Does Sea The Stars beat Zenyatta today?

[tzipi]

Sorry,I had to. :D More heated discussions.

I think STS would've had to run his BUTT OFF today to beat Zen.

[statik27]

Sorry,I had to. :D More heated discussions.

I think STS would've had to run his BUTT OFF today to beat Zen.

Sea the Stars would have had to run his butt off just to beat Presious Passion.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

The STS formlines look ordinary after today, horses like Rip Van Winkle and Conduit (even when winning) not looking great

Zenyatta is obviously the best horse on the entire planet right now

[GMB@BP]

The STS formlines look ordinary after today, horses like Rip Van Winkle and Conduit (even when winning) not looking great

Zenyatta is obviously the best horse on the entire planet right now

I think it will be very interesting to see the weightings that come out at the end of the year, last year they had Zenyatta out of the top 5 horses racing...doubt they do that again this year

[nearco]

He would have had his work cut out for him to beat her today. She was amazing.
In fairness though, she was on her home turf, on her preferred surface on her 5th start of the season. He would have been on his 8th start, on a new surface that we have no idea whether he would handle or not, and a transatlantic plane ride after some tough races.
If they were to meet next June over 12f at the Curragh, who would you consider favorite?
They are both amazing horses, pity they never got to race against each other, I think but we can appreciate them both.

[statik27]

12f at the Curragh? Now that would be worth a trip to Ireland ha ha.

[gm10]

I agree with the earlier post that STS's form does not look too well after today. Rip VW, Delegator, Da Re Mi, Masercraftsmen ... nowhere. Conduit won, but only just, against a horse who I really don't rate (Presious).

[CincyHorseplayer]

I agree with the earlier post that STS's form does not look too well after today. Rip VW, Delegator, Da Re Mi, Masercraftsmen ... nowhere. Conduit won, but only just, against a horse who I really don't rate (Presious).

You're talking non turf races dominantly though GM.Most posters are unable to differentiate between the concepts they think embodies a champion and the common sense of seeing that different surfaces lead to different results.

When I look back at 2009 in the near and distant future I'll always remember being able to watch 3 very great horses on 3 different surfaces have dominant performances without any conflict of who is better than who.What a great year to be a player man!!!

[Robert Fischer]

Sorry,I had to. :D More heated discussions.

I think STS would've had to run his BUTT OFF today to beat Zen.

Sure. If Sea the Stars and Rachel Alexandra had entered, I think we would have to look at the race in historical context among the best classic distance races. Impossible to know who would have won, but with Zenyatta having actually run and producing a top class effort, I think we have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

these last two years we learned the truth about synthetic racing - which is that it has the potential of bringing together higher quality fields. Dubai World Cup has picked up the need we have developed for an annual high stakes classic distance synthetic race, and the Breeders Cup will continue to rotate. It seems like the game is better for it. Great couple of years and something positive for the sport finally.

What a race from Zenyatta. Overall a good day for racing.:ThmbUp:

[Humph]

On all known European form , Twice Over is inferior to Sea The Stars by a little way - Henry Cecil's runner was beaten by no fewer than 17 lengths when the two met in the Eclipse at Sandown ( Conduit was another also-ran in this and just couldn't live with John Oxx's runner ) . Also , it may be unwise to use Aidan O'Brien's runners' performances over the weekend as a yardstick because , for what ever reason , one or two have , without doubt , not shown us what they're capable of - Rip Van Winkle is one such case ,imo.

The above said , I'm not for one minute taking anything away from Zenyatta - on the day she was brilliant . Nor am I saying for certain that STS would have beaten her in the Classic - far from it . But you're kidding yourself if you want to cherry-pick one or two runners performances over the weekend just to have something to use as a stick with which to beat Sea The Stars ,imo .

[UK View]

The STS formlines look ordinary after today, horses like Rip Van Winkle and Conduit (even when winning) not looking great

Zenyatta is obviously the best horse on the entire planet right now


Zenyatta's performance was sensational last night and I'm glad the gamble to run in the Classic paid off for connections. She certainly proved herself a great horse. If she had gone for the softer option in the Ladies Classic the doubters would not have been silenced.

However I must take issue with the fact that Sea The Stars' formlines look ordinary. To base his form on last night's performances is ludicrous.

I think what it does show is what a master trainer J. Oxx is to keep STS at his peak every month from May to October!! Something which couldn't be said about Delegator, Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman (who all were beaten by him in the 2000 Guineas in May).

If you want to look at his formlines then you need to look more in depth than a couple of below par shows from horses last night.

From the horses that have finished behind him this season we have....

Delegator - 2nd in the G1 St James Palace (btn by Mastercraftsman) and Won the G2 Celebration Mile

Rip Van Winkle - 4th in the G1 Derby, 2nd in the G1 Eclipse, Won the G1 Sussex Stakes (beating dual G1 winner Paco Boy and dual G1 winner Ghaanati), and Won the G1 QEII (beating G1 winner Aqlaam).

Mastercraftsman - Won the G1 St James Palace Stakes.

Finjaan - Finished 9th in the 2000 Guineas then Won the G2 Betfair Cup on his next start.

Ouqba - Finished 11th in the 2000 Guineas then Won the G3 Jersey Stakes on his next start.

Lord Shanakill - Finished 12th in the 2000 Guineas then finished 3rd in the G1 St James Palace (behind Mastercraftsman and Delegator), then Won the G1 Prix Jean Prat

Fame And Glory - 2nd to STS in the Derby, then Won the G1 Irish Derby by 5 lengths.

Black Bear Island - Finished 13 lengths behind STS in the Derby, 2nd in the G1 Secretariat Stakes.

Conduit - 3rd in the Eclipse, then Won the G1 King George and Queen Elizabeth Stakes, 4th in the G1 Arc de Triomphe, Won the G1 Breeders Cup Turf.

Steele Tango - 5th at 100/1 in the Eclipse, then last in the Arc at 500/1 but still managed to win the G3 Darley Stakes on his final start!!

Jukebox Jury - 6th in the Eclipse, then Won the G3 Rose Of Lancaster Stakes, then Won the G2 Grand Prix De Deauville then Won the G1 Preis Von Europa, then 2nd in the G1 Canadian International.

Twice Over - 7th in the Eclipse (btn 17 1/2 lengths), then Won the G1 Champion Stakes and 3rd in the G1 Breeders Cup Classic.

And in his final start (Arc) he beat 8 previous G1 Winners!!

Sorry but those formlines DO NOT look ordinary.

[Zman179]

Zenyatta is obviously the best horse on the entire planet right now

Talk about a subjective opinion. Right now, between Rachel Alexandra, Sea the Stars and Zenyatta, there is no standout best horse in the world. All three are great.

[depalma113]

Sure. If Sea the Stars and Rachel Alexandra had entered, I think we would have to look at the race in historical context among the best classic distance races. Impossible to know who would have won, but with Zenyatta having actually run and producing a top class effort, I think we have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

these last two years we learned the truth about synthetic racing - which is that it has the potential of bringing together higher quality fields. Dubai World Cup has picked up the need we have developed for an annual high stakes classic distance synthetic race, and the Breeders Cup will continue to rotate. It seems like the game is better for it. Great couple of years and something positive for the sport finally.

What a race from Zenyatta. Overall a good day for racing.:ThmbUp:

Positive? By that do you mean just eliminate dirt racing all together?

Rachel would have been an easy toss in that race. Two year's of Breeder's Cup route races on synthetic and only three dirt horses could hit the board and none won.

This by no means is a positive.

[depalma113]

Talk about a subjective opinion. Right now, between Rachel Alexandra, Sea the Stars and Zenyatta, there is no standout best horse in the world. All three are great.

You're crazy. She is the greatest horse that has ever lived!

[Cadillakin]

Positive? By that do you mean just eliminate dirt racing all together?

Rachel would have been an easy toss in that race. Two year's of Breeder's Cup route races on synthetic and only three dirt horses could hit the board and none won.

This by no means is a positive.
I think that just means the Eastern Horses running on dirt were crappy these last couple of years. Curlin was certainly of high class, and with a campaign that kept him fresher, perhaps he would have won.. The good sprinter, Fabulous Strike, got off poorly and raced bottled-up, much like Zensational did this year. Fatal Bullet ran a winning race, but got beat by the outstanding Midnight Lute... Other than those, I don't recall any formidable Easterners in these last two years failing over the synthetic.

As far as I'm concerned, most of the complaints are just sour grapes from Eastern crybabies and poor handicappers who can't adjust to the different handicapping model. Yes, some horses of great brilliance can be disadvantaged over synthetic.. but otherwise, most horses maintain their class on each surface..

Just addressing the high class females of this year and last.. Rachel and Zenyatta handle both surfaces well. Right? Indian Blessing was a Grade 1 winner on both coasts, on both surfaces and this years filly sprint winner, Informed Decision is 3 for 5 on the main track.. with one of her dirt track losses being in a route race and the other off a layoff.. so she handles both surfaces too. She won because she was the best horse..not because of the surface. Right?

If you're not old enough to know it.. Eastern horses have always had problems shipping West. Champions Groovy, Plugged Nickel and countless other high class sprinters got buried out West when they tried to keep up with the Western sprinters on the old dirt tracks. Even the Hall of Famer Seattle Slew got his head handed to him when facing JO Tobin over the glib Hollywood Park dirt surface.. In fact, it was rare that a front-running type of any sort from the East could do well over the Western tracks after training over the sandier surfaces prevalent in the East. So, this whining about Eastern horses not doing well in the West is nothing new.. Now, "the whiners" just use different excuses.. synthetics.. Before it was that our Western tracks were like pavement..

The Euros fly thousands of miles to a completely different environment and they succeed, but the Eastern horses can't adjust? Why is that?

[cj]

Yes, some horses of great brilliance can be disadvantaged over synthetic.. but otherwise, most horses maintain their class on each surface..



This is simply not true. Some do, some don't, but certainly not most. Here is a list of horses that have run much better on dirt or turf than synthetics. I'm not sure how you define "class", but I'll define it is as winning at the same level, or at least running reasonably close to form on another surface:

This year's BC:
Father Time
Mastery
Devil May Care
Sara Louise
Seventh Street
Careless Jewel
Rainbow View
D'Funnybone
Bullsbay
Pyro
Mine That Bird
Summer Bird
Rip Van Winkle
Girolamo
Regal Ransom
(and Quality Road, a horse smart enough to refuse to run on the stuff!)

Last year's BC:

Indian Blessing
Zatfig
Hysterical Lady
Ginger Punch
Sixties Icon
Pyro
Munnings
Fabulous Strike
Curlin
Casino Drive

A few very good horses of the past with an obvious surface preference:

Cigar
Bayakoa
Charasmatic
Daylami
Pleasant Tap
Rubiano
Gourmet Girl
Kitten's Joy
Mineshaft
Riboletta

There are certainly horses that handle different surfaces, but it is hardly most. Even among those that do there it is usually pretty easy to see preference of one over another. In a game decided by inches, to pretend the surface isn't a big factor is pretty silly.

[Robert Fischer]

Better quality horses. Realizing the dream to bring together the best horses regardess of surface. A better handicapping experience for the serious horseplayer with better returns and an increased skill level to reward the serious player. I don't think enough can be said about the revitalizing 2008 Breeders Cup with the ultra-competitive Grade1+ Classic on the track, and the guilty-to-good-to-be-true prices on the tote. And Zenyatta, what a good girl she is! Oh what a beautiful performance that was. I know my 8 year old daughter was clapping and cheering as she made her move with giant strides to pass a Gio Ponti who's own race was in most Classic's a winning one. I just can't think of anything more positive to the game in recent history.

Obviously still enjoying the weekend in a bit of an afterglow excuse me. :ThmbUp:

Positive? By that do you mean just eliminate dirt racing all together?

Rachel would have been an easy toss in that race. Two year's of Breeder's Cup route races on synthetic and only three dirt horses could hit the board and none won.

This by no means is a positive.

[toussaud]

if you still think sea the stars would have given big z a run for her money in the classic, you aren't paying close enough attention

[Moyers Pond]

I think Zenyatta should be HOY, but I don't think she is anywhere near Sea The Stars. But you really can't compare them because Sea The Stars is a grass monster.

The synthetic plays similar to grass but it is not the same.

For me though Sea The Stars is the most talented I have seen in decades.

Remember, he made Conduit look very ordinary, and Conduit won the Turf yesterday.

[cwwash]

I think even if you look at the final time that it would have been very hard for any horse on the planet to have won.

[Cadillakin]

This is simply not true. Some do, some don't, but certainly not most. Here is a list of horses that have run much better on dirt or turf than synthetics. I'm not sure how you define "class", but I'll define it is as winning at the same level, or at least running reasonably close to form on another surface:

This year's BC:
Father Time
Mastery
Devil May Care
Sara Louise
Seventh Street
Careless Jewel
Rainbow View
D'Funnybone
Bullsbay
Pyro
Mine That Bird
Summer Bird
Rip Van Winkle
Girolamo
Regal Ransom
(and Quality Road, a horse smart enough to refuse to run on the stuff!)

Last year's BC:

Indian Blessing
Zatfig
Hysterical Lady
Ginger Punch
Sixties Icon
Pyro
Munnings
Fabulous Strike
Curlin
Casino Drive

A few very good horses of the past with an obvious surface preference:

Cigar
Bayakoa
Charasmatic
Daylami
Pleasant Tap
Rubiano
Gourmet Girl
Kitten's Joy
Mineshaft
Riboletta

There are certainly horses that handle different surfaces, but it is hardly most. Even among those that do there it is usually pretty easy to see preference of one over another. In a game decided by inches, to pretend the surface isn't a big factor is pretty silly.
All horses change somewhat from one surface to another.. As a handicapper, you should know that.. Going from one synthetic to another synthetic, or one dirt track to another, causes some changes in the bio-mechanics. More subtle perhaps but no horse does equally well on every surfaces. If you recall, Calvin Borel insisted Rachel did not like Pimlico, so he rated her win even higher than the rest of us... Some horses do better in certain weather conditions and falter in class if the environment is not to their liking..

And as I pointed out in another thread, this has ALWAYS been an issue when horses switch environment and surface. If I had the inclination, I could give you a thousand examples of Western horses that couldn't run on the deeper sandy (dirt) surfaces in the East, and another thousand examples of Eastern horses that couldn't act over the faster Western (dirt) surfaces..

It's the same with all athletes. Most players - human and equine do their best over their home surface. Home team advantage. Heard of it? Their bodies, muscling and skills become attuned to the particularities of their environment...

So, this whining about synthetics is nothing new to me.. I've heard it all before.. just in a slightly different form.

[UK View]

if you still think sea the stars would have given big z a run for her money in the classic, you aren't paying close enough attention

Would you care to elaborate on this further? In what way wouldn't he have given her a run for her money?

[toussaud]

Would you care to elaborate on this further? In what way wouldn't he have given her a run for her money?


what performance by rip van winkle, or mastercraftsman or rainbow view or fleeting spirit showed you that a top class turf horse over there could compete with socal home bias?

raven's pass had a distinct breeding advantage so did henry. turf does not necessariily translate to that pooh out there.

they are world class horses. just not world class pro ride horses.people here that and think "you are saying sea the stars isn't good enough! you see what he did over there? he's the best horse in decades"

are missing the piont. if the pro ride showed you anything, good enough doesn't mean squat. outside zenyatta, ther isn't one "dirt champion" that would ahve won a race on a real dirt surface.

the only question you have to ask yourself is who takes to the pro ride the best.

sea the stars is a once in a life time horse. as long as he's on turf.