View Full Version : Imagine what could have been...
...if Zenyatta's connections had shown just a little ambition this year!
Judge Gallivan
11-08-2009, 02:14 PM
Wasn't there some talk that she might race next year in Florida while in foal.
Was it for real or did I imagine it? Did any reporter ask Moss that question?
How great would be if RA and Z met in the Donn?
I'm expecting a retirement announcement, but it would be great if they kept going.
Moyers Pond
11-08-2009, 02:18 PM
...if Zenyatta's connections had shown just a little ambition this year!
They showed ambition last year when they had to and they traveled East to take on the champion and beat her.
This year she was the champion and people had to travel to take her on.
The clueless "the world revolves around east coast racing" crowd think champions need to travel out to take on some 3yr old filly is laughable.
If Rachel wanted HOY she had to come out and beat the undefeated champion, neither of which she was, undefeated or a champion.
They showed ambition last year when they had to and they traveled East to take on the champion and beat her.
This year she was the champion and people had to travel to take her on.
The clueless "the world revolves around east coast racing" crowd think champions need to travel out to take on some 3yr old filly is laughable.
If Rachel wanted HOY she had to come out and beat the undefeated champion, neither of which she was, undefeated or a champion.
Arkansas is in the east? Really? I guess I live in the Appalachians then.
She was undefeated this year...again, last year doesn't count. Should I type it slower?
If during Cigar's run they switched the Classic to a turf course, does that mean he should have shown up and ran?
Judge Gallivan
11-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Yes, especially now they won't risk the perfect record.
I'm a big Zenyatta fan and I was disappointed with her schedule up until the BCC.
I wonder if Moss will ' pull a Jackson' and only breed her to Giacomo? I hope not.!
PaceAdvantage
11-08-2009, 08:34 PM
If during Cigar's run they switched the Classic to a turf course, does that mean he should have shown up and ran?How this point continues to be lost on many boggles my mind.
It's as if a significant portion of the fan base now considers artificial dirt equivalent to real dirt.
It's as if all the controversies and negatives surrounding artificial dirt somehow were eliminated with Zenyatta getting up to beat Gio Ponti yesterday.
DeanT
11-08-2009, 08:50 PM
How this point continues to be lost on many boggles my mind.
It's as if a significant portion of the fan base now considers artificial dirt equivalent to real dirt.
It's as if all the controversies and negatives surrounding artificial dirt somehow were eliminated with Zenyatta getting up to beat Gio Ponti yesterday.
I don't think it is that at all. Let me ask you - where was the outcry about "plastic" and "dirt" last year when Curlin went? There was nary a peep.
This year Jess Jackson chose to make it an issue and some chose to follow him and bang a drum. He took a filly that was undefeated on synthetic (let us never forget that) and used her to turn the event at Santa Anita this year into a pariah to forward his vision for racing. He is getting critcized now, moreso than he was earlier in the year, but that is what happens when you use racehorses to make political points.
Cadillakin
11-08-2009, 08:53 PM
I don't think it is that at all. Let me ask you - where was the outcry about "plastic" and "dirt" last year when Curlin went? There was nary a peep.
This year Jess Jackson chose to make it an issue and some chose to follow him and bang a drum. He took a filly that was undefeated on synthetic (let us never forget that) and used her to turn the event at Santa Anita this year into a pariah to forward his vision for racing. He is getting critcized now, moreso than he was earlier in the year, but that is what happens when you use racehorses to make political points.
Co-sign.
Stillriledup
11-08-2009, 08:58 PM
How this point continues to be lost on many boggles my mind.
It's as if a significant portion of the fan base now considers artificial dirt equivalent to real dirt.
It's as if all the controversies and negatives surrounding artificial dirt somehow were eliminated with Zenyatta getting up to beat Gio Ponti yesterday.
Co sign
OntheRail
11-08-2009, 09:10 PM
I don't think it is that at all. Let me ask you - where was the outcry about "plastic" and "dirt" last year when Curlin went? There was nary a peep.
This year Jess Jackson chose to make it an issue and some chose to follow him and bang a drum. He took a filly that was undefeated on synthetic (let us never forget that) and used her to turn the event at Santa Anita this year into a pariah to forward his vision for racing. He is getting critcized now, moreso than he was earlier in the year, but that is what happens when you use racehorses to make political points.
Jackson did not own RA when she ran at Keenland... if he had she may not of run. And that surface is not like SA in any way other then being not natural. Just saying ;)
Steve 'StatMan'
11-08-2009, 09:31 PM
How this point continues to be lost on many boggles my mind.
It's as if a significant portion of the fan base now considers artificial dirt equivalent to real dirt.
It's as if all the controversies and negatives surrounding artificial dirt somehow were eliminated with Zenyatta getting up to beat Gio Ponti yesterday.
Cosine (math joke, but want to avoid another 'tangent')
What if Zenyatta couldn't get through at Gio Ponti won the race - great turf season, would have been a great 2-surface season for him? Would it have been RA, GP or Z for a great season and great try in traffic?
Glad I don't have to vote for HOY. 2009 was a year of great horses and great racing, for those that wished to enjoy it.
I don't think it is that at all. Let me ask you - where was the outcry about "plastic" and "dirt" last year when Curlin went? There was nary a peep.
This year Jess Jackson chose to make it an issue and some chose to follow him and bang a drum. He took a filly that was undefeated on synthetic (let us never forget that) and used her to turn the event at Santa Anita this year into a pariah to forward his vision for racing. He is getting critcized now, moreso than he was earlier in the year, but that is what happens when you use racehorses to make political points.
It was certainly and issue and was discussed here and other places many times. I don't know a single successful handicapper that thought Curlin had a chance on that stuff, and most of those same people think he would have been a legit 1 to 5 to win on dirt.
This is what I wrote about him on my site:
"Who will be Horse of the Year? If Curlin wins, it will be him, if not, probably Ladies Classic winner Zenyatta. I loved Curlin last year, but I think he will get beat here. If this race were on dirt, it would be a walk over, but I think he will struggle on synthetics."
DeanT
11-08-2009, 10:53 PM
Not my point CJ. My point was the hypocrisy of Mr. Jackson and his use of his mare as a pawn versus last year with Curlin. 12 months ago the racetrack was not an issue to him.
Quote from 2008 and the decision to race in the BC at SA: . "I owe it to the horse. Curlin tells us he's fit. He loves to compete.
Quote at his retirement about his legacy: "Curlin ran for the fans, for the sport, for his own pleasure of competition, and, I believe, to express his loyalty and desire to please. He ran on all surfaces, in all weather, against all competition."
Quote with Rachel in 2009: " "These false tracks create potential for injury, a risk that I am not willing to take with Rachel."
He owned his horses and he can do what he wants, that goes without saying. But no one can look at those two quotes and reasonably not agree that it is pure hypocrisy, and he was trying to sell us a bill of goods.
Cadillakin
11-08-2009, 10:56 PM
Jackson did not own RA when she ran at Keenland... if he had she may not of run. And that surface is not like SA in any way other then being not natural. Just saying ;)
You might want to rethink that one...
She Be Wild, Informed Decision, Ventura, Mushka, Noble's Promise, and Ready's Echo, all ran winning or near-winning races over the Pro-Ride and all had excellent Keeneland form.. There were others too. Life is Sweet ran a great race at Keeneland after having big problems at the gate.. Beautician, Negligee and some others all ran very well over the Pro Ride and they also had good Keeneland form. There seems to be a definite affinity between those surfaces.
Ignore that data .. if you wish.
Not my point CJ. My point was the hypocrisy of Mr. Jackson and his use of his mare as a pawn versus last year with Curlin. 12 months ago the racetrack was not an issue to him.
Quote from 2008 and the decision to race in the BC at SA: . "I owe it to the horse. Curlin tells us he's fit. He loves to compete.
Quote at his retirement about his legacy: "Curlin ran for the fans, for the sport, for his own pleasure of competition, and, I believe, to express his loyalty and desire to please. He ran on all surfaces, in all weather, against all competition."
Quote with Rachel in 2009: " "These false tracks create potential for injury, a risk that I am not willing to take with Rachel."
He owned his horses and he can do what he wants, that goes without saying. But no one can look at those two quotes and reasonably not agree that it is pure hypocrisy, and he was trying to sell us a bill of goods.
But it was an issue, and it wasn't decided Curlin was going until pretty late. It isn't like he won the JCGC and it was decided immediately he would run. Even before that, people seem to forget he tried the turf because they were actually considering the Arc (ridiculous, I know) instead of the Classic. Only his mediocre effort there changed the plans.
You have to at least admit it is possible he learned more about synthetics and injuries in an additional year, don't you? We haven't had them very long so I think he was entitled to change his mind.
WinterTriangle
11-08-2009, 11:06 PM
"Imagine what could have been..."
from a philosophical view I don't go there.
I've sat with people who think about that stuff, whether it be relationships, opportunities, wagers they didn't win, jobs they turned down. All bummers.
Better to think about "what could BE"....thinking forward to the future. Healthier mind-set, IMHO.
I forsee lots of great stuff to look forward to in horse racing. If it doesn't include Zenyatta, so be it. I enjoyed what I got.
(I catch myself almost going there sometimes, like this weekend, I did well, but needed a larger bankroll. I immediately switched my thoughts to how I would build my bankroll for next year, and how much it would be.) (Big, LOL!)
Quote at his retirement about his legacy: "Curlin ran for the fans, for the sport, for his own pleasure of competition, and, I believe, to express his loyalty and desire to please. He ran on all surfaces, in all weather, against all competition."
Which is why Curlin got the awards and accolades, worldwide, that he got. :ThmbUp: It appears Jackson knows the magic formula, but is unwilling to use it?
chickenhead
11-08-2009, 11:12 PM
How this point continues to be lost on many boggles my mind.
It's as if a significant portion of the fan base now considers artificial dirt equivalent to real dirt.
To me it has nothing to do with equivalency -- it exists, they are running on it, and they ran the biggest race in North America on it. There is no doubt this whole synthetic/dirt thing has changed racing, and we have a schism on our hands.
The most important race in North America is the Breeders Cup Classic, and it has been run on synthetics 2 years in a row. The Classic is no longer the most important DIRT race in America. Right? It's still the most important race in America, it hasn't been a dirt race for 2 years. Love it or hate it, that's the kind of thing we're gonna be facing from time to time, until we are either once again all dirt at A level tracks, or all synthetic. Until that happens, we can only:
A: Say dirt is real, and nothing else matters
B: Pretend they are the same
C: Admit the surfaces are clearly not the same, but extend stellar performers on each equal claims to greatness. This of course requires that horses that prefer syth aren't viewed as second class citizens -- which certainly hasn't been the case, and probably won't be any time soon.
The future of all this really depends on only one thing -- are synth surfaces going to get torn out or expanded upon? Opinions will ultimately follow that.
WinterTriangle
11-08-2009, 11:17 PM
It's as if a significant portion of the fan base now considers artificial dirt equivalent to real dirt.
No, they just insist on handicapping it the same. (ducks :) )
There are some really good synth handicappers on PaceAdvantage, and other sources. I'm trying to learn something from them. From my reading, they don't seem to think its equivalent, hence, they are winning on it?
PaceAdvantage
11-09-2009, 02:48 AM
No, they just insist on handicapping it the same. (ducks :) )Handicapping has nothing to do with it...
PaceAdvantage
11-09-2009, 02:54 AM
C: Admit the surfaces are clearly not the same, but extend stellar performers on each equal claims to greatness. This of course requires that horses that prefer syth aren't viewed as second class citizens -- which certainly hasn't been the case, and probably won't be any time soon.
The future of all this really depends on only one thing -- are synth surfaces going to get torn out or expanded upon? Opinions will ultimately follow that.Ever since I've been a fan of racing (and this goes back to the late '80s), it has always been that dirt runners were first class citizens and turf runners were second class citizens.
If there was a top dirt runner out there, then there was no way a top turf runner was going to get HOY. Only if there were no top dirt standouts, did a turf runner have any shot at getting HOY honors.
To me, that's as it should be, as most of your top races in America are run on dirt.
I view synthetics as really a THIRD CLASS surface, behind even turf here in America. Call me crazy, but that's how I see it...
To imagine how I view all of this, simply take the BC Classic and run it on the TURF. And then perhaps you'll understand how I see the BC Classic being run on synthetics.
chickenhead
11-09-2009, 08:47 AM
I know that -- it's not hard to understand, I think it's the prevalent view. I probably share it, I just think it raises some interesting questions about how all that gets decided.
They ARE doing it, many top races ARE being run on synthetic currently. If that is going to continue (i.e. if they aren't going to tear them out) then at some point everyone is probably going to have to come to terms with horses like Zenyatta, and figure out what exactly a fabulously good synthetic runner is "worth". Normally I think very little of them, but Zenyatta does make me consider the fairness of that -- she is an outstanding generational type horse.
I think the arguments about her weak schedule are obviously correct -- but I don't think they are the real argument. If she had shipped around the synthetic circuit and dusted the boys a few times at several tracks, I don't think the argument would really be any different.
The real argument against her is that she hasn't been a dirt horse.
vBulletin® v3.8.9, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.