The Crux of the Matter

[Pell Mell]

Eisenhower's America was a nation of 160 million with a Euro-Christian core and a culture all its own. We were a people then. And when we have become, in 2050, a stew of 435 millions, of every creed, culture, color and country of Earth, what holds us together then?


I have often wondered how there can be strength in diversity with everyone pulling in a different direction. :confused:



http://townhall.com/columnists/PatBuchanan/2009/11/10/the_two_faces_of_maj_hasan

[jballscalls]

Eisenhower's America was a nation of 160 million with a Euro-Christian core and a culture all its own. We were a people then. And when we have become, in 2050, a stew of 435 millions, of every creed, culture, color and country of Earth, what holds us together then?


I have often wondered how there can be strength in diversity with everyone pulling in a different direction. :confused:



http://townhall.com/columnists/PatBuchanan/2009/11/10/the_two_faces_of_maj_hasan

what holds us together should be that we are all Americans. that we've gathered here to live a great life with our families, friends, neighbors and co workers.

We're not going back to the 50's and 60's no matter how much some people would like it. There is no turning back, you aren't going to be able to kick out all people of different culture's, religions, and sexual orientations and thank goodness for that. Because that would be very UnAmerican of us.

[Tom]

what holds us together should be that we are all Americans. that we've gathered here to live a great life with our families, friends, neighbors and co workers.



No we are not.

[jballscalls]

No we are not.

Oh, i thought we were both Americans, maybe i should check my papers.

Tom,

in relation to Post 1 in this thread, what are your feelings on what was said by Pell Mell? do you agree with him that diversity is a bad thing or do you think it adds something to america?

would you prefer that we were a country of the 50's and 60's America that Pell Mell talks about? If so, what do we do with all the legal Americans whom are minorities, non christians, non republicans and not part of his idealogical 50's America?

[Pell Mell]

what holds us together should be that we are all Americans. that we've gathered here to live a great life with our families, friends, neighbors and co workers.

We're not going back to the 50's and 60's no matter how much some people would like it. There is no turning back, you aren't going to be able to kick out all people of different culture's, religions, and sexual orientations and thank goodness for that. Because that would be very UnAmerican of us.

There are two worlds; The world as you would like it to be and the real world.
Get real!:faint:

[illinoisbred]

Being American used to be about being 1st rate,not 3rd rate. This is what we've become. My God, soon we will be no better than France.

[jballscalls]

There are two worlds; The world as you would like it to be and the real world.
Get real!:faint:

Whats quite humorous is that I feel the same way when i read your initial post. I was actually taken back that someone would post something like that and think that way. But I remembered that people are allowed to think and believe what they want and it's based off their life experiences.

I think the obvious thing is that your and my life experiences have been far different thus far, hence why we probably have a much different view of the world.

[jballscalls]

Being American used to be about being 1st rate,not 3rd rate. This is what we've become. My God, soon we will be no better than France.

Do you personally feel like a 3rd rate person? I dont. I feel i'm very much 1st rate. I feel my country is first rate and would rather live here than anywhere else on earth.

You must be a lefty Illinoisbred, because on this board i'm always told that it's the lefties who hate America, and by labeling us 3rd rate, you obviously dont think much of us as a country.

[Pell Mell]

Oh, i thought we were both Americans, maybe i should check my papers.

Thank you, you just nailed the problem. If everyone wanted to be an American, that would be great, but they don't!
People used to come here to be Americans but no more. They come for what America offers but their allegiance is to the country they came from. For instance, I read a poll recently where people were asked what came first, America or the country they came from. The Mexicans said Mexico and others forllowed the same pattern.

So don't give me that crap that we're all Americans.:bang:

[GaryG]

Being American used to be about being 1st rate,not 3rd rate. This is what we've become. My God, soon we will be no better than France.France? How about Rwanda? A post by bigmack a few weeks ago showed how illegal aliens are bleeding this country of its resources. The facts are there. We got strength through diversity when evryone pulled their own weight. We have an administration that can't give money away fast enough, money we don't have. St. Peter dob't call me cause I can't go....I owe my soul to the chinese commies.

[jballscalls]

Thank you, you just nailed the problem. If everyone wanted to be an American, that would be great, but they don't!
People used to come here to be Americans but no more. They come for what America offers but their allegiance is to the country they came from. For instance, I read a poll recently where people were asked what came first, America or the country they came from. The Mexicans said Mexico and others forllowed the same pattern.

So don't give me that crap that we're all Americans.:bang:

your original post though said nothing about papers or legal status. It talked about Diversity and what an apparent not great thing it was. I disagree. I like walking down my streets and seeing all sorts of people. I like being able to go to Cuban restaurants with food cooked by actual Cubans.

I do agree with your point about country of origin loyalty. there are many here that use America for it's good points, yet still feel utmost loyalty to their country of origin.

I remember Howard Stern a couple weeks ago complaining about the Puerto Rican parade. He said "why do you come here if you want to just celebrate the craphole you just moved from?"

I'm a big believer that we should get rid of all parades period, they are annoying and block traffic

[Pell Mell]

I'm a big believer that we should get rid of all parades period, they are annoying and block traffic.

And that's what you worry about, parades?

Enough said :lol:

[jballscalls]

I'm a big believer that we should get rid of all parades period, they are annoying and block traffic.

And that's what you worry about, parades?

Enough said :lol:

yeah parades effect me negatively, thus i hate them. I dont think we should allow people here illegally either to agree with you later points.

but your original post had nothing to do with illegal or legal people. It said only about how America was great when it was euro-christian base and that diversity is a bad thing. I wasn't around then, but i'm sure America was amazingly fantastic, as it is now! that was the post i took exception to and had a disagreement with. we're on the same page with illegals.

Obama is not America, he's simply one American (atleast until the birth certificate fiasco gets discovered) there are many many millions who share his beliefs, and many who disagree with them. I dont know about you, but my day isn't spent worrying about Obama and his love or hatred of America or about illegals. It's spent enjoying my limited time here, spending time with those i love, doing activities that i love, getting to talk about horse racing at work and here, enjoying amazing food and working on making myself a better and happier person. In the end, the freedoms of America will always be there. Obama and his people will never be able to take that away. And guess what, when they try to limit our freedoms as they have in some cases, they will get their asses voted out in 2012 and things will get put back to order. But in the meantime, America still rocks!

[Pell Mell]

I wasn't around then, but I'm sure America was amazingly fantastic, as it is now! that was the post i took exception to and had a disagreement with.


The rest of your post does show you can think so let me say this about the above quote.

If you had been around then you would never make that statement. I think I am speaking for those who have been fortunate enough to have lived through those years, as well as myself.

When it comes to wonderful, there is no comparison. I'm talking about every day life.

I graduated high school in 1950. Of course, nobody drove to school because damn few had a car. We walked to school in bunches, blacks and whites together. We had sports leagues of all kinds and the teams were mostly a mix of black and white. We all got along.

We didn't have to lock our doors at night and you could park your car on the street at night with the keys in it. You could walk anywhere you wanted, day or night, with no fear.

I went to country schools where we brought our shotguns to school and stood them in the hall so we could go hunting right after school.

If you had a fist fight there was no weapons involved even though many of us had guns. I could walk into Sears when i was 14 and buy a gun and ammo and never get asked my name. There was NEVER a school shooting.

I could go on and on all day but you get the idea.

Me and a lot like me have been where you are but you've never been where we've been, so you have nothing to compare to. In all sincerity, I wish you could experience what life was like in this country back then.

I feel like I'm living on another planet!

[Tom]

Oh, i thought we were both Americans, maybe i should check my papers.

Tom,

in relation to Post 1 in this thread, what are your feelings on what was said by Pell Mell? do you agree with him that diversity is a bad thing or do you think it adds something to america?

would you prefer that we were a country of the 50's and 60's America that Pell Mell talks about? If so, what do we do with all the legal Americans whom are minorities, non christians, non republicans and not part of his idealogical 50's America?

Legal immigration is a great thing. You come here, you join our culture, you live better, you enhance us. Back bone of our nation.
You sneak in here, live in groups that refuse to learn the language, destroy our health care system by flooding emergency rooms......or, you are born here, you call our troops murderers, you run around the world apologizing for us, you call concerned citizens astro turf, you ignore the will of the people........that is not good.
Diversity is not good or bad. Italians, Chinnese, Irish, Africans, all can live together and share a common cutlute. That is good. Most of what is going on today is not.

I tell you this, I want no part of any America that accepts OBama and people that that swallow his line as part of it. Or Pelosi. Or Mutha. We have millions of people who tin they are entitled to have others carry them. That is not good.

[boxcar]

Do you personally feel like a 3rd rate person? I dont. I feel i'm very much 1st rate. I feel my country is first rate and would rather live here than anywhere else on earth.

You must be a lefty Illinoisbred, because on this board i'm always told that it's the lefties who hate America, and by labeling us 3rd rate, you obviously dont think much of us as a country.

The fact that you still feel or think we're first rate, tells me clearly that you haven't been paying close attention to politics in this country. You're like the proverbial frog in a very slow, simmering pot. You've become so accustomed to the gradual heat that you can't even recognize it as heat anymore.

Boxcar

[illinoisbred]

Diversity is great,assimilation should or must follow. If they don't assimilate ,they're not American.

[cj's dad]

The rest of your post does show you can think so let me say this about the above quote.

If you had been around then you would never make that statement. I think I am speaking for those who have been fortunate enough to have lived through those years, as well as myself.

When it comes to wonderful, there is no comparison. I'm talking about every day life.

I graduated high school in 1950. Of course, nobody drove to school because damn few had a car. We walked to school in bunches, blacks and whites together. We had sports leagues of all kinds and the teams were mostly a mix of black and white. We all got along.

We didn't have to lock our doors at night and you could park your car on the street at night with the keys in it. You could walk anywhere you wanted, day or night, with no fear.

I went to country schools where we brought our shotguns to school and stood them in the hall so we could go hunting right after school.

If you had a fist fight there was no weapons involved even though many of us had guns. I could walk into Sears when i was 14 and buy a gun and ammo and never get asked my name. There was NEVER a school shooting.

I could go on and on all day but you get the idea.

Me and a lot like me have been where you are but you've never been where we've been, so you have nothing to compare to. In all sincerity, I wish you could experience what life was like in this country back then.

I feel like I'm living on another planet!



I lived in an ethnic neighborhood; Poles, Germans, Ukranians, Irish etc...
we got along for the most part. There were fights but there was respect also. Folks looked out for one another. You dare not talk back to an adult in the 'hood for fear of an ass whoopin'. The elderly who still were fairly new to the country struggled to speak English, but at least they tried.

Life was simple then. Go to school (unafraid), return home, mom waiting, go outside and play, come home when dad got in from work, eat dinner, go back outside, come in do homework watch tv and go to bed. No A/C in the summer, but you still slept well because you're tired from playing and running around the neighborhood.

Somehow, we survived without the video games, cell phones, ipods, laptops, and so on. We interacted and actually had friends that we talked to in person.

I never knew what a babysitter was, mom was always home, or so it seemed.
Now moms have to work because society has placed such a great emphasis on material possessions.

Too many children are raised by nannies or raise themselves.

Drugs, violence and gangs are rampant in the cities.

Illegals are draining our resources yet steadfastly cling to their native origins.

JBC, this is NOT the same country of my youth. Unfortunately you don't have that experience for a comparison. The downhill trend that we are now going through is, I think, irreversible.

God, I hope I'm wrong but I fear I am not.

[jballscalls]

The fact that you still feel or think we're first rate, tells me clearly that you haven't been paying close attention to politics in this country. You're like the proverbial frog in a very slow, simmering pot. You've become so accustomed to the gradual heat that you can't even recognize it as heat anymore.

Boxcar

another personal attack from boxcar, now i'm a frog LOLOL just kidding.

I'm sorry but in my opinion politics dont shape the country, we Americans as citizens do and our interpretation of things shape our viewpoints.

Maybe i'm young and naive, but i see things pretty much how i've always seen them, because that's been my experience. I can still do whatever I want and deem proper within the laws and within the morals that were instilled in me by my parents, friends and others. I guess I just still think America is great

[ddog]

I lived in an ethnic neighborhood; Poles, Germans, Ukranians, Irish etc...
we got along for the most part. There were fights but there was respect also. Folks looked out for one another. You dare not talk back to an adult in the 'hood for fear of an ass whoopin'. The elderly who still were fairly new to the country struggled to speak English, but at least they tried.

Life was simple then. Go to school (unafraid), return home, mom waiting, go outside and play, come home when dad got in from work, eat dinner, go back outside, come in do homework watch tv and go to bed. No A/C in the summer, but you still slept well because you're tired from playing and running around the neighborhood.

Somehow, we survived without the video games, cell phones, ipods, laptops, and so on. We interacted and actually had friends that we talked to in person.

I never knew what a babysitter was, mom was always home, or so it seemed.
Now moms have to work because society has placed such a great emphasis on material possessions.

Too many children are raised by nannies or raise themselves.

Drugs, violence and gangs are rampant in the cities.

Illegals are draining our resources yet steadfastly cling to their native origins.

JBC, this is NOT the same country of my youth. Unfortunately you don't have that experience for a comparison. The downhill trend that we are now going through is, I think, irreversible.

God, I hope I'm wrong but I fear I am not.


You pegged it very well. Maybe a tad over generous , but that's always the case.

That's why gvt run HC is not so bad, who wants to live forever , really?
;)

[boxcar]

another personal attack from boxcar, now i'm a frog LOLOL just kidding.

I'm sorry but in my opinion politics dont shape the country, we Americans as citizens do and our interpretation of things shape our viewpoints.

So, then, in your worldview, nothing really ever changes? It's all in our perception of things -- its merely all in our interpretation of events? Let's take an extreme example to make a point: Let's say BO declared martial law and kept that in place indefinitely. Do you think that that kind of political decision would "shape" this country very differently? Do you think this kind of decision would universally impact our lives? Or would it just be our interpretation of that kind of event?

Maybe i'm young and naive, but i see things pretty much how i've always seen them, because that's been my experience.

Since by your own admission your experience is quite limited, then, perhaps it would behoove you to at least listen to those whose frame of reference is larger than yours -- to those of us who have lived longer.


I can still do whatever I want and deem proper within the laws and within the morals that were instilled in me by my parents, friends and others. I guess I just still think America is great

You should try break out of this bubble and broaden your horizons. There was a very different American way of life prior to your birth date, and it has very slowly evolved into what it is now. Just because you can't relate to some past era doesn't change the fact that things were different back then.
Life was appreciably simpler back then, and one of the major reason for this was that the government wasn't nearly as intrusive as it is now. There weren't nearly as many laws on the books 40 years ago as there is now. Just this fact alone makes life today a lot more complicated.

Boxcar

[jballscalls]

So, then, in your worldview, nothing really ever changes? It's all in our perception of things -- its merely all in our interpretation of events? Let's take an extreme example to make a point: Let's say BO declared martial law and kept that in place indefinitely. Do you think that that kind of political decision would "shape" this country very differently? Do you think this kind of decision would universally impact our lives? Or would it just be our interpretation of that kind of event?



Since by your own admission your experience is quite limited, then, perhaps it would behoove you to at least listen to those whose frame of reference is larger than yours -- to those of us who have lived longer.




You should try break out of this bubble and broaden your horizons. There was a very different American way of life prior to your birth date, and it has very slowly evolved into what it is now. Just because you can't relate to some past era doesn't change the fact that things were different back then.
Life was appreciably simpler back then, and one of the major reason for this was that the government wasn't nearly as intrusive as it is now. There weren't nearly as many laws on the books 40 years ago as there is now. Just this fact alone makes life today a lot more complicated.

Boxcar

I understand what your saying and agree with you. And i do listen to most of you guys with a few exceptions to people who have proven that they are pretty much certifiably nuts. I'm just talking for conversations sake and speaking up because i disagree on some things.

It's proven that most everyone longs for their youth and more simpler times. I still wish i could go back to Longacres and watch the races there again, but i can't. and Nothing can change that.

Just like you can't bring back the 50's or 60's because far too much has changed since then, and there is no turning back. you can't reverse technology, you can't bring back those times, you can't bring back a time where everyone was Christian. Those times are gone, but you have the right to keep those ideals and beliefs alive in your life, and i'm sure there are still plenty of places to live where those beliefs are shared by a huge majority of people. Just as there are places where those ways of life are scoffed at and are thought of as archaic. It's America, we get to choose what we want.

[ddog]

as a proud nut, you may want to not reject out of hand the nuts of the world.

many who you admire(i would expect) may have been the nuts of that time!


simple world, no NOT then and NOT now.

[boxcar]

as a proud nut, you may want to not reject out of hand the nuts of the world.

many who you admire(i would expect) may have been the nuts of that time!


simple world, no NOT then and NOT now.

Okay...since everything is relative, would you say that American life in the last half century has

a) become more complicated?
b) become less complicated?
c) remained essentially unchanged?

Boxcar

[Dave Schwartz]

Balls,

I contend that we are, in fact, a country of Americans. However, many have a higher allegiance to something else.

May are democrats or republicans before they are Americans. This is evidenced by the polarization which is so apparent in our society today.

Many are ethnic before being American. That's why we have Afro-Americans, Asian-Americans, Hispanic Americans, etc. Certainly this country was founded on diversity, but things HAVE changed.

The change lies in the fact that historically emigrants arriving in the U.S. could not wait to truly integrate into American society. One need not look far to see that they kept much of their ethnic heritage. Consider Manhattan's little Italy, the Irish of Boston or the Polish in Chicago.

Things are different now. Today's emigrant has no desire to integrate into America. Remember how America was once referred to as a "mixing bowl?" A few years ago one of my children's elementary school teachers told me, "We aren't a mixing bowl any more. We're more of a 'salad bowl'."


So, you're right. The America of the '50s and '60s IS gone forever, replaced by one that has very little in common with those decades.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[46zilzal]

Read the very informative book American Theocracy to find many of the historical correlates to today's polarizations. A very informative book especially noting the beginnings of the NORTH/SOUTH schism in what was to become the USA as far back as 1650

[Tom]

I think he is talking about the 1950s. :D

[Pell Mell]

I understand what your saying and agree with you. And i do listen to most of you guys with a few exceptions to people who have proven that they are pretty much certifiably nuts. I'm just talking for conversations sake and speaking up because i disagree on some things.

It's proven that most everyone longs for their youth and more simpler times. I still wish i could go back to Longacres and watch the races there again, but i can't. and Nothing can change that.

Just like you can't bring back the 50's or 60's because far too much has changed since then, and there is no turning back. you can't reverse technology, you can't bring back those times, you can't bring back a time where everyone was Christian. Those times are gone, but you have the right to keep those ideals and beliefs alive in your life, and I'm sure there are still plenty of places to live where those beliefs are shared by a huge majority of people. Just as there are places where those ways of life are scoffed at and are thought of as archaic. It's America, we get to choose what we want.

Your right about different places to live. I was born and raised in NJ and it was a great place to live back then. As the years went by I, and others, found there was more and more intrusion into our lives by govt. every year. Every thing from zoning laws, DMV laws, etc. If I went into a store I couldn't understand what people were saying 90% of the time. The rude aggressive behavior of people you come in contact with on a daily basis. And, the road rage on a daily basis.

When I said I was moving to TN I was questioned as to why I would go there. I told them I was going back to America.

Now I suppose that it may be bad in west TN in the urban areas and such but I chose a place in the Smokey Mts of E. TN. Let me tell you what I found; I have been here 6 yrs and have yet to see anyone give the finger or blow a horn. People will stop and let you out of your driveway or a store. The stores are clean and the help is very friendly and polite. In the supermarkets they take your stuff out of the shopping cart and will carry your stuff to your car. Everybody speaks english and the high school has a 95% graduation record.

My car ins. dropped 30% for more coverage. I don't have to take my car for inspection. My license fees are about 1/7 of what they were in NJ. I haven't seen any road rage yet. If I want to build something in, on or around my house I don't need a permit. If I want to buy or carry a gun there's no problem. I feel free here but I also know it won't last too much longer. The county I live in is called the lock-and-load last holdout. There aren't many places left like this but I guess it will last as long as I will.

[ddog]

Okay...since everything is relative, would you say that American life in the last half century has

a) become more complicated?
b) become less complicated?
c) remained essentially unchanged?

Boxcar


You are correct ;)

[boxcar]

You are correct ;)

You didn't have to waste time or bandwidth to state the obvious. Instead, you should have been working on providing a genuine answer to my well-conceived multiple choice questions. :)

Boxcar