There are No Medication Regulations in the Mornings

[Cadillakin]

I think it's an important point that is often glossed over in the arguments for and against synthetics. The latest California fatality data shows a steep decline in racing fatalities on the local synthetic surfaces.. but fatalities during training hours when the environment is decidedly more relaxed have not declined at all.

That shouldn't be the case. Most horses don't break from the gate in the mornings.. There is much less bumping and jostling.. and the pace of workouts are generally much slower... with gradual, non-stressful run-ups to the pole... and plenty of time for warmup.

There are no medication regulations in the mornings.

The (unfinished) studies linked here are science.. Many of you that don't like the synthetics will of course ignore the data.. and that's your prerogative. I understand it. Because if rigorous study concludes that synthetic racing does save horses lives, those who are advocating for dirt racing only are weakened in their arguments. After all, what kind of man ignores data that saves the lives of the horses who race for us, while suggesting that racing on synthetics hampers his handicapping? I understand some of the trainers being against synthetics. They are used to doing things in a certain way, just like the handicappers. Many injuries that are not common to dirt racing are cropping up racing over the synthetic surfaces. It's unfamiliar. Further, I'm unaware of any public stance against the synthetics by the jockeys.. It is very likely they are becoming aware that fewer horses are going down in traffic - at least here in California. Their lives are at stake. These issues are no small matter for them.

I have no illusions. I too preferred dirt for my handicapping. But for me, and others like Hall of Famer, Richard Mandella, quoted in this article, if synthetics helps the horses, we will support it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/sports/06horses.html?_r=1

[Tom]

You are confusing me.....in the first paragraph you say fatalities during training have not declined on poly.

Then you seem to say it is good for the horses?

[Show Me the Wire]

You are confusing me.....in the first paragraph you say fatalities during training have not declined on poly.

Then you seem to say it is good for the horses?

I believe he is saying some connections are putting unsound horses out on the track, while medicated to not feel pain.

Meaning that the problem of breakdowns is not really related to any well maintained racing surface, but resulting from medication masking unsoundness.

[11cashcall]

In fact, one aspect of the study supported a growing sentiment in the veterinary community that the overuse of legal and illegal medications has imperiled the welfare of racehorses"


'We’ve run on dirt for centuries, and the window of opportunity of making dirt safer closed a long time ago,” Mandella said. “We have only had these tracks a couple of years, and we’re figuring out how to maintain them properly. We have no place but up to go.”

Excellent points.

[Show Me the Wire]

I believe AWS are safer for horses regarding catastrophic breakdowns for this specific reason. Fatigue. The more fatigue a horse experiences the greater the posibility of catastrophic injury.

Dirt, as everyone agrees, is a naturally more tiring surface. Everyday you see horses staggering in front to the wire, This struggle to the wire fighting through the fatigue, of muscles are being deprived of oxygen, puts to much stress on the limbs.

The severe fatigue is not as prominent on AWS, for whatever reason.

[andymays]

I believe AWS are safer for horses regarding catastrophic breakdowns for this specific reason. Fatigue. The more fatigue a horse experiences the greater the posibility of catastrophic injury.

Dirt, as everyone agrees, is a naturally more tiring surface. Everyday you see horses staggering in front to the wire, This struggle to the wire fighting through the fatigue, of muscles are being deprived of oxygen, puts to much stress on the limbs.

The severe fatigue is not as prominent on AWS, for whatever reason.


I think you have that a little backwards. A synthetic surface, especially when new (Oak Tree 2007) is much more tiring than a traditional dirt surface (Santa Anita 2006).

[Show Me the Wire]

I think you have that a little backwards. A synthetic surface, especially when new (Oak Tree 2007) is much more tiring than a traditional dirt surface (Santa Anita 2006).

Your opinion and that is fine. I see vastly more shortened strides on the unnatural dirt surfacess than AWS.

I look at horses action to determine fatigue not some number. However, I believe in the right hands, the amount of fatigue can be scientifically quantified, but not through speed figures.

[andymays]

Your opinion and that is fine. I see vastly more shortened strides on the unnatural dirt surfacess than AWS.

I look at horses action to determine fatigue not some number. However, I believe in the right hands, the amount of fatigue can be scientifically quantified, but not through speed figures.


In this case it's really a fact. ;)


So we won't take the thread in another direction I believe and I could be wrong that some Trainers will give their horses small amounts of tranquilizers in the morning so they won't be so much on the muscle and injure themeselves. I could be wrong about that but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.

[Show Me the Wire]

In this case it's really a fact. ;)
Okay, I will bite. Show me the empirical evidence. ;)

[andymays]

Okay, I will bite. Show me the empirical evidence. ;)


It is hard to believe you would want to argue this point. You're wrong! ;)


Back to the medication stuff!

[Show Me the Wire]

In this case it's really a fact. ;)


So we won't take the thread in another direction I believe and I could be wrong that some Trainers will give their horses small amounts of tranquilizers in the morning so they won't be so much on the muscle and injure themeselves. I could be wrong about that but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.

Some trainers do take the edge off as you suggest. A shot of vodka does the same.

Taking the edge off is not the same as masking injury pain through medication.

Think about what you posted. The relaxant is used to stop the horse from fatiguing itself.

[andymays]

Some trainers do take the edge off as you suggest. A shot of vodka does the same.

Taking the edge off is not the same as masking injury pain through medication.

Think about what you posted. The relaxant is used to stop the horse from fatiguing itself.


It's to prevent muscles from tying up and then causing an injury. You're right about the Vodka.

[Show Me the Wire]

It is hard to believe you would want to argue this point. You're wrong! ;)


Back to the medication stuff!

I asked for proof. Is that arguing?

[andymays]

I asked for proof. Is that arguing?


Are you serious? That's like asking me to prove the earth is round. It's common knowledge. You got this one wrong. Sythetic surfaces, especially when new are much more tiring than a traditional dirt surface. Move on! ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

[/B]


It's to prevent muscles from tying up and then causing an injury. You're right about the Vodka.

It is nice to know the terms.

Isn't that preventing fatgue too? What happens to the horse's muscles to cause the tying up?

Remember, I did not ask if nervousness, which is different than taking off the edge, causes a horse to tie up.

[andymays]

It is nice to know the terms.

Isn't that preventing fatgue too? What happens to the horse's muscles to cause the tying up?

Remember, I did not ask if nervousness, which is different than taking off the edge, causes a horse to tie up.


I surrender!

[Charlie D]

Show Me

If fatigue played a major part in breakdowns would not horses be falling like a pack of dominoes in a lot of Dirt races instead there just one here, one there???

[Show Me the Wire]

Show Me

If fatigue played a major part in breakdowns would not horses be falling like a pack of dominoes in a lot of Dirt races instead there just one here, one there???

I believe there are plenty of studies that fatigue plays a major role in injuries to human athletes. Horses are made of flesh, muscle and blood and fatigue more than likely plays the same role in equine athlete injuries as it does with humans.

Unfortunaetly horses do not communicate with us, in our verbal language, to tell how fatigued they may have felt or not have felt prior to their breakdown.

[Charlie D]

I do not know about Human Studies, but i would presume what you say is correct.


My point was that if fatigue were a major impact in a Dirt horse race we would see a lot more horse on ground than we actually do now.

In other words, the difference in injury numbers between surfaces would be significant instead of small.

[the_fat_man]

Let's use some common sense here. All other things being equal, a 'fatigued' horse doesn't necessary need to break down. If, once tired, this horse is allowed to ease up, then it shouldn't be any more a breakdown risk than any other horse.

If you add the jockey to the mix, however, you can clearly see WHY a tired horse can be more susceptible to breaking down. They put horses WIDE on the turn when there no need to. They have them OUTSIDE of horses, WITHOUT COVER, when they can easily draft, then put them wide again on the 2nd turn, and then proceed to beat the crap out of them in the stretch. The strides of tired horses are not as efficient. Tired horses are probably more prone to not changing leads. Busting on a horse that's staggering with the whip messes with its stride and forces it to do things it's not physically able to do. This is why there's no whipping of track and field athletes.:rolleyes:

Fine jocks with no regard to saving ground that like to whip excessively.

A good 1st step.

Teach trainers to let go of long held, outdated, training methods. Have them teach their horses to draft and run INSIDE when the opportunity arises. Too many idiots out there that know nothing more than INJECTING.

[LottaKash]

Some trainers do take the edge off as you suggest. A shot of vodka does the same.

Taking the edge off is not the same as masking injury pain through medication.

Think about what you posted. The relaxant is used to stop the horse from fatiguing itself.

I say "Baloney" to this....Show me one "human athlete" that needs a "shot of vodka" or a tranquilizer to do his or her athletics......IIn fact they are banned from doing so in "all" degrees of sports and on any level, at that....

Drugs for horses should be banned....All drugs, period...Especially "steriods"...Hey we ridicule and punish human athletes because of their use, but it is "OK" for horses ?....Baloney....

I say get rid of the "drugs" and then start studying fatalities & breakdowms of racehorses....But, we don't do it, because modern day man just "loves his drugs" and believes that his horse should have them too....So we''ll go on and train our horses wrong, and then medicate them, and then install more "fake-dirt", so that we can give them a tranquilizer to train them better.....Baloney....

best,

[DeanT]

Nice point Fat regarding injections.

IMO, it is all about the money and that is why we are changing things with bandaids. It is not at all like changing takeout, or all the rules in wagering - $$$. A couple of years ago there was a talk (I think they might be working on it still) about a genome project. The matings could be mapped and then blood drawn before sale showing a horses chance of breakdown by genetic marker. It would be right there in black and white and breeders, sales buyers or even trainers would know if a horse should be placed on the racetrack.

But it is a longshot because of the money.

What if some mating shows that there is a high incidence of breakdown and the sire is a good one worth millions? What if a broodmare who is a superstar shows the same thing? Those people want to be shown their multi million dollar horse is no good for the breed as much as they'd want a 1918 root canal in the Ukraine.

I think the money with breeding is the biggest hurdle to doing something. That is why we see synth tracks tried first; it is easier to do than fix the root problem of the breed. Horse racing is simply unable to bite the short term bullet for long term good (whether that be about takeout, using slots money for the future, injecting a hock instead of paddock time, or changing the breed) and it is a huge reason, maybe the only reason that the business is in such a mess.

[Show Me the Wire]

I say "Baloney" to this....Show me one "human athlete" that needs a "shot of vodka" or a tranquilizer to do his or her athletics......IIn fact they are banned from doing so in "all" degrees of sports and on any level, at that....

Drugs for horses should be banned....All drugs, period...Especially "steriods"...Hey we ridicule and punish human athletes because of their use, but it is "OK" for horses ?....Baloney....

I say get rid of the "drugs" and then start studying fatalities & breakdowms of racehorses....But, we don't do it, because modern day man just "loves his drugs" and believes that his horse should have them too....So we''ll go on and train our horses wrong, and then medicate them, and then install more "fake-dirt", so that we can give them a tranquilizer to train them better.....Baloney....

best,

Who said human athletes need a ahot of vodka? Andymays stated certain trainers do something, and I agreed with him that it happens. BTW I don't think human athletes tie up like horses.

[LottaKash]

Who said human athletes need a ahot of vodka? Andymays stated certain trainers do something, and I agreed with him that it happens. BTW I don't think human athletes tie up like horses.

You think not ?....I have been around sports and athletes most of my life, and I find that your statement doesn't hold up....Human atlhetes "tie-up" all the time, especially the ones that are poorly trained and aren't taking the time to heal properly...It is part of the training process, I suppose...

I am just being a wisenheimer in most other ways, but I am strongly opposed to "Drugs" in "all" Sports, not just in horse racing....If you can't play well, mildly hurt, than you shouldn't play....And, I honestly believe that the preponderance of modern day horse breakdowns and fatalities are closely related to "drugs", and a force fed & an ill conceived training regimen, and not so much the surfaces of the track....Some horses just shouldn't be racing lame, and their handlers should be shot for forcing them to do so...That is why drugs should be banned....Then we would know who the real lame ones are, wouldn't we ?...Then we could protect them from further harm....

best,

[Show Me the Wire]

You think not ?....I have been around sports and athletes most of my life, and I find that your statement doesn't hold up....Human atlhetes "tie-up" all the time, especially the ones that are poorly trained and aren't taking the time to heal properly...It is part of the training process, I suppose...


best,

Really, humans' tie-up and develop renal failure due to nerves without competing? That is a serious question.

[PaceAdvantage]

I see vastly more shortened strides on the unnatural dirt surfacess than AWS.Unnatural dirt surfaces?

[Cadillakin]

I think break downs most often occur when the "self-preservation reflex" of the horse is inhibited by medications and/or the animals own competitive nature. I also think the surface can forgive or enhance the danger to the horse in the given moment.

It is nearly indisputable that horses who have a lot of "try" in them will break down at a much higher rate than those who don't do their best. When that type of competitive horse is medicated, it is doubly dangerous... as the horse has two inhibitors working against his ability to properly perceive the warnings his body is trying to send him in the form of pain or exhaustion signals. That horse then becomes the equivalent of a teenage boy, drunk or high, engaging in a high speed car race with other teenage boys.. How do they know to decrease their speed and stop? They don't. They press on.

When otherwise sound horses like Eight Belles, Ruffian, Go For Wand and horses of their ilk go down in the heat of battle, I believe it is because of some kind of over-extension occurring that momentarily allows the animal to exceed their natural reach. In doing so, they perhaps create some form of misalignment and improper weight distribution that places catastrophic stress on the lower legs. I wonder.. does the surface underneath them mitigate these moments of impending catastrophe. Will the "give" in synthetics allow them to escape the danger that occurs when they strike the ground while misaligned and over reaching?

Eight Belles broke down just like Roving Boy.. simultaneously breaking both front legs. I've seen it occur about five times in my life...a horse breaking both front legs in one moment... and it always occurs with extremely competitive horses in the midst of full-out exertion. IMO, as long as there are horses who have that overpowering will to win, there will be racing break downs of this sort.. These horses will place themselves in jeopardy trying to win.

But medicating is a different proposition. It can be controlled. I believe we should do much better.

[Show Me the Wire]

Unnatural dirt surfaces?

Horses are pasture animals. grass or out west on desert sand. Of course there is dirt under the grass, but not the same type as track surfaces.