HOY

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I have to say that Rachel Alexandra is no slam dunk anymore.

[lamboguy]

with all due respect, RACHEL ALEXANDRA should be a slam dunk for horse of the year. she had a tough campagn and shined every single moment of it. i really wonder what it takes for you guys to look at the glass being half full instead of half empty. we have a horse that won all her prep races this year, she onthe kentucky oaks, she won the preakness stakes, she won the haskell and then she did the impossible she won the woodward. she is such a layup to win its pretty comical to listen to people that doubt the credibility of this horse.


no doubt ZENYATTA is great and also had great accomplishments. some of you people went out on the limb and knocked the reasons why i thought she was a cinch to win he breeders cup. now the same people that doubted ZENYATTA are now coming out of the woodworks and telling me that she was that great and deserves horse of the year. great horse yes, synthetic specialist like no other yes, horse of the year NO. horse of the year belongs to RACHEL.

[Overlay]

Maybe this would be a year for co-HOY's. (Or is that possible with the way the voting system is set up?)

[DJofSD]

Z came to play while RA did not.

'Nuff said.

[ghostyapper]

It should be a close race. I can't understand why anyone is saying it shouldn't be or that it's no debate.

Both horses accomplished major things this year. They are both deserving.

[Bobzilla]

Maybe this would be a year for co-HOY's. (Or is that possible with the way the voting system is set up?)

I was thinking along the same lines, wondering if voters could be provided with a "both" option, as it would appear with the current system a very deserving horse is going to be denied this honor. But then I started to think that a "both" option would set a bad precedent as it might minimize the value of the honor and may also be abused in subsequent years. No easy answer on this one and I understand most of the arguments from both sides.

[Fingal]

Z came to play while RA did not.

'Nuff said.

As Trevor said it- " This is UNBELIVABLE !!! "

The Breeder's Cup was set up to crown champions, not reward those like JJ that played a prevent defense.

[Grits]

Maybe this would be a year for co-HOY's. (Or is that possible with the way the voting system is set up?)

A friend noted from Wikapedia:

Official voting for Horse of the Year honors did not begin until 1936 when the American Daily Racing Form (DRF) began choosing a Horse of the Year. In 1950, the Thoroughbred Racing Associations of North America (TRA) inaugurated its own Horse of the Year award. These voting procedures meant there were co-champions in 1949, 1952, 1957, 1965, and 1970.

[FantasticDan]

As Trevor said it- " This is UNBELIVABLE !!! "

The Breeder's Cup was set up to crown champions, not reward those like JJ that played a prevent defense.
Winning eight races (3 vs. males) on seven different tracks over the course of a campaign is prevent defense? :lol: :lol:

Zenyatta stayed in CA all year on her speciality surface that 3/4 horses can't handle and won five races, only one vs. males.

It's not close.

[46zilzal]

Z came to play while RA did not.

'Nuff said.
exactly right. ONE dared to be tested to the LIMIT, the other watched.

[Marshall Bennett]

How could a filly slam dunk all competition including the classic , be 14 for 14 , and not take the award hands down ? HOY is a slam dunk as well .

[Moyers Pond]

Rachel need to win the 10f Jockey Club Gold Cup for me, and then I would have maybe bought the no synthetic excuse.

Her owner didn't want to risk losing and risking HOY. But Zenyatta did something he thought she wouldn't do.

It really is a slam dunk. Zenyatta is HOY. She is undefeated this year and won the biggest race in the world. Pretty simple.

Rachel has next year, although I don't think she can win the 10f Classic on dirt or synthetic. She is not a 10f horse.

[LottaKash]

I gave the nod to RA over Z, simply because she beat a much more diverse group of horses in much more diverse places this year....As for Z, she proved her prowess alright, still, we probably will never know if she is just a monster "horse for course" (or surface) or if she could or couldn't beat any others on any other surface or place other than in Cali on her "surface".... One race doesn't make it imo..

They both "won" a spot in my memory bank of great ones.... A "Good Season" for fan interest this year...Enjoyed all the hype and such...:jump:

best,

[ezrabrooks]

Winning eight races (3 vs. males) on seven different tracks over the course of a campaign is prevent defense? :lol: :lol:

Zenyatta stayed in CA all year on her speciality surface that 3/4 horses can't handle and won five races, only one vs. males.

It's not close.

She ran in one unrestricted race..got eight pounds, and was life or death to beat Macho Again... Zenyatta did the same, but won the biggest race of the year..

[FantasticDan]

Damn, I keep forgetting that Macho Again, the 4yo with over 1.8M in earnings and G1/G2 wins and handful of G1/G2 placings, is basically just a decent allowance horse. My mistake. :p

[Fingal]

Winning eight races (3 vs. males) on seven different tracks over the course of a campaign is prevent defense? :lol: :lol:

Zenyatta stayed in CA all year on her speciality surface that 3/4 horses can't handle and won five races, only one vs. males.

It's not close.

My opinion.

Prevent defense: not running in the BC. JJ saying that she can't handle synthetics which was strange because Rachel won a race earlier in her career on Poly. IMO the definition of class is the ability to overcome real or imagined adversity. Unless Z has a time machine, she wasn't eligible for two of those races ( Preakness & Haskell ) where Rachel beat the boys. How many times did Rachel get a weight break in her races because of her age & sex ? How many times did Z ? When did Rachel carry 129 lbs. ?

Just felt it was some other things to consider.

[Hanover1]

We all discussed the fact that if Z won the BCC, that it would cause many to jump on her bandwagon for HOY simply because RA did not show. It is amazing how many have, or are willing to forget, RA and her acomplishments, after being impressed with her win in said race. 1 race does not define a champion for the year, and the 14 streak should not be a factor in the voting, as it encompasses 2 years, not 1 (the year that will be voted on...) Z wins older mare, hands down, but HOY may be a stretch. RA acomplished more, and had more starts, ect......

[toussaud]

if tiznow could not win it in 2001, than zenyatta should not win it in 2009.

and rachael did more than point given. he never even faced older horses.


you can't not race half the year, when you do decide you want to beat up on leathal heat, allicansayis wow, hot n dusty all year long and then think it's all wiped out by one (once in a life time) race

[Greyfox]

We all discussed the fact that if Z won the BCC, that it would cause many to jump on her bandwagon for HOY simply because RA did not show. ......

Yes. I jumped on her bandwagon. I've bet against her at least six times now.
But Cripes when Zenyatta wins a BC Classic, I have to admit she is the Horse of the Year. Don't forget a lot of us posters gave her little chance before the race. We were wrong.

[pandy]

Rachel Alexandra was amazing, but her best race was in the Woodward where her toughest rivals were Macho Again and Bullsbay, a nice field, but not a strong one. Zenyatta's best race was in the Classic, the best field of horses assembled on this continent this year, where she beat the 2nd best horse in Europe, the Belmont winner, the Kentucky Derby winner, mutiple GR1 winner Gio Ponti, who will win turf horse of the year and won the Arlington Million, top class Einstein, Colonel John, a synthetic specialist, and a few other nice horses. That is why she will win Horse of the Year.

[Stillriledup]

Rachel Alexandra was amazing, but her best race was in the Woodward where her toughest rivals were Macho Again and Bullsbay, a nice field, but not a strong one. Zenyatta's best race was in the Classic, the best field of horses assembled on this continent this year, where she beat the 2nd best horse in Europe, the Belmont winner, the Kentucky Derby winner, mutiple GR1 winner Gio Ponti, who will win turf horse of the year and won the Arlington Million, top class Einstein, Colonel John, a synthetic specialist, and a few other nice horses. That is why she will win Horse of the Year.

It doesnt' matter that Rachel beat the Ky Derby winner while that Derby winner was still in top form and Zenyatta beat him when he was dull and on a surface he didn't like? As far as that Van Winkle goes, he had bad feet, and was training poorly in California not to mention he had no lasix. Neither of those horses you mention fired their best shot yesterday. Same thing with Z's Oaklawn race, the horse who was favored in there didn't fire her best shot on that day either. Zenyatta was rested, didn't race till almost June and was fresh and fit for this Classic.

These people didn't want a tired out horse in Nov, so they didnt' race till May 23rd and only had 4 cupcake starts going into the race, of course Z was going to fire an amazing shot.

[ghostyapper]

These people didn't want a tired out horse in Nov, so they didnt' race till May 23rd and only had 4 cupcake starts going into the race, of course Z was going to fire an amazing shot.

Then you must have cashed in when she won. According to many on these boards she had no shot.

[pandy]

It doesnt' matter that Rachel beat the Ky Derby winner while that Derby winner was still in top form and Zenyatta beat him when he was dull and on a surface he didn't like? As far as that Van Winkle goes, he had bad feet, and was training poorly in California not to mention he had no lasix. Neither of those horses you mention fired their best shot yesterday. Same thing with Z's Oaklawn race, the horse who was favored in there didn't fire her best shot on that day either. Zenyatta was rested, didn't race till almost June and was fresh and fit for this Classic.

These people didn't want a tired out horse in Nov, so they didnt' race till May 23rd and only had 4 cupcake starts going into the race, of course Z was going to fire an amazing shot.

You can't make excuses for all the horses after the fact. That's like saying that the Yankees got lucky because the Phillies didn't play as good as they are capable of. Doesn't matter, the Yankees beat the champs, now they are the champs. The fact is, the Classic was far and away the best field of horses that raced in N.A. this year, clearly better than the Preakness or Woodward fields.

[matthewsiv]

If you do not believe that Zenyetta should not be Horse Of the year,you are crazy.

She is unbeaten in 14 races,yes 14 races.

She is the first mare to win the Breeders Cup Classic.

She did not even break a sweat.

She has been campaigned brillantly by her owners and trainer.

Most trainers would have broken her down at a young age rather than letting her grow and mature.

She is the best filly since Ruffian and maybe better!

I am a Rachael fan,but she is not unbeaten and she can be horse of the year next year if she wins the Breeders Cup Classic and wins all her races next year.

[Rackon]

I gave the nod to RA over Z, simply because she beat a much more diverse group of horses in much more diverse places this year....As for Z, she proved her prowess alright, still, we probably will never know if she is just a monster "horse for course" (or surface) or if she could or couldn't beat any others on any other surface or place other than in Cali on her "surface".... One race doesn't make it imo..

They both "won" a spot in my memory bank of great ones.... A "Good Season" for fan interest this year...Enjoyed all the hype and such...:jump:

best,

Zenyatta was just as much of a monster at Oaklawn in 2008 as she was in CA, handily beating champion Indian Blessing ON THE DIRT in the Apple Blossom. She ran exactly the same kind of race she always does, hanging at the back of the pack and then blowing by her competitors in the stretch. The Apple Blossom was only, I think, her fourth start, and it was the race that convinced me Z was a monster in the making.

I honestly think Z could probably run competitively on most any surface, at most any track. Just because the connections chose to race her close to home in CA doesn't mean she couldn't have done as spectacularly at Churchill or Saratoga.

This takes nothing away from the terrific RA. After Curlin didn't handle the Pro-Ride last year, I completely understand the Jackson's decision to pass on this year's BC. Indeed, I have very mixed feelings about artificial surfaces myself.

However, the idea that Zenyatta is a lesser horse, or only a "horse for course" and couldn't race successfully outside CA or on anything but AS is incorrect. In fact, it's known she likes the Pro-Ride surface at SA much better than the poly at Delmar. And she loved the dirt in Hot SPrings, a surface many dirt runners either love (see Smarty Jones) or hate (see Hard Spun).

I also think the field in the BCC was as competitive and diverse as anything RA faced this season. It was just all in one race ;)

[Rackon]

Zenyatta was just as much of a monster at Oaklawn in 2008 as she was in CA, handily beating champion Indian Blessing ON THE DIRT in the Apple Blossom. She ran exactly the same kind of race she always does, hanging at the back of the pack and then blowing by her competitors in the stretch. The Apple Blossom was only, I think, her fourth start, and it was the race that convinced me Z was a monster in the making.

I honestly think Z could probably run competitively on most any surface, at most any track. Just because the connections chose to race her close to home in CA doesn't mean she couldn't have done as spectacularly at Churchill or Saratoga.

This takes nothing away from the terrific RA. After Curlin didn't handle the Pro-Ride last year, I completely understand the Jackson's decision to pass on this year's BC. Indeed, I have very mixed feelings about artificial surfaces myself.

However, the idea that Zenyatta is a lesser horse, or only a "horse for course" and couldn't race successfully outside CA or on anything but AS is incorrect. In fact, it's known she likes the Pro-Ride surface at SA much better than the poly at Delmar. And she loved the dirt in Hot SPrings, a surface many dirt runners either love (see Smarty Jones) or hate (see Hard Spun).

I also think the field in the BCC was as competitive and diverse as anything RA faced this season. It was just all in one race ;)

EEK, I meant to say...Zenyatta defeated Ginger Punch, not Indian Blessing..mea culpa. I should not be allowed to type on 2 housrs sleep.

[nijinski]

From 1949 to 1970 there were five ties.

Certainly wouldn't mind another , it's been a while.

[JohnGalt1]

I voted for Zenyatta because I believe closers that give fields huge leads and can win from the clouds deserves the slight nod for HOY considering the difficulty, traffic, etc.

And she did it 14 out of 14 times.

[Stillriledup]

You can't make excuses for all the horses after the fact. That's like saying that the Yankees got lucky because the Phillies didn't play as good as they are capable of. Doesn't matter, the Yankees beat the champs, now they are the champs. The fact is, the Classic was far and away the best field of horses that raced in N.A. this year, clearly better than the Preakness or Woodward fields.

What if you said it BEFORE the fact? What if i told you 5 minutes to post that MTB is no good and he isnt' the shell of the horse that Rachel had to beat. What then? Its not after the fact if i told you before the race.

[bisket]

i voted for ra. i just think a horse needs to race in more than 1 competitive race all year. although i'm afraid zen will probably get it. its a shame this is what the game has come to. horses can avoid running against each other, and show up for 1 race and get hoy. it is what the breeders cup has done to the game. i don't like it!!

[cj]

If you do not believe that Zenyetta should not be Horse Of the year,you are crazy.

She is unbeaten in 14 races,yes 14 races.

She is the first mare to win the Breeders Cup Classic.

She did not even break a sweat.

She has been campaigned brillantly by her owners and trainer.

Most trainers would have broken her down at a young age rather than letting her grow and mature.

She is the best filly since Ruffian and maybe better!

I am a Rachael fan,but she is not unbeaten and she can be horse of the year next year if she wins the Breeders Cup Classic and wins all her races next year.

Only five of those races count, and four of them were walkovers. Rachel was 8 for 8 this year, Zenyatta 5 for 5. That is what you compare, not the other 9 Zenyatta ran.

[Hanover1]

Only five of those races count, and four of them were walkovers. Rachel was 8 for 8 this year, Zenyatta 5 for 5. That is what you compare, not the other 9 Zenyatta ran.
This is exactly the response we expected if/when she won the BCC. As for who chose not to "come out and play", we saw that from the Z camp all year? Scratched 1 time when track came up muddy vs same crowd, yet RA tackled the boys in the mud, yes? I take nothing away from a fine mare, the best older mare I have seen in awhile, yet my numbers add up to RA as a tougher customer, who earned the award by sheer determination, more starts, and surfaces, ect...many on board use speculation to make the case for Z. The old "suppose" she ran here, there, ect....Wont fly Orville.....RA accomplished more, won more, beat males more than once, and was just 3. Lets not deny her her due and say she can "have it next year". I could live with a co-award, but would be dismayed if RA missed the call, as many horsemen would.

[BirdstoneFTW]

Only five of those races count, and four of them were walkovers. Rachel was 8 for 8 this year, Zenyatta 5 for 5. That is what you compare, not the other 9 Zenyatta ran.

:lol: I love how the other 9 races ran BEFORE 2009 "add" to the HOTY argument. Just because the Yankees won 26 previous championships didn't mean they would win their 27th this year. Those 26 championship teams have very little, if anything to do with the 2009 Yankees.

[statik27]

This year reminds me a lot of 2004. You had the super 3yo Smarty Jones dominate the spring in the TC. A horse that is arguably the most popular horse seen in years. Won the KY Derby and Preakness in dramatic fashion, first horse since Seattle Slew to win the KY Derby undefeated and then emulating the slew put in a brave performance in defeat at Belmont. Most people thought he was a forgone conclusion for HOTY.

But along came the 4 race wonder horse Ghostzapper, who won the BC classic in dramatic fashion. Who won HOY in 2004?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Had Zenyatta won the Ladies Classic instead, Rachel Alexandra would have been a slam dunk, but the more I think about it, Zenyatta should get the award this year.
Another thing to consider. Would Rachel Alexandra have won Saturday's race? I would have to say (though I've been wrong before). Too far, and plastic isn't something that helps her style.

[FenceBored]

This year reminds me a lot of 2004. You had the super 3yo Smarty Jones dominate the spring in the TC. A horse that is arguably the most popular horse seen in years. Won the KY Derby and Preakness in dramatic fashion, first horse since Seattle Slew to win the KY Derby undefeated and then emulating the slew put in a brave performance in defeat at Belmont. Most people thought he was a forgone conclusion for HOTY.

But along came the 4 race wonder horse Ghostzapper, who won the BC classic in dramatic fashion. Who won HOY in 2004?

I don't think that's completely accurate. Ghostzapper picked up where Smarty Jones left off. Smarty ran his last race in early June. Ghostzapper won the Tom Fool on July 4th with a time .25 seconds off the track record. Then he got a 128 Beyer in the Iselin. After that was the incredible duel with Saint Liam in the Woodward. Ghostzapper had laid the ground work for a claim with admirable performances. When he wired the field in the Classic on Stronach's Souped-up Strip (tm) setting a BC Classic stakes record, and a track record, that was the finishing touch on an impressive 2nd half of the year. It wasn't just one race.

('Yapper, that's as close as I'll come to a defense of Ghostzapper, so enjoy it. :))

[cj]

Another thing to consider. Would Rachel Alexandra have won Saturday's race? I would have to say (though I've been wrong before). Too far, and plastic isn't something that helps her style.

Well no kidding. Why would he ship to run there on a surface she most likely wouldn't like? Like Jackson or not, he is no dummy.

[delayjf]

Curious, does anyone thing RA would have won the Woodward if Z had run in that race as well?

[how cliche]

This debate is very interesting to me. There's subtext beneath each argument. It's compelling.


Dirt vs. All Weather.

Classic vs. Shorter.

East vs. West.

Presser vs. Closer.

Precocity vs. Maturity.

Jackson vs. Moss.

Risk vs. Reward.

Thought vs. Emotion.

[cj]

Curious, does anyone thing RA would have won the Woodward if Z had run in that race as well?

Impossible to say. With her in the field, Borel probably rides a different race.

[ghostyapper]

Curious, does anyone thing RA would have won the Woodward if Z had run in that race as well?

I don't think there's any chance she would hold off zenyatta after the pace pressure she faced. I think with a normal pace it would be very close at 9 furlongs. At 10 furlongs I'd give rachel no shot.

[tucker6]

I don't think there's any chance she would hold off zenyatta after the pace pressure she faced. I think with a normal pace it would be very close at 9 furlongs. At 10 furlongs I'd give rachel no shot.
Given the fact that Zenyatta ducked dirt this year, it's obvious that Moss/Sherriffs think she would perform poorly on it. Don't you think?

[tzipi]

Well we will never know. Anyway I think these polls should be done after time not AFTER a big race.
What would poll have said after Rach's last win? I wonder considering the posts at the time. Polls like this are timely hype. How about co-winners! Both deserve it! :)

[tzipi]

Given the fact that Zenyatta ducked dirt this year, it's obvious that Moss/Sherriffs think she would perform poorly on it. Don't you think?


OK Moss and Jackson must be laughing at these things.
ZENYATTA "DUCKED" DIRT
RACH "DUCKED" THE NERF TRACK
Who cares two different surfaces. Moss and Jackson know what their horses like. These tracks are NOT the same ride.


If BC was at BELMONT,prob Zenyattas people do not show up. Let's just call them co-winners so we can stop taking away from these two now.

[tucker6]

OK Moss and Jackson must be laughing at these things.
ZENYATTA "DUCKED" DIRT
RACH "DUCKED" THE NERF TRACK
Who cares two different surfaces. Moss and Jackson know what their horses like. These tracks are NOT the same ride.


If BC was at BELMONT,prob Zenyattas people do not show up. Let's just call them co-winners so we can stop taking away from these two now.
Okay, as long as we realize I was being heavily tongue-in-cheek. ;)

[ghostyapper]

Okay, as long as we realize I was being heavily tongue-in-cheek. ;)

You wan tongue and cheek? Since zenyatta already beat the defending champ on dirt, she had "nothing left to prove" so obviously they weren't ducking

Or does the nothing left to prove off 1 performance only work with rachel? ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

You wan tongue and cheek? Since zenyatta already beat the defending champ on dirt, she had "nothing left to prove" so obviously they weren't duckingThat happened in 2008, correct? It doesn't apply to 2009.

[Stillriledup]

How could a filly slam dunk all competition including the classic , be 14 for 14 , and not take the award hands down ? HOY is a slam dunk as well .

She's not 14 for 14, she's 5 for 5.

[cj]

She's not 14 for 14, she's 5 for 5.

It is simply amazing how many don't seem to get this fact, and I'm leaving out the fact the first four were fairly weak races on the national scene.

[Stillriledup]

It is simply amazing how many don't seem to get this fact, and I'm leaving out the fact the first four were fairly weak races on the national scene.

And one of those wins was by a desperate nose with a slow beyer fig vs an allowance horse who no one has ever heard of.

People are acting like she's 14 for 14 THIS YEAR and all those wins should go to strengthen her case for HOY.

She only ran 5 times people, she ran 4 of those races vs 5 and 6 horse fields of tomato cans.

[Hanover1]

It is simply amazing how many don't seem to get this fact, and I'm leaving out the fact the first four were fairly weak races on the national scene.
And lets not forget she scratched when track came up muddy, and RA pressed forward, with weatherman watching...........

[46zilzal]

That happened in 2008, correct? It doesn't apply to 2009.
Tell that to the crowd who voted Native Dancer Horse of the year in 1954 off THREE races, only one of which, The Metropolitan Mile, was of any significance and he raced twice in May and once in August

[PaceAdvantage]

I wonder how this poll would look had I come on here right after the BC and said I love Zenyatta and think she should be HOY...:lol:

I betcha it would be the exact opposite...lots of retreads out there...:lol: :lol:

(I'm only half-serious with this post...)

[cj]

Tell that to the crowd who voted Native Dancer Horse of the year in 1954 off THREE races, only one of which, The Metropolitan Mile, was of any significance and he raced twice in May and once in August

All of those people are probably dead.

[46zilzal]

All of those people are probably dead.
Their way of thinking is however alive and well.

[cj]

Their way of thinking is however alive and well.

Highly unlikely. For one, there was no BC back then. Another, the Met was a huge race.

[Speed Figure]

Only five of those races count, and four of them were walkovers. Rachel was 8 for 8 this year, Zenyatta 5 for 5. That is what you compare, not the other 9 Zenyatta ran.
You make it sound like Rachel has had no walkovers. Before the Preakness her last 4 odds were 0.30, 0.10, 0.30,0.40. Don't forget about that big 3 horse field she beat.

[cj]

You make it sound like Rachel has had no walkovers. Before the Preakness her last 4 odds were 0.30, 0.10, 0.30,0.40. Don't forget about that big 3 horse field she beat.

I understand that, but they were in top races where she took on challenges no filly has faced. Zenyatta never left the state and raced the same lousy horses time after time. That is what I meant by walkover. If Zenyatta had went anywhere and tried anything different, I wouldn't say that.

[WinterTriangle]

I'll give my usual response. As the saying goes, one race doesn't mean anything. For me, either does one year.

If it's about one year, give to to.......whoever. I don't care.

But, Zenyatta retires at the end of 5 years old. Going on 6.
Let's compare at the end of Rachel's, or anyone else's, 5th year. Or whenever they retire.

THEN, we have resumes to compare. Lifetime accomplishments, how many multiple G1s they beat, etc.

HOY is a small slice of a career, represents only one year in a horse's career.

[Valuist]

Horse of the day? That was Zenyatta
Horse of the year? Rachel Alexandra

It SHOULD be about the resume for the full year, but I'm sure the voters will be caught up in the heat of the moment and vote for Zenyatta. People have very short memories.

[Stillriledup]

Horse of the day? That was Zenyatta
Horse of the year? Rachel Alexandra

It SHOULD be about the resume for the full year, but I'm sure the voters will be caught up in the heat of the moment and vote for Zenyatta. People have very short memories.

Exactly. The most important thing is to be fair to both horses and their connections. Emotion can't play a part in this, we have to look at the cold hard facts before deciding on the worthy winner. There are 365 days in one year and all those days should be equal. By that i mean that races in Nov and December shouldn't count more than races in Jan and Feb. When 2009 voting takes place, some of these accomplishments will almost be 1 year away, we have to hold all these performances in context and not get carried away on emotion.

If you get carried away on emotion, there is a chance you can make a mistake and pick the wrong horse. If you just look at facts and accomplishments, there's a much better chance justice will be served in the end.

[CBedo]

I'm going to make this simplistic and logical (so my little brain can handle it).

Point 1) American racing is dirt racing.
Point 2) This is an American HOY vote.

Now it's simple, Rachel, no question!

[pandy]

It's true that the whole year should be evaluated but the fact that Zenyatta won the Classic on BC day and Rachel's biggest win was the Woodward in August is going to weight heavily with voters. The fields on BC day are the best of the year and the Classic was far and away the best field of horses assembled in N.A. this year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl, Rachel won a playoff game. That's why I'll be very surprised if Zenyatta doesn't win HOY.

[FenceBored]

It's true that the whole year should be evaluated but the fact that Zenyatta won the Classic on BC day and Rachel's biggest win was the Woodward in August is going to weight heavily with voters. The fields on BC day are the best of the year and the Classic was far and away the best field of horses assembled in N.A. this year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl, Rachel won a playoff game. That's why I'll be very surprised if Zenyatta doesn't win HOY.

You say the whole year should be evaluated, and then you only compare 1 race against 1 race. Way to go. :ThmbUp:

[fmolf]

You say the whole year should be evaluated, and then you only compare 1 race against 1 race. Way to go. :ThmbUp:
rachel ...won at more tracks against better overall fields in my opinion.The second place horse in the classic would not even have run if the classic were on dirt.tvg is doing their part for Zenyatta they are showing the damn classic 10 times a day for crying out loud!

[Stillriledup]

It's true that the whole year should be evaluated but the fact that Zenyatta won the Classic on BC day and Rachel's biggest win was the Woodward in August is going to weight heavily with voters. The fields on BC day are the best of the year and the Classic was far and away the best field of horses assembled in N.A. this year. Zenyatta won the Super Bowl, Rachel won a playoff game. That's why I'll be very surprised if Zenyatta doesn't win HOY.

You say the fields on BC day are the best. What does other fields of competition have to do with Z or RA? I mean, are you saying that Z should get extra brownie points because Goldikova and Conduit also happend to race at the same track on the same day?

[cmoore]

Thirty years from now we'll be saying. Who was the last Mare to win the Classic..That's right, it was Zenyatta..How did she not win the HOY that year? You tell me..

I vote for ZENYATTA!!!!!

[Steve R]

She ran in one unrestricted race..got eight pounds, and was life or death to beat Macho Again... Zenyatta did the same, but won the biggest race of the year..
Zenyatta got three pounds from Gio Ponti, so maybe he was better.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thirty years from now we'll be saying. Who was the last Mare to win the Classic..That's right, it was Zenyatta..How did she not win the HOY that year? You tell me..

I vote for ZENYATTA!!!!!On a similar note, we could think back to the last THREE-YEAR-OLD filly to win not only a triple crown race, but two Grade 1s against 3yo Males PLUS a Grade 1 against older MALES.

Do you think that will happen again in the next 30 years?

[DeanT]

Fascinating voting. There are a lot of good horseplayers on both sides.

[Nitro]

An interesting question, but after seeing many a great horse over the last 40 odd years I could really care less which of these 2 horses wins horse of the year. Comparing the type of races each has won based on distance, competition, racing surfaces and beaten lengths still won’t satisfy our need to know which was the superior animal. They both proved certain things this year about their exceptional quality. As some have already mentioned, since they never faced each other we’ll never actually know which one would have been victorious over the other.

However, I will say that based on what I’ve seen of both horses, I believe that at the Classic distance of 1 ¼ miles (on any surface) with the type of competition that showed up in the BC Classic that Zanyetta would have still been the victor. I also believe that RA’s connections were not only concerned with the artificial surface. They were probably just as concerned with the distance, particularly when facing older GR1 winners. I have funny suspicion that had RA run and lost most would have contributed that loss to the surface alone and not the distance. I also believe that both camps played it very smart with their horses this year and always had their best interests in mind. However, Zanyetta’s group did take on the biggest risk of losing when attempting to win the BC Classic.

If we’re going to judge this game the way we view other sports, then a true Champion wins the Championship. I believe the original concept of the BC was to give our game the same exposure, excitement and finality each year that all other major sports have. Some may argue that a BC Champion is not Horse of the Year. Maybe an argument should be made about how the idea of H of the Y is now an out dated concept. Who knows, but horse racing fans will continue to argue these points till the cows come home. I don’t know about anyone else here, but when I’m questioned about how I did today, it’s never about the horses. It’s always about the money in my pocket. Somewhere along the line you have to decide whether you’re a fan or a player.

[PaceAdvantage]

The single greatest fallacy of 2009 is that Rachel Alexandra has somehow proven herself to be distance challenged against Grade 1 horses.

Nobody with such an opinion (at least on this board), has as of yet sufficiently made their case in this regard.

Nitro, perhaps you can be the next to try.

If Rachel were to engage in a suicidal pace duel up front, then yeah, she's probably not going to get 10 furlongs. But to then use this as proof of her being "distance challenged"...well, that's simply absurd.

Are all pace pressers / front-runners inherently distance challenged?

Many thought Holy Bull was distance challenged based on breeding, but then he won the Travers despite serious early pace pressure from the Lukas rabbit...

[FenceBored]

If we’re going to judge this game the way we view other sports, then a true Champion wins the Championship. I believe the original concept of the BC was to give our game the same exposure, excitement and finality each year that all other major sports have. Some may argue that a BC Champion is not Horse of the Year. Maybe an argument should be made about how the idea of H of the Y is now an out dated concept. Who knows, but horse racing fans will continue to argue these points till the cows come home. I don’t know about anyone else here, but when I’m questioned about how I did today, it’s never about the horses. It’s always about the money in my pocket. Somewhere along the line you have to decide whether you’re a fan or a player.

Arcangues should have been HOY for '93! :jump::jump::jump:

[Judge Gallivan]

Zenyatta got three pounds from Gio Ponti, so maybe he was better.

On Jul/04 at Sandown in the Eclipse (a 10-furlong race) Sea The Stars got 11 pounds from Condiut and beat him by only 5 1/2 lengths. Maybe Conduit was better (by 5 1/2 lenghts).

On Oct/04 at Longchamp in the Arc (a 12-furlong race) Sea The Stars got 8 pounds from Conduit and beat him by only 2 1/2 lengths. Maybe Conduit was better (by 5 1/2 lengths) again.

So if 3 pounds Zenyatta received from Gio Ponti were crucial in your mind how come 11 and 8 pounds Sea The Stars received from Conduit weren't?

Or do you believe that Conduit was better horse than Sea The Stars? If you don't I'd like to read why not, and if you do, well, then no more words are needed.

[FenceBored]

On Jul/04 at Sandown in the Eclipse (a 10-furlong race) Sea The Stars got 11 pounds from Condiut and beat him by only 5 1/2 lengths. Maybe Conduit was better (by 5 1/2 lenghts).

On Oct/04 at Longchamp in the Arc (a 12-furlong race) Sea The Stars got 8 pounds from Conduit and beat him by only 2 1/2 lengths. Maybe Conduit was better (by 5 1/2 lengths) again.

So if 3 pounds Zenyatta received from Gio Ponti were crucial in your mind how come 11 and 8 pounds Sea The Stars received from Conduit weren't?

Or do you believe that Conduit was better horse than Sea The Stars? If you don't I'd like to read why not, and if you do, well, then no more words are needed.

You do realize you're taking him to task for sharing your opinion, don't you?

[Judge Gallivan]

You do realize you're taking him to task for sharing your opinion, don't you?


No. It's not my opinion. It's his selective opinion.

When it comes to Zenyatta and Gio Ponti he believes in this ridiciulous 150 years old theory that 1 pound is worth 1 length at 10f.

But when it comes to Sea The Stars and Conduit he doesn't believe it, I guess.

Very scientific...

[FenceBored]

No. It's not my opinion. It's his selective opinion.

When it comes to Zenyatta and Gio Ponti he believes in this ridiciulous 150 years old theory that 1 pound is worth 1 length at 10f.

But when it comes to Sea The Stars and Conduit he doesn't believe it, I guess.

Very scientific...

Sigh, let's go through the entire exchange, shall we?

Fingal started by claiming that Jess Jackson played prevent defense:As Trevor said it- " This is UNBELIVABLE !!! "
The Breeder's Cup was set up to crown champions, not reward those like JJ that played a prevent defense.
Fantastic Dan counters with the "3 vs. males" rejoinder.Winning eight races (3 vs. males) on seven different tracks over the course of a campaign is prevent defense? :lol: :lol:

Zenyatta stayed in CA all year on her speciality surface that 3/4 horses can't handle and won five races, only one vs. males.

It's not close.
EsraBrooks fires back with "yeah, but barely survived in the Woodward while getting 8lbs." She ran in one unrestricted race..got eight pounds, and was life or death to beat Macho Again... Zenyatta did the same, but won the biggest race of the year..
Steve R points out that "if you're going to say that Macho Again is a better horse, because Rachel got 8 pounds, then Gio Ponti must be a better horse than Zenyatta, because he gave her 3lbs. and only lost by a length." Meaning, "don't be an idiot and get hung up on the weight allowances."
Zenyatta got three pounds from Gio Ponti, so maybe he was better.
You come in and make the exact same point, but this time directed at Steve R.On Jul/04 at Sandown in the Eclipse (a 10-furlong race) Sea The Stars got 11 pounds from Condiut and beat him by only 5 1/2 lengths. Maybe Conduit was better (by 5 1/2 lenghts).

On Oct/04 at Longchamp in the Arc (a 12-furlong race) Sea The Stars got 8 pounds from Conduit and beat him by only 2 1/2 lengths. Maybe Conduit was better (by 5 1/2 lengths) again.

So if 3 pounds Zenyatta received from Gio Ponti were crucial in your mind how come 11 and 8 pounds Sea The Stars received from Conduit weren't?

Or do you believe that Conduit was better horse than Sea The Stars? If you don't I'd like to read why not, and if you do, well, then no more words are needed.
But, Steve R was clearly NOT saying that the 3 pounds Gio Ponti spotted Zenyatta were crucial. He was saying that those 3 pounds, and the 8 pounds Rachel received, weren't an inappropriate factor, and that people shouldn't obsess about them. Which, as I read it, was your point as well.

[Judge Gallivan]

A few days ago in the thread 'Beyer does it again' - http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63551 - he quoted this theory that 1 pound is worth 1 length at 10 furlongs.

I pointed out that the theory is ridiculous and showed a few reasons why and even gave a better approximation from Ragozin / Thorograph. He never answered those points.

Today he again said that Gio Ponti ran a better race because Zenyatta received 3 pounds and I just called him on it again. That's all.

[FenceBored]

A few days ago in the thread 'Beyer does it again' - http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63551 - he quoted this theory that 1 pound is worth 1 length at 10 furlongs.

I pointed out that the theory is ridiculous and showed a few reasons why and even gave a better approximation from Ragozin / Thorograph. He never answered those points.

Today he again said that Gio Ponti ran a better race because Zenyatta received 3 pounds and I just called him on it again. That's all.

Fine, but that's not really the point of what he was saying here, was it?

And anyway, Conduit is the better horse. The weight assignments were part of a conspiracy of racing secretaries and bookmakers to make Sea the Stars look good. I thought everybody knew that.

[Judge Gallivan]

Fine, but that's not really the point of what he was saying here, was it?

And anyway, Conduit is the better horse. The weight assignments were part of a conspiracy of racing secretaries and bookmakers to make Sea the Stars look good. I thought everybody knew that.


And yet Sea The Stars is apparently favored for Cartier awards:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/53459/sea-the-stars-favored-for-cartier-awards

I guess Steve will set them straight...