenyatta.[/QUOTE] Steve, the responses you got were because you put up a weak candidate for HOY and people jumped on it. Now you're upset....go figure. If you gave up on the Eclipse and you dont care who wins (as you say) then why start the thread? Bottom line is that GP whipped Einstein twice on 2 surfaces. Done deal.

[Steve R]

Steve, the responses you got were because you put up a weak candidate for HOY and people jumped on it. Now you're upset....go figure. If you gave up on the Eclipse and you dont care who wins (as you say) then why start the thread? Bottom line is that GP whipped Einstein twice on 2 surfaces. Done deal.
Einstein wasn't a weak candidate when he was a leading contender for HotY in the first half of the year, was he? He faltered late, yes, but he still was a neck and a head away from 4G1 wins on three surfaces, two real and one fake. Gio Ponti won 4 G1s and then showed he didn't stay a mile and a half, a distance his connections had avoided like the plague for his entire career, essentially precluding a start in the BC Turf. We all evaluate horses differently, don't we? And that's as it should be.

I think you're still missing the point. Again, throughout the history of the Eclipse Awards there have been many turf champions superior to that year's dirt champion but didn't get both awards. Paradise Creek was arguably superior to The Wicked North. Same for Manila over Turkoman and certainly John Henry over Bates Motel. None of those turf champions won the older male award, not even John Henry in one of his HotY seasons. So maybe the solution is an older male non-turf championship instead of what we have now. Otherwise, dirt horses get a shot at only one award while turf horses get a shot at two for the same campaign. What this gets down to is the bastard surface in the BC. I see it as more likely to enhance the performance of many turf horses and to diminish the performance of many dirt horses, and the evidence in the last two years is, IMO, overwhelming.

In any case, not caring which horses win an award does not preclude a discussion of the relative merits of the divisional contenders. I can still argue that Rachel Alexandra is superior to Zenyatta and not get bent out of shape if the latter is HotY.

BTW, the turf champion that didn't fit the pattern of dual champions Round Table, Dr. Fager and John Henry as elite dirt performers, Fort Marcy, is prominent among the 100 greatest Thoroughbreds of the 20th century according to a Blood-Horse poll of racing historians. It would have been quite difficult under any circumstances for the top dirt horses that year to challenge his supremacy. I wouldn't put Gio Ponti in that category and I don't consider his BC Classic effort as relevant because of what I consider a severe surface bias. You can believe differently and I respect that.

[chickenhead]

Wow! Your reading skills need a lot of work.

Uh huh.

[Bochall]

My bad, didnt mean to sound so harsh. History says it would be rare for Gio to win both awards, but this particular year seems cut and dry, esp when comparing head to head on 2 surfaces. You are right, Einstein is not a 'weak' candidate as i had asserted.

[Moyers Pond]

Since there is no obvious standout (at least to me) in the Eclipse Award older male division, just wondering if a case could be made for Einstein based on his versatility and successes earlier in the year. I'm prepared to toss his BC Classic for any number of reasons, just as I am Rip Van Winkle's.

You can't just toss races because the horse did not perform well.

Gio Ponti beat him on the turf too.

Gio Ponti is a lock for that Eclipse.

[Steve R]

You can't just toss races because the horse did not perform well.

Gio Ponti beat him on the turf too.

Gio Ponti is a lock for that Eclipse.
Whatever you say.

[FenceBored]

Steve R, you're not alone. Gary West on his blog agrees.


And I don’t think there should be a champion older male this year. I know that will be a minority opinion, and somebody, probably Gio Ponti, will win the award, but I don’t feel comfortable voting for him or anybody else in the division.

...

And that, of course, leads to Gio Ponti, who’ll no doubt be the champion turf horse of 2009. But should he also be the champion older male? History insists he shouldn’t. He didn’t win on dirt; in fact, he didn’t even race on dirt. Even putting the synthetic issue aside, he didn’t win on the main track; he ran second in the Classic and fifth in the Strub.
-- http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/west_points/2009/12/an-eclipse-ballot-the-older-horses.html

[Murph]

You know you're relegating Zenyatta to mediocrity with this logic, right ? :confused:OMG toe ...
Einstein is clearly the older male eclipse award winner.